Bonus Ep! MBS Comes to Washington

Summary

Podcast Summary: History As It Happens

Episode: Bonus Ep! MBS Comes to Washington
Host: Martin Di Caro
Guest: Trita Parsi (Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft)
Date: November 20, 2025

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Episode Overview

This bonus episode delves into Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman's (MBS) state visit to Washington and his meeting with President Donald Trump. Host Martin Di Caro and guest Trita Parsi analyze the implications for U.S.–Saudi relations, American foreign policy, human rights controversies, and the evolving dynamics of Middle East diplomacy. The discussion critically examines the tension between U.S. strategic interests and values, as well as the potential consequences of closer security ties with Saudi Arabia.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Controversy of MBS’s Visit

• Scene-Setter: The episode opens with a tense Oval Office exchange, highlighting Trump’s supportive stance towards MBS despite Saudi Arabia’s repressive record and the shadow of Jamal Khashoggi’s murder.
• Surge in Executions: Host notes the dramatic increase in executions in Saudi Arabia, underscoring the regime’s harshness ([00:00]).

Notable Moment:

Donald Trump (President, in Oval Office): “As far as this gentleman is concerned, he’s done a phenomenal job... He knew nothing about it. And we can leave it at that.” ([01:18])

2. MBS's Justifications and Frictions on 9/11 & Khashoggi

• MBS’s Defense: MBS frames the 9/11 attacks as an attempt to undermine U.S.–Saudi ties, urging a focus on “reality” and joint interests ([01:42]).
• Khashoggi’s Murder: He calls the killing “painful” and a “huge mistake,” contending that reforms have minimized future risks, while deflecting full responsibility ([02:25]).

Notable Quote:

Mohammed bin Salman: "We’ve did all the right steps of investigation, etc. in Saudi Arabia and we’ve improved our system... it’s painful and it’s a huge mistake and we are doing our best that this doesn’t happen again." ([02:25])

3. Evolution of U.S.–Saudi Relations (Biden to Trump)

Parsi traces relations from Biden’s critical approach—branding Saudi Arabia a “pariah”—to the subsequent softening and increased willingness to cut deals behind the scenes.

• Biden’s Promises vs. Reality: Biden vowed to end support for the Yemen war and treat Saudi Arabia as a pariah, but soon shifted toward pragmatic engagement and possible defense offers to secure Saudi–Israel normalization ([04:27]–[07:25]).
• Behind-the-Scenes Deals: Despite lacking the symbolic embrace, Biden’s administration considered far-reaching security and nuclear offers to Saudi Arabia—possibly exceeding those under Trump ([07:27]).

Direct Quote from 2020 (Candidate Biden):

Joe Biden: “We were not going to, in fact, sell more weapons to them... make them, in fact, the pariah that they are. There’s very little social redeeming value in the present government.” ([05:56])

Parsi on Hypocrisy:

Trita Parsi: “On substance, the Biden administration appeared to have been ready to offer more in terms of defense obligations to the Saudis than what the Trump administration appears to be doing.” ([07:27])

4. The Reality of Policy vs. Rhetoric

• No Details on Defense Pact: Trump announces an agreement without specifics ([09:55]).

• Balancing Act: Di Caro and Parsi underscore the difficulty of balancing U.S. strategic interests with supporting autocrats ([10:05]).

Parsi on “No Illusions” Approach:

Trita Parsi: “The Trump administration does not pretend to be a beacon of human rights... I much rather have an administration that is not facilitating genocide in this case... Getting rid of this pretense... may be helpful.” ([11:05])

5. What Do the U.S. and Saudi Arabia Want From Each Other?

• U.S. Needs (or Not?): Parsi downplays the traditional argument that Saudi Arabia’s resources or status justify a defense pact. He warns against overextending U.S. commitments and fuelling arms races ([13:42]).
• Saudi Leverage: Saudi Arabia plays a powerful middle power game, leveraging its position between the U.S., China, and others, using investment and AI collaboration as carrots ([13:42]-[16:43]).

Parsi on U.S. Overreach:

Trita Parsi: “That alliance system has got us offering security guarantees and weapons to all three sides in various conflicts. And that in of itself tells us that, you know, perhaps we have overextended ourselves a little bit.” ([13:42])

6. The Substance Behind the Fluff

• Uncertain Promises: Trump trumpets hypothetical investments and arms sales (e.g., F-35s, which may never materialize), but most pledges are “fluff” ([16:43]-[16:54]).
• AI & Strategic Tech: The one concrete area might be U.S.-Saudi cooperation in AI, which could present strategic risks for the U.S. ([17:27]).

