Dr. Larry Arnn (3:29)

Well, we're teachers for living, so we're like hammers. Everything looks like a nail to us. And so we got into K through 12 education about 14 years ago and we have now sponsoring about 100 schools and adding seven or eight a year. There's a curriculum, there's detailed assistance in instruction and organization of a school and the order in which you go through things to become an educated person by the time you're 18 years old. And so those schools are thriving and there are hundreds of other schools that use the curriculum that are not so closely affiliated with us. And so it's a big movement and it's growing very fast and it offers a vast hope for the future of the Republic, I think.

Hugh Hewitt (4:14)

Okay, last question before we get to the events of the new year. People know me. I've told them about me. They know my regular guests, like Senator Cotton was on earlier this week. They may not know you. You are a PhD in Political Theory trained by Harry Jaffa at Claremont, and you are at least the equal of any Churchill scholar in the United States, having been part of the official biography team of Winston Churchill. But how else would you describe yourself other than married to the wonderful Penny and father and grandfather?

Dr. Larry Arnn (4:44)

Well, we keep boxer dogs. And I have visited Petoskey, Michigan and Charlevoix, Michigan and Pensacola, Florida many times and find them beautiful places. And Petoskey and Charlie Boy are summer resorts that get cold in the winter, so you should go up there.

Hugh Hewitt (5:02)

Oh, okay. I didn't know that, so I'm glad I asked. All right, so all things hillsdalesdale. Edu all of the prior Hillsdale dialogues, years of them, collected@hueforhilsdale.com let's get started on the Constitution. And first, your general reaction to what President Trump ordered done over the weekend in Venezuela.

Dr. Larry Arnn (5:23)

Amazement, shock and awe. I thought something was going to happen. But to go down there and get him and bring him here. That's kind of cool. I mean, how do you do that? And it was, you know, a massive effort and it was coordinated and it came off. And that means that it was also very risky because, you know, what if he wasn't in the right place? What if 100 things, a thousand things that might have gone wrong. And one of the that thing shows is President Trump has nerve. He's very nervy guy and he just follows. You know, apparently this has been planned for months, many different plans. It was delayed several times because of weather. And so they're in the middle of everything else he's doing. He's in close counsel about whether to go ahead with this thing or not. And darned if he didn't do it. And it changes the world. You know, there's a, this morning's news, there's a Russian tanker being escorted by a Russian submarine and we're after it and apparently we're not going to let the submarine stop us. And what does that mean? That means that China and the Chinese diplomatic delegation, high level, arriving in Venezuela a couple of days before this happened. So the Chinese and the Russians are all over this thing, this place, and they, you know, are despots. Maduro is a despot. He rigged the last election, apparently, and he's in league with despots. And it matters strategically to the United States because if you just put, put together with Taiwan, what's going on there and China's interest. If you look at a map, China is blocked in its open access to the Pacific Ocean by a bunch of islands, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Philippines, bunch of them. And they're interested in getting out. Well, we have that close access that's, you know, but there's a choke point, choke points around Cuba, which is why the Soviet Union and now China are interested in Cuba and subsidize it. And then Venezuela, which is farther away, is a way for them to have access to the Pacific near us. And of course, they've got big interest in Panama, too. So the point is, this is a, what this is about is about the Monroe Doctrine, which James Monroe, what was he, fifth president of the United States? Sixth.

Hugh Hewitt (8:03)

Five.

Dr. Larry Arnn (8:03)

You know, and one of the founders.

Hugh Hewitt (8:04)

Yeah, five.

Dr. Larry Arnn (8:05)

He, he made a deal. I, interestingly enough, he made a deal partly with the British, that the European nations would not be allowed to muck around in North America, that it was going to be free land. And we were, we, we were not going to turn north and South America into Europe with lots of war and powers you know, at odds with each other all the time. And so he wanted to protect this Western hemisphere. And so that's what's going on here, I think. Of course, the next subject is green.

