The Constitutional Crisis in Minneapolis

Summary

Hillsdale Dialogues — "The Constitutional Crisis in Minneapolis"

Podcast: Hillsdale Dialogues
Host: Hugh Hewitt
Guest: Dr. Larry P. Arnn, President of Hillsdale College
Release Date: February 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of the Hillsdale Dialogues features host Hugh Hewitt and Hillsdale College President Dr. Larry Arnn discussing global and national political crises, with a particular focus on recent turmoil in Minneapolis—described as a "constitutional crisis." The discussion moves from international affairs (notably Iran, Greenland, and China) to American constitutional principles, before deeply examining the unprecedented challenges posed by state actions in Minnesota, immigration policy, and the constitutional theory of nullification. The tone is thoughtful, occasionally indignant, and often historical, foregrounding both classical reasoning and contemporary urgency.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. International Overview: Iran's Massacre and the Modern Surveillance State

[00:30–10:15]

• Hewitt opens by likening the massacre in Iran to historic atrocities:
  • "The largest massacre since Babi Yar in 1941..." (00:30)
• Dr. Arnn contextualizes the regime’s brutality and suppression, comparing it to totalitarian regimes:
  • "There's apparently a great pent up energy for reform and they use brutal techniques to suppress it ... it's a terrorist regime..." (01:23)
• The evolution from ancient to modern tyranny:
  • Dr. Arnn distinguishes Iran’s theocratic regime: scientific surveillance, religious claims to absolute authority, and modern totalitarian tools:
    • "Modern tyranny has a twist ... scientific surveillance ... that's why we invented the name totalitarianism. They can watch everything now..." (04:09)
    • "Add in this pernicious understanding of the relation between religion and politics and you get comprehensive despotism." (05:35)
• U.S. response—President’s ambiguous approach:
  • Discussing why ambiguity is a strategic tool and recounting Trump’s surprising moves in Venezuela as a template for possible action on Iran.
    • "He's a negotiator ... leaves a lot of ambiguity ... these guys in Iran have got to be worried." (06:48)
• Restraint vs. regime change:
  • Dr. Arnn argues the aim is to "constrain" adversaries, not fix or transform them:
    • "He doesn't want to rule them ... he wants them to behave themselves ... he uses tools that place them in a bind and constrain their actions." (09:20)

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2. The Geopolitics of Greenland

[12:58–18:17]

• Greenland’s strategic significance:
  • Hewitt prompts the history of submarine warfare and the geography's importance.
    • Dr. Arnn: "Greenland is strategically important ... every time there's ... in modern conditions more important ... our route to Europe and Europe's route to us." (13:49)
  • U.S. seeking permanent military and legal rights:
    • "One thing he's asking for is that they become permanent ... that we have a kind of semi sovereignty." (14:54)
• China as the primary global competitor:
  • Forward-deployed defense systems are seen as crucial against Chinese expansion and hypersonic threats.

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3. Hemispheric Defense and the Secretary of State

[18:17–19:11]

• Marco Rubio as Secretary of State receives praise:
  • "It is a remarkable record he's got in one year in that job. He's very talented man." (18:31)
  • Emphasizes Cuban-American vigilance, especially regarding Cuba's proximity and China's ambitions.

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4. U.S. Allies and Western Liberalism at Risk

[22:44–27:53]

• Distress with Canadian and European leadership:
  • Hewitt denounces a speech by Canada’s PM Carney in Davos, which equates the U.S. with China as global hegemons.
    • "He lumped us in as a hegemon with China ... I guess he's forgotten the Uyghurs. He's forgotten Hong Kong..." (22:44)
  • Dr. Arnn laments European and Canadian shifts toward illiberalism:
    • "Trump has adjusted the terms of trade ... and he's also pressing them about freedom. And they don't like it." (23:32)
• European Union’s attenuated democracy and China envy:
  • "They're an international class, those rulers in Brussels ... they censor what people say ... not entirely different from the way China is governed." (24:50)
• Belt and Road Initiative in Hungary:
  • Dr. Arnn recounts a Hungarian government official’s rationale for engaging with China’s economic initiatives:
    • "We have attracted the Belt and Road to Budapest ... Poland hasn't and they won't share the benefits." (26:19)

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5. The Constitutional Crisis in Minneapolis

[27:53–37:49]

a) Social Strain and Violence

[27:53–30:36]

