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- [00:05]
Scott Bertram
Every week, Hillsdale College president Larry Arne joins Hugh Hewitt to discuss great books, great men and great ideas. This is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast network. More episodes at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio.
- [00:30]
Hugh Hewitt
Morning Glory and even Grace America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. That music means the Hillsdale Dialogue is underway. All things hillsdalesdale.edu all of the prior hillsdale dialogues are found@hughforhillsdale.com we're taking a couple of week breaks from Winston Churchill, my early life because we got some special events to commemorate been 250 years since the American Revolution began. So I turned to Hillsdale's own Matt Spalding, dean of their graduate school of statesmanship in Washington and the possessor of many fine books. Matt, that is a heck of a collection of books you got there. Are they all American revolutionary books?
- [01:13]
Matt Spalding
These are just my revolution books to keep me up working on my current projects.
- [01:18]
Hugh Hewitt
Well, I'm impressed and I'm amazed and I'm excited because, you know, we didn't really pause on the 19th and the 20th to refight the battle of Lexington and Concord or the events leading up there, too. So when you were available, I said, let's, let's make sure we haven't got a nation of illiterates about our.
- [01:38]
Matt Spalding
Absolutely.
- [01:40]
Hugh Hewitt
So take us. Where are we starting? Are we starting in the French and Indian wars or where are we beginning?
- [01:46]
Matt Spalding
Well, I tell you, Hugh, when I, when I start my classes, I teach this regularly. I actually start with little Aristotle and Cicero, but I don't think we probably have time to go back that far. But I usually put it in the context of jumping off of the after the French Union wars. But a taste of British history, I mean, we forget sometimes how much we are the offspring, the descendants of English history. And that really shaped everything, everything about us. And a lot of the early events we want to commemorate and kind of set this up. It's important to make some references to those so we have the right context.
- [02:26]
Hugh Hewitt
I couldn't agree with you more. Whenever I teach con law, the first class or the second, which is first and 14th amendment, my first lecture is always how did we get here? There are two stories. How did you get here? And how did the American Constitution get here? And you've got to know the Jews, the Greeks, the Romans, the Brits, and us. And I don't know where you're going to start in there, but you feel free because I agree completely. You can't understand where we are or even the last 250 years. Unless you understand 2000 years.
- [02:58]
Matt Spalding
I won't start back too far because I don't want to lose immediate interest in the current events that we're commemorating here. But I think you're absolutely right, especially once you get into the documents like the Declaration of Independence, the importance of not only the Christian tradition and the Jewish tradition before it, but the intellectual traditions, not just the English tradition, not just the Continental, but really the Greek and Roman. Early Greek and Roman affect all of that in a very profound way. But the. The. Probably the. Where I would start to put us in context for something like Lexington Concord is actually English. English history, which I know you're very focused on in terms of beginnings, the beginnings of the rule of law. And we can pick a couple places to start. But one I would note would be Magna Carta. And this is the famous piece of, I guess, an agreement, if you will, between King John and his barons at Runnymede.
- [04:01]
Hugh Hewitt
12:15, for the benefit of the Steelers fan. 12:15. They're gonna be confused enough as it is, Matt, so always give a date and don't even try and spell Runnymede. They won't be able to.
- [04:15]
Matt Spalding
But the only reason I mentioned that is not for the history per se, although that's broadly. What's important here is that you're looking for the beginning points, the precursors, the early things, or what actually what Aristotle called memoria, from where we get the word memory, the information we need to know, determine how we got here. That was actually one of his categories. It's an aspect of prudence. And I would put in that category Magna Carta, because this is the first time the barons, those are loyal subjects to the king, pushed back against the king.
- [04:49]
Hugh Hewitt
Why?