Memorable Moment:

Martin Di Caro: “Yeah, they threw a lot around. A number like a trillion dollars. But these numbers are fictitious.” ([16:49])

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Notable Quotes & Moments (in Context)

• On Defending MBS:

  Donald Trump: "You don't have to embarrass our guests by asking a question like just you." ([01:18])

• On the Purpose of 9/11:

  Mohammed bin Salman: "Whoever buying that [Saudis orchestrated 9/11], that means they are helping Osama bin Laden purpose of destroying this relation..." ([01:42])

• On Biden’s Turnaround:

  Trita Parsi: "The Biden administration appeared to have been ready to offer more in terms of defense obligations to the Saudis than what the Trump administration appears to be doing." ([07:27])

• Human Rights Double Standard:

  Trita Parsi: "I sympathize with that. But I'm a little bit jaded right now because they would be happy with the Biden administration pretending to uphold human rights while facilitating a genocide." ([11:05])

• On U.S. Overextension:

  Trita Parsi: "That alliance system has got us offering security guarantees and weapons to all three sides in various conflicts... perhaps we have overextended ourselves a little bit." ([13:42])

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Key Timestamps

• [00:00] — Introduction: scene in the Oval Office, overview of Saudi repression, Khashoggi murder
• [01:02] — Press exchange/jousting over Khashoggi in Oval Office
• [01:42] — MBS discussion of 9/11, relations, and Khashoggi murder
• [04:30] — State of U.S.–Saudi relations after Trump's 2025 return
• [05:44] — Biden’s criticism of Saudi Arabia and promises as a candidate
• [07:27] — Behind-the-scenes offerings under Biden; hypocrisy and realpolitik
• [09:55] — Trump claims defense agreement made, but offers no details
• [11:05] — Parsi on realism vs. hypocrisy in human rights policy
• [13:42] — What U.S. and Saudis really offer each other
• [16:49] — Parsi on fluff vs. substance in the U.S.–Saudi meeting

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Tone and Original Language

The episode balances sharp skepticism, realism, and a world-weary tone—especially through Parsi’s analysis—while Di Caro presses for clarity and context. Both cut through public relations posturing from leaders, directly referencing the gap between stated values and messy geopolitical realities.

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Conclusion

This episode draws a stark picture of U.S.–Saudi relations: one shaped as much by optics and transactional politics as by realpolitik dilemmas. While the U.S. grapples with its self-image and strategic interests, powerful actors like MBS continue to manipulate the rules of engagement. The conversation ultimately asks: At what point do security interests undermine national values, and is the U.S. learning from history—or simply repeating it?

Transcript

[Host]

This is a bonus episode of history as it happens. It's Thursday, November 20th. It was an appalling scene inside the Oval Office. President Trump fawning over one of the most repressive autocrats in the world, Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. According to Freedom House, Saudi Arabia's absolute monarchy restricts almost all political rights and civil liberties. No officials at the national level are elected. The regime relies on pervasive surveillance. The criminalization of dissent appeals to sectarianism and ethnicity and public spending supported by oil revenues to maintain power. The New York Times reports the number of executions in Saudi Arabia has soared as officials use the death penalty against drug smugglers who ferry hashish and amphetamine pills into the Kingdom. At least 320 executions so far this year. In the United States. MBS, as he's often referred to, is best known for his role in the murder of dissident journalist Jamal Khashoggi. Here are Trump and the crown prince being asked about the murder in the Oval Office the other day.

[Trita Parsi]

Royal Highness, the US Intelligence concluded that you orchestrated the brutal murder of a journalist. 911 families are furious that you are here in the Oval Office.

[President Donald Trump]

Who are you with?

[Trita Parsi]

Why should Americans trust me?

[President Donald Trump]

Who are you with?

[Trita Parsi]

And the same to you, Mr. President.

[President Donald Trump]

Now, who are you with?

[Trita Parsi]

I'm with ABC News, sir. You're with who?

[Host]

ABC News, sir.

[President Donald Trump]

Fake News. ABC Fake News. One of the worst. One of the worst in the business. But I'll answer your question. As far as this gentleman is concerned, he's done a phenomenal job. You're mentioning somebody that was extremely controversial. A lot of people didn't like that gentleman that you're talking about. Whether you like him or didn't like him, things happen. But he knew nothing about it. And we can leave it at that. You don't have to embarrass our guests by asking a question like just you.

