The Politics of Shakespeare, Part One

Summary

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Hillsdale Dialogues — The Politics of Shakespeare, Part One

Podcast: Hillsdale Dialogues (Hillsdale College)
Host: Hugh Hewitt
Guest: Dr. Khalil Habib (Professor of Political Theory, Hillsdale College)
Date: February 23, 2026

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Overview of the Episode

This episode kicks off a two-part exploration of the political themes in Shakespeare’s plays, focusing on the Henry VI trilogy and Richard III. With regular co-host Dr. Larry Arnn away, Hugh Hewitt welcomes Dr. Khalil Habib, who contextualizes Shakespeare’s works within political philosophy and English constitutional history. The dialogue draws connections between Straussian reading, the tradition of liberal education, and foundational questions surfaced in Shakespeare's history plays.

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Key Discussion Points

Pathway to Political Theory and Hillsdale (00:29–04:29)

• Habib’s Academic Journey: Dr. Habib describes how studies at the University of Maine and mentorship from Straussian-influenced professors ignited his passion for political theory.
• Straussian Influence: Early exposure to Leo Strauss’s method of reading classic texts, especially Plato’s Republic, left a lasting intellectual impact.

“I never knew philosophy even existed until I got to University of Maine. And I don't know if you remember your first experience when you come into contact with a book that literally opens a lost world for you. It felt like Narnia to me.” — Dr. Khalil Habib (04:29)

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What Is Straussianism? (06:39–10:40)

• Explaining Straussianism: Strauss’s approach values timelessness in great texts, treating them as living dialogues rather than relics.
• Self-Knowledge and Timelessness: The Straussian method exposes modern prejudices and guides students toward self-knowledge by reading works as mirrors to their own limitations.

“Once you’re bit by that, there’s no going back. … Primarily means looking at ideas as if they’re timeless and as a mirror to exposing one's own limitations. And so at the end of the day, its ultimate aim is self knowledge.” — Dr. Khalil Habib (09:26)

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Education at Hillsdale and Strauss versus Historicism (12:56–16:01)

• Habib’s Openness: Dr. Habib shares why he is transparent with students about Straussian methods, aiming to replicate his own transformative experience.
• Jerusalem and Athens: Touches on Strauss’s motif of tension between faith (Jerusalem) and reason (Athens), impacting Habib’s own approach to education.

“He believed that philosophy means the autonomy of human reason, and faith would mean... taking a leap of faith in trust in God. And so that really made me want to turn to medieval thought.” — Dr. Khalil Habib (13:54)

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Medievalism: History, Philosophy, and Tension (16:01–19:07)

• Medievalism in Political and Philosophical Terms: Differentiates between feudal decentralization (“medievalism” politically) and theological debate (“medievalism” philosophically).
• Straussian Tension: Strauss’s habit of posing sharp contrasts spurs critical thinking, mirroring Socratic and Platonic dialogic method.

“Almost everything Strauss touched always led to a Platonic end. There was always some kind of tension. Modernity is great, but it's in tension with the ancients.” — Dr. Khalil Habib (18:56)

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Liberal Education and Teaching at Hillsdale (19:07–21:06)

• Curriculum at Hillsdale: Emphasis on primary texts and fostering a dialogue between conflicting ideas, regardless of chronological order.
• Goal of Liberal Education: Introducing students to challenging ideas, enabling pursuit of truth and moral seriousness.

“I always present the books, no matter what I'm teaching, as though they’re absolutely true. And I make sure that they all contradict each other, that there’s a debate, a dialogue going between them, between the authors…” — Dr. Khalil Habib (19:44)

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Shakespeare’s History Plays: Henry VI and English Constitutional Identity (22:10–24:52)

• Why Henry VI Matters: Dr. Habib argues that these plays are central to understanding the evolution of the English-speaking peoples and their constitutional traditions.
• Shakespeare & America’s Intellectual Heritage: References to Tocqueville’s admiration for Americans’ appreciation of Shakespeare as a link to pre-Tudor English liberty.

“When you read them, it becomes very obvious that they share a lot of the same themes that are in the Federalist Papers. The cause of factions, religious persecution, conflicts between France and England, etc.” — Dr. Khalil Habib (24:24)

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Henry VI: A Case Study in Political Misalignment (29:18–31:17)

• Henry VI’s Character: Portrayed as pious and ill-suited for kingship—a man better fit for religious life than rule.
• Problem of Hereditary Monarchy: Shakespeare uses Henry VI’s inadequacy to critique systems in which office and soul are misaligned, favoring merit over inheritance.