Hugh Hewitt (8:39)

Your friend and student, My friend and regular guest, Senator Tom Cotton, was on the program this week. He is chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee and therefore one of the group of eight which routinely receives notice of when the United States is about to pull something off. They were not notified in advance. Senator Cotton said on this program, I think on Tuesday, maybe Monday, he's fine with that. He got a call, he got an elbow in the rib from his wonderful wife at 3:30 in the morning, who's a lighter sleeper than he is. And Ms. Cotton said to Mr. Cotton, why is Marco Rubio calling you at 3:30 in the morning? And Senator Cotton said, I don't know, but it's going to be exciting. And he said he was fine with both the president's use of his authority and the notice he received and the notice that Congress received. That's a constitutional issue. What's your opinion of that?

Dr. Larry Arnn (9:30)

Well, by my count, and John Yoo, constitutional scholar and former clerk of Clarence Thomas account, we've attacked militarily other nations 125 times, and that's from the founding to the current day. And we have declared war five times, actually 11 times if you count as discrete the several countries that we declared war against in World War I and World War II. And the Constitution says the Congress has that power to declare war. And it's pretty clear about that. And in the Federalist, Hamilton is pretty clear. Part of the purpose of the Federalist, by the way, is to get people in New York, especially to vote for the Constitution. And they're allaying fears that the president will be a king, which was a fear at the time. We have the no kings movement here today in America. And so he, he, he, he takes that view. I guess we're going to take a break and I want to finish the point because it's very important how it's worked out and why it has to work out.

Hugh Hewitt (10:40)

All right. We'll come right back after the break and pick up with that with Dr. Lariar and President Hillsdale College, all things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu. go sign up for Imprimis during the break. I'll be right back. It be right back with Dr. Arndt. Stay tuned.

Hillsdale College Announcer (10:56)

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Scott Bertram (11:53)

Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Happy New Year. We return back and better than ever this week. John J. Miller, director of the Dow Journalism Program, joins us. We discuss his recent essay about why journalism suffers when journalists lack curiosity. And Jonathan Butcher joins us. He's got a brand new book called the Polarization America's Surprising Consensus on Race, Schools and Sex. We are more united than perhaps we think. All that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at podcast hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio, including YouTube.

Hugh Hewitt (12:39)

I am back with Dr. Larry Arpent at Hillsdale College in the first Hillsdale dialogue of the year. And Dr. Arnold is explaining that according to Professor Yu and his count, the United States has taken military action 125 times, but only has, what did you say, five declarations of war, even though the declaration of war power is committed to the legislature in Article 1, but the President in Article 2, head of the executive branch in paragraph 2, section 2 of Article 2, is commander in chief of the army and Navy. So you were about to say.

Dr. Larry Arnn (13:10)

So it looks like it's a strict thing by one reading. It is a strict thing and the reading implied by Hamilton, a very great authority in the Federalist, that you can't fight anybody if you don't declare war. And Congress has to do that. But it's never worked out that way. And that and the reason that's okay is two reasons in my opinion. The first is it's necessary because, you know, what are you going to go get Congress to declare war on Venezuela and then they're going to know we're coming and that's not going to work. But the second reason is something that Madison points to in the 51st Federalist. One of the first important and that is the structure of the Constitution. Is the most important thing about it that it is divided in the way that it is and that there are various means of influence or control of one branch on the other, not just the Congress over the president, but in some cases the President over the Congress. In other words, the powers are separated and the tools are there to keep them separate. And then what are the essential powers of the Congress? They can cause the President enormous trouble in the short term if they want to. They did, for example, against both Nixon and Reagan when he was engaged in. They were engaged in fighting in other places, and the Congress didn't like it. And, you know, the key power is the money power. They can just not give them any money for the war. That was connected to the Iran Contras controversy in the 80s where Iran gave us some money and we used it to fight the Contras. And Reagan apparently didn't know about it, but it was a mess. Right.

Hugh Hewitt (14:56)

There was an attempt to get around an refusal to fund American operations on behalf of the Contras, which the United States House of Representatives passed in the form of the Boland Amendment. So we couldn't spend any money directly on the Contras. So Oliver north and John Poindexter cooked up, we will sell arms to Iran, get that money, and send that money to the Contras. And that didn't work out well, but it was an attempt to get around as an appropriation rider. Yeah.

Dr. Larry Arnn (15:22)

The Contras were in Nicaragua, right?

