Bonus Ep! Is It Fascism Now?

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

History As It Happens – Bonus Ep! Is It Fascism Now?
Host: Martin Di Caro
Guest: Roger Griffin (Professor Emeritus of Modern History, Oxford Brookes University, authority on fascism)
Date: January 28, 2026

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Overview

This bonus episode explores the renewed and urgent debate over whether recent, violent federal actions—particularly in Minnesota under President Trump—represent a new form of American fascism. Host Martin Di Caro and renowned historian Roger Griffin delve deep into the meaning, origins, and applicability of the term “fascism,” discussing whether what we’re witnessing in the United States fits established historical definitions and what distinguishes authentic fascist movements from other forms of authoritarianism.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Immediate Trigger: Violence in Minnesota

• Di Caro opens with a powerful, current example: Federal paramilitary forces in Minnesota using violence and terror against citizens and immigrants ([00:00]).
• Multiple perspectives are represented: Law enforcement describes protesters as threats, while community activists and civil rights advocates decry government overreach and brutality ([00:24-01:12]).
• The murder of Alex Pretty by federal agents becomes a flashpoint, prompting public backlash—even among Trump supporters ([01:12]).

2. The Recurring Fascism Debate

• Di Caro frames the ongoing debate: Is Trumpism actually fascism, or does “fascism” only pertain to Europe’s past ([01:12-01:59])?
• He introduces Roger Griffin, emphasizing Griffin’s influential definition from his 1991 book The Nature of Fascism ([01:59]).

3. Griffin’s Definition of Fascism

• Griffin acknowledges that attempts to “nail down” fascism are notoriously slippery ([02:55]).
• Core Definition:
  “Fascism is a genus of political ideology whose mythic core... is a palingenetic form of populist ultranationalism.” – [Host reading Griffin, 02:38]
• Griffin remains committed to his original definition, which emphasizes the concept of palingenesis—that is, national rebirth ([02:55-04:23]).
• Quote:
  “The hallmark of my definition is this adjective that nobody used before much in political science, and it just means rebirth.” – Roger Griffin ([04:25])

4. Palingenetic Populist Ultranationalism Explained

• Griffin and the host elaborate on the rebirth theme: Fascism is not just about destroying liberal democracy or scapegoating minorities; it’s a revolutionary project aiming to “kill” democracy and resurrect the nation as a unified, mythic collective ([04:23-05:56]).
• Quote:
  “It is a specifically anti-democratic form of revolutionary politics that turns the nation into a mythic beast that wants to create a new form of itself.” – Roger Griffin ([04:43])

5. From Individual Rights to Volksgemeinschaft

• The vision is a “people’s community” (Volksgemeinschaft) over individual rights—a transformation from citizens with voting rights to a unified, organic entity ([05:53]).
• Quote:
  “This is a Volksgemeinschaft, this is a popular or people's community which has a sort of group ethos, like a huge... like the Greek is zoonpolitikon.” – Roger Griffin ([05:56])

6. Comparison with Liberal Democracy’s Ideals

• Post-WWI liberal democracy imagined an international order of nation-states with shared, if imperfect, democratic principles ([06:34-07:04]).
• But fascism, according to Griffin, entirely rejects this vision in favor of exclusion, group unity, and aggressive rebirth narratives ([05:53-06:26]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “What side do you want to be on? The side of an all powerful federal government that can kill, injure, menace and kidnap its citizens off the streets? Or on the side of a nurse at the VA hospital who died bearing witness to such government?”
  – Civil Rights Advocate ([00:59])

• “I wanted to nail this thing, this thing called fascism that seemed to wriggle all over the place and was polymorphous and kept shape changing...”
  – Roger Griffin ([02:55])

• “There's now a whole second or third generation of graffini of people who use my definition very creatively...”
  – Griffin, discussing his influence on scholarship ([04:10])

• “Fascism was not just the destruction of liberalism within a democratic state... It is a specifically anti-democratic form of revolutionary politics that turns the nation into a mythic beast that wants to create a new form of itself.”
  – Roger Griffin ([04:43])

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• 00:00: Opening – Violent federal activities in Minnesota; protests and community/law enforcement voices
• 01:12: Introduction of the “Is it fascism?” debate in light of recent events
• 01:59: Introduction of Roger Griffin and his definition of fascism
• 02:55: Griffin explains the origin and durability of his definition
• 04:25: Palingenesis (“rebirth”) at the core of fascism explored in depth
• 04:43-05:56: The mythic transformation from democracy to collectivist Volksgemeinschaft
• 06:34: Comparison with liberal democratic ideals post-WWI

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Episode Flow & Tone

• The conversation is candid, intellectually engaging, and avoids jargon unless necessary—always explained for clarity.
• Griffin is self-reflective, even wry (“here my Trumpian egomania is getting the better of me”, [04:08]).
• The topics are approached with urgency and seriousness, rooted in both current events and historical rigor.

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Summary

This episode is a must-listen for anyone wrestling with the concepts of fascism, authoritarianism, and the current American political crisis. With a mixture of pressing contemporary examples, personal reflection, and clear historical grounding, Martin Di Caro and Roger Griffin interrogate what, if anything, makes “American fascism” distinct—and what history does and doesn’t teach us about labeling present dangers.

For the rest of the discussion and full analysis, listeners are encouraged to subscribe to the podcast.

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Transcript

[Host]

This is a bonus episode of history as it happens. It's January 28, 2026. On the streets of Minnesota. A federal paramilitary force in combat gear is executing a deliberate policy of terror and violence against American citizens and their immigrant neighbors.