• Major Somali immigration to Minnesota, local upheaval:
  • Hewitt: "There was a massive infusion over the last 15 years into Minnesota of about 60 to 75,000 Somalians..." (27:53)
  • Dr. Arnn notes demographic, social, and cultural shifts, plus the organizational efforts behind protests and opposition to enforcement.
    • "There's an enormous organization behind this ... it does seem to be very well coordinated and organized." (30:36)

b) Breakdown of Federal-State Cooperation

[30:37–34:07]

• MN Governor Waltz's resistance to federal immigration enforcement:
  • "Waltz has not cooperated with the federal authorities ... in which he says the federal government places responsibility for immigration policy in a federal agency. We don't have any authority over it." (30:37)
• The Supremacy Clause reminder:
  • Hewitt: "The old supremacy clause and the commitment of all things immigration to the federal Government exclusively." (31:25)
• Organized resistance to ICE as dangerous precedent:
  • Hewitt: "They are pursuing ICE as though ICE were foreign invaders ... Minnesota's tipped over into chaos and chaos causes casualties." (32:15)
  • Dr. Arnn: "To have the official hostility of the local government makes the situation much more difficult." (32:55)

c) Historical Precedent—Nullification Theory

[34:08–37:49]

• Hewitt asks if local resistance compares to historical episodes.
  • "Have you ever ... remembered where state and local governments opposed the federal government in the exercise of a committed power to the federal government?" (33:20)
• Dr. Arnn draws direct line to 19th-century nullification and Civil Rights resistance:
  • "When was George Wallace in Alabama?" (33:43)
• The doctrine’s (non-)constitutional status:
  • "His claim was ... states could nullify a law by the federal government ... The trouble with that ... it doesn't say that. It says the opposite." (36:35)
  • "Tim Waltz doesn't make a blind bit of sense saying that the states can even resist efforts to enforce the federal law." (37:49)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On modern tyranny:
  "Modern tyranny has a twist ... scientific surveillance ... that's why we invented the name totalitarianism. They can watch everything now."
  —Dr. Larry Arnn [04:09]

• On strategic ambiguity:
  "He's a negotiator ... these guys in Iran have got to be worried, right? What's he going to do? Who knows what he's going to do?"
  —Dr. Larry Arnn [06:48]

• On constraint vs. regime change:
  "He just wants them to behave themselves. He doesn't want to take responsibility for democracy in Iran or anywhere else except the United States."
  —Dr. Larry Arnn [09:20]

• On the shift in alliances:
  "Trump has adjusted the terms of trade ... he's also pressing them about freedom. And they don't like it, Right. They like to control the Internet."
  —Dr. Larry Arnn [23:32]

• On the Belt and Road in Hungary:
  "We have attracted the Belt and Road to Budapest ... Poland hasn't, and they won't share the benefits."
  —Dr. Larry Arnn [26:19]

• On Minnesota's immigration crisis:
  "There's an enormous organization behind this ... it does seem to be very well coordinated and organized."
  —Dr. Larry Arnn [30:36]

• On the supremacy clause:
  "The old supremacy clause and the commitment of all things immigration to the federal Government exclusively."
  —Hugh Hewitt [31:25]

• On nullification doctrine:
  "His claim was it was a constitutional fact that states could nullify a law by the federal government ... The trouble with that ... it doesn't say that. It says the opposite."
  —Dr. Larry Arnn [36:35]

• On the absurdity of local resistance:
  "Tim Waltz doesn't make a blind bit of sense saying that the states can even resist efforts to enforce the federal law."
  —Dr. Larry Arnn [37:49]

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 00:30–10:15 — Iran’s massacre, totalitarianism, and modern surveillance
• 12:58–18:17 — The strategic importance of Greenland
• 22:44–27:53 — Critiques of Canada, the EU, and China as models for western ruling elites
• 27:53–37:49 — Minneapolis: Immigration, social breakdown, federal vs. state power, nullification theory

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Episode Tone & Style

• Conversational, historical, and intellectually rigorous
• Dry humor and pointed analogies (e.g., "doesn't make a blind bit of sense")
• Key ideas supported by historical anecdotes and classical references

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

• The Hillsdale Dialogues episode explores how classic constitutional principles are being tested by real-world crises, both abroad (Iran) and at home (Minneapolis).
• Dr. Arnn argues that Minnesota's local-state resistance to federal law recalls past constitutional crises—and that historical precedent and the Constitution itself provide little support for "nullification."
• International discussions (Iran, Greenland, China) provide context for America's unique position and the gravity of state defiance in Minneapolis.
• The episode warns that coordinated, organized opposition to federal immigration law in Minnesota may mark a true constitutional crisis not seen since the Civil Rights era.

