History As It Happens: Episode Summary

Title: 3 Years of War: Ukraine's Story
Host: Martin Di Caro
Guest: Yaroslav Trofimov, Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondent, The Wall Street Journal
Release Date: February 28, 2025

Introduction

In the third installment of the series on the Russo-Ukrainian War, Martin Di Caro delves deep into Ukraine's tumultuous history and its enduring struggle for national survival. This episode, titled "3 Years of War: Ukraine's Story," features an in-depth conversation with Yaroslav Trofimov, a seasoned journalist and author of the novel No Country for Love. Trofimov provides a nuanced perspective on the historical and contemporary factors shaping the conflict between Ukraine and Russia.

Historical Context

The episode begins by setting the stage with Ukraine's tragic history under Soviet and Nazi regimes. Di Caro references Ukrainians lighting candles to honor the millions who perished due to Stalin's collectivization program and the atrocities committed during World War II.

• Yaroslav Trofimov [02:35]:
  "So this is the tragedy of Ukraine because it was really squeezed between Soviet totalitarianism that committed genocide according to most historians, and then the Nazis who committed genocide in the Holocaust and had very little regard for Ukrainians and tried to kill and succeeded in killing most Jews."

Trofimov recounts his personal family history, highlighting the resilience required to survive such oppressive regimes. This backdrop is essential to understanding the current conflict, as Ukraine's quest for independence is deeply rooted in its past struggles.

Current Conflict and Political Dynamics

The discussion transitions to the present-day conflict, emphasizing that Ukraine is once again fighting for its sovereignty amidst external pressures from Russia and geopolitical maneuvers involving the United States.

• Yaroslav Trofimov [05:16]:
  "President Trump had the phone call with President Putin of Russia, the first such direct communication between the American and Russian presidents since Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022. And what is stunning is that he came away from that, basically repeating all the Russian talking points. You know, he did say that Ukraine started the war."

Trofimov critiques President Trump's stance, suggesting that Trump's adoption of Putin's narrative undermines Ukraine's position and prolongs the conflict. He underscores the minimal territorial gains Russia has made despite significant military losses, painting a bleak picture of Russia's advancing war effort.

Analyzing Putin's Strategy

A significant portion of the conversation analyzes Vladimir Putin's contradictory narrative regarding Ukraine. Putin's assertion that Russians and Ukrainians are "one people" is examined critically.

• Yaroslav Trofimov [07:48]:
  "Russia is not short of contradictions. And that is a line that goes throughout history, throughout the Russian view of Ukraine is that, you know, Ukrainians are Russians. Any attempt to foster a separate language or identity in Ukraine is a plot by foreign powers intent on harming Russia."

Trofimov highlights how Russia's historical attempts to suppress Ukrainian identity—evident during the Soviet era and resurfacing in contemporary policies—fuel the ongoing tension. He points out the heavy human cost of these policies, referencing Stalin's execution of Ukrainian intelligentsia and the prolonged insurgency for Ukrainian independence.

NATO's Role and Future Implications

The conversation shifts to NATO's involvement and the broader implications for European security. Trofimov discusses the complexities surrounding Ukraine's potential NATO membership and the shifting dynamics within European defense policies.

• Yaroslav Trofimov [10:44]:
  "Ukraine is the shield of Europe. Now, Ukraine has an army, you know, close to a million men and women with a lot more tanks and artillery than many European armies... And Russia's eyes are not just upon Ukraine. Putin wants to reframe what he calls the security architecture of Europe."

Trofimov explains that while Russia remains a larger country with more resources, its advancements in the war are slow and costly. He argues that Europe’s reliance on Ukraine as a defensive shield is precarious, especially if reassurance from the United States wanes. The potential for European countries to bolster their defense spending is discussed, alongside concerns about their political stability and commitment.

Prospects for Peace and Escalation

Diving into the diplomatic front, Di Caro and Trofimov explore possible outcomes of ongoing negotiations, particularly focusing on the feasibility of Russia imposing its terms.

• Yaroslav Trofimov [12:56]:
  "President Putin has, in a public setting, you know, described the Estonian city of Narva as historical Russian land... This is a dream that is in no way matched by the current capacity of the Russian state."