Hugh Hewitt (15:24)

Yes.

Dr. Larry Arnn (15:24)

And so the truth is the President has a very wide power to launch an attack on somebody who's a danger to us or to respond to an attack, but The Congress has 100 ways of going about causing him trouble about that. And so, like I said earlier, Trump has nerve. Right. Well, what happens if they go down there and miss, you don't have to search very hard in history to see what happens. Jimmy Carter launched an effort to get the hostages back from Iran, which they held for what, years or something, and the effort failed in the desert when the helicopters didn't work. And that was a black mark on him and caused his, you know, eventually contributed to his defeat by Ronald Reagan in the 1980 election. So the truth is, this ability to launch military forces as Commander in Chief is not an unlimited power, and it shouldn't be and it isn't. But on the other hand, if, if, you know, if everybody from Thomas Jefferson, from John Adams through Thomas Jefferson through now Donald Trump, but also Barack Obama, Joe Biden, presidents do this, right? And they fight people and they attack people without a declaration of war against them, and they always have. And I think it's necessary that they be able to do so.

Hugh Hewitt (16:58)

At this point, I want to just lay out some of the big ones for the audience that have occurred over the last 50 years, beginning with President Ford seized the Mayaguez on May 12th through 15th in Cambodia after we were out of Vietnam, had no congressional authorization. You mentioned Operation eagle claw on April 24th of 1980. That was President Carter and Desert One. That failed. President Reagan invaded Grenada on October 25, 1983. George H.W. bush invaded Panama, December 1989. President Clinton bombed Serbia for 78 days along with NATO in March and June of 1999. President Obama bombed Libya, famous leading from behind. In 2011, he also launched Operation Neptune Spear into Pakistan from Afghanistan to kill Bin Laden. Later that year, President Trump ordered Soleimani killed and Al Baghdadi killed. And of course, President Obama during his eight years had between 540 and 560 drone strikes, some on American citizens. Joe Biden ordered drone strikes in Syria in February 25th of 2021. That's only a dozen or so of the 125 incidents you mentioned. There is simply no argument here, is there?

Dr. Larry Arnn (18:19)

No. My favorite is the Barbary Pirates. Of course it is. I've always loved that. Thomas Jefferson sent the Navy and some soldiers to route the Barbary Pirates and he told the Congress that it was a defensive measure alone. But his direct orders to the, to the soldiers and sailors he sent was go get them, take the offensive. And that's. And see, remember, the president is accountable for that. It's the nature of executive action, that it has to be sudden and prudential in its nature. And it depends, the rightness and wrongness of it depends decisively, not wholly, but decisively on the circumstances in which it's done and how well it's done. And the president is accountable for that in the short term, like if this turns into a mess, you know, the midterms are coming, right? And you know, odds are if history holds, the Dems are going to take the House and maybe the Senate. We'll see. Trump does astonishing things and maybe he'll hold them, who knows? But the truth is they're coming and there's going to be an election about them and this is going to be a factor in that election. And so it's not an unchecked power and it wouldn't be right if it were.

Hugh Hewitt (19:45)

And I'll be right back with Dr. R. We'll talk more about not the Barbary Pirates, but Thomas Jefferson. There's a lot. There's actually, I've got something from the State Department archives on Thomas Jefferson and Louisiana Purchase as well. So stay tuned. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt with Dr. Larry Arrn. The Hillsdale dialogue is underway. All Hillsdale dialogues dating back, well, a decade are collected@hughforhillsdale.com Next week we will have part 16 in our series on Churchill's World War II memoirs. But today we're looking at what happened over the weekend and what might happen in Iran and what might happen again in Nigeria. The exercise of presidential power. Dr. Larry Arnold is my guest. Dr. ARN I got to the Department of State's official history of the United States and went back to Jefferson, getting a hold of Louisiana and its official history says Napoleon threatened to reconquer the Sugar Islands and then to militarize New Orleans. And so Jefferson made preparations for war. But he also sent James Monroe, as Secretary of State and future president, and Robert Livingston to France to try and purchase New Orleans and West Florida for as much as $10 million. To their surprise, Napoleon offered to sell it for $15 million, which exceeded their instructions. And they said yes. And President Jefferson agreed, even though he didn't believe he had the authority to do it and that the Constitution would have to be amended to do it. But he did it anyway. And no one's ever complained about that, because although Jefferson was the original anti federalist, I mean, he was really against the Constitution's broader interpretation of necessity is its own interpretation sometimes. Is that fair to say?