“His wife says he should have been a pope. He himself says he wishes he could have been a priest. … I think the greater sort of framework of this whole series of plays is the problem with it, with hereditary monarchy.” — Dr. Khalil Habib (29:41)

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The Structure and Failure of Hereditary Monarchy (31:17–33:25)

• Shakespeare’s Republican Leanings: Asserts the plays show the flaws of hereditary rule, pointing toward republican ideas.
• Support Networks and Abdication: Henry VI’s reliance on others, particularly Gloucester and his wife, highlights his unsuitability for leadership.

“By the time you're done with this play, you're struck by how you can only conclude that there's something fundamentally flawed. With a hereditary monarchy… Shakespeare forces you to consider that maybe merit, rather than birth, should determine somebody's role in office.” — Dr. Khalil Habib (32:57)

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France, Joan of Arc, and Englishness in the Plays (33:25–34:38)

• Contrasts of Centralization and Decentralization: Explains why France needs Joan of Arc (centralized monarchy and emasculated aristocracy) and England produces figures like Talbot (decentralization creating strong military leaders).
• Political Regimes Shape Characters: The differences in national character are products of their respective regimes, according to Shakespeare’s depiction.

“...It's so deeply decentralized that it unfortunately leads to factions, but it also leads to extraordinary military men like Henry V himself, Talbot and others. And that's a nice pairing that Shakespeare does…” — Dr. Khalil Habib (33:55)

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Shakespeare’s Intentions and Catholicism (34:38–36:36)

• Did Shakespeare Offend with the Henry Plays?: Habib believes not, arguing that the plays ultimately vindicate the Tudor dynasty.
• Was Shakespeare Catholic?: Views the evidence as ambiguous and dependent on interpretation; the plays’ main critique is of hereditary monarchy, not Christianity per se.

“There is no conflict between Christianity and politics. What you have in those plays is an examination of the problems that are inherent in hereditary monarchy, not in Christianity…” — Dr. Khalil Habib (35:44)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On First Encounter with Great Books
  “It felt like Narnia to me. I just couldn’t believe what I was reading.” — Dr. Khalil Habib (04:29)

• On Straussian Reading
  “We place ourselves in a position of moral and intellectual superiority without knowing the roots of our own beliefs and our prejudices.” — Dr. Khalil Habib (08:13)

• On the Goal of Liberal Education
  “The best thing you could do for them is to show them the many paths that they can take to pursue something that they’re genuinely interested in.” — Dr. Khalil Habib (21:00)

• On the Political Message of Henry VI
  “Henry VI is the most pious of the English kings... He’s really not fit for the task of a monarch.” — Dr. Khalil Habib (29:41)

• On Shakespeare and Republicanism
  “It's pretty clear he has a lot of republican leanings... I think what Shakespeare is really trying to show us in these plays is... How do you avoid [misalignment in monarchy]? And the problem is, you can't avoid it.” — Dr. Khalil Habib (31:24)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:29 — Introduction, Dr. Habib’s educational background
• 04:29 — Discovery of Straussian thought
• 07:26 — Explaining Straussianism to newcomers
• 13:39 — Frankfurt to Claremont: Strauss’s influence and liberal education
• 22:10 — Why and how to read the Henry VI plays
• 29:41 — Dr. Habib’s interpretation of Henry VI’s character
• 33:32 — Joan of Arc, Talbot, and regime differences
• 34:47 — Shakespeare’s intentions and the Tudors
• 35:30 — Was Shakespeare Catholic?

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Conclusion

Part one of this two-part series lays a rich philosophical and historical foundation for reading Shakespeare’s English history plays, using the lens of political theory to uncover questions of governance, legitimacy, and national character. Dr. Habib argues that Shakespeare’s depiction of monarchy is informed by republican sympathies, and he adeptly weaves together classical thought, medieval theology, and English constitutional development. The stage is set for an even deeper dive into Richard III in the next episode.

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Transcript

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

Every week, Hillsdale College President Larry Arne joins Hugh Hewitt to discuss great books, great men, and great ideas. This is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Morning Glory and Evening Grace America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. You hear that music in the background? That means it's time for the Hillsdale Dialogue. Enough of tariffs, enough of Iran. We turn to big, important stuff. Dr. Arne is gone for a couple of weeks, so we're taking a detour from Churchill's World War II memoirs into something almost as English as Churchill. I guess we have to count Shakespeare as English as Churchill. I'm joined by Dr. Khalil Habib. He's been a guest before he's back from Hillsdale, and he's got a very interesting background. He went to the University of Maine. I got to figure what that's out. He got a doctorate in political theory, his master's in political theory, and he teaches Shakespeare in political theory up at Hillsdale College. All things Hillsdalesdale. Edu. Dr. Habib, welcome back. Professor, why did you go to the University of Maine? I live a quarter of the year in Maine. I'm just curious.

