Hillsdale Dialogues: "The Future of Representative Government"
Date: December 15, 2025
Host: Hugh Hewitt
Guest: Dr. Larry P. Arnn, President of Hillsdale College
Overview
This week's episode departs from the ongoing Churchill series to address timely matters on the future of representative government. Host Hugh Hewitt and Dr. Larry Arnn engage in thought-provoking discussions about the constitutionality of independent agencies, the evolving role of presidential power, bureaucratic accountability, fraud in public programs, issues facing American and European governance, and campus traditions at Hillsdale. The conversation is steeped in history, political philosophy, and present-day events, with both men displaying their characteristic wit and candor.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Constitutional Debate Over Independent Agencies
[00:30–04:43]
- Supreme Court Argument: Hewitt raises the recent Supreme Court discussion about independent agencies' constitutionality.
- Dr. Arnn’s View: He argues that such agencies, led by unelected, tenured experts, are antithetical to the principle of consent of the governed.
"The question it presents is, shall the people be governed by experts with lifetime tenure or shall they be governed by people they elect?...That seems to me a denial of human nature.” (Arnn, 01:31)
- Federal Reserve: Hewitt presses on whether the Federal Reserve should remain independent. Arnn sees no constitutional basis for its exception:
"Should those be run by people who are beyond the reach of the elected representatives? I can't think of any possible argument why it’s different." (Arnn, 03:07)
- Expertise in Government: Justice Brown Jackson’s argument that PhDs might not enter government without tenure is critiqued by both, with Hewitt emphasizing the agencies must be answerable to the electorate.
2. Presidential Power: National Security at the Borders
[04:43–10:05]
- Commander-in-Chief’s Power: Discussion covers whether the President needs Congressional approval to use force in scenarios like drug interdiction.
- Checks and Balances: Arnn explains the interplay of powers; each branch has tools to defend its prerogatives to avoid collapsing into one.
"The branches share in each other’s powers...they need both branches, all the three branches need the means to defend themselves." (Arnn, 07:17)
- Growth of Bureaucracy: Arnn notes a ballooning executive state, citing 150,000 pages of federal rules produced in two years, mostly from agencies rather than Congress.
3. Bureaucratic Accountability & Public Sector Incentives
[12:21–18:20]
- Minnesota Fraud: The show pivots to the scale of fraud in Minnesota’s Somali community, linking it to large-scale, hasty COVID relief spending.
"What these are is rings of people, criminal rings organized to exploit that and get lots of extra money, fake IDs and all kinds of things." (Arnn, 13:13)
- California Prison Fraud: Hewitt describes California’s $20–$32 billion pandemic-era fraud, with prisoners exploiting poor government checks.
- Incentives in Government vs. Private Sector:
"If you go broke, you suffer. Well, who suffers? What penalty will anybody pay for the loss of this $700 billion...?" (Arnn, 16:00)
- Historical Context: Arnn contrasts nationalized, rules-based welfare (post-New Deal) with community-based systems of the founding era.
4. Campus Life & Hillsdale Traditions
[19:10–23:57]
- Christmas at Hillsdale: Arnn details the college’s "Nine Lessons and Carols" service, chapel music, and Christmas festivities.
- Student-Faculty Traditions: Stories of campus life, like noonday prayers and snow days, illustrate a living, communal academic culture:
"There are 20 kids sitting in the choral stalls...They just did that. That happens three times a day in our chapel." (Arnn, 20:50)
5. The Crisis of Governance in Europe
[25:45–32:55]
- U.S. National Security Statement: Hewitt notes administration warnings about Europe’s civilization being at risk.
- Grooming Gangs and Lost Records: Arnn reflects on England’s inability to confront organized criminality, poor record-keeping, and police failure:
"They have lost 13 years of police records...they don't have the records to give to the national inquiry..." (Arnn, 27:12)
- The Challenge of Mass Migration & Assimilation:
"Just imagine the extreme cases which we have more or less had...To be a citizen in a free republic, you have to know some things and you have to do the duties of citizenship." (Arnn, 30:35)
- Comparison with U.S. Immigration: Hewitt and Arnn compare mass immigration eras, questioning the capacity for assimilation in different contexts.
6. Political Parties in Crisis: U.S. Democrats & UK Tories
[34:00–35:47]
- Loss of Direction: Both parties are seen as adrift: Democrats veering left without moderation, Tories lacking principles and not acting on opportunities.
"They got a big majority and they've dominated politics for 12 years. And they didn't do anything with it because they didn't believe in anything." (Arnn, 34:00)
- Policy Failures: Arnn critiques net-zero policies and immigration failures in the UK, lamenting the loss of Thatcherite resolve.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On Agency Power:
"Consent of the governed is the rule." (Arnn, 01:31)
- On Public Accountability:
"If you go broke, you suffer. Well, who suffers? What penalty will anybody pay for the loss of this $700 billion?" (Arnn, 16:00)
- On Christmas at Hillsdale:
"There are 20 kids sitting in the choral stalls up...doing noonday prayers, and they began to chant...They just did that. That happens three times a day in our chapel.” (Arnn, 20:50)
- On Migration and Citizenship:
"To be a citizen in a free republic, you have to know some things and you have to do the duties of citizenship... it might well take some time." (Arnn, 30:35)
- On Party Drift:
"[The Tories] didn’t do anything with [their majority] because they didn’t believe in anything...an honest route to a bad end is not a good route." (Arnn, 34:00)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 00:30 – Supreme Court & Independent Agencies
- 03:07 – Federal Reserve as Independent Agency
- 04:43 – Presidential Power & Borders
- 07:17 – Checks, Balances, and Bureaucratic Lawmaking
- 12:21 – Minnesota & California Fraud
- 16:00 – Incentives and Accountability in Government
- 19:10 – Hillsdale’s Christmas Traditions
- 25:45 – Warnings Over Europe’s Future
- 27:12 – UK's Grooming Gangs & Lost Police Records
- 30:35 – Assimilation, Citizenship, Waves of Migration
- 34:00 – Party Identity Crisis in U.S. & U.K.
Conclusion
The episode presents a sweeping reflection on the fragility and future of representative government in both theory (through the lens of constitutional design) and practice (in the age of sprawling bureaucracy and mass migration). Arnn and Hewitt blend current events, political analysis, and history to illuminate challenges facing the Western tradition of self-government, offering both caution and glimpses of local renewal. The annual traditions at Hillsdale serve as a counterpoint: rootedness, community, and the cultivation of virtue amid uncertainty.