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For further exploration, listen to the full episode or review all Hillsdale Dialogues at HughForHillsdale.com or podcast.hillsdale.edu.

Transcript

[Podcast Narrator]

Every week, Hillsdale College president Larry Arne joins Hugh Hewitt to discuss great books, great men and great ideas. This is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Morning Glory and Evening Grace America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. That music means we are in the Hillsdale Dialogue, the last broadcast hour of the week. Whether you're watching on the Salem News Channel or listening on the Salem Radio Network or listening at Hillsdale. Edu, where all things Hillsdale are collected, we do the last broadcast hour of the week, always with Dr. Larry Arn, President of Hillsdale College, or one of his colleagues. Dr. Arn, Good Friday to you. We're taping this on Wednesday and I tell people that only because given the situation in Iran, anything could happen on Wednesday night and Thursday night. So I just want them to be aware of that. Let's start with Iran. What do you make of what has happened there? The largest massacre since BABA YAR In 1941, when the Nazis advanced through Poland. I mean, just gunned down random people and it beat Tiananmen Square. What's that say to you?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, demeanor in hell. I have a friend, I won't say his name, he's an Iranian immigrant tech guy in Silicon Valley and he says Iran is a wonderful country and the people don't like these mullahs. You know, there are a lot of professional people there, a lot of educated people there, a lot of modern people there. And the old people there because that regime's been in place, what, since 1979. They remember when Iran was in a much more open place where you could wear what you want to do and you could go to the beach and swim and you can't do that anymore. So I, there's a, apparently a great pent up energy for reform and they use brutal techniques to suppress it. And they, you know, I mean, it's a terrorist regime, right. They give a lot of emphasis to exporting terror and they've been crippled in that after, after they went farther. They've always gone too far. They went farther, too far. Which that old joke, you need to know how far to go when you're going too far. And you know, the attacks on Gaza that were just particularly brutal and awesome, awful. And so Israel, with the help of the United States, compromised them, harmed them a lot and they're weaker and these uprisings come after that. So I remember reading a story about the Taliban back before they resumed their control of it, back before the second Gulf War and how they had. A young man had defected and told what he was done to him. He was conscripted into the secret police. And what he went around doing at night was listening for people playing popular music or playing cards or any drinking. And in the daytime, you know, spying on houses going up close to him here would see what he heard. And in the daytime, he was checking the length of men's beards and dress and women's dress, and he could grab them and single them out and put them in prison. This comprehensive enforcement came over the society. And that's what Iran is like, I.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Think, in Aristotelian terms. Is it a despotism, a tyranny? Is it the worst form of government? It's not an oligarchy. Even though the IRGC represents this sort of quasi corporation military, it's still run by one guy, Ayatollah Khamenei. So I think it's a tyranny, isn't it?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

It's run by clerics and, and their claim. See, it's. It's ancient tyranny. Modern. Modern tyranny has a twist. And the Iranian has an additional twist because what we didn't have in the. What there was not in the ancient world was scientific surveillance. And so that's why we invented the name totalitarianism. They can watch everything now. Just read nine. We did the course on the top. Tyranno. It's tyranny, more intense and using modern science as a tool. And then add a twist on that, because in the ancient world outside Israel, which was not in close contact but some contact with the world of Socrates, which came 1500 years later or so, that you didn't have universal religion. Islam is from about 600 A.D. judaism is from about 22500 B.C. christianity is about 1 A.D. well, if you have a universal religion and then people rule in the name of it, that means that they get their authority, they claim, from God, and that means there's no appeal above them by the people. It's one of the glories of Christianity that it does not establish governments, Judaism does, but only a government for the chosen people. So now you've got these guys and they pretend to be on a mission from God and appointed by God and speaking for God, and how do you appeal above them? So those changes, modern science, modern surveillance, computers, drones, cameras everywhere, algorithms to watch what everybody does, and then add in this pernicious understanding of the relation between religion and politics and you get comprehensive despotism.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And so with that, the President has got the Abraham Lincoln strike group there. They've flooded the area with all sorts of military assets, defensive as well as offensive. And the President has done what he always does, which is to say A and not a, pretty much in the same sentence, often without a paragraph, without a comma. And it's wonderfully ambiguous if you're trying to figure out what he's doing and you're an enemy. But the United States is not used to people like this. How do you, how do you assess his actions in response to the massacre? And then what do you think he's going to do and should do and maybe should not do as well?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, I don't know. I mean, I read a good article. So, first of all, yeah, he's. He's a negotiator, he's good at it. And he does leave a lot of ambiguity, which he has to do or he should do. And, of course, that leaves a lot of ambiguity for us. And if you just think of the dramatic things he's done, I mean, Maduro is in New York City right now in prison with his wife. And how that happened, you know, and he talked about it off and on, as you rightly described. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. A couple of times he directly said to Maduro, it's time for you to step down. That was even in the first term he was saying that. And then, by golly, one day he just went and got him. And so that means that these guys in Iran have got to be worried, right? What's he going to do? Who knows what he's going to do? And he sent in the Venezuela thing was preceded by a very large military, naval and air, and improved ground buildup in and around Venezuela. And that went on for some weeks or months. I'm pretty sure it's a public fact. But I read the Justice Department memo on the legality of the Venezuela thing, and that was written in December, and I happen to know the young who wrote that. And so they were planning. Right. And he didn't. The memo doesn't. A lot of it's redacted. The memo doesn't have all the details. But in other words, they were thinking hard about this. Right. And whatever Trump is, they are planning to do, they're probably thinking very hard about it. They're just not saying what it is, but they are gathering force there. And you couldn't say on Trump's record that he will be unwilling to use it.