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

Oh, I didn't know that. It was really just a function of my family living in Maine at the time, and it was a great education, and I really couldn't ask for more. I went in intending to go to law school, but I was very fortunate. I had two excellent teachers in political science who really turned beyond a political theory and the Claremont School and approach to political thought. So I was hooked from the beginning. And at one point, I thought of transferring in. And when I would visit other schools and see what they were teaching or not teaching, and then I would compare that back with the University of Maine and what I was getting for an education. I stayed and got what I think is an outstanding undergraduate education. And so from there, they really led me to a serious life of the mind. They involved me in their own research. They would take me to conferences with them. And so I got to see a hidden world, at least hidden from my sight. And I'll never forget my undergraduate teacher, Michael Palmer and Jim Warhola. Both of them were really instrumental in my formation, was reading a book. And I said, but what is that? And he said, oh, you have to get it. It's called Vindicating the Founders by Tom West. And I was an undergraduate at the time, and I think I told Tom the story. And of course, anyone who's familiar With Hillsdale knows that Tom is now my colleague and we teach together in the same department. But I still have my original copy of Dr. West's book Vindicating the Founders. And so I've always been in that, you know, aligned with our department and with Dr. Arne and his vision of liberal education. So Maine may seem like a random place disconnected from where I am today, but I really owe it to those two professors who opened my eyes and directed me.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Were you on the Augusta campus?

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

I was in the Orono campus. There is an Augusta campus. My family was from Augusta. But we mean, my brother and I. My elder brother and I went to the University of Maine at Orono, which is about an hour and 20 minutes north, and it's their flagship campus. And the law schools down in Portland and University of Mandarina is and probably still is mostly known for their excellent engineering programs. But at the time, my brother and I both thought, we're going to law school. Political science is where it's at. And I never imagined. In fact, I avoided the political theory course because I didn't know what it was. And I thought it's fluff. I wanted to do hardcore political science. You know, little did I know that one class on Plato's Republic was going to fundamentally change my life. And I look back and I don't think I. There's nothing I would change. I wouldn't be at Hillsdale today if it wasn't for that education.

[Hugh Hewitt]

You know, it's fascinating about education. By the way, their main law school is very good. I have a colleague, Professor Norkey, who teaches there. Their specialty is Arctic law, and they do everything to do with the law of the sea. They're very, very good on many, many things. I don't know the University of Maine well. And if you had Straussians at the University of Maine, I'm astonished. Were they Straussians?

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

They were Straussians. Now, Jim Warhola was Straussian friendly. His area was medieval church state relations. And he and Michael Palmer were just very good friends. And there was mutual respect. And I was introduced to medieval thought through Jim and Michael, and I consider them friends. It took me a long time to refer to them by their first name, but they insisted after I graduated. And Michael Palmer, definitely a Straussian. He had studied with Alan Bloom, I believe, at the University of Toronto. And he was. Both of them really were just exceptional teachers and they really set a high bar. I mean, I don't want to mention the names of the schools that I visited that I was accepted to when I was young and thinking, oh, I could do better. I'm going to go and transfer. I won't mention them, but I will say they're prestigious. And I just in one of them. I didn't even stay overnight as I was supposed to. I knew right away that what I was getting from the Straussians and from Jim Warhola at the University of Maine was just so much better. It was just richer. You know, I had Shakespeare in high school. I didn't appreciate him. You know, I never knew philosophy even existed until I got to University of Maine. And I don't know if you remember your first experience when you come into contact with a book that literally opens a lost world for you. It felt like Narnia to me. I just couldn't believe what I was reading.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Absolutely. Augustine's Confessions. And it. I wasn't taught by a Straussian, but then I figured out how to read it like a Straussian, you know, for our readers who are listeners who aren't out there, Leo Strauss is sort of the king of Straussland. And below him are these various princes, like Harvey Mansfield and Harry Jeff and Martin diamond and Nathan Tarkov and Alan Bloom might even be the deputy king. And I had Harvey Mansfield. I was never smart enough to be a Straussian. I'm just not. And I tell people that I'm a lawyer. That's why. Because I'm not starting up to be a Straussian. But it sure was dramatic to hear them lecture. To hear Harvey Mansfield lecture, that's like going to a concert. And I'm sure that was your experience with your professors. And do your students take to it this way?