- [04:50]
Matt Spalding
Because they're being taxed without their consent. They were also having their property taken away. They were also not having been given due process. The whole legal tradition of England, Edward Coke eventually feeding into William Blackstone. Crucially important. But the other aspect I would put here that comes more immediate effect, I suppose, are the English Civil Wars. Every American colony, except for Georgia, because Georgia was a penal colony. It was kind of an odd situation. Every American colony is founded during the period of the English Civil wars leading up to the glorious revolution in 1688. That's extremely important because it shapes their whole outlook. They are formed in a period when there are religious wars going on in continental Europe, and Catholics and Protestants in different divisions of Protestants are killing each other.
- [05:49]
Hugh Hewitt
I'm so glad to hear you do this, because unless you begin with the beheading. I tell my lawsuit. Unless you begin with the beheading, you really have no idea the frame of mind that the colonists are coming out of because they're good Englishmen. They're reading their newspapers and you know, I made fun of your books, but your books in the pre revolutionary period would probably be a king's library. You agree with me in a. In just a shot behind you.
- [06:17]
Matt Spalding
The amazing information we have today, but also these are the kinds of things that the information on, on Magna Carta and English history forward. These are the kind of facts and data that the founders had in their back pocket. They knew this by heart. This is what shaped them. And we sometimes forget how important that was. If you jump into it too quickly and you just assume that the American Revolution was a bunch of people who didn't, who wanted to throw the tea in the harbor, you missed the whole point. As a result, you missed the whole point about why we have rights, why we have a constitution, why government is limited, and all the things that could think about things today.
- [06:55]
Hugh Hewitt
Matt, I got one question for you before we go. The rate of literacy. Because I am struck, I remember reading, I think, in a James Clavell novel how Dickens would serialize his novels and the clipper ships or the tea ships to China would arrive and everyone would run down to get their latest edition of whatever magazine Dickens published in so they could read it. What kind of literacy rate have we got in the American colonies pre revolutionary, that they're reading about? The variety of debates?
- [07:27]
Matt Spalding
No, it's actually very high and amazingly high. There are early on, many newspapers, the debates that we read about, and you learn about all the colonial debates going on. Those are all written pamphlets. And amazingly, one of the great sources of literacy in the largest number of those written pamphlets are sermons. The church plays a role, a crucial role in communication literacy in the American founding. So that when Thomas Paine writes a pamphlet called common sense in January 1776, it sells immediately, meaning in a month's time, 500,000 copies.
- [08:14]
Hugh Hewitt
That's incredible.
- [08:15]
Matt Spalding
Just let that sink in for a moment. The size of the colonies, basically a huge portion of the population read that pamphlet. That's amazing.
- [08:23]
Hugh Hewitt
And you assume that it was passed from hand to hand, maybe with an obligation to return it to the borrower, to the lender. But that is quite a literate society. And I also recall that those who were not literate would arrange to have things read for them.
- [08:42]
Matt Spalding
That's true. As a matter of fact, one of the things we know about the Continental army, for instance. A lot of Washington's greatest writings are orders, and they're all verbally read to his troops. That's how they communicated with them because there was not a lot of reading ability in certain quarters. That's also why sermons, religious sermons are so important because they are originally read.
- [09:06]
Hugh Hewitt
Pause right there, Matt Spaulding. We'll come back to the religious sermons, and they do in fact, matter quite a lot. In fact, the Great Awakening precedes the American Revolution by 30 to 40 years, and it mattered quite a lot. We'll get into the Great Awakening as we celebrate our biquincentennial. I think that's what we call it. We're calling it the 250th. Matt Spalding is, and I am as well, dean of Hillsdale Graduate School on statesmanship in Washington, D.C.
- [09:36]
Scott Bertram
Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Anniversaries play a key role in this week's episode. We start with Mark Moyer, William P. Harris, chair of military history at Hillsdale College. We discuss the legacy and the lessons learned from the Vietnam War 50 years after fall of Saigon. Meanwhile, the Great Gatsby turns 100 this year. Benedict Whelan from our English department joins us to discuss the themes in that book. And Julianne Hillock, founding principal at Pozho Academy in New Mexico, talks to us about the unique challenges of running a school in a remote part of the country, plus being honored by the Hillsdale College Alumni Association. All that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio.