Trofimov contends that while Russia might seek to secure occupied territories and potentially influence broader European borders, its current military and economic strain make sustained conflict unsustainable. However, he warns that compromising Ukraine’s sovereignty could leave Europe vulnerable, especially if NATO's cohesion weakens.

Yaroslav Trofimov's Novel: No Country for Love

Interwoven with the political and historical analysis, Trofimov discusses his novel, No Country for Love, which serves as a narrative exploration of Ukraine's past horrors through the lens of personal tragedy.

• Yaroslav Trofimov [25:01]:
  "I really wanted to tell the story of Ukraine through the story of my grandmother... the extent of that famine that the US Congress now calls genocide was hidden from the rest of the world."

The novel portrays the protagonist Deborah, a Ukrainian Jewish woman navigating the perilous landscape of Soviet and Nazi oppression. Trofimov emphasizes the moral complexities faced by individuals during such times, highlighting themes of survival, sacrifice, and the erosion of personal and collective identity.

Contemporary Reflections and Universal Lessons

Trofimov draws parallels between historical indifference leading to atrocities and contemporary societal complacency.

• Yaroslav Trofimov [36:20]:
  "The road to destruction of Eastern Ukraine was paved with indifference as well... People who ignore politics, at the end of the day, you know, politics doesn't ignore them, so they pay the price."

This reflection serves as a cautionary tale about the dangers of political apathy and the importance of societal engagement in preventing the erosion of democratic values.

Conclusion and Future Outlook

As the episode concludes, Di Caro and Trofimov contemplate the uncertain future of the war and its broader implications for international relations.

• Yaroslav Trofimov [37:54]:
  "The rule book of the world as we know it has been thrown away... we're back to this very might makes right system."

Trofimov expresses concern that the normalization of aggressive power politics could lead to further destabilization and conflict, reminiscent of historical cycles of dominance and resistance.

Key Takeaways

1. Historical Roots: Ukraine's current struggle is deeply rooted in its history of subjugation under Soviet and Nazi regimes, shaping its resilient quest for sovereignty.

2. Political Manipulation: External political figures, notably President Trump, have influenced the narrative and trajectory of the conflict, often to Ukraine's detriment.

3. Russian Contradictions: Putin's contradictory stance on Ukrainian identity serves as a foundational justification for ongoing aggression, despite considerable military losses.

4. NATO and European Security: The stability and future of European security are closely tied to NATO’s role and the cohesion of European defense strategies amidst evolving geopolitical threats.

5. Human Element: Trofimov’s literary work underscores the personal and moral dilemmas faced by individuals in times of conflict, providing a humanistic lens to historical and current events.

6. Cautionary Reflections: The episode serves as a warning against societal indifference and the resurgence of "might makes right" dynamics in international relations.

Notable Quotes

• Martin Di Caro [07:42]:
  "There's a contradiction in Putin's interpretation. If they're one and the same people, then why are you treating them this way?"

• Yaroslav Trofimov [09:27]:
  "Ukraine is the shield of Europe... And Russia's eyes are not just upon Ukraine. Putin wants to reframe what he calls the security architecture of Europe."

• Yaroslav Trofimov [18:47]:
  "Russia's ambitions have never changed. Russia's ambitions are to control all of Ukraine because the very existence of Ukraine is a separate state, you know, threatens the entire foundational myth of the Russian empire."

• Yaroslav Trofimov [36:10]:
  "Ukraine was a uniquely horrible place in the mid-20th century, but... today, there are other places in the world right now where people grapple with similar moral choices."

Final Thoughts

"3 Years of War: Ukraine's Story" offers a comprehensive examination of the enduring conflict between Ukraine and Russia, enriched by Yaroslav Trofimov's historical insights and personal narratives. The episode not only sheds light on the geopolitical intricacies but also underscores the profound human cost of war and the enduring spirit of a nation striving for its identity and independence.

For listeners seeking to understand the multifaceted dimensions of the Russo-Ukrainian War, this episode provides both a detailed historical account and a poignant literary perspective, making it a valuable resource for comprehending the complexities of contemporary global conflicts.

Stay Tuned: In the next episode of History As It Happens, Martin Di Caro will pivot to the Middle East, exploring the ramifications of Ariel Sharon's 2005 disengagement from Gaza and its connection to the events of October 7, 2023.

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