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

They do. I mean, a lot of them who come to Hillsdale have. They're very religiously serious, morally serious. They love ideas. I mean, I was just speaking to our new hire, John Petrakos, in our politics department. He teaches Constitutional law and he comes from Notre Dame. He's taught. He was on the Print Princeton program with Robbie George. And he swears he's never seen anything like the Hillsdale students. I mean, I am teaching at any given moment at Hillsdale original texts that you would have to be at a very unique honors program at some other school, if you're lucky. And our students just get it in their general education there. And a lot of them take to. I mean, first of all, I'm not sure how familiar your audience is with what that even means. Straussian or Strauss?

[Hugh Hewitt]

Please explain. They're not. Assume that they're dumb.

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

Sure. So Leo Strauss was a German immigrant who came to the United States. And he had studied with Martin Heidegger, who many would consider one of the most important philosophers in the modern world, not necessarily morally serious. And there's a lot of problems with Martin Heidegger, among which was his affiliation with the Nazi party. But Strauss studied with some very formidable people in Germany. And when he came to the United States, I believe Harry Jaffa met him when Strauss taught at the New School in New York, and then when he went to the University of Chicago, that's where people like Nathan Tarkov and Alan Bloom, I believe, came into contact with him. Tom West, I believe, came into contact with him when Strauss moved toward the end of his life to Claremont. So what Straussianism means, if you were to just explain it as simply as possible, it's taking a look at ideas in ahistorical way. And I will tell you, when I was an undergrad, nothing exposed my modern prejudices than taking a course on, say, Plato's Republic. And every modern prejudice I had was exposed and made visible. And that's the first step towards self knowledge. Now what do I mean by that? I simply assume, like a lot of people, that if it's old, it's wrong, and that history just necessarily progresses and we intellectually and morally are superior to the past. That was certainly my belief. And as I was reading the Republic, which Straussians would take very seriously as a timeless work, as opposed to a work caught in the time capsule of its own historical era, which would mean, if true, there'd be no point in studying them other than just archaeological artifacts of previous errors. And so we place ourselves in a position of moral and intellectual superiority without knowing the roots of our own beliefs and our prejudices. So that was eye opening. I mean, when we got to Plato's Republic, we went through the cave, the allegory of the cave and the divided line, I was for the first time put into contact with a book that predates Christianity, that obviously predates the American founding, that took very seriously timeless truths and also man's longing for immortality, to find something eternal in his life. And man, once you're bit by that, there's no going back. And so when you say Straussian approach to education, it primarily means looking at ideas as if they're timeless and as a mirror to exposing one's own limitations. And so at the end of the day, its ultimate aim is self knowledge. And so. And that ran against everything else I heard at the time. When I was an undergraduate, I remember taking a philosophy class and being completely turned off by it. After my encounter with the Republic taught in this way, the first thing the professor said is, well, we're not going to really study anything ancient like Plato and Aristotle, because they were wrong. We were never shown why they were. There was no argument, but I immediately recognized the prejudice that I at one point had myself.

[Hugh Hewitt]

When I come back with Dr. Habib, we're going to pick up there because it's a great intro to Strauss and Shakespeare with some Montesquieu thrown in. That's this week and next week. And the Shakespeare for those of you who want to read ahead is the Henry VI trilogy and Richard iii. Don't go anywhere. Stay tuned. I'm Hugh Hewitt. This is the Hillsdale Dialogue, all [e-mail]

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

this show is a part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to your favorite. You'll get brand new episodes of all your favorite shows sent right to your device and you'll help us know that you're out there listening. Never miss another episode by going to Podcast Hillsdale. Edu subscribe. That's Podcast Hillsdale. Edu subscribe or click the Follow or Subscribe button on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or or YouTube.

[Bill Gray]

Hi there, it's Bill Gray from Hillsdale College. Before you skip ahead, can I ask you a question or two? If you could teach 50 million Americans one thing, what would it be? Would you teach our great American story that this nation is unique, founded on self government and individual liberty? Maybe you would teach the truth about free enterprise, how hard work and opportunity allow anyone to rise? Or would you teach the gospel and the Christian faith that helps us live good and meaningful lives? At Hillsdale College, we're doing exactly that, teaching the best that's been thought and said. Through our free online courses, K12 programs, InPrimus podcasts and more, we reach and teach millions every year with the principles of liberty that make America free. And with your help, we can reach even more. Your tax deductible gift today will help us teach millions more people to pursue truth and defend liberty. Just text the word give to 7 1844. You'll get a secure link to make your donation in seconds. That's give to 718 44. Thank you for standing with us. Now back to the show.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. The Hillsdale Dialogue is underway. All things hillsdalesdale.edu. all prior dialogues are collected at hughforhillsdale.com Dr. Cole Khalil Habib is my guest. Dr. Habib is a professor at Hillsdale College in political theory in the first segment, and we're doing this week and next Week Today, because I'm going to be gone next week. Dr. Arn is gone. We're talking about Shakespeare, Montesquieu, Leo Strauss, and we're starting with Straussianism and Dr. Abib. I said when we went out to break, not a lot of Straussians will be very forthcoming about what it is that they do and why they do it. That's been my experience over 50 years. You're different. Why is that?