Dr. Larry Arnn (21:30)

Yeah. Or you can put the point another way. Thomas Jefferson, you know, who was a very great man and without him, no America. He was also a foolish man in some ways. He liked strict rules and he didn't like them to last very long. He wrote this letter to Madison while Madison was busy writing the Constitution of the United States in the convention and says, the earth belongs to the living. And so you should put in the contract that in the Constitution of the United States that every contract, including the Constitution, should expire every generation because it's wrong for the current generation to prejudice the next. Well, that's a partner with the opposite strain in Jefferson. And that was that rules should be very strict. Well, Madison, who often corrected Jefferson, wrote him back and said, you know, it actually is the purpose of the Constitution to prejudice the generation of Jefferson. And so Jefferson's life involves several attempts to reconcile those two positions. And he did it the way those things have to be done. He did it prudentially. That is to say, yeah, I don't think I have the power to do that. Let's buy that thing.

Hugh Hewitt (22:50)

Let's take it. Now. I think that's gonna happen with Greenland as well. And the left is coming undone and they're undone with Venezuela, and they are undone with the strike in Nigeria, and they may be undone with whatever Donald Trump does in Iran. My question is, what is the Trump effect on the left? How do you explain it to people if you have to talk to someone who just beamed aboard the United States? Donald Trump acts upon the left wing in the United States because what?

Dr. Larry Arnn (23:17)

Well, we're in a quarrel, it's fundamental about the ultimate purposes and manner of governance of our country. There's nothing in politics more general than what we're fighting about today. And Donald Trump is a fighter big time. And, you know, he's got those personal characteristics that offend the heck out of people. You know, he is the most adept at the use of the superlative degree of any president I've ever heard of. And, you know, everything, there's only great and greatest, I guess. So that's the superlative and the super superlative. And, you know, he talks about himself a fair amount and then he does things. And, you know, my own view is that there's a larger consistency in Donald Trump. He wants to drain the swamp. And, and so it's the swamp that complains the most. And what is the swamp? It represents that new, different kind of government that's been grafted on to the constitutional form. We had the constitutional form being limited, most of its powers and activities local rather than national. And what we've done is concentrated vast wealth under the direct and indirect control of the federal government. And so Donald Trump is reducing that in some important ways and in other ways not, one must admit. You know, the biggest part of the federal government is the entitlement program programs. And that's, you know, we have to do something about those. And I can tell you, if you want, what I think Trump is trying to do about it. But he's no enemy of those. And I don't think it would be politically possible for anybody to sustain being an enemy of those. So that's what makes me mad.

Hugh Hewitt (25:10)

It makes everybody mad. And I'll be back with Dr. Arne to continue talking about not only Donald Trump, but another New Yorker, Mayor Mamdani, when I return to the Hugh Hewitt show and the Hillsdale Dialogue, all things Hillsdale at Hillsdale. Edu. Welcome back, America. The Hillsdale dialogue is underway. First one of the year. Dr. Larry Orn is up on campus at Hillsdale in Hillsdale, Michigan. All things hillsdalesdale. Edu and all of our prior dialogues, years of them and 15 prior ones on the current book that we are in the Gathering Storm, to which we will return next week with Part 16. They are all collected at hughforhillsdale.com or wherever podcasts are the Hillsdale Dialogue. You have to listen to those. Dr. Mr. Zoran Mamdani. We were talking about the meaning of President Trump, why he makes people mad. I am watching from afar. He cannot hurt me because I am not in the city. I only go there to visit. I suppose I might pay more in hotel tax or something like that. I don't live in New York, so he can't wreck my state economy. I'm a Virginian. What do you make of the meaning of Mamdani and the fact that the youngsters in New York elected him?

