The Rhetoric of Donald Trump

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Hillsdale Dialogues

Episode: The Rhetoric of Donald Trump
Host: Hugh Hewitt
Guest: Dr. Larry P. Arnn, President of Hillsdale College
Date: April 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of the Hillsdale Dialogues features a wide-ranging conversation between Hugh Hewitt and Dr. Larry P. Arnn. The primary theme is an analysis of Donald Trump’s rhetoric, with related explorations of the Middle East conflict, the U.S. military’s recent rescue mission, changes in the presidential cabinet, debates over birthright citizenship, and the deepening polarization of American politics. The tone is thoughtful, sometimes wry, and always grounded in historical context and the liberal arts tradition of Hillsdale College.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recent Developments at Hillsdale College (00:31 – 04:13)

• The beauty and community spirit of Hillsdale’s Christ Chapel receives praise, particularly during Good Friday services.
• Dr. Arnn highlights ongoing campus construction, emphasizing the importance of creating and preserving beautiful things even amid global turmoil.
• Recognition for Hillsdale alumni making strides in national media, including recent moves to the Wall Street Journal.

2. Middle East Conflict & U.S. Military Action (04:49 – 09:34)

• Context: As the episode is recorded, President Trump is expected to make a significant announcement regarding the Middle East conflict, specifically targeting Iranian infrastructure if deadlines are not met.
• Dr. Arnn notes that, while outcomes are “impossible to predict,” U.S. action has already set back Iranian war-making power and improved relations with Gulf states.
• The American position as an energy exporter shifts global leverage.
• The conversation highlights the complexity of ending military conflicts and the strategic aim of strengthening allies.

Notable Quote:

“One of the definite good things that have happened here so far is the war-making power of Iran is set back, and that's good. ... Our relations with the Gulf states seem to have been thriving.”
— Dr. Arnn (05:45)

3. Extraordinary Rescue Mission of Downed Airmen (12:48 – 18:12)

• Hugh Hewitt expresses awe at the recent operation rescuing downed airmen in the Middle East, comparing it favorably to the famed Entebbe operation.
• Dr. Arnn relays details from military commentators (Ward Carroll, Jack) and expresses admiration for the scale—over 70 aircraft, zero American casualties, and sophisticated coordination.
• Noteworthy are the elite skill sets of specialized rescue teams, the use of various aircraft, and the strategic destruction of abandoned equipment.
• The event is seen as a morale boost and a demonstration of American prowess to allies and adversaries.

Notable Quotes:

“We went and got that guy and a lot of people were involved. … We left one or two C130s or one or two little birds, couldn't get them out. And so we bombed them from the air into smithereens.”
— Dr. Arnn (16:30)

4. Implications for International Relations (18:12 – 19:16)

• U.S. messaging to Gulf states is changing, moving away from a doctrine of forcing democracy toward pragmatic partnerships and mutual prosperity.
• Trump's apparent policy shift: U.S. security focus is narrowed; not all global safety depends on U.S.-imposed democracy.

Notable Quote:

“We're not saying that the only security for us is democracy everywhere in the world. ... That makes for infinite warfare.”
— Dr. Arnn (18:21)

5. Classical vs. Trumpian Rhetoric (20:40 – 24:42)

• Hewitt prompts: Trump's rhetoric is unconventional, non-classical.
• Dr. Arnn acknowledges Trump's methods as uniquely effective: self-centered, prone to superlatives and repetition, but fundamentally sincere to his audience.
• Trump is compared to past presidents, noting a lack of filter and self-restraint not seen since Lincoln’s deliberately unsent letters.
• Political communication now lacks the traditional bureaucratic caution.

Notable Quotes:

“President Trump's rhetoric is effective. Never mind that it puts a lot of people off. It attracts more.”
— Dr. Arnn (21:20)

“He uses the fact that he transgresses that [political] artfully.”
— Dr. Arnn (23:37)

6. Role of Attorney General & Recent Cabinet Changes (26:45 – 31:13)

• Discussion of the complexities and requirements for the Attorney General position following recent changes in Trump’s cabinet.
• The need for loyalty, legal skill, and the ability to balance presidential agendas with fidelity to law.
• Parallels are drawn to the responsibilities of a college president and general counsel during crises.