[Hugh Hewitt]

I do not think, though. Tell me I'm wrong. I do not think we will see any troops on the ground there. It will all be done beyond the range of an easy Iranian shot. That does not mean that our troops are not at risk. They are at risk because they're stationed at places certain and they have ballistic missiles in Iran and they have targeting capabilities. So it's not without risk. But do you think that level of massacre can be allowed to go unpunished by the west, given that they're not a nuclear power and they can't? Nuclear power is in a different category. They're not a nuclear power. Ought we to do a punitive strike?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

The answer is. Let me tell a story by way of answer. I read a really great article and I can find it and post it on for Hillsdale. And it said maybe the key to Trump's foreign policy is to figure out that he's trying to constrain these enemies. He doesn't want to rule them, he doesn't want to occupy them. He wants them to behave themselves. He doesn't want to take responsibility for democracy in Iran or anywhere else except the United States. And so he uses tools that place them in a bind and constrain their actions. And he has done that very systematically to Iran. Iran is much more constrained now than it was a year ago, and they're weaker than they were and they're besieged. They're in a world of hurt. And he warned them a hundred times.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And he continues to warn them. And as we talk, he's given them another invitation to talk. We don't know whether or not they will or whether how long that is, but we'll be posted on that and keep everyone. Don't go anywhere except where Larry mentioned, HughForHillsdale.com or everything. Hillsdale's at Hillsdale. Eduardo, stay tuned.

[Bill Gray]

Hi there, it's Bill Gray from Hillsdale College. Before you skip ahead, can I ask you a question or two? If you could teach 50 million Americans one thing, what would it be? Would you teach our great American story that this nation is unique, founded on self government and individual liberty? Maybe you would teach the truth about free enterprise, how hard work and opportunity allow anyone to rise? Or would you teach the gospel and the Christian faith that helps us live good and meaningful lives? At Hillsdale College, we're doing exactly that. Teaching the best that's been thought and said. Through our free online courses, K12 programs, Imprimis, podcasts and more, we reach and teach millions every year with the principles of liberty that make America free. And with your help, we can reach even more. Your tax deductible gift today will will help us teach millions more people to pursue truth and defend liberty. Just text the word give to 7 1844. You'll get a secure link to make your donation in seconds. That's give to 718 44. Thank you for standing with us. Now back to the show.

[Podcast Narrator]

Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. What's happening this week? Well, we're we've got Dr. Alan Gelzo with us, one of our favorite guests talking about the unique character of Western civilization because he's co authored a massive two part book series, the Golden A History of the Western Tradition in depth this week with Alan Gelzo and a little fun with Michael P. Foley, a mixologist and professor in the Great Text Program at Baylor. He'll talk about his collection of alcohol free and low alcohol cocktails based on the lives of Catholic saints. His book Abstaining with the no and low Alcohol Beverages for Sober Souls, all that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Next week we will return with Dr. Larry Arn, president of Hillsdale College, to part 19 of our series on Winston Churchill's World War II memoirs. They're fabulous. But every few weeks I pause with Dr. R and look around the world with him since many of you hang on his every word and that's a good idea to do. You'd have been right a lot more than you'd have been wrong over the last many years of this program. 13 I think now Greenland, Dr. Arne is in the news and I think I know what he's doing and I think it's working. But what do you think he's doing and do you think it's working?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