- [10:35]
Larry Arne
Hello America. I'm thrilled, thrilled to announce my new 10 part podcast series, Liberty and Learning with Mark Levin and Larry Arn. Join me and my dear friend Dr. Larry Arne, President of Hillsdale College, as we dive deep into the founding principles of our great nation. In these challenging times, understanding our history and the ideals of self government is more crucial than ever. We'll explore the core of America's current crises, the changes in our government and what it means for our lives and liberties. From education to borders, citizenship to the separation of powers, we'll cover it all. Tune in to Liberty and Learning with Mark Levin and Larry Arn of Hillsdale College. So subscribe now and join us on this wonderful journey to rediscover the principles that made America the freest, most prosperous nation in history. Don't miss it.
- [11:23]
Scott Bertram
Listen right now to Liberty and Learning with Mark Levin and Larry Arn at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu. That's podcast, Hillsdale Edu, or wherever you find your audio.
- [11:37]
Hugh Hewitt
Welcome back, America. You hear it. Hillsdale dialogue underway with Dean Matt Spalding. He heads the Hillsdale Graduate School on statesmanship in Washington, D.C. we're doing some history. I'm going to confuse myself and the Steelers fans here. Let's go back to the 1700s, and for the benefit of the Steelers fans, that means the 1600s. 17th century, 1600s. Let's go to the 1600s and you tell me what you think is important for people to understand before we get up to the shooting on the way from Lexington to Concord.
- [12:12]
Matt Spalding
Well, I alluded to one of the things that I think is really important, which is the fact that the American colonies are all creating, created prior to the Glorious Revolution. Now, there are a series of civil wars in England. We don't have to get into the details of those, but for our purposes, those wars were essentially wars between Parliament, this growing legislative body, and the king, different kings over time. And there's a series of wars. The civil wars culminate in the beheading of Charles the First. That's the beheading I assume you were referring to.
- [12:45]
Hugh Hewitt
Yes.
- [12:47]
Matt Spalding
And then there's a long. There's a kind of a period of. There's an interregnum where they get rid of the monarch here for the while, then it comes back, and then there's a renewed emphasis on the monarchy, and eventually that monarch is thrown out in what is called the Glorious Revolution. Why it's called Glorious is because it was a bloodless revolution where essentially the leadership in England who were opposed to the king invited a foreign monarch, the Duke of Orange, who was married to the king's daughter, who was still Protestant. The king had become Catholic, and that's a problem. They invited him to invade England, which he did, and he took over. So there's a change of the monarchy in 1688. The reason that is important for the American colonies, again, I reiterate, they're all founded before the Glorious Revolution. The uptake of the Glorious Revolution for constitutional purposes, is that Parliament won that war, which meant the monarchy now became weaker and it became subservient to Parliament. And the new British understanding of the Constitution was constitutional, excuse me, parliamentary supremacy. Now, if you put that in the context of what we're talking about here, the setup then is that these colonies are formed with charters from the king and they're essentially left alone. Edmund Burke famously called it benign neglect. They basically rule themselves, and there's the British economy and trade, and there's the British Navy protecting them. And life is great.
- [14:20]
Hugh Hewitt
Can I. I want to break in and add one thing. There are only four kings that matter. There's James I who comes from Scotland, and he begets Charles I, who loses his head. And Charles II is recalled from England after a period of time called the Protectorate, with Cromwell killing Irish left and right. And Charles II is an. Okay, he's a libertine, but he has James ii. James II has been raised in France and he's a Catholic and all Great Britain. This has got a lot to do with our no establishment clause free exercise guarantee. That was. That was argued a couple of weeks ago in the Supreme Court because the Brits had had enough of religious wars. In the United states, though, those 13 colonies were different, as the states are different today, if not more so. Matt, would you agree that they're more different then than they are today? Certainly slavery existed then and it doesn't exist today. And the northern states were more abolitionist, but not completely than say, South Carolina and Georgia. But they had their unique cultures, their very unique approaches to things.