Notable Quotes:

“You have to pursue [the President’s aims] legally and that takes artfulness. You need to be a really good lawyer.”
— Dr. Arnn (28:01)

7. Debate Over Birthright Citizenship (31:13 – 33:39)

• Hewitt and Arnn discuss the intent of the 14th Amendment.
• Arnn references the historical record, suggesting that allegiance (not just birthplace) was intended as the basis for citizenship.
• Hewitt counters that longstanding practice and public meaning protect birthright citizenship for all but children of diplomats.

Notable Quotes:

“If you owe loyalty to another nation, then your children are not automatically citizens. ... You have not gone through the process of transferring your loyalty to the United States of America.”
— Dr. Arnn (32:00)

8. Polarization and Evolution of the Democratic Party (35:01 – 37:06)

• Observation that the Democratic Party is moving further left, resembling European-style politics.
• A nostalgic look at previous eras’ bipartisanship (Reagan/O’Neill), now replaced by deep divisions.
• Arnn attributes growing partisanship to truly fundamental philosophical divides about the nature of rights and the social contract.

Notable Quotes:

“The questions involved are very big. ... They reach right down directly to what is a human being, how many sexes do they come in, what are their rights, what are the sources of their rights?”
— Dr. Arnn (35:46)

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On Trump’s Style:
  “Here's a guy who talks about himself all the time and only has one kind of adjective—the superlative. ... I've never seen anybody try before to that extent.”
  — Dr. Arnn (21:20)

• On the Rescue Mission:
  “Precision bombing is a major development in human history.”
  — Dr. Arnn (16:30)

• On Political Loyalty and Counsel:
  “One part of [doing it successfully] would be not going to jail.”
  — Dr. Arnn (29:33)

• On Partisan Polarization:
  “We used to at least pay lip service to a time ... we love the stories about Tip O'Neill. ... Those days are not with us these days. And that's sad.”
  — Dr. Arnn (35:46)

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Important Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------- |--------------| | Hillsdale campus & alumni | 00:31–04:13 | | Middle East war discussion | 04:49–09:34 | | Rescue mission analysis | 12:48–18:12 | | Impact on global adversaries | 18:12–19:16 | | Trump’s rhetoric | 20:40–24:42 | | Attorney General role | 26:45–31:13 | | Birthright citizenship debate | 31:13–33:39 | | Democratic Party and polarization | 35:01–37:06 |

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Tone & Closing Thoughts

The dialogue is intellectually rich, blending humor and seriousness. Dr. Arnn’s insights leverage both classical education and real-world experience, whether discussing military affairs, the nature of rhetoric, or the roots of American citizenship. He regularly grounds contemporary issues in historical perspective.

Hewitt and Arnn agree that the U.S. and its allies stand at significant crossroads—militarily, politically, and culturally—underscored by the ongoing transformation in the rhetoric and strategy of American presidents, the intensifying partisanship in Congress, and the deep questions of national identity. The conversation ends on a note of caution and historic reflection: "fundamental things are afoot," and the weeks ahead, both for the nation and for deliberative dialogue, will be consequential.

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For further listening and resources:

• Listen to the full episode at Hillsdale Dialogues
• Explore all Dialogues: hughforhillsdale.com

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Transcript

[Podcast Narrator]

Every week, Hillsdale College President Larry Arne joins Hugh Hewitt to discuss great books, great men and great ideas. This is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio,

[Hugh Hewitt]

Morning Glory and Evening Grace America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Welcome to the Hillsdale Dialogue, the last broadcast hour of the week. As is usual when we are Blessed, we have Dr. Larry Orne with us today. He's the president of Hillsdale College. All things Hillsdale at hillsdale. Edu, including your application for next year, all of you rising seniors, including online courses for everyone in this audience that they ought to be taking, including a new one on classical rhetoric and all the prior Hillsdale Dialogues going back a decade now, all [e-mail] in the next two weeks, not today, in the next two weeks, we will finish the Gathering storm this book. So do not miss the next two two weeks. But we are taking a break from that. We are also taping on Tuesday before the deadline President Trump set at 8pm So I want to let you know that we're working under that constraint this week because of both of our schedules. Dr. Arne, how was your Easter?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Hillsdale, Michigan, good place to have Easter. Yeah. Easter is, of course, very sad until right at the end, but it was a great Easter.