I think I know and I think it's working. First of all, Greenland is important. We're going to get to it. Not this week, but later we're going to get to the submarine warfare in 1942. 43.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yep.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

And we will see that it was concentrated off Greenland, between Greenland and Iceland and the United Kingdom, where the Atlantic is relatively narrow and where we didn't have until the end of 1943 air power to protect our convoys. And Churchill thought, he writes in this book that we're reading that that's the place where they could have lost the war because Britain was becoming cut off from the world. Greenland is strategically important and it has been every time there's and you know, in modern conditions more important. Right. Because now you can reach so far, and yet the Atlantic is so big that where it gets a bit narrower, there's opportunity, and that's our route to Europe and Europe's root to us. So, yeah, it's important. Now, we have a lot of rights there. We have military bases there. We have the right to have them there. One thing he's asking for is that they become permanent.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yes.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

That we have a kind of semi sovereignty. So if there's a change of regime, if Greenland becomes independent or somebody else takes it over, we have a right. We have a legally negotiated right to be there in perpetuity. And he seems to be aiming for that.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And I remind people of Guantanamo Bay, which is ours in perpetuity in Cuba, and we use it, and we're never going to give it up, and nor would we want to relinquish sovereignty there. Although Presidents Obama and Biden tried to close the prisoner camp there, they never did. Still a half dozen to 20 people down there, I'm never quite sure, but that's sovereign territory and also extends out into the exclusive economic zone, 230 miles. So I think it's really about keeping the Chinese from overfishing and intercepting hypersonics that are flying, not like an icbm, up into the upper atmosphere and beyond the space, and then back down, but fly low to the ground and fast. We have to forward, deploy defense. Yeah.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

And, you know, that's. That is a. You know, if you study international relations, which I did in graduate school and still follow, you find out in war where the United States is vulnerable. Did you know, for example, that the strategy of Lincoln and Grant was that the vulnerable point was the Mississippi?

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yes.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

That you can get into the heartland of America by the. By the Mississippi and the east coast ports, which are open and great there tend to. Tend to be mountainous country between that and the rest of the country. And, you know, Grant lost an awful lot of soldiers and killed a lot of soldiers in the Shenandoah Valley, whereas General Sherman, when he broke out from Atlanta after Grant had taken Vicksburg, he had quicker movement. So now New Orleans is an enormous port. And then there and they. And getting out of the Gulf of Mexico. Excuse me, the Gulf of America, you have to go by Cuba. Right. Cuba makes it narrow there. And so if there's some major hostile military base there, Naval base there, it can cut off our access. And then if they got strong enough, they could try to reproduce the, you know, the first territory conquered by the Union in the Civil War with Louisiana, then they go up The Mississippi, and they start winning battles up the Mississippi. You had to get past Vicksburg, which was a very fortified place on cliffs looking down on the Mississippi. And Grant did that via siege. And when Vicksburg fell right at the same time as the Battle of Gettysburg, that's when the war turned. And so, yeah, these things matter, right? And if you're thinking about the division, you know, China is all over Venezuela, or they were.

[Hugh Hewitt]

They were.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

And. And they're all over Latin America, and they're mucking around with Cuba and they've got interest in Greenland. And so he's thinking about the defense of the homeland. And those are very intelligent steps.

[Hugh Hewitt]

He also has Marco Rubio as the Secretary of State. I think Mike Pompeo was a great one in the first term, and in the second term, I think some of this hemispheric focus is coming from Secretary Marco Rubio. Do you agree with that?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, yeah. There's a. I have a alum, really great guy, and he sends me memes six months ago. I didn't know what a meme was, but I get a whole bunch of them every day. And there's a meme thread running now where Rubio is. You know, he's always sitting in the same place in the. At the state Union message, I think, and he's wearing the uniform of the potentate of Venezuela, and then he's wearing a soldier's uniform. He's just going around solving all the problems in the world. And it's, you know, it is a remarkable record he's got in one year in that job. He's very talented man.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And as President Trump said, he's got a lot of Cuban in him. He said to me on this program three weeks ago, Marcos, I think it's 100% Cuban. To be exact, it's a Cuban American. I don't think there's any other genealogy of which I'm aware. But he's always been aware, as anyone from Miami is aware, of how close Cuba is to the United States. And it cannot become a base for Hezbollah or China or anyone. And I do think Greenland is the same way that we have one competitor in this world. Its name is China, and they have a lot of countries that are dependent upon their belt and road initiative and their money and their oil. And we do not care for them to be our neighbors. And I think that's all that we need to know about Greenland for the time being. He's not going to make war on it. Don't go anywhere, America, except to Hillsdale. Edu. All of the Hillsdale courses are aligned there and you can sign up for Imprimis, their free monthly speech digest, by just going to Hillsdale. Edu and find the Imprimis page and sign up. And for all the Hillsdale Dialogues going back 13 years, go to hueforhillsdale.com hi.