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

Well, it stems from my own personal experience. I mean, when I first came into contact with Straussian education, it liberated me from the idea that the here and now is necessarily superior to the past. And there's certainly obviously some advancements. I mean, the Federalists talk about advancements in political science. So it's not that we don't think that progress can be made in certain areas, but what I found liberating and why I've been very open with my students, because I want to replicate that experience that was transformative for me. Once I came to realize that I was living a life ignoring and not taking seriously the idea that truth can be accessible to human beings and it's necessary to live a good and morally and philosophically serious life. Then the question becomes, well, which path should one take? And Strauss very famously has the formula Jerusalem in Athens, and in other words, the tradition of faith and reason. And for me, and I spent decades really wrestling with that, and I didn't know why he put it in terms of attention. And it was really when I started studying medieval thought where I wanted to know, I mean, as a Christian myself, as a Catholic specifically, not that it's relevant. I mean, you could be Jewish, Protestant, doesn't matter. I wanted to know why this dichotomy and why did he see an inherent tension in it. He believed that philosophy means the autonomy of human reason, and faith would mean what it says, taking a leap of faith in trust in God. And so that really made me want to turn to medieval thought. And it wasn't an academic interest at all. It was genuinely, I don't know what you want to call it, existential or religious. And I studied everything. I spent five years studying Maimonides Guide to the Perplexed with a rabbi friend of mine who has a PhD in philosophy, Josh Golding, who I absolutely adore. And then I spent years and years reading the Muslim philosophers and genuinely coming at it from the point of view like, okay, whoever makes sense to me will make sense to me. I'll just follow the arguments and see where the truth takes me. And then it was spending several years doing a real deep dive in Aquinas summa that really tied it together.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Now, how do we define it? Because yesterday, believe it or not, I had to spend two or three hours researching the public, the common law tort, and the common law crime of misconduct in public office, which is not a statutory crime in England, but it's what Andrew Mountbatten Windsor has been charged with. And I went deeper and deeper. The thing starts in 1100. It's really remarkable. Its first cases on record are in 1600. There's so much to learn about misconduct in public office that's got nothing to do with statute. I was lost. How did you get lost in medievalism?

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

Oh, well, first of all, it's very easy to get lost in medievalism. There's really two ways to look at it. One, you can look at medievalism politically and for us, with respect to Christendom, that would refer to the feudal era, and that essentially really begins across Europe after the collapse of the Roman Empire. So when you look at, for example, the very end of Montesquieu's Book of the Spirit of the Laws, he is very much interested in feudalism. Tocqueville's reflections on the French Revolution are interested in feudalism. And by medieval, for them, they're referring to the phenomenon of decentralized government with a very pronounced church, pronounced aristocracy and the monarchy. Medievalism, with respect to philosophy and theology refers not so much to the political side, but rather the belief that faith and reason are either in harmony or in conflict. And so they tend to look more at the theological and medieval begins intellectually anyway with the emergence of the Bible, with the Old Testament and Socrates or Plato. And you have what at first appears to be competing claims about the autonomy of the human intellect, the duties and loyalty that one owes to their faith and to God and what ends up happening. And I think, and I don't know really where Strauss ultimately what motivated him, but I know that the effect it had on me was it created an antinomy attention. And I believe he had a Platonic intention with that. And what I mean by that is by drawing a sharp contrast between them, almost to the point where they appear irreconcilable, he forces you to think about what a contradiction is. And that is very Socratic. That's what Plato does throughout all of his dialogues. Every single one of them ends with what seems like an irreconcilable problem. And there's A pedagogical reason to do that. The mind is not created to live in contradiction. Its purpose is to understand and to have and possess a self evident truth. And so when you're confronted with a square circle, obviously you stop and pause and start to think. So I don't know what his intentions were, but I know that almost everything Strauss touched always led to a Platonic end. There was always some kind of tension. Modernity is great, but it's in tension with the ancients.