Dr. Larry Arnn (26:25)

Well, first of all, New York is important. It's also a wonderful place to visit. I've never lived there. It's challenging. It's hard to get around. It's super crowded. It's a teeming, vibrant, massive world city. And it's always been important in American politics. I Remember in the 2016 debates, Ted Cruz, a very good guy, attacked Donald Trump as a New Yorker. And in the debate, Trump warmed to the theme, talked about the greatness of New York and convincingly. And so I think it's sad for all of us that it's turned this way. I think it'll have a bad effect on the country. And I think what you say about these young people, I think there's a problem there. I think we've done a very poor job offering them an education. You can't give anybody an education, but you can lay out what a good one is. And if you do that, most of them will take to it. And we don't do that anymore. And also there's some hopelessness. You know, these people, these young people, what they much of their growing up was marred by the COVID years. Couldn't go to school, constrained in a hundred ways. Ask at a young age, that is an appreciable percentage of their total lifetime to take time off and sit around. And that's not a good way to grow up. And so there's a tendency one sees, for young women to turn to Karl Marx and young men to turn to Friedrich Nietzsche. And those are two different kinds of poison that are closely related. And so that's a serious thing and a disturbing thing. And it needs to be combated. We need to offer them a better education. As they grow older, they will learn that, you know, those things don't work out. I mean, socialism has not been tried anywhere where it's worked well.

Hugh Hewitt (28:23)

That's what I wonder about Mayor Mondani. Dr. Arne, I think he is sincerely committed to. When he talks about the warm embrace of collectivism and the coldness of rugged individualism. I think he's sincere. I don't think he's stupid because he went to Bowdoin and studied unusual things. But Bowdoin's a good quote, a good liberal arts school, and then he ran for and got elected three times in New York State Assembly. He's never had a job other than that, so that makes him ignorant. Because if you're not lying and deceitful and you're sincere and you're not stupid, and I don't think he's stupid, and yet you believe this nonsense, then you are ignorant of history for the reason you just said it never works. And the idea of collectivizing housing or that there ought not to be private property ownership and that the buses ought to be free. That's nuts.

Dr. Larry Arnn (29:16)

Yeah, it. It's. The trouble is there's a promise that socialism gives that everything will be taken care of. You know, Marx's picture of it is, you know, his picture is rugged. You know, it requires a period of dictatorship and effectively civil war to get to socialism. But when we get there, everything will be taken care of for everybody. And then they won't have to fight about anything. They can have a leap into freedom. Well, the reason that doesn't work is that human life is not like that. And, you know, we are here, we have to eat and we have to move, and we have a rational understanding that we understand about our own mortality, the only animals that do. And so we face all those questions, each one of us. And then a radical thing about us is we are also made to face it together because we have the gift of speech. We can talk about these things together. That draws us closer than other animals. But to erase. Attempt to erase the conditions of human life, in necessity, in the fact that each of us must perform in order to build our own happiness, that's just despotism. And it will lead to what C.S. lewis called the abolition of man. Finally, if it's true that there needs. I mean, you know, I'm very partial to Elon Musk, and I drive a cybertruck, and it drives itself. And I just think the guy's a world historical force, but lately he's talking about sustained abundance for all work will be optional. Well, that doesn't make any sense because that's not human right. We have to struggle. We do. And, you know, you've been doing this radio show for a long time, and it's a lot of work, and you have to do the work for the show to be any good. And, you know, I've learned some things in my life. It took time, and often I was tired when I had to do it. I think of Charlie Kirk, my friend who was assassinated, and he was the antidote, the single best antidote in recent times to this radicalism that's growing among the young. And Lord, that boy was a worker. And he got a splendid education on his own with the help of Hillsdale College online courses and certain people there, including myself. But I told him early on, I said, you know, you should probably try to learn because you're using a bunch of words and you don't know what they mean, and you're 19 years old and you're starting this big deal. He said, how do I do that? And I said, well, you have to suffer. And, you know, because if it was easy, everybody would be wise and everybody wants to be wise, but you got to work for it. And then you deserve it if you do. So that's the thing. If you attempt and see, because you can't, you know, somebody builds a house or buys an apartment, build an apartment building in New York City, and they had to work to do that, and they took risks to do that. And they have to live every day, and then the government takes it. That's force.

Hugh Hewitt (32:36)

That's force and that is socialism.