- [15:34]
Matt Spalding
Yeah, I think that's true. I would make cut the distinction like this. On the one hand, they had significant differences, and at that time, you could still see where they were coming from. So certain states were more Scottish, certain states had a lot more Irish population, German population, English population, certain religious areas populated certain areas. The Puritans all went to the northern colonies. So they are very different in that sense, and they develop different cultures. What's interesting about the American founding is that they're isolated from the British by an ocean. And so they're developing their own colonies and their own existence. But what happens as they start to become subject to the same uniform British policies, Regulation, tax, imperial control, borders and land, you name it, they start developing something in common. And that commonness is initially to do with their resistance against those British regulations and rules which they object to. The British start closing down their legislatures, overriding their laws, not assenting to their laws, and then eventually taxing them. But that starts making them to be alike in a fundamental way, such that now looking ahead, by the time you get to 1776, they can say in the Declaration, we are a people. And so this question about at what point they become a people. Originally they are different people, Scottish, Irish, English. But they start melding together because of the circumstances, because of the wars they fight, because of increasingly similar political institutions, local legislatures that pass their own laws, including local taxation, juries and the legal system. All these things meld them together. So that at a certain point they have a common mind, as Jefferson says about the Declaration, they have this common American wrong which expresses.
- [17:46]
Hugh Hewitt
Matt, where would they be educated? Because I do think there's a great thing to be said for how much each of the founders brought to the table in terms of capacity. And you could range them out such a collection of genius as our country has rarely if ever again seen. But where did they get their education from? From so that they could become a founding generation?
- [18:10]
Matt Spalding
That's a great question as well, and something we oftentimes overlook. It is an amazingly cultural or a culturally illiterate group. There's still a lot of there's still frontier and people that are kind of less formally educated. But I was struck by how many of them actually have some sort of what we would consider today formal education, broadly defined in the sense that it's a classical education. The classical model of education, which now kind of is an exception today, was the norm. It was the norm in England, and it's the norm that's brought over now. Sometimes that's done privately with tutors. Some of the founders are sent back to England for formal education. You've got the beginnings of colleges in the colonies, Harvard, Princeton, which at times called King's College, William and Mary. And then you have some of them that are what we would today call homeschooled. But they overwhelmingly study the classics. They learn Latin and Greek, which means they're reading Cicero, which means they're reading Greek and Roman history.
- [19:18]
Hugh Hewitt
And Greek and Roman history is essential if you're going to understand the history of the United States. If you want to understand everything about the Founding, there's a fabulous video course at Hillsdale Edu, along with many other fabulous video courses. If you want to go through the Founding almost year by year, Dr. Larry Ahren and I did that a couple years ago in Hillsdale Dialogues past. All Hillsdale Dialogues are collected@hugh4hillsdale.com welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Hillsdale dialogue underway with Dean Matt Spalding. He helms the Hillsdale graduate program on statesmanship in Washington, D.C. we're talking about what the framers knew and when do they know it, the education system that they grew up with.
- [20:01]
Matt Spalding
Matt the other thing that is overwhelmingly dominant in that educational system is their learning history. And the history they're learning is their history, which at the time is British history, which again, going back to all these discussions about the Civil wars and what goes on in England, and Charles the first losing his head, and James and this, that, and the other, they knew that like it was yesterday. That was their history. And for those colonies, it's their founding history. So that is an extremely important aspect of it. And then for your benefit, I will add, Hugh, that a large percentage, maybe two thirds or so of the members of the Continental Congress, and ultimately the ones that signed the Declaration, have been trained in the law, which at the time meant you were studying Edward Cook, which meant you were studying what essentially is the common law, or what we might call the natural law tradition applied to the law.
- [20:58]
Hugh Hewitt
You mentioned earlier, each colony had a governor. They all had different charters or different, if you will, constitutions. They operated differently, but the unifying matter is that they are loyal subjects of the Crown. They have 13 different approaches to government, and they have some common institutions like Princeton and King's College and Harvard's around. William and Mary is around. But they have a shared curriculum, which is they knew their republic. I love when people remind me George Washington's favorite play is Cato. And Cato is a very commonly performed play, and it's about the greatest Roman of them all, depending on your taste. And they all knew this. I mean, they would sit around debating Roman history. It's the kind of thing you can only imagine. But it actually happened.