[Hugh Hewitt]

I am curious about Easter services in that beautiful chapel. Does your music program go all in?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Oh, yeah. We. So first of all, there's a really, really great thing. Hillsdale College, as you probably know, is all Christian denominations are thriving at Hillsdale College. So we don't have Sunday morning services in our chapel, but on Good Friday, there's a big alliance of churches that we help to organize around here, and they have a good Friday noon service. And it's just the chapel is full, lots of people in it. And of course, everybody looks up and stares at it because it's the most beautiful building around. And it's just a very fun thing. And it's a college community thing.

[Hugh Hewitt]

I would encourage anyone driving through Southern Michigan, even if you're not looking for a college for your student or you're not a student, just stop and see the chapel because it's astonishing. The campus is also beautiful with wonderful statues throughout an incredible history. But the chapel is remarkable in America, probably the equal of any chapel anywhere in America. You and there are a few beautiful ones by the same architect, Dominic Strike. Did I get his first name right or is it Duncan Strike?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Duncan.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Duncan. All right. But it's truly he may Be the best guy working in America. Is he doing your new buildings, by the way? Dr. Ern?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

He's doing a war memorial right now. We're building a library. We've just finished a master's of classical education building. And, and it's going to be beautiful. I mean, the, the master's classical is beautiful. It's just if you face the chapel, the building immediately to the east or the left, west or left, sorry. And then the library to the right of the chapel is the student union and just beyond that is the library that we are greatly expanding and giving it a classical look throughout. And it's. Those two things are going to be, I mean, our quad is very beautiful. Soon to be harmonious and beautiful and more beautiful.

[Hugh Hewitt]

We have, we have serious things to talk about. We have to talk about destroying things in a moment. So I want to make sure we lift up the fact that beautiful things are being built in the world, especially at Hillsdale College. I also want to lift up the fact a second of your alumni, Philip Wegman, joined the Wall Street Journal this week and I was talking to him offline. You're taking Hillsdale graduates are taking over media. I'm very, very pleased with this.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, a lot of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Phil Wegman is a great kid and I'm in class and his brother too, and he's thriving. I remember he's what he's worked for real clear Politics, I think, in several outlets. And he got admitted to the presidential briefings in, in the White House and that was a big deal. And of course, you know, in my line of work, you get to watch them grow up and they go on and do great things. And I remember Phil and I corresponded when he found out he was going to get to do that and I was so excited for him. And now he's at the Wall Street

[Hugh Hewitt]

Journal, so I think just rolling. He is now at the best news platform in America, as is Jack Butler over at their editorial page to Hills Aliens. So your, your effort to take over the world is proceeding pace. Now let's turn to the very serious stuff tonight at 8pm, which we will be broadcasting this on Friday. There's a deadline that President Trump has reemphasized all the bridges and the power plants get blown up. Those are not war crimes, by the way. They're all dual use. I just want to assure people who have been reading left wing blogs and hysterical commentators. Bridge is a classic. Bridge over the River, Toco Ri or the bridge of Toko Ri and Bridge over the River Kwai. These are all traditional military targets as our power plants used by the irgc. What do you make of the reaction to the threat? And we're out on prediction limb here. I think he's going to do it. What do you think, Dr. Arn?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, I'm happy to report that I don't know. And, and we can't know. And I do, I'm of the opinion that he understands that we can't know of the war effort so far. It's just awesome. The hardest part, more than 50% of success is at the end. And how do we end it? One way to end it is. I mean, first of all, there are some definite good things that have happened here so far that are beyond question. One of them is the war making power of Iran is set back and that's good. They use it to attack us and friends of ours. A second thing is our relations with the Gulf states seem to have been thriving. And I think that's partly because there's something really good going on in some of those Gulf states. They have diminished their support and some of them ended their support of the crazy forms of Islam. They're not all as crazy as some are and some of them are probably not crazy, but I'm not expert enough to be sure of that. It's certainly a very big and important thing and it ain't going to go away. And so it's nothing good for the world if it moderates. And so one possible end, I mean, first of all, we've got those two things and those are good. The question of the Strait of Hormuz cuts in two different directions because of all the great powers in the world, we're the ones who need it the least. And this has given Trump an opportunity to make a point more forcefully that he's been making ever since he emerged into politics. And that is the people closest to the danger, most affected by the danger, need to carry the main burden of the danger, or at least they need to pitch in as much as they can. And strain of hormones is a very hard nut to crack, I think, and they should crack it and maybe we should help them crack it. So I even think. But I don't know. First of all, we don't know. It's a very fluid situation. The President is talking to us and to the Iranians at the same time. And everything he says is conditioned by that combination. And so that's why I don't know what he's going to say tonight or do tonight. I think one strategy that's appealing to me for ending the war, is walking away and continuing to build up the Gulf states. And I think, by the way, I read a very intelligent thing the other day and remember, the word intelligent is not the same thing as true because these are all things that are hard to know. Right. But this intelligent thing that I read said that we have actually gained massive leverage in the world because we're an energy exporter. And the main competitive world regions in the world that compete with us on that are Venezuela, whose disposition has changed, and the Gulf states. And both of them are sort of brought round to a better place, at least Venezuela. So the point is maybe we've gotten stronger from this. That's to be proved and seen with time. But that's one of the ways you judge a war. Are you stronger after it's over or are you weaker?