Dr. Larry Arnn (32:40)

That's dangerous.

Hugh Hewitt (32:41)

And then people won't build any more apartments because they won't get fooled again. I'll be back for one more segment with Dr. R on all things Hillsdale at Hillsdale. EDU or, of course, all the Hillsdale dialogues are collected@q4hillsdale.com One more segment coming up. Don't go anywhere, America.

Scott Bertram (33:01)

Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Hope you had a fantastic Thanksgiving. We're back at it this week with an in depth conversation with Dr. Matthew Spaulding. He's vice president of Washington Operations and dean of the Van Andel Graduate School of Government at Hillsdale in Washington, D.C. but to our point, his new book is the Making of the American the Story of Our Declaration of Independence. As we approach the 250th anniversary, it will be a very important book talking about the intellectual tradition that inspired the writing of the Declaration and how it all came together. That's this week, Matthew Spalding on the making of the American mind on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio. Hey there, it's Scott Bertram, host of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Happy New Year. We return back and better than ever this week. John J. Miller, director of the Dow Journalism Program, joins us. We discuss his recent essay about why journalism suffers when journalists lack curiosity. And Jonathan Butcher joins us. He's got a brand new book called the Polarization America's Surprising Consensus on Race, Schools and Sex. We are more united than perhaps we think. All that this week on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Find it at Podcast hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio, including YouTube.

Hugh Hewitt (34:47)

Welcome back, America. Hugh Hewitt with Dr. Larry Arn, President of Hillsdale College. All things hillsdale at hillsdale.edu. it's our first Hillsdale dialogue of the year. They are all collected at hue for hillsdale.com Dr. Arn, you mentioned earlier that we are in an election year. Midterms are coming up in 2026. The third quarter of 2025 had 4.3% GDP inflation, way down from the Biden inflation peak of 9% below 3%. And Donald Trump's tariffs. If they're going to crush the economy, they're not doing a very good job of it. And some of them have been replaced. Some of them annoy me. Some of them I think are necessary. Generally speaking, though, the political tides favor the out party in an off year, meaning Democrats would take the House. I know you're not a prophet or a son of a prophet, but what do you think these elections will turn on? I don't think they'll turn on Venezuela or Iran. What do you think they'll turn on?

Dr. Larry Arnn (35:43)

No, no, you know, it's the economy, stupid people. You know, it's the good sense of the American people. Since long about 1960, as the government began to be centralized, it lost the trust of the people and it deserves to lose it wastes a lot of money, lives for itself too much. The accountable parts of the government, the parts that are elected, are relatively weaker compared to the permanent parts. Now, Trump has been addressing that more effectively than anyone has since it began to be a problem in America. So people are disaffected with the government and that means that they used to not do this. For most of American history, there used to be party in power for a generation at a time and they would tend to control both the executive and the legislative branches. But since 1960, it's much more common for the for the powers to be divided. The Republicans control both houses narrowly. Now and the executive branch. But midterms tend to run against that. And so that means, I think that might be the explanation for that phenomenon, which is not characteristic of most of American history. So, you know, in 1800, when Thomas Jefferson's party basically destroyed the Federalist Party that had founded the country, he controlled the Congress and went on to do it for a long time. And then the Republicans did it for a long time after the after the amazing career and the Civil War of Abraham Lincoln. So this new thing is people have a lot of complaints, and they're right to have them. Sometimes they have ones that are not right to have and sometimes wrong that are right to have, but they certainly have ground for a lot of complaints. The government is expensive, it's inefficient, it's intrusive, and it gives away a lot of stuff. Not all fairly. Look at the Somali thing in Minnesota and Ohio right now. So, yeah. And who knows what's going to happen?

Hugh Hewitt (37:44)

But it'll be interesting and we will cover it. Not most weeks, but occasionally we cover current events on the Oakdale Dialogue, like today. We'll be back next week talking Winston Churchill and the opening moves before the opening battle of World War II. So don't miss next week's Hillsdale Dialogue. Thank you, Dr. Larry Arnold.

Scott Bertram (38:12)

Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at Podcast hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to Hillsdale.

Dr. Larry Arnn (38:29)

Eduardo.