[Bill Gray]

There, it's Bill Gray from Hillsdale College. Before you skip ahead, can I ask you a question or two? If you could teach 50 million Americans one thing, what would it be? Would you teach our great American story that this nation is unique, founded on self government and individual liberty? Maybe you would teach the truth about free enterprise, how hard work and opportunity allow anyone to rise. Or would you teach the gospel and the Christian faith that helps us live good and meaningful lives? At Hillsdale College, we're doing exactly that, teaching the best that's been thought and said. Through our free online courses, K12 programs, Imprimis, podcasts and more, we reach and teach millions every year with the principles of liberty that make America free. And with your help, we can reach even more. Your tax deductible gift today will help us teach millions more people to pursue truth and defend liberty. Just text the word give to 7 1844. You'll get a secure link to make your donation in seconds. That's give to 718 44. Thank you for standing with us. Now back to the show.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

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[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. Dr. Larry Ahren is my guest on this, the concluding hour of our broadcast every week. Oh, Canada. Dr. Ahn, I wrote a long piece for Fox News this week just denouncing Prime Minister Carney's speech at Davos, because speeches matter. And he lumped us in as a hegemon with China. And he called on the middle powers of the world to make sure they're strong enough to hold off both hegemons. This came a week after he had been shaking hands with Xi Jinping. I guess he's forgotten the Uyghurs. He's forgotten Hong Kong, he's forgotten Jimmy Lai, he's forgotten Taiwan. We're the bad guys in that speech. Now. I love Canada. My daughter in law is a Canadian and became an American. So she's a Canadian American. Her parents are wonderful, her family's wonderful. I'm not mad at any Canadian. You're closer to Canada than I am. But what is wrong with this guy?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, Just saying, doesn't everybody love Canada? Canadian bacon. Well, there's a theme here, right? This is happening. Trump has adjusted the terms of trade and that doesn't just mean tariffs and international trade. It means national defense. And it means pressure on and with our allies, with Europe and with Canada and others too. And he's also pressing them about freedom. And they don't like it, Right. They like to control the Internet. And he's pressing them about their immigration policies, which look like a disaster in the making in Europe or maybe a disaster already made. And so of course they do. What powers do they gravitate to our chief rival. And there's some ground for that, I think. They're not the same places anymore that they used to be. The European Union, if you look at it as a representative form of government, the best you can say about it is that the control of the people over it is attenuated. There's.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And that's generous. That's generous, yeah.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

And so they're an international class, those rulers in Brussels of the European Union, and they censor what people say and they put pressure on the governments and the governments have a lot of trouble standing up to them. And if they don't like what you're doing, they fine you daily, which they're doing to Hungary because they don't like Hungary's immigration policies, which are restrictive. And so you can just see that's not entirely different from the way China is governed. And so there's some, you know, Trump, China is the administrative state on steroids. It's not really the government owns all the property, which is the Marxist idea. It's the government controls all the property directly and indirectly by a thousand means. And the Communist Party says what's what? And Xi right now says what's what? And so it's, you know, to, to summit the Davos crowd. That looks like, not so bad really. You know, look how it modernizes, look how strong it is. Look, it's probably, it might be militarily stronger than we are, right? Now, and that's dangerous. And, and certainly it's militarily much stronger than they are. And so they get mad at us and they go to them. And, you know, if you saw Macron.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Speech at Davos, I did not watch him. No.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, he, it was an appeal. Europe is open to China. Come join us. And that, you know, I mean, I, you know, just don't underestimate the power of those guys, the Chinese. I had a minister in the Orban government in Hungary come to visit last year. He's a good guy. He sort of invited himself. I like him. So we had him and he, he gave a talk and he's, you know, Orban is Hungary for the Hungarians. Right. There are 10 million Hungarians. They're members of the European Union. They have to be, because they have to trade, they have to have, you know, it's a free country. The people vote for who they want to and they need to be prosperous. And then on the other side, they got Russia. They're in a world of hurt. And this guy who is very, I mean, he's completely anti communist, just as I am, he said, we have attracted the Belt and Road to Budapest. And I said, wowee, really? How's that? What's that about? He said, well, Poland hasn't, and they won't share the benefits.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Huh.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