[Hugh Hewitt]

So when your students get up there to Hillsdale and they find Professor Habib, what are they signing up for? I mean, what do you teach them? In what order? And what order do you want them to take the courses?

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

Sure. Well, thankfully that's laid out by our core in general. And because I'm in the politics department, most of my teaching consists of our required course, the U.S. constitution. I'm teaching a course now on Shakespeare and Montesquieu, but I've taught Tocqueville and Islamic thought and you name it. And what I do want my students to get out of my classes, and I believe, you know, I'm successful in doing this, I always present the books, no matter what I'm teaching, as though they're absolutely true. And I make sure that they all contradict each other, that there's a debate, a dialogue going between them, between the authors, and. And so it doesn't really matter if they take them in a chronological order or not. They could start in early modern. But any great early modern or late modern thinker is already in dialogue with previous thinkers. So there is a way to go backwards, you know, so to speak. So that was my case. I. I was infatuated with Machiavelli and Hans.

[Hugh Hewitt]

That's where I started. No, I started with,

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

with Mansfield. Right. And if you read those books carefully, they point you in the direction of the past because they want to vindicate their arguments in light of their interlocutors who went before them. And so it almost doesn't matter where you start. I think it's more important where you end. And I think the purpose really of a liberal education, at least that, as we presented at Hillsdale, is to put students into contact with the most challenging, rigorous set of ideas, whether it's in the English department, politics, philosophy, because we know they're coming with moral and intellectual seriousness. And the best thing you could do for them is to show them the many paths that they can take to pursue something that they're genuinely interested in.

[Hugh Hewitt]

No thin gruel, all meat and potatoes at Hillsdale. I'm going to turn to Henry 6 after this and to Richard III. So don't go anywhere. This is part one. Part two will be next week with Professor Khalil Habib of Hillsdale. All things [e-mail]. all of these dialogues collected at you for hillsdale.com stay tun. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Dr. Kahlil Habib is my guest of hillsdale, hillsdale edu. We're about to plunge in to Henry vi and Richard III. Now when I got the outline from Dr. Habib, my eyes rolled back in my head because I haven't read, I think, Henry Six, part three in 25 years and I've only heard Richard III. So I'm like completely unprepared. Normally you give me a book, I can read a book, but I can't get up to speed. And we got lots of Steelers fans, Dr. Habib. So they don't even know who Henry VI is. And Richard III might be the left tackle. Why don't you tell them what we're going to do? Then we'll do it. Then we'll tell them what we did.

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

Sure. So the Henry Sixx plays and as you said at the outset of the show, is a trilogy that Shakespeare wrote that is part of a long and very complicated history that shows the emergence of the English speaking peoples. Now, I know you and Dr. Arne Love Churchill as you should, and Churchill absolutely loved Shakespeare and loved the English history plays and in some ways I think he might have even modeled some of his writings after Shakespeare. So they're not that foreign to your audience, unfortunately. And I don't know why Richard VI is hardly read or studied today. Everybody knows Richard iii. Everybody knows Hamlet, everybody knows Romeo and Juliet. But the Henry VI plays, though, are part of a much longer series of plays that begin with King John, the play King John and then they end with Henry viii. And writers like Montesquieu who celebrated the English constitution, I've started noticing, are drawing a lot of their understanding of English customs and English institutions from those plays. So I was attracted to those plays for a reason. I really wanted to understand the American cultural inheritance that our founders brought with them. Let me just say one quick comment about the importance of Shakespeare, though, for an American audience. Alexis de Tocqueville came to the United States around the time of Andrew Jackson's presidency and he makes the following observation which I think is incredibly important for us today, and that is no matter where he traveled in the country, he always found in Any log home across this great country, he said, the complete works of Shakespeare. And then later in his book In Democracy in America, he makes the suggestion that Americans should really remain in intellectual contact with England because he believed and traced the spirit of American liberty to what he said. And this is quoting Tocqueville, pre Tudor England. And so where you're going to find Shakespeare discussing that, and you're going to find them in those English history plays. They're long, they're very complicated. We've never lived under king, so it's a bit of a foreign form of government for us. But when you read them, it becomes very obvious that they share a lot of the same themes that are in the Federalist Papers. The cause of factions, religious persecution, conflicts between France and England, etc. So the Henry VI plays, to put them simply, is Henry VI is the most pious of the English kings. He is the son of Henry V who managed to bring church and state together.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Oh, yeah, happy few, we band of brothers. The warrior king.