[Hugh Hewitt]

And I think it's going to be very hard for us to emerge weaker from this. But I think it could go on. I've been telling my friends I expect it to be over in early June, but not before. And I think that includes cleanup. But I agree with you completely that he's talking to the Iranian people and the Iranian elite through his post, primarily to whomever is running that country during the rescue, which we'll talk about after the break. We hit a command bunker with more than 50 IRGC senior leaders in it because they weren't expecting in the middle of this command, this amazing search and rescue operation. They were not expecting the B2s to arrive from the Midwest of America and drop the massive ordnance penetrators on their super secret command bunker. That wasn't super secret. So for the third time in five weeks, they've had a mass casualty event among the leadership meeting. They don't learn. But we'll talk more about that right after the break. All things [e-mail]. of course, all the Hillsdale dialogues are found @q. For hillsdale.com, i'll be right back with Dr. Orange. Stay tuned.

[Podcast Narrator]

Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. On this week's program, we talk with Kelly Shackelford. He's president and CEO of First Liberty Institute. We'll talk about the current state of religious liberty in the United States States where it stands in the courts and his work on President Trump's religious liberty Commission. Also, if you like Kelly's, you're in luck. Dr. Kelly. Scott Franklin joins us too from the English department. Here at Hillsdale, we start a new series on Emily Dickinson this week focusing on death sets a thing significant. All that this week on the radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio, including YouTube.

[Jeremiah Regan]

Hello, this is Jeremiah Regan, executive director of Online Learning here at Hillsdale College, and I have some great news. We've brought Hillsdale's incredibly popular free online courses to the Hillsdale College Podcast Network and our next series is the American Left From Liberalism to Despotism, a course taught by Associate professor of Politics Kevin Slack and Hillsdale President Larry P. Arn. After listening to all 11 episodes, you'll have a deeper understanding of what has happened to America in the past 60 years and what we can do about it today. The Hillsdale College Online Courses Podcast, hosted by Online Learning Marketing Director Juan Davalos and me, expands Hillsdale's mission to provide all who wish to learn the education necessary to increase happiness and to preserve the civil and religious liberties of America. We want you to be a part of it at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu. Subscribe now to the Hillsdale College Online Courses Podcast to hear new episodes every week with additional commentary and insights from our team. Go to Podcast Hillsdale. Edu to learn more. That's podcast Hillsdale.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Edu. Welcome back America QQ IT with Dr. Larry Arn, President of Hillsdale College. Everything about Hillsdale is at Hillsdale.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Edu.

