History As It Happens — "American Fascism, American Hitlers"

Host: Martin Di Caro
Guest: Gavriel D. Rosenfeld, historian at Fairfield University and President of the Center for Jewish History
Date: February 6, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode explores the resonance and misuse of fascism and Hitler analogies in contemporary American discourse. Through a robust conversation with historian Gavriel Rosenfeld, the show investigates whether "American fascism" exists, how to responsibly compare the present to the Nazi past, and what dangers—and insights—are contained in the analogies that saturate our politics. The discussion considers the roots of American right-wing populism, the historical reality of American Nazi and fascist movements, and how terms like "fascism" often obscure more than they reveal.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Ubiquity (and Danger) of Fascist Analogies

• Hitler & Nazis as Default References:
  • Since Donald Trump's emergence in politics in 2015, scholars, journalists, and commentators have debated whether his movement is fascist, often equating fascism with Nazism.
  • Rosenfeld: “Every American president since Herbert Hoover has been attacked as either a fascist or someone tantamount to Hitler.” (02:05, 09:24)
• Concerns Over Hyperbole:
  • Using Nazi analogies too freely may obscure the unique features of each era and dilute the historical specificity of Nazism.
  • Host Martin Di Caro: “As bad as things are in America today, it's not as bad as it was then. So I guess that's where I'm—I'm struggling here.” (17:57)

2. Appropriate vs. Inappropriate Analogies

• Balancing Historical Memory:
  • Need to “stress differences as well as similarities” (02:05, 09:24) — remembering Santayana’s warning ("those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it") while also recalling Friedrich's retort ("those who cannot forget the past are condemned to misunderstand it"). (05:34)
• Political Rhetoric vs. Analysis:
  • Alarmist language about fascism is often used for effect rather than accuracy:
    • Rosenfeld: “It pays, based on the economy of attention on the Internet, to invoke the worst possible case scenario ... which is Nazism.” (15:12)
• American Historical Parallels:
  • Host questions if the Trump movement is better understood via American figures and phenomena (Pat Buchanan, George Wallace, the nativist Know Nothing movement, the KKK…) than European interwar fascism. (13:28)

3. Defining (American) Fascism

• Comparative Definitions:
  • Rosenfeld highlights major academic attempts:
    • Robert Paxton’s behavioral approach (fascism as action and style)
    • Roger Griffin’s palingenetic ultranationalism (the myth of national rebirth)
• Core Distinction:
  • “I tend to...see fascism existing in a Venn diagram relationship with populism. Where the two really diverge...is in the area of violence.” (23:35)
  • Modern forms: today’s right-wing populism may resemble “illiberal democracy" rather than outright fascism. (23:35)
• Does an American tradition exist?
  • There are homegrown American traditions of nativism and violence. Applying “fascist” to the pre-Nazi period (e.g., calling the Klan of the 1860s the first fascist movement) is anachronistic but sometimes done for political impact. (20:23)

4. The Reality of Historic American Fascists

• American Nazi & Fascist Movements:
  • The German American Bund of the 1930s (noted for its 1939 Madison Square Garden rally) was mostly made up of recent German immigrants, not native-born Americans. (07:05, 35:35)
  • Other domestic groups included the Silver Shirts, Father Coughlin’s organizations, Black Legion, and various strains of the KKK, with varying degrees of influence and connections to European fascism. (35:35)
  • Their popular appeal was always limited, especially after World War II began. (37:28)

5. The Modern Immigration Paramilitary Analogy (ICE as Brownshirts?)

• Host grapples with his own use of the “Brownshirts” analogy for ICE.
  • Di Caro: “Rather than call ICE another form of the Brownshirts...both major political parties are responsible for pouring billions of dollars into militarized immigration enforcement since 2001...” (13:28)
  • Rosenfeld: There are significant historical continuities in U.S. policy toward immigrants, predating Trump by decades. (15:12)
  • On ICE: “If...far right wing extremists like the Proud Boys...have been hired...to unleash havoc and mayhem...I could certainly see some premeditation that's comparable to using paramilitaries the way the Nazis did. But of course this is an existing government agency ... so the comparison is worth entertaining.” (42:14)