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

That's exactly right. And so he also, in a way, redefines Christianity for the English. He speaks not in terms of a universal brotherhood of man, but in speeches like the Saint Crispin's Day speech and elsewhere, Henry V speaks of the great nation of England. So what you're watching and reading in those plays is the emergence of a uniquely English constitution. And by that I don't simply mean its laws, but literally, like what something is constituted of. And so what happens, though, is Henry V manages to reclaim lands in France. He's truly an extraordinary ruler. He is tough, but he's fair. He kicks out a friend of his name, Sir John Falstaff, from whom he learned a lot. It's obvious that Falstaff is modeled after some kind of Socratic parody. They banter and it's clear that they have a battle of wits and that they're very good friends. But in the end, when Henry V, Henry VI's father, becomes king, he essentially kicks Falstaff out because there is a morally degenerate and subversive quality to him. And Henry V is interesting in trying to unite throne and altar again and restore monarchy after his own father, Bolingbroke, Henry iv, had usurped the crown from Richard ii, who was a divine right of king.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Professor, we'll come back to this after the break. When I was doing my Looney Tunes. Madcap, get ready for this. There are about four or five different representations of Henry Virginia. He's weak, he's strong, he's cuckolded. He's a lunatic. He's mentally deficient. He's got daddy syndrome because his dad dies young. He got these bad uncles. When we come back, give us what you think of him. Not what the plays tell us, but what you think of him so that we can interpret him as we go through it with the plays. And everybody's got a view of Richard iii. Humpback, bad man, murderer, killed the princess in the tower. We'll cover all that. Go anywhere, America. I'm uua.

[Bill Gray]

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[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. The Hillsdale Dialogue underway this week with Dr. Khalil Habib. He teaches political theory and Shakespeare at Hillsdale. I'm sure if you're going to go to Hillsdale, you'll take him, given his reputation. So I left you with a question, Dr. Habib, what do you think of Henry with all the biography in the Shakespeare play? Not with Shakespeare, but what do you think of him?

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

I think he represents a misalignment between soul and office. His wife says he should have been a pope. He himself says he wishes he could have been a priest. He's really not fit for the task of a monarch. His father was, but he wasn't. And I think the greater sort of framework of this whole series of plays is the problem with it, with hereditary monarchy. We can't lose sight of the fact that at the end of the day, Shakespeare really has very strong republican leanings. It shows you what happens when hereditary monarchy rules the day. You have somebody who really should have been part of the clergy. And then you have clergy who really should have been part of political scene. For example, Winchester is duplicitous. And in the case of his father, his father was the perfect alignment with soul and office. So I think you have to see him in light of the political problem that Shakespeare is trying to get us to think about. And it's not. It's one I believe misreading of the play is. I've often heard people say, well, he's weak. And because he's so Christian. And therefore Christianity should play no role in politics. That is just completely off the mark. Because Aquinas has no problem with a Christian king serving his people in the commonwealth. Even if it means war and punishing criminals. The problem with Henry VI is that he really has the soul of a priest. Because Aquinas also says priests shouldn't be in war and they shouldn't be in government. They should be in the church.

[Hugh Hewitt]

How do you avoid misalignment in a hereditary monarchy? Because you're going to get who you get.

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

Well, that's. I think that's the question that Shakespeare is provoking us to think about. And I think if you look at it carefully, it's pretty clear he has a lot of republican leanings. And what I mean by that. He shows you, for example, like Aristotle, the nature of the people in relation to the aristocracy. When an aristocracy becomes an oligarchy. And its depiction of Julius Caesar, I think, also reveals Shakespeare's republicanism. If you read Caesar's own writings, he's extraordinary. But when you look at Caesar as Shakespeare depicts him, he's not. He's actually an old senile buffoon. And I think that what Shakespeare is really trying to show us in these plays is exactly what you just said. How do you avoid it? And the problem is, you can't avoid it. The play King John is another example. The legitimate king is months old.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Let's talk about his uncles in the four minutes we have left until we'll do Richard III next week. But he's got all these people around him. His wife, his uncles. To whom does someone who's misaligned turn, or aren't they just abdicate?

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

No, that's an excellent question. He abdicates, and he leans heavily on his uncle Gloucester, who is the Lord Protector. And now he has judgment. Gloucester is actually a morally serious man. He represents justice and the law. But the problem is Henry really can't think for himself and he can't judge for himself. He's really decent. But as a result of his incapacity to fill the role of that office, he ends up either leaning on his wife or on Gloucester or on Winchester, who represents the Church at the time and who has designs on the throne. And so it's just a recipe for disaster. I mean, by the time you're done with this play, you're struck by how you can only conclude that there's something fundamentally flawed. With a hereditary monarchy. It leads to civil war, it leads to bad leadership. And Shakespeare forces you to consider that maybe merit, rather than birth, should determine somebody's role in office.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Well, doesn't it also bring forth Joan of Arc, though? I mean, it might bring forth bad things for England, but it brings forth Joan of Arc for France.