[Law Enforcement Official]

This individual showed up to a law enforcement operation with a weapon and dozens of rounds of ammunition. Ammunition. He wasn't there to peacefully protest. He was there to perpetuate violence.

[Community Activist]

I'm done being told that our community members are responsible for the vitriol in our streets.

[Law Enforcement Spokesperson]

When someone makes the choice to come into an active law enforcement scene, interfere, obstruct, delay or assault law enforcement officers and, and, and they bring a weapon to do that, that is a, that is a choice that that individual made.

[Civil Rights Advocate]

What side do you want to be on? The side of an all powerful federal government that can kill, injure, menace and kidnap its citizens off the streets? Or on the side of a nurse at the VA hospital who died bearing witness to such government?

[Host]

The backlash to the murder of Alex Pretty by trigger happy federal agents has been so intense that even some of President Trump's sycophantic defenders are now saying the violent immigration rates have gone too far. All this has intensified a debate that's been roiling since 2016. Is Trumpism a form of fascism? Is fascism a political ideology or a set of behaviors? Is there an American type of fascism? Or does this political phenomenon belong to the bygone era of interwar Europe, where it died in 1945? Roger Griffin is an authority on fascism, professor emeritus of Modern History at Oxford Brookes University in England. He and I have been talking about fascism for the past several years. Roger Griffin, welcome back, my friend.

[Roger Griffin]

Well, thank you very much.

[Host]

I was mistaken to think that the fascism debate had gone away. What a fool I am. I would say it's been renewed recently by what's Going on in Minnesota, but it never really went away. So my first question to you. I'm holding a book written by a fellow by the name of Roger Griffin, first published in the early 1990s, the nature of fascism. Chapter two, a concise definition. Fascism is a genus of political ideology whose mythic core and its various permutations is a palingenetic form of populist ultranationalism. I'm starting with this because not everyone listens to every episode. It has been a few years since you first appeared and introduced me and the audience to your one sentence definition. You're watching what's going on in Minnesota right now. Is that fascism? Why or why not or how has your Definition of the term changed.

[Roger Griffin]

Well, let's go back to my one sentence definition. There's a Woody Allen. I know he's become toxic because of his gender issues, but Woody Allen tells a joke of asking the rabbi if there is a meaning to life. And he says yes, and tells him the meaning of life in one sentence, but he says it in Hebrew and then he wants to charge Woody Allen $15 an hour to teach him the Hebrew to understand the meaning of life. And so I, when I was a naive, not even very ambitious, it was really personal curiosity. I wanted to nail this thing, this thing called fascism that seemed to wriggle all over the place and was polymorphous and kept shape changing and all that. And I wanted to nail it down and turn it into a normal concept, which I didn't succeed in doing. But what I did do, when I read a lot of fascists, some of them self confessed fascists, some of them obviously very much a part of the family, I saw a pattern which I crystallized in that sentence and I have not erred from that. In fact, what's been remarkable about my own personal career, and here my Trumpian egomania is getting the better of me.

[Interviewer/Host's Colleague]

There's now a whole second or third.

[Roger Griffin]

Generation of graffini of people who use my definition very creatively. They modify it, they apply it to local circumstances, but the basic core stays there. What is this basic core?

[Interviewer/Host's Colleague]

Well, the word palingenetic is a bit.

[Roger Griffin]

Like one of those little copyright symbols that you put into a song or whatever, but anybody can use it and I don't get money for it. But basically it's the hallmark of my definition is this adjective that nobody used before much in political science, and it just means rebirth.

[Interviewer/Host's Colleague]

So fascism, from the study of the events of fascism and from the pronouncements of fascists was not just the destruction of liberalism within a democratic state. In other words, it wasn't just a rabid form of anti migration, anti woke, anti feminist, anti internationalist democracy, where you start saying France for the French or Germany for the Germans, and let's get rid of all these alien elements which are messing up our democracy. It is a specifically anti democratic form of revolutionary politics that turns the nation into a mythic beast that wants to create a new form of itself. It wants to die as a democracy and rise as a phoenix into a new order. Neue Ordnung with a new population which is no longer a population of individual citizens applying their citizen right to voting. This is a Volksgemeinschaft this is a popular or people's community which has a sort of group ethos, like a huge. Well, like the Greek is zoonpolitikon.

[Roger Griffin]

This is a big political animal called.

[Interviewer/Host's Colleague]

The Germans, the Americans, the British, and they form this huge being, this entity, this leviathan, if you want to go into history. But that would take us to another podcast. And this being has been destroyed from within by all sorts of horrible democratic.

[Roger Griffin]

Forces, like the ideas of equality and the ideas of a multicultural society, or.

[Interviewer/Host's Colleague]

The ideas of that homosexuals have rights or that international trade doesn't affect our sense of who we are, et cetera.

[Host]

Or the idea that we're supposed to be seeking peace with the world. Right. Because fascism has a belligerence to it as well.

[Roger Griffin]

Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer/Host's Colleague]

The international vision of liberal democracy after the First World War is an international order based on nation states informed by liberal democratic principles, broadly. Now, these are very edited principles because.

[Roger Griffin]

They exclude women from voting largely, and.

[Interviewer/Host's Colleague]

Certainly children, and they also have all.

[Roger Griffin]

Sorts of xenophobic bits in them. But nevertheless, the idea of an international.

[Interviewer/Host's Colleague]

Order held together by some sort of a consensus about liberal democratic.

[Host]

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