6. The Danger of Centralized Power

• Shift in GOP from State to Federal Power:
  • Rosenfeld notes the irony in Trump’s tendency to centralize state power, given generations of Republican rhetoric about small government. “Anytime you’re in a position where you're starting to centralize state power, that is getting into a more fascist orbit. I'm not saying it's fascism itself, but it is moving in that direction.” (26:42)

7. American Populists and Uniqueness of Trump

• Trump as Part of a Longer Tradition:
  • Rosenfeld: “I would favor the line of argumentation that sees him as the most recent incarnation of a right wing populist tradition in American history...” (46:53)
  • References to Shays’ Rebellion, the Paranoid Style (Hofstadter), John Birch Society, Pat Buchanan, George Wallace…
  • The difference is Trump’s rise “to a position of state power” — a populist now wields the levers of the federal government. (48:14)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Historical Analogies & Danger:
  • “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. One must be careful not to lose sight of Otto Friedrich's retort that those who cannot forget the past are condemned to misunderstand it.” (05:34, Di Caro referencing Rosenfeld)
• On the Overused Hitler Analogies:
  • “By the end of World War II, they realized none of those historical precedents helped to make sense of Hitler because he was so much more extreme. That after 1945, everyone said…we're going to always use Hitler…as the default comparison.” (17:57, Rosenfeld)
• On the Definition of Fascism:
  • “I do think that the use of violence is when populism tips over into fascism.” (23:35, Rosenfeld)
• On the Seductiveness of Nazi Analogies:
  • “It pays…to invoke the worst possible case scenario and the worst possible precedent, which is Nazism.” (15:12, Rosenfeld)
• On American Nazi Movements:
  • “There is an indigenous American form of fascism that's not just copycat.” (36:38, Rosenfeld)
• On the Persistent Appeal of the Nazi Past:
  • “The Third Reich will not go away, but continues to command the attention of thinking people throughout the world long after it has passed into history.” (03:38, 51:10, quoting Richard Evans)

Important Timestamps

• [02:05] — Rosenfeld on the legitimacy but pitfalls of Nazi analogies in American discourse.
• [09:24] — The challenge for historians: drawing connections without alarmism.
• [13:28] — Di Caro critiques the tendency to focus on Hitler instead of homegrown U.S. populism.
• [15:12] — Rosenfeld on media rhetoric vs. sober historical analysis.
• [20:23] — Defining American fascism and the anachronism of labeling the KKK as "fascist."
• [23:35] — The behavioral distinction between populism and fascism: violence as the fault line.
• [26:42] — On the centralization of power being a step toward fascism, regardless of ideology.
• [35:35] — American Nazi and fascist movements in the 1930s.
• [42:14] — The complexities of comparing ICE to Nazi paramilitaries.
• [46:53] — Trump as the culmination of a tradition of American right-wing populism.
• [51:10] — The persistent relevance of the Nazi example and why we study it.

Flow & Tone

The episode is marked by careful, self-reflective analysis and precise, nuanced debate. Both host and guest stress sobriety and caution in using terms like “fascism” and “Hitler,” but do not deny the value of historical analogy when used judiciously. The conversation is intellectually rigorous yet accessible, never losing sight of moral seriousness, but rejecting alarmist and simplistic soundbites. Throughout, the host’s voice is measured, openly wrestling with the challenges of interpreting disquieting trends in the U.S. while resisting false equivalency or minimization.

Conclusion

This episode of History As It Happens delivers a rich, balanced, and deeply informed conversation about the American use—and misuse—of fascism and Hitler analogies. It ultimately advocates for careful historical reasoning, attention to specificity and difference, and an awareness of the political stakes and potential dangers of rhetorical overreach. Rather than simple answers, listeners are left with methods for thinking through current anxieties with clarity and historical depth.

Further Reading

• Gavriel D. Rosenfeld, The Fourth Reich: The Specter of Nazism since World War II (2019)
• Richard Evans, The Coming of the Third Reich
• Robert Paxton, The Anatomy of Fascism
• Roger Griffin, The Nature of Fascism