Podcast Summary:

History As It Happens – Bonus Ep! Is It Fascism Now?
Host: Martin Di Caro
Guest: Roger Griffin (Professor Emeritus of Modern History, Oxford Brookes University, authority on fascism)
Date: January 28, 2026

Overview

This bonus episode explores the renewed and urgent debate over whether recent, violent federal actions—particularly in Minnesota under President Trump—represent a new form of American fascism. Host Martin Di Caro and renowned historian Roger Griffin delve deep into the meaning, origins, and applicability of the term “fascism,” discussing whether what we’re witnessing in the United States fits established historical definitions and what distinguishes authentic fascist movements from other forms of authoritarianism.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Immediate Trigger: Violence in Minnesota

• Di Caro opens with a powerful, current example: Federal paramilitary forces in Minnesota using violence and terror against citizens and immigrants ([00:00]).
• Multiple perspectives are represented: Law enforcement describes protesters as threats, while community activists and civil rights advocates decry government overreach and brutality ([00:24-01:12]).
• The murder of Alex Pretty by federal agents becomes a flashpoint, prompting public backlash—even among Trump supporters ([01:12]).

2. The Recurring Fascism Debate

• Di Caro frames the ongoing debate: Is Trumpism actually fascism, or does “fascism” only pertain to Europe’s past ([01:12-01:59])?
• He introduces Roger Griffin, emphasizing Griffin’s influential definition from his 1991 book The Nature of Fascism ([01:59]).

3. Griffin’s Definition of Fascism

• Griffin acknowledges that attempts to “nail down” fascism are notoriously slippery ([02:55]).
• Core Definition:
  “Fascism is a genus of political ideology whose mythic core... is a palingenetic form of populist ultranationalism.” – [Host reading Griffin, 02:38]
• Griffin remains committed to his original definition, which emphasizes the concept of palingenesis—that is, national rebirth ([02:55-04:23]).
• Quote:
  “The hallmark of my definition is this adjective that nobody used before much in political science, and it just means rebirth.” – Roger Griffin ([04:25])

4. Palingenetic Populist Ultranationalism Explained

• Griffin and the host elaborate on the rebirth theme: Fascism is not just about destroying liberal democracy or scapegoating minorities; it’s a revolutionary project aiming to “kill” democracy and resurrect the nation as a unified, mythic collective ([04:23-05:56]).
• Quote:
  “It is a specifically anti-democratic form of revolutionary politics that turns the nation into a mythic beast that wants to create a new form of itself.” – Roger Griffin ([04:43])

5. From Individual Rights to Volksgemeinschaft

• The vision is a “people’s community” (Volksgemeinschaft) over individual rights—a transformation from citizens with voting rights to a unified, organic entity ([05:53]).
• Quote:
  “This is a Volksgemeinschaft, this is a popular or people's community which has a sort of group ethos, like a huge... like the Greek is zoonpolitikon.” – Roger Griffin ([05:56])

6. Comparison with Liberal Democracy’s Ideals

• Post-WWI liberal democracy imagined an international order of nation-states with shared, if imperfect, democratic principles ([06:34-07:04]).
• But fascism, according to Griffin, entirely rejects this vision in favor of exclusion, group unity, and aggressive rebirth narratives ([05:53-06:26]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “What side do you want to be on? The side of an all powerful federal government that can kill, injure, menace and kidnap its citizens off the streets? Or on the side of a nurse at the VA hospital who died bearing witness to such government?”
  – Civil Rights Advocate ([00:59])

• “I wanted to nail this thing, this thing called fascism that seemed to wriggle all over the place and was polymorphous and kept shape changing...”
  – Roger Griffin ([02:55])

• “There's now a whole second or third generation of graffini of people who use my definition very creatively...”
  – Griffin, discussing his influence on scholarship ([04:10])

• “Fascism was not just the destruction of liberalism within a democratic state... It is a specifically anti-democratic form of revolutionary politics that turns the nation into a mythic beast that wants to create a new form of itself.”
  – Roger Griffin ([04:43])

Timestamps of Important Segments

• 00:00: Opening – Violent federal activities in Minnesota; protests and community/law enforcement voices
• 01:12: Introduction of the “Is it fascism?” debate in light of recent events
• 01:59: Introduction of Roger Griffin and his definition of fascism
• 02:55: Griffin explains the origin and durability of his definition
• 04:25: Palingenesis (“rebirth”) at the core of fascism explored in depth
• 04:43-05:56: The mythic transformation from democracy to collectivist Volksgemeinschaft
• 06:34: Comparison with liberal democratic ideals post-WWI

Episode Flow & Tone

• The conversation is candid, intellectually engaging, and avoids jargon unless necessary—always explained for clarity.
• Griffin is self-reflective, even wry (“here my Trumpian egomania is getting the better of me”, [04:08]).
• The topics are approached with urgency and seriousness, rooted in both current events and historical rigor.

Summary

This episode is a must-listen for anyone wrestling with the concepts of fascism, authoritarianism, and the current American political crisis. With a mixture of pressing contemporary examples, personal reflection, and clear historical grounding, Martin Di Caro and Roger Griffin interrogate what, if anything, makes “American fascism” distinct—and what history does and doesn’t teach us about labeling present dangers.

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