[Hugh Hewitt]

You can sign up at hillsdale. Edu for the Imprimis newsletter for all their I know dozens of free online courses that will make you smart and maybe wise and all of our previous Hillsdale dialogues are [e-mail] I want to ask you about your reaction to you had a child in the American military? I've had one in the American military. I still have a son in law and a nephew on active duty and I have never been more amazed in my lifetime. And Tebbe was always the greatest display of daring and moxie that I'd ever seen. But that was against Uganda and Israel had the element of surprise beyond any element of surprise. But I think this past weekend the rescue of these downed airmen was just astonishing. How did you react to it?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, I it's two days old now, but I watched there's a guy on YouTube named Ward Carroll.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Yep.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

He's got another guy named Jack who joined him and they what they are is old military jocks. I mean they're not that old, but they're retired out of the military.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Ward's younger than us. I know Ward. Ward's a fighter pilot.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, yeah, it's pretty amazing, you know, hearing these guys talk for an hour about what's going on. First of all, they know all the weapons. Second of all, they're getting intelligence all the time while they're talking. They call it that. And sometimes it's just something they read on X. And sometimes you'll hold up a paper that somebody sent him. And they know a lot of people who are involved and they're just marveling at this, Right. And you know, questions come up, like, apparently in the Air Force there's a team of people whose specialty is pilot rescue. That's what they do. And they're apparently very tough and very good at it. They go in harm's way. That's an expression they love. And they go in harm's way, you know, and there are a lot of people in the military who don't go in harm's way. So they make that distinction all the time. Well, I don't think those guys. Well, anyway, for some reason, maybe those guys were involved and maybe they weren't, but SEAL Team six was involved. And then we used Hercules and those are precious because we don't make anymore. And they're extremely versatile. And we didn't use the Osprey. And the Osprey is a marine mostly used plane. I think that. Yeah, take off plane and do 250 knots, which is some number bit higher than miles an hour, I think. And it can also hover, land up and down, straight. Why didn't they use the Osprey? Well, maybe it wasn't close enough. So they go on about all that. But the point is there were more than 70 aircraft involved in this thing. And we didn't take any casualties. There was a firefight in the middle of it. We used the big bombers, B1, they said, and we sealed off the area the best we could. There's still a firefight. And this colonel, still unnamed at this talking, he had a bad ankle, maybe broken, maybe sprained, and he went up 7,000ft in a mountain to hide in a crevice.

[Hugh Hewitt]

The detail, he had been knocked out. He had been out for hours when he woke up and then realized where he was and then got it together. He's not young, he's an 06. He's not a young guy.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, yeah. So he's a big deal, right? And he's a wizzo, weapons specialist, operator or something. And that's it. That's how they. And they got all these acronyms. And then once in a while intelligence will come in while these two guys are talking and. And 11 acronym in it, and they don't know what it is. And that's all fun, you know, because they know all the acronyms almost. And. Yeah, and. And we went and got that guy and a lot of people were involved. I mean, that means hundreds of people were involved actively there in the forms of attack. We don't make C130s anymore, and we haven't settled on a replacement yet. And then also we used little birds, which are little bitty helicopters that are very lethal and carry six or eight troops at a time and carry some guns. So we use that in the C130s and then we use something else. It's a lighter, more modern version of the C130 that doesn't carry as much stuff. And so we had to leave some stuff. And the point is. Yeah, and the stuff we left, they had pictures of it. We destroyed it. We left one or two C130s or one or two little birds, couldn't get them out. And so we bombed them from the air into smithereens and darned if they didn't have a picture of that. And it looked like devastation itself. So, you know, precision bombing is a major development in human history and impact

[Hugh Hewitt]

on our adversaries not named Iran. Dr. Iron, we got two minutes to the break. What do you think is the impact on our adversaries not named Iran of doing that mission?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, I think the Gulf states are important and I think Trump knows that. And I have learned since he gave a speech that I liked a long time ago, months ago, after he got reelected, he went over there and he gave a really tour to four speech with a room full of Arabs in Qatar, I think. And he said, you know, you guys have done great things here according to your principles. We're doing great things. We're going to trade, we're going to get along, we're going to all get more prosperous. And if anybody tries to hurt my country, I'm going to kill them. That was more or less a speech and it was kind of a new and I want to make this point, what's different about this Middle east war, whether it works out or not, and it may not, is that we are not saying that the only security for us is democracy everywhere in the world. You bet that is a good that beyond our power to produce and it makes for infinite warfare.