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

Yeah, and Joan of Arc is interesting. She's got a foil in the English history plays by the name of Talbot. He's the English hero, and Joan is there to show us the contrast between France and England. And the question that I always ask is, why does France need Joan and why does England need Talbot? If you look at the way Shakespeare presents it, you've got a tale of a centralized authority, an absolute monarchy in France, where the men and the aristocracy have no independence beyond the will of the king. And so consequently, the most manly person in that side of the pond is Joan. In England, you have Talbot's because it's so deeply decentralized that it unfortunately leads to factions, but it also leads to extraordinary military men like Henry V himself, Talbot and others. And that's a nice pairing that Shakespeare does, because I think he wants to show you these two extremes. Decentralization in England and centralization in France. And why the characters in France are the way they are. They really stem from the regime and its principles.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Last question for this hour. Did he offend when he wrote the Henry trilogy?

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

Did I?

[Hugh Hewitt]

What Did Shakespeare offend anyone?

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

Oh, that's a good question. No, I don't think so. Because I think another intention of these plays is to vindicate the Tudors, because Richard III is really the scourge that God sends to clean up the house of the Plantagenets. And so it tees up beautifully, the rise of the Tudors. So, and I'm not suggesting he did that so that he can acquiesce, you know, to flatter the court or whatever. I think he really does think that there was a healthy movement away from these Plantagenet lines to something like Tudoring.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And very last question. My Late great friend Dr. David Allen White would argue with me for hours that Shakespeare was Catholic. And it's obvious. What do you think?

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

I think it's ambiguous. It really depends on the play and I think. And how you read him. Like I said, some people could read those English history plays and say, well, no, he's showing you he's actually not even. And not Catholic. It's doubtful that he's even Christian. Look at the way he's presenting the most Christian king. But my response would be that at any time in that medieval period, everyone would have known Aquinas. And Aquinas was very clear. There is no conflict between Christianity and politics. What you have in those plays is an examination of the problems that are inherent in hereditary monarchy, not in Christianity, because there are plenty of excellent Christianity, rulers and priests and people throughout Shakespeare's English history plays. So I don't. I think there's some room there to see him as Catholic or at least sympathetic. And like I said, he takes the English history plays only up until Henry viii and I think shows you the contributions that the church, if anything, played in actually laying the framework for modern England.

[Hugh Hewitt]

To Richard third next week. He'll be back. Dr. Habib. Khalil. Khalil Habib will be back with us next week. Don't go anywhere, America, except maybe over to Hillsdale Edu and find out if Dr. Habib has actually taped any of the Hillsdale dialogue courses. I'm not sure. I'll ask him next week. Stay tuned. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. I Hope you've enjoyed Dr. Khalil Habib today in the absence of Both me and Dr. Arnold, and I got ahold of him last week and what a perfect set. Next week is going to be amazing. Either Dr. Arnold will be back or you'll get part two of Dr. Habib. I do want to tell you about the American Revolution though we are in the 250th anniversary and the American Revolution did not just happen. It wasn't just a series of events that, you know very, very nicely took place. Hillsdale is doing their effort to make sure that that is not what you believe. Go and visit hillsdale.edu. you'll find out that the colonists did not just wake up one day and decide, oh, we're going to have a revolution. Hillsdale has a brand new miniseries, it's free on colonial America. You want to find out what it was like from 1607. Is that the time that Jamestown is founded right up through 1776. Hillsdale 6 part documentary Hillsdale College professors are going to teach you the religious, political, cultural and economic ideas that shaped the uniquely American culture during the colonial period. You'll learn why is there an idea about liberty, especially religious liberty, inspired by the settlers who crossed the Atlantic to preserve and practice their faith as they wanted. They'll learn how Americans organized their local governments in the time of colonial governors. But there were also colonial parliaments. There was the House of Burgess. There were other all sorts of representative institutions institutions at that time. You'll find out where America is a land of virtue and always has been, always upheld virtue. We are a country of a moral people and our Constitution is made for a moral people. You've heard me say that. So right now go to HughForHillsdale.com to enroll in this course. HughForHillsdale.com no cost, easy to get started. All you have to do is go to hillsdale.com to register and you'll learn more about colonial America in advance of our 250th. Do not miss this course. Hughforhillsdale.com.

[Dr. Khalil Habib]

Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to Hillsdale. Eduardo.