And so I thought about it. Yeah. And I thought about that a lot. And, you know, one of our advantages in Asia has been that we're far away and there's a lot of conflict among those nations and we're rather far away. That may be how China looks to hunt for. Right. They got nothing but trouble all around them. These guys coming from afar.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Time for a Paul Revere. We gotta wake up. Because I did not realize Belton Road was in Hungary and Poland. No doubt they want to go to Canada, and no doubt we don't want that. Stay tuned, America. I'll be right back to talk Minnesota with Dr. Arne on the Hillsdale dialogue. All things Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Edu. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Dr. Arne, there have been two deadly shootings in Minnesota. There's been a massive fraud in Minnesota. There was a massive infusion over the last 15 years into Minnesota of about 60 to 75,000 Somalians. In fact, in St. Cloud, Minnesota, a town of 68,000 people, 4,400 Somalians were settled there. What do you think is going on in Minnesota? Other than it reminds me a whole lot of the weathermen I'm old enough to remember from High school, the Weathermen and the Symbionese Liberation Army. The two people who were shot were victims of both the bullets and the people in the background moving people around. I'm very, very concerned about Minnesota. What are you thinking?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, well, it's terrible. I'll add a dimension to this. They're having a fight with Trump and the federal government is having to fight with Minnesota over the voter rolls. And a Catholic bishop who's a friend of mine calls a good man published an article in the Wall Street Journal last week that said, for safety's sake, those illegal immigrants in Minnesota should get a driver's license immediately. Well, if you get a driver's license and you can vote, you can. And, you know, at least in. And so what's all this about, right? Why did he take 50 to 70,000 Obama, 50 to 75,000 Somalis and put them in Minnesota all of a sudden, you know, and that just is a really good New York Times article. I confess I couldn't find it this morning. Actually, I did find it, but I can't. It's a paywall, and I wasn't prepared to pay him the money. And it talked about how it changed the town. It's a nice little town, Saint Cloud. I think Saint Olaf College might be there. Nice little college, fabulous choir program. And it just, you know, the parks are different, the streets are different. And, you know, people in Minnesota are really nice. And this is troubling stuff. And they feel bad about it, too. And then there is an enormous organization behind this. I think there's likely to be news on Power Line. There is every day about all this. And those guys, Hinder Rocker and Scott Johnson, I know best, Hayward, too. They live up there. Well, Indracher and Scott Johnson live up there.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yep.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

And they're reporting. Right. And, you know, like Waltz has not cooperated with the federal authorities. He actually, there's a wonderful statement by him in which he says the federal government places responsibility for immigration policy in a federal agency. We don't have any authority over it. He said. He said that a year ago or something in the course of. We're not going to have anything to do with it right now. On the other hand, he also says what happens on our streets, our law enforcement's got to be involved. So what's that about? Right. And, you know, you're the lawyer here, but this Constitution and the laws per se made pursuant to it, shall be the supreme law of the land.

[Hugh Hewitt]

The old supremacy clause and the commitment of all things immigration to the federal Government exclusively.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

That's right. And so they, you know, and, and we don't know the full story about these shootings, which are tragic and we will find out in due course. But it's a hostile environment for law and sportsman. It's organized and it's elaborate. And somebody sent me yesterday power lines. Apparently going is studying this, but it's a list of who gave money for this, for this protest in Minnesota. And the numbers are very large. If it's true, and I don't know if it's true, but it does seem to be very well coordinated and organized.