[Hugh Hewitt]

A recognition of a limiting principle that has gone unremarked upon, actually, until you just said it right now. Don't go anywhere, America. I'll be back with Dr. Aron right after this, except at Hillsdale. Edu or hugh4hillsdale.com welcome back, America. Dr. Larry Aharon is the president of Hillsdale College, which it is high season for admissions and I'm sure it's high season for disappointment up at Hillsdale and high season of appeals to the president. So Good luck there. Dr. Arn, do you get appeals to the president after admissions season decisions?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Always. I didn't used to, but now I do gotten kind of hard to get in. And I remember years ago, I said to the admissions counselor, I said, he said, how many applications do we want? I said, a lot. He said, how will we know when we have enough? I said, we probably never will. I said, but because, you know, it's I can tell you the conditions of success in higher education if you want, but it has very much to do with how bad you want to. In other words, there's a thing that we can all have if we choose to have, and that is an urgent wish to learn. And if we have that, we can learn anyway. I said, maybe I'll be able to tell when important people start calling me about their kids and I won't be able to help them. And that happens now.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Well, my friends who run colleges say the most difficult issues are alumni, children and parking for faculty. I don't think you have the latter problem. So let me move on to the next question. You have a brand new online course, Classical Logic and Rhetoric, which I would recommend everyone in the country to investigate over @hillsdale.edu. president Trump's rhetoric is not classical. He is a reality TV trained developer who uses truth, social and X. What do you make of his quote, rhetoric, since it's not classical?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, you can use the classical tools to analyze them. First of all, obviously, President Trump's rhetoric is effective. Never mind that it puts a lot of people off. It attracts more. I mean, in elections, at least more. It is unique in my knowing because here's a guy who talks about himself all the time and only has one kind of adjective, the superlative. I've never seen that before. And he makes that work better than anybody I've ever seen. I've never seen anybody try before to that extent. I have been fated in my life to sit directly in front of him four or five times and watch him give a speech. And I think I can tell that he means it. Here's what he means. I mean, first of all, he does have a wonderful sense of humor and a lot of what he says is for effect. And when I say he means it, I think he knows the difference, probably, because if you just watch his face when he's talking, there you are. If you're sitting there. I'm not an important man in the Trump administration. I just help him with the Declaration of Independence, but I mean around him. Song and I think he means it and I think he makes it work. And yeah, so he's very singular, maybe unique, I don't know. And I think he means it.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And that's one thing I'll add to that, I'll add Dr. Arndt, I've had the opportunity to interview him and question him in public more than 30 times. And I have learned he is very unique because he is unrestrained by the conventions that attend most politicians. And I think politicians are. Is a fine thing to be. I think you to aspire to want to be a political leader is a fine thing to be. But I've been rereading Battle Cry of Freedom by McPherson about World War II, about the Civil War. And Lincoln would always throw away the letters he'd write to people like George Meade because they became intemperate. This is not a problem or a restraint that President Trump feels. Do you agree with me on that?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, I think he uses the fact that he transgresses that artfully. I had an argument with a friend of mine. He's a good man and who was. And he is a never Trumper. And he said, how can you believe a word he says? And I said, well, there are two reasons. This is in a public argument, one time kind of debate. We had several hundred people there. I said, there are two reasons. I said, one is he's been saying the main things he's saying for as long as he's been talking about politics. And at that time, the earliest incidents I knew were in the late 80s. This is in 2015. The second reason is he does say it so outrageously that people get to thinking he means it. And that's a point. How do you like in politics, you know, when you're beset with controversy, every word you say and any word you say can echo around the world in an instant. One of the things you learn is kind of bureaucrates, you know, and repetition, which he uses.

[Hugh Hewitt]

He uses repetition. I'll be right back with Dr. R. Don't go anywhere except to Hilltail. Edu. We're going to talk birthright citizenship and the Attorney General right after this.

