Podcast Summary: History As It Happens

Episode: Bonus Ep! MBS Comes to Washington
Host: Martin Di Caro
Guest: Trita Parsi (Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft)
Date: November 20, 2025

Episode Overview

This bonus episode delves into Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman's (MBS) state visit to Washington and his meeting with President Donald Trump. Host Martin Di Caro and guest Trita Parsi analyze the implications for U.S.–Saudi relations, American foreign policy, human rights controversies, and the evolving dynamics of Middle East diplomacy. The discussion critically examines the tension between U.S. strategic interests and values, as well as the potential consequences of closer security ties with Saudi Arabia.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Controversy of MBS’s Visit

• Scene-Setter: The episode opens with a tense Oval Office exchange, highlighting Trump’s supportive stance towards MBS despite Saudi Arabia’s repressive record and the shadow of Jamal Khashoggi’s murder.
• Surge in Executions: Host notes the dramatic increase in executions in Saudi Arabia, underscoring the regime’s harshness ([00:00]).

Notable Moment:

Donald Trump (President, in Oval Office): “As far as this gentleman is concerned, he’s done a phenomenal job... He knew nothing about it. And we can leave it at that.” ([01:18])

2. MBS's Justifications and Frictions on 9/11 & Khashoggi

• MBS’s Defense: MBS frames the 9/11 attacks as an attempt to undermine U.S.–Saudi ties, urging a focus on “reality” and joint interests ([01:42]).
• Khashoggi’s Murder: He calls the killing “painful” and a “huge mistake,” contending that reforms have minimized future risks, while deflecting full responsibility ([02:25]).

Notable Quote:

Mohammed bin Salman: "We’ve did all the right steps of investigation, etc. in Saudi Arabia and we’ve improved our system... it’s painful and it’s a huge mistake and we are doing our best that this doesn’t happen again." ([02:25])

3. Evolution of U.S.–Saudi Relations (Biden to Trump)

Parsi traces relations from Biden’s critical approach—branding Saudi Arabia a “pariah”—to the subsequent softening and increased willingness to cut deals behind the scenes.

• Biden’s Promises vs. Reality: Biden vowed to end support for the Yemen war and treat Saudi Arabia as a pariah, but soon shifted toward pragmatic engagement and possible defense offers to secure Saudi–Israel normalization ([04:27]–[07:25]).
• Behind-the-Scenes Deals: Despite lacking the symbolic embrace, Biden’s administration considered far-reaching security and nuclear offers to Saudi Arabia—possibly exceeding those under Trump ([07:27]).

Direct Quote from 2020 (Candidate Biden):

Joe Biden: “We were not going to, in fact, sell more weapons to them... make them, in fact, the pariah that they are. There’s very little social redeeming value in the present government.” ([05:56])

Parsi on Hypocrisy:

Trita Parsi: “On substance, the Biden administration appeared to have been ready to offer more in terms of defense obligations to the Saudis than what the Trump administration appears to be doing.” ([07:27])

4. The Reality of Policy vs. Rhetoric

• No Details on Defense Pact: Trump announces an agreement without specifics ([09:55]).

• Balancing Act: Di Caro and Parsi underscore the difficulty of balancing U.S. strategic interests with supporting autocrats ([10:05]).

Parsi on “No Illusions” Approach:

Trita Parsi: “The Trump administration does not pretend to be a beacon of human rights... I much rather have an administration that is not facilitating genocide in this case... Getting rid of this pretense... may be helpful.” ([11:05])

5. What Do the U.S. and Saudi Arabia Want From Each Other?

• U.S. Needs (or Not?): Parsi downplays the traditional argument that Saudi Arabia’s resources or status justify a defense pact. He warns against overextending U.S. commitments and fuelling arms races ([13:42]).
• Saudi Leverage: Saudi Arabia plays a powerful middle power game, leveraging its position between the U.S., China, and others, using investment and AI collaboration as carrots ([13:42]-[16:43]).

Parsi on U.S. Overreach:

Trita Parsi: “That alliance system has got us offering security guarantees and weapons to all three sides in various conflicts. And that in of itself tells us that, you know, perhaps we have overextended ourselves a little bit.” ([13:42])

6. The Substance Behind the Fluff

• Uncertain Promises: Trump trumpets hypothetical investments and arms sales (e.g., F-35s, which may never materialize), but most pledges are “fluff” ([16:43]-[16:54]).
• AI & Strategic Tech: The one concrete area might be U.S.-Saudi cooperation in AI, which could present strategic risks for the U.S. ([17:27]).

Memorable Moment:

Martin Di Caro: “Yeah, they threw a lot around. A number like a trillion dollars. But these numbers are fictitious.” ([16:49])

Notable Quotes & Moments (in Context)

• On Defending MBS:

  Donald Trump: "You don't have to embarrass our guests by asking a question like just you." ([01:18])

• On the Purpose of 9/11:

  Mohammed bin Salman: "Whoever buying that [Saudis orchestrated 9/11], that means they are helping Osama bin Laden purpose of destroying this relation..." ([01:42])

• On Biden’s Turnaround:

  Trita Parsi: "The Biden administration appeared to have been ready to offer more in terms of defense obligations to the Saudis than what the Trump administration appears to be doing." ([07:27])

• Human Rights Double Standard:

  Trita Parsi: "I sympathize with that. But I'm a little bit jaded right now because they would be happy with the Biden administration pretending to uphold human rights while facilitating a genocide." ([11:05])

• On U.S. Overextension:

  Trita Parsi: "That alliance system has got us offering security guarantees and weapons to all three sides in various conflicts... perhaps we have overextended ourselves a little bit." ([13:42])

Key Timestamps

• [00:00] — Introduction: scene in the Oval Office, overview of Saudi repression, Khashoggi murder
• [01:02] — Press exchange/jousting over Khashoggi in Oval Office
• [01:42] — MBS discussion of 9/11, relations, and Khashoggi murder
• [04:30] — State of U.S.–Saudi relations after Trump's 2025 return
• [05:44] — Biden’s criticism of Saudi Arabia and promises as a candidate
• [07:27] — Behind-the-scenes offerings under Biden; hypocrisy and realpolitik
• [09:55] — Trump claims defense agreement made, but offers no details
• [11:05] — Parsi on realism vs. hypocrisy in human rights policy
• [13:42] — What U.S. and Saudis really offer each other
• [16:49] — Parsi on fluff vs. substance in the U.S.–Saudi meeting

Tone and Original Language

The episode balances sharp skepticism, realism, and a world-weary tone—especially through Parsi’s analysis—while Di Caro presses for clarity and context. Both cut through public relations posturing from leaders, directly referencing the gap between stated values and messy geopolitical realities.

Conclusion

This episode draws a stark picture of U.S.–Saudi relations: one shaped as much by optics and transactional politics as by realpolitik dilemmas. While the U.S. grapples with its self-image and strategic interests, powerful actors like MBS continue to manipulate the rules of engagement. The conversation ultimately asks: At what point do security interests undermine national values, and is the U.S. learning from history—or simply repeating it?