[Hugh Hewitt]

There are over at Fox Digital there is a very long story on the WhatsApp and the. The other means signal messaging among the groups organizing. And they are pursuing ICE as though ICE were foreign invaders. And in fact they're agents of the federal government, which is the supreme law of the land. And I think Minnesota's tipped over into chaos and chaos causes casualties. It's terrible what happened to these two people. But I do think that Waltz and the dopey mayor Jacob Fry have not helped anyone accomplish anything there. Not in the least.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, Waltz did call in public for people to track the activities of ICE and take their cameras and photograph what they do. And you know, I mean, what they do is in public. It's nothing wrong photographing it. They ought to try to do it carefully and not hurt anybody. They can help it. But to have the official hostility of the local government makes the situation much more difficult.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Have you in your study of American history after the Civil War. I'll bring up the Civil War after the break in John Calhoun. Have you ever, do you ever remember where state and local governments opposed the federal government in the exercise of a committed power to the federal government? I don't. And I've been teaching con law for 30 years. I don't remember it.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

When was George Wallace in Alabama?

[Hugh Hewitt]

That was early 60s. And there was Estes, not Kefauver, the guy down in Arkansas. The governor of Arkansas stood in the.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Orval Faubus.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Orval Faubus, that's right. He was one that opposed. But then the National Guard, then Eisenhower sent in the 82nd or the 101st and rolled right over him because that was.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

That's right.

[Hugh Hewitt]

He was going to enforce the federal law.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, that's right. And yeah, so we talk about the Civil War and the nullification crisis, but you know, the government is a mess. This situation is dangerous in many ways, including politically dangerous. Right. Because first of all, there's a lot of radicals in America, probably more on the left than the right, but they're on both. And radicals, I mean, people who are wrong, wrongly, radical. And then in general, people are rather suspicious and afraid of the government. And so when it does strong things, I've always thought that they had changed America in ways that would be very difficult to undo. When they let you know, what, 9, 10 million people in, in the Biden.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Years, I would double that number. And when we come back, we'll talk about that. President Obama allowed in 54,000 Somalis refugees between 2009 and the end of his administration into Minnesota. 54,000. That's a lot. Stay tuned, America. I'll be right back with Dr. Arn talking about the nullification theory. Welcome back, America. All things Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Edu, all the [e-mail] Dr. Arnold we have three minutes in this short segment. We've done John Calhoun before in the Hillsdale dialogue, but I never expected nullification theory to arise in Minnesota after the 1828, 1832 and ultimately the Civil War put it to rest that states don't get to ignore the federal law. And is that not settled? Yeah.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

What that is is a doctrine that was born in John Calhoun, who claimed lineage for the doctrine back to medicine and Jefferson in the Kentucky and Virginia resolutions at the time of the Founding. And his claim was it was a constitutional fact that states could nullify a law by the federal government, the operation of the law in their own territories or a group of states could simply overcome it. And the trouble with that is a constitutional matter is that the Constitution of the United states is about 4,500 words long. And it doesn't say that. It says the opposite.

[Hugh Hewitt]

It says the opposite.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah. And Calhoun was reluctant to talk all through the Civil War. Right. The Confederacy pro, you know, the slavers who led the Confederacy, I hasten to say most in the Confederacy were not slavers. They never talked about the right of revolution because the slaves were listening. Right. They twisted the Constitution into a pretzel. And if, if the people of Minnesota think that Donald Trump is a despot, they have the right in nature to rebel against him and use violence if they want to. John Locke calls that the appeal to heaven, but that's not what they're talking.

[Hugh Hewitt]

About and that's not what they believe. They don't believe that either.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

No, it's not. They don't believe it either. But, but the truth is the Constitution is pretty clear on all this stuff. And I'm the last guy to say that I endorse everything the federal government does. Indeed, I I oppose most what it does. I don't even think it makes the laws the right way anymore. But having said that, Tim Waltz doesn't make a blind bit of sense saying that the states can even resist efforts to enforce the federal law.

[Hugh Hewitt]

A blind bit of sense. I'm going to take that and use that. Tim Waltz does not make a blind Is that an Arkansas saying we're out of time? But is that an Arkansas saying? Yeah, okay, I've got one for the books. I'll use that on Senator Cotton. A blind bit of sense. That's like red. Read it up. The House in Pittsburgh. It's a local dialect. Dr. Larry Arn is president of Hillsdale College. All things hillsdalesdale Edu, including your application for next year, though it's getting pretty late in the day if you're a senior. But go there and take all the courses and get smart. You can get smart, you can get smarter, and you can get smarter still by taking Hillsdale courses at Hillsdale. Edu. All of my dialogues with Dr. Arnold and his colleagues are collected at HughForHillsdale.com HughForHillsdale.com Next week, chapter or episode 19 in World War II land with Winston Churchill. Don't miss it and I'll see you on Monday on the next you, Hewitt Show.

[Podcast Narrator]

Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to Hillsdale.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Eduardo.