[Mohammed bin Salman]

Ask, Mr. President, you allow me to answer. You know, I feel painful about, you know, families of 9011 in America, but, you know, we have to focus on reality. Reality based on CIA documents and based on a lot of documents that Osama bin Laden, he used Saudi people in that event for one main purpose is to destroy this relation, to destroy the American Saudi relation. That's the purpose of 911. So whoever buying that, that means they are helping Osama bin Laden purpose of destroying this relation, he knows that strong relation between America and Saudi Arabia. It's bad for extremism, it's bad for terrorism, and we have to approve him.

[Trita Parsi]

Wrong.

[Mohammed bin Salman]

And to build our relation, continue developing our relations. It's critical in the safety of the world. It's critical against extremism and terrorism. About the generalists, it's really painful to hear, you know, anyone that been losing his life for, you know, no real purpose or not in a legal way. And it's been painful for us in Saudi Arabia. We've did all the right steps of investigation, etc. In Saudi Arabia and we've improved our system to be sure that nothing happened like that. And it's painful and it's a huge mistake and we are doing our best that this doesn't happen again.

[Host]

Offering a state visit to the Saudi autocrat may not have been necessary, but the reality is if the US Wants to maintain working relations with that country and it does have to deal with its ruler. So what happened this week in Washington? At CNN.com, abbas Al Lawati and Becky Anderson write. Saudi Arabia's crown prince got almost everything he wanted from Donald Trump. Perhaps his biggest win was persuading Trump to drop the one condition Washington had long insisted on before sealing major defense and trade deals with Riyadh, full normalization with Israel. But with that condition dropped, they say the US has now designated Saudi Arabia a major non NATO ally and is moving forward with plans to sell at F35 jets and signed a new strategic defense agreement whose details are unclear. The two countries also launched an AI cooperation framework which includes clearing the sale of advanced chips to the kingdom, signed a critical minerals agreement and opened the door to expand cooperation on nuclear energy. But there was no formal defense commitment. And our guest in this episode says such a commitment would be a major mistake. Trita Parsi is the executive vice president of the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft. He is an expert on U. S. Iranian relations, Iranian foreign policy and the geopolitics of the Middle East. Trita Parsi, it is great to have you back. Welcome.

[Trita Parsi]

My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me again.

[Host]

So before we get to the visit between President Trump and Mohammed bin Salman, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, let's just go back in time just a little bit. When Donald Trump returned to the White House In January after four years of the Biden administration, what state were U.S. saudi relations in?

[Trita Parsi]

So Saudi U.S. relations were still in a rather tense state. The Biden administration came into office and spoke very aggressively and in my view, quite justifiably against Saudi Arabia in February. In 2021, Biden said that this war must end. In talking about the war that Saudi Arabia had started against The Houthis, and then it's just bombing Yemen. To Smithers, the US was originally in on it, but there was a lot of political pressure to end that war.

[Joe Biden]

We're also stepping up our diplomacy to end the war in Yemen, a war which has created humanitarian and strategic catastrophe. I've asked my Middle east team to ensure our support for the United nations led initiative to impose a ceasefire, open humanitarian challenge and restore long dormant peace talks. This war has to end.

[Trita Parsi]

And during the campaign, Biden had also called Saudi Arabia a pariah state and said that we should treat it as the pariah that it is. And to be frank with you, back then, that was actually a very accurate statement.

[Joe Biden]

Khashoggi was in fact, murdered and dismembered. And I believe in the order of the Crown Prince. And I would make it very clear we were not going to, in fact, sell more weapons to them. We were going to, in fact, make them pay the price and make them, in fact, the pariah that they are. There's very little social redeeming value in the present government.

[Trita Parsi]

In Saudi Arabia, MBS had killed Jamal Khashoggi. He had kidnapped the Prime Minister of Lebanon. He had started that campaign, that blockade against Qatar probably was thinking of invading the country, but was stopped because the Turks sent troops to Qatar and of course, Yemen. So this was a Crown Prince that came in with a tremendously reckless foreign policy. But it didn't take long for the Biden administration to just completely shift. Even though they didn't want to do a public embrace of mbs, they kind of still wanted to treat him at an arms distance. Jake Sullivan was going to Saudi Arabia, but refused to have a photo op with mbs, which insulted mbs. And MBS, as a result, decided to be, I think, an hour or two hours late for the meeting. And then he showed up in T shirt and shorts saying, well, if you're not going to take pictures, then I'm not going to treat this as if this is really a professional visit.