- [21:55]
Matt Spalding
No, that's absolutely right. And you see it in their letters, and you see it in their writings, and you see it in their pamphlets. You know, all these things we hear quoted once in a while where they quote Cicero or they'll make a reference to some Roman or Greek that. That's actually dominant. It's everywhere. And it just. It just completely formed their. Their way of. Of thinking, which meant, going back to my point, they are. Yes, there are all these differences and. And whatnot, but they start becoming similar very quickly. So, for instance, they have 13 different governments. They have 13 different charters. But they all develop eventually the same type of operational legislative branch, which is a. They have a local, a colony legislature that's representative, having been elected in some way that passes laws. So those institutions become common very quickly. And this is partly because of what the British do. Because what starts out is some of them are proprietary colonies. Some of them are directly appointed by the king. Some of them are kind of done different ways. But after 1688, when the pirate wants to get control of everything, they turn them all into royal colonies. So they become similar very quickly. And what all these colonists go back to is what they had in common, their heritage, their history, which they know by, like, the back of their hand, their common language, which teaches them about Cicero and the Roman idea of a republic. And they've got common legislatures which say all 13 colonies understand what it means to have consent, legislative consent. So all those things are driving this. So that again, after 1688, once Parliament wants to start regulating their new empire, remember after the French Union war, they essentially win Quebec, they win the lands east of the Mississippi. They win right. All sorts of territory. They've got to rearrange their imperial structure and they've got to raise money because they're going to debt. Once they start doing that in the guise of parliamentary supremacy. You can see where this is going because for the colonists, that's a change. That's almost a form of government change because now rather than having charged with kings and their own legislatures, they're now going to be ruled by parliament, a legislative central legislature in London.
- [24:31]
Hugh Hewitt
That's a big change. We'll come back to what that means. It's really the change in British history that sets the dominoes of falling. They eventually will fall in the colonies, they will eventually fall in America. They will eventually fall after the Articles of Confederation of the Constitution, which still contains our primary directive on being a free people in a land that loves liberty. Don't go anywhere. More of the Hillsdale dialogue coming up with dean Matt Spalding. Dr. Spalding is dean of the Hillsdale School of Statesmanship inside the Beltway. All things Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Edu.
- [25:07]
Hillsdale College Announcer
Hillsdale College is a small Christian classical liberal arts college that operates independently of government funding. And we want you or your son or daughter to apply. At Hillsdale, students grow in heart and mind by studying timeless truths in a supportive community dedicated to the highest things. Hillsdale College costs significantly less than other nationally ranked private liberal arts colleges and receives regular recognition as a best value. And nearly all students receive financial aid. Our robust core curriculum, vibrant student life and 8 to 1 student to faculty ratio make for an education like no other. For more information or to fill out an application, visit hillsdale. Edu Info. That's hillsdale. Edu info.
- [26:04]
Scott Bertram
Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Anniversaries play a key role in this week's episode. We start with Mark Moyer, William P. Harris, chair of Military history at Hillsdale College. We discuss the legacy and the lessons learned from the Vietnam War 50 years after the fall of Saigon. Meanwhile, the Great Gatsby turns 100 this year. Benedict Whelan from our English department joins us to discuss the themes in that book. And Julianne Hillock, founding principal at hojo Academy in New Mexico talks to us about the unique challenges of running a school and in a remote part of the country. Plus being honored by the Hillsdale College Alumni Association. All that this week on the radio. Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio.
- [27:03]
Hugh Hewitt
Welcome back, America Hilltale dialogue underway. I'm Hugh Hewitt. This is my favorite part of my favorite hour, the final hour of every week. When I asked Dean Spalding. As most people should have anticipated, the most important part of the story concerns Ohio. Because the French and Indian war is largely fought over Ohio between the British subjects, the colonists and the British regulars, the redcoats up against French regulars and their tribal allies out on the Allegheny frontier, which includes the Northwest Territories. And they fight over the St. Lawrence Seaway, they fight over all of the fur lands, they fight over tribal allegiance and they fight side by side. George Washington. The colonists actually learn something about fighting a war because they are taught as colonial militias attached to British regulars. Am I right in saying that?