[Podcast Narrator]

You know the Robertson family from the hit TV show Duck Dynasty, Now Hillsdale College offers you the unique opportunity to learn alongside the Robertsons as they dive deep into Hillsdale's online course, the Genesis Story. Every Friday on the Unashamed podcast, the Robertsons will share their insights and perspectives. Learning from Hillsdale professor of English Justin Jackson. Take a trip down south to Louisiana for this one of a kind learning experience we call Unashamed Academy. Visit unashamedforhillsdale.com and enroll today. That's Unashamed. F O R hillsdale.com to experience the genesis story alongside the Robertsons. Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. On this week's program, we talk with Kelly Shackelford. He's president and CEO of First Liberty Institute. We'll talk about the current state of religious liberty in the United States, where it stands in the courts, and his work on President Trump's Religious Liberty Commission. Also, if you like Kelly's, you're in luck, Dr. Kelly. Scott Franklin joins us too from the English department here at Hillsdale. We start a new series on Emily Dickinson this week focusing on death sets a thing significant. All that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio, including YouTube.

[Hugh Hewitt]

Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh hewitt. Since last Dr. Arnold and I spoke on the Hillsdale dialogue, all things Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Edu There have been two major changes in the Cabinet. The Department of Homeland Security is now head by former Senator Mark Wayne Mullen. And the Attorney General is now Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche. Attorney General Pam Bondi out. I don't know any of the backstories. They're always more complicated than people know until you talk to the principals. But I do know that the job of being Attorney General requires great talent. It might be, I think, Dr. On the most important job in the Cabinet because the president can intuit and can override a Secretary of state or, or a Secretary of transportation. He can understand that. But when you talk to the attorney general, you're talking about the corpus of American law and the, the fact that we are Republican laws. And that individual has to be able to translate and persuade and he has not had great success with that, though Bill Barr got along with him fine till after the election of 2020 and then they fell out. What do you think he needs in the AG's office? I've worked for both Ed, Ed Meese and William French Smith. I know you can be a vastly different character and be a good Attorney General.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, well, I know Ed Meese well and met William Prince Smith, but Ed Meese was, you know, a friend of Ronald Reagan from early days. That's a good thing, especially if you, because you know, what you basically said is you have to know the law and you have to, you have to have the purposes of the president in your heart and mind to. And you have to pursue them legally and that takes artfulness. You need to be a really good lawyer. I, you know, I will tell you, I think Pam Bondi, I had a very high opinion of her and I don't know what all this is about. I do have a student who worked for him her in a high place and he admires her. So I have nothing but good words for her.

[Hugh Hewitt]

But I don't know.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

And I think he's looking for a highly skilled attorney who has his agenda in mind.

[Hugh Hewitt]

I don't want to stretch what the job of a college president is, but it's complex. It's got thousands of people depending upon it and you have to have a general counsel and outside counsel and they have to work with you, a non lawyer but who knows a lot about the law and they have to be able to be very, very specific about what you can and cannot do. And you've been through some perilous times when the governor of Michigan wanted to come after you and what did you want from your general counsel, which is what a president needs from their ag. What is the law and what I can do? Am I right about that?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Yeah, it depends on two circumstances. It depends on circumstances a lot. But you always want two things. One is you want to do what you want to do. You need to have reasons for that. And the other is you need to do it successfully. And one part of that would be not going to jail. And so, so, you know, I mean, there have been hints that I might be put in jail over the COVID stuff, but you know, you have to. And so you need a lawyer. I mean, I, alas, have had more to do with lawyers than I ever set out to do. You're one of them. But the best lawyers that I have worked with and very good one now several very good ones now they, you believe and they prove that they have the right intentions, including cooperating with you, who are ultimately responsible and also that they're very skilled in the law. And that means when they say no, you can believe them that that probably is the right answer and then you reason with them about it. But there's advice in all forms of administration because we're human beings and it crops up everywhere. Sometimes people try to use their position for their personal proclivities as against the mission and the larger good of the institution. And sometimes people try to use their position as a source of power in the institution. And when you sense that, it means you've got a problem.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And that brings us back to Smith and Meese. They were very selfless men, superb lawyers, served Reagan, served the country. Completely selfless, had no ambition. I want to begin the conversation about birthright citizenship, because I'm going to stake my position, which you're going to disagree with, I think, which is that original public meeting of the 14th Amendment was clearer. Forget the colloquy on the Senate floor that precedes it. But the public meaning was birthright citizenship, unless you're a diplomat. And that's how we applied it through the Great Migration, 1880 to 1920, and then we began to write statutes. And so I don't think the President has a snowball chance of winning this lawsuit. And at best it'll be 7:2 upholding birthright citizenship. But what say you?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, I don't know how they're going to vote. I don't. I'm not optimistic about that. I think that the. The 14th Amendment, one of the principal authors of it is a man named Bingham, and he was one of the people who carried it in the floor and had a course in graduate school where we read the entire Congressional globe of all those debates. And he made the point, this guy Bingham, that seems to me dispositive, and that is if you owe loyalty to another nation, then your children are not automatically citizens. And that. That seems to me the vital thing. Right, that and that. And that's in the context of this. It's in that there are several quotes like that, but that particular one is one where he mentions ambassadors and their children. And so it's not just that you're representing a foreign country, it's that you owe your loyalty to him, to it. You have not gone through the process of transferring your loyalty to the United States of America. And maybe we have applied that wrong or opposed to that all these decades, but I don't think it makes any difference. I think that the point is America is a set of practices and beliefs. It is a nation formed under a social contract, and you have to join up somehow. I think.