- [27:58]
Matt Spalding
Absolutely, you're absolutely right. What's interesting about that war in particular is there are a series of European wars, nine year wars, the War of the Spanish Succession. They start in Europe and they come to the American colonies. The French Union War starts in the American colonies. It starts precisely as you described, to fight over control of the Ohio Valley, which is this rich area of land, potential for expansion and growth. And among other things, remember, who starts the French Union war was actually George Washington because he's sent out by the British. At the time he's serving in the British military. He sent out to check a French regiment who's starting a who's out there on lands the British claim. So that war is extremely important. And it's what happens after that war, how that plays out, that's when things really start changing. Because all of the history prior to that, this benign neglect, this cooperative relationship with the British, it really collapses after 1763. Once the British start rearranging how they want to run things with things like.
- [29:08]
Hugh Hewitt
There are one more thing, two more things I want to add to this is that when we get back with Dr. Arne and we finish up with Churchill's My Early Life, we're going to do World War II and then we're switching to Marlborough, the two volume history of this magnificent British general, the first Duke of Marlboro. And Marlborough, of course, is one of the moving forces behind the Revolution of 1688 that Matt has referred to a couple of times. The Brits have two Revolution. Charles the first and James the Second both get tossed off of their. Their thrones. Charles the first at the cost of his head. James the Second just gets hurried off to France. It's a bloodless revolution. But the colonists are reading about all this stuff in newspaper. And how long does the sea trade take, Matt? How long does it take for a newspaper to come from London to.
- [29:58]
Matt Spalding
It takes about a month. It takes about a month. Which is why once you start getting. Yeah, they're close enough. Although once you start getting to the activities of the revolution, a month's delay is oftentimes crucial in making important decisions.
- [30:11]
Hugh Hewitt
So where do you want to begin? After the French and Indian War, there is a huge war debt, as there is after every war, and various members of the parliamentary party have various schemes to come up with how to pay for it. You want to pick up the story there?
- [30:27]
Matt Spalding
Yeah, I would say after the French war, you pick up two strains. One I've already alluded to, which is the British need to figure out how to have a better control of their empire. They now actually have an empire. It's after the French Union War when the term the British Empire starts to be used. This is before they get India and before they start getting. Expanding.
- [30:48]
Hugh Hewitt
Right.
- [30:48]
Matt Spalding
They've now got this empire in North America. Well, they've got to figure out how to run it. So they change the structure, the imperial structure, they start having boards, and the Privy Council gets involved in all of that. So that drives a huge portion of this. How do we control, among other things, those Americans? And they start passing new rules and regulations, including controlling the Ohio Valley and preventing the colonists from going into it, which was a big problem. They have to figure out how to. How to rule Quebec, which eventually becomes Canada. The other strain, which we've also alluded to here, is they have massive debt. Their debt is doubled, and they've still got to maintain a lot of troops in North America to protect the frontier. And so they start trying to figure out ways to tax the Americans, either by taxing goods coming in or eventually by a direct tax, which was a stamp act in 1768. And they figure out how to do that. And there are two or three phase, several phases of this, which we could go into if you would like to. But when the British had this, they pass attacks, the Americans push back against it. It's oftentimes repealed. The British try to pass a different tax, it might be protested against, it's repealed. This is kind of, you know, kind of escalating over time. But the One theme that's very clear throughout the whole thing, every stage, when they first pass the Sugar act and they pass the Stamp act tax, they eventually pass something called the Townshend taxes, which are on paper and glass and all sorts of things, including tea and then eventually tea tax. The British make it very clear we are passing these taxes to raise revenue, number one. But number two, we are passing these taxes to establish the principle that Parliament has the right under all circumstances to rule the colonies. And that includes taxation, that is the.