[Hugh Hewitt]

I think we will see that particular quote, that exchange, that colloquy on the floor dealt with in the majority's opinion. And I think the answer will be what Justice Scalia has always said. Long standing interpretation deeply rooted in our history and tradition trump statutory history. I think that's what's going to happen. We will find out and we'll talk about it on the Hillsdale Dialogue at the end of June. But I'll be right back with one more question for Dr. Arne this week. And again, we do not know what happened Tuesday night when we taping this. Stay with us. Welcome back, America. Hugh Hewitt with Dr. Larry Arn, President of Hillsdale College. Everything about Hillsdale, including your free subscription to Imprimis and wonderful free online courses, [e-mail]. and there's a new course on classical rhetoric which I really recommend to you. I also want you to know all the Dialogues [e-mail] Dr. Iron, you and I have been watching Democrats for a long time, both in California, 35 years ago and every week. And it seems to me that there is an ongoing collapse of the other party in the United States, not the Republicans, into a party of the genuine left, of the European left. You got John Fetterman, left. Angus King is in independent Dukakis with the Democrats, maybe one or two others. But what do you make of what's happening to the Democrats?

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Well, you know, first of all, they may be on the eve of a big victory in the midterms, and they'll be full of themselves if they are. And they do seem to have more trouble than they used to have, putting a good face on many of their opinions. Politics are more intensely partisanized than right now in any time in my lifetime, and it divides everybody. And, and they seem to be on a side. And what used to be, you know, we, we used to at least pay lip service to a time, you know, we love the stories about Tip o'. Neill. The speaker of the House was a big majority during most of Reagan's time.

[Hugh Hewitt]

All of it.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

All of it Reagan's time, the majority at least. And he and Reagan, you know, and Tip o' Neill was a Boston Irishman and he and Reagan would drink whiskey and have good talk and cut a deal. Those days are not with us these days. And that's sad. We should we're not so and and you know, a lot, you know, one side blames Donald Trump and who is a partisan man, one side blames them. And that's another element of the partisanship that and, and you know, what I think it comes from is not just temper or personal character. The questions involved are very big. Right. I mean, they reach right down directly to what is a human being, how many sexes do they come in? What are their rights? What are the sources of their rights? You know, who is the senator who said of late that as if he'd never read the Declaration Independence? Well, our rights don't come from God, they come from government. Well, that means but for the filibuster, they could redefine him in the Senate on a 5149 vote. And that's not the correct understanding, but it is fundamentally important that some people have that understanding.

[Hugh Hewitt]

And I think we're going to end it there because it is indeed a time of great division in the country, because as Dr. Arne said, maybe in the first Hillsdale dialogue we did all those years ago, fundamental things are afoot and they remain afoot. We'll talk about them when we can. Again in about three weeks, we'll check in on the progress of the war. Thank you, Dr. Larry Arn. All thanks Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Edu.

[Podcast Narrator]

Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast. Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to Hillsdale.

[Dr. Larry Arnn]

Eduardo.