- [32:46]
Hugh Hewitt
Underlying debt Parliament is asserting.
- [32:48]
Matt Spalding
Yeah.
- [32:49]
Hugh Hewitt
So you didn't even include the Navigation Acts and all the variety of efforts of means of control. And the most important thing, at least that I teach my law students is Parliament has got some gifted people in it, but they haven't got any Americans in it. Matt, there's not one American in Parliament, correct?
- [33:08]
Matt Spalding
That's right. And so what is happening is you're seeing right before your very eyes how these different constitutional systems, if you will, are dividing. And it's basically a debate over how to interpret the events of 1688. To come back to that, again, the British interpreted as absolute parliamentary supremacy, which means Parliament can rule and must rule in all circumstances and they can do whatever they want. What The Americans read 1688 to mean was legislative authority relative to the executive authority. And legislatures are more important. But that doesn't mean Parliament per se. That means our legislature. That means the rule of the consent of the governed. That means we should self govern ourselves and pass our own laws. So you can see how there are two constitutional theories dividing off from how to interpret essentially the British Constitution.
- [34:02]
Hugh Hewitt
So, Matt, the one book I was turning around to look for, and I think it's in my main studio, is our friend Lord Andrew Roberts wrote a book called the Last King of America and it's about George iii. And so as we got a minute or two left in this episode, George III has a role here. Parliament is pushing people around and they're the ones trying to get money and control of their 13 colonies. And they think they have the right to. But when we come back, we'll find out what Lord Andrew Roberts and George III too. Welcome back, America. The Hillsdale dialogue underway. I'm Hugh Hewitt on the Salem News Channel with Dean Matt Spalding of the Hillsdale Graduate School of statesmanship in Washington D.C. all things hillsdale at hillsdale. Edu we are talking kings. You just mentioned constitutional system. Both of them are united by a king. And the American colonists are loyal subjects of George iii, I think. But what's Your comment on him and his role here?
- [35:00]
Matt Spalding
Well, he's interesting. For one thing, he's the first of that line of German kings that's actually born in England. So he's actually much more English. He's an important figure. He comes in in 1760, which is say right before all this gets started, two things become, I think obvious once we kind of play this out. Looking at through the colonies, the Americans are loyal to the King and they really maintain that for longer than you might expect. But their argument is that constitutionally we have charters from the King, Parliament has no authority over us. So they're always appealing to the King to protect us from Parliament, which is say that they want him to intervene, essentially use what is called his prerogative or his veto power. George iii, on the other hand, is a young man and he's only becoming a little bit more mature and growing a little bit older into his monarchy by the time of the American Revolution. But what he has learned very clearly is he's more English, he's got a certain sympathy for the Americans up to a point, but he very clearly understands his role as a king in Parliament, which say that he's a king post 1688, which means once it becomes clear, once it becomes clear that there's this divide on how to interpret the Constitution and that the Americans don't be subject to Parliament, he becomes much harder. And I would recall that the, a lot of the key events that really stem or start moving the revolution, the 1774, 75 going into 76, those are essentially actions directly by the King. He declares a rebellion, he sends secret dispatches to Gage which would essentially trigger the war. He reads it and he decides that actually we need to use more force. So it really is an interesting but two sided question here. Early on they appealed to the King to protect them. There's a certain sympathy he has for them. But once it really comes down to it, he becomes the enforcer of the laws of Parliament, which is why the declaration ultimately says he is abdicated. Which interestingly enough, Hugh, you might recall, what did Parliament say James II had done before the Glorious Revolution? They said he had abdicated.
- [37:28]
Hugh Hewitt
The language of revolution is not new to the men of the revolutionary era or the women like Abigail Adams. I'm coming back Next Week with Dr. Spalding. We will continue the conversation about the times in which we're. The beginning of our 250th birthday is underway. And like Lexington and Concord, that was the first of many battles and a long, long year and a half to independence. We'll come back to that again next week.
- [37:58]
Scott Bertram
Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to Hillsdale.
- [38:15]
Matt Spalding
Eduardo.