[Host]

So there was a client here, right?

[Trita Parsi]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So there was a lot of, like, personal animosity. But on substance, it's important to understand the Biden administration was considering offering the Saudis and may have actually offered the Saudis a full defense pact, meaning a NATO level Article 5 defense pact with the Saudis as part of a larger deal with Israel and normalization. They had offered nuclear collaboration to the point that it not only would violate the 1, 2, 3 agreement that the US has pursued, which is like the gold standard, but also Concerns on the American side that the Saudis would gain access to nuclear technology that would enable them to build nuclear weapons down the road and as a result was considering having US Troops guardians the nuclear facilities in Saudi Arabia against Saudis. Now, if you're considering doing that, perhaps that is a bit of a red flag that your idea of offering this type of nuclear collaboration is a pretty bad one in the first place. They also had considerations for having self destruction capabilities in those facilities so that the US could remotely blow up the entire nuclear facility. So the Biden administration was actually offering all of the goodies to Saudi Arabia. Because if there was one thing that was guiding Biden's foreign policy in the Middle east was to get the Saudis into the Abraham Accord and normalize with Israel. Part of the reason why at the end of the day, this really didn't happen is because of October 7th and because the Israelis kind of lost interest and were much more inclined to go down the path of genocide than the path of normalization with Saudi Arabia. So even though you didn't have the red carpet, even though you didn't have Biden tell an American journalist, how dare you ask that question and insult our guests when you're asking them about Jamal Khashoggi or even suggest that Khashoggi was a disliked figure or a controversial figure. Yeah, he didn't do any of those things. But on substance, the Biden administration appeared to have been ready to offer more in terms of defense obligations to the Saudis than what the Trump administration appears to be doing. We don't know quite yet exactly what the deal.

[Host]

Yes, they did say in that Oval Office meeting, actually President Trump said it, that they agreed to some kind of defense agreement, but no details were forthcoming.

[President Donald Trump]

And the defense agreement, have you reached agreement on that? We pretty much have.

[Mohammed bin Salman]

Prince, if I could just finish.

[President Donald Trump]

We have reached agreement on that. Okay.

[Host]

But as you said, when Joe Biden was a candidate in 2020, it was easier to say Saudi Arabia pariah state. We're going to cut off weapons to Saudi Arabia so it can't keep brutalizing Yemen. He did the fist bump. He didn't shake his hand when he finally got into office. Biden referring to Biden here, he did the famous fist bump when he met Mohammed bin Salman. Because the reality is, Trita, and obviously as a realist, you know this, everyone knows this, the United States has to deal with some unsavory characters in the world. It was still shocking though, because going back to his most recent visit to Washington, Mohammed bin Salman In 2018, a New York Times op ed says his brief tenure, and this again in 2018, was known in the US principally for his authoritarianism and foreign adventurism. You mentioned some of those as well. The resignation of Lebanon's prime minister is actually kidnapped, as you said, the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. But once you're in office. Right. It's a very difficult balancing act.

[Trita Parsi]

Of course, at the end of the day, it is. And I think here the Trump administration approaches this in a manner in which these kind of dimensions don't even exist. I mean, the Trump administration does not pretend to be a beacon of human rights. And I think a lot of folks rightfully are upset about a lot of the things that is clear violations of human rights. They're upset that there isn't a desire to uphold human rights. And I sympathize with that. But I'm a little bit jaded right now because they would be happy with the Biden administration pretending to uphold human rights while facilitating a genocide. So in some ways, I much rather have an administration that is not facilitating genocide in this case. I'm not really saying that Trump isn't, because Trump has also allowed the Israelis to do even more than what Biden did. But getting rid of this pretense that so often is just false may be helpful. Not in order to stay at that level, not in order for us to forever not care about that issue, but as a first necessary step towards rebuilding a more credible approach towards human rights that is not suffering from this blatant double standard and hollowness as it has been for quite some time, but particularly in the last couple of years in which the Biden administration said that human rights is at the center of their foreign policy, and then they're helping, you know, make sure that a genocide can just go on and on and on.

[Host]

Yeah, but because what you're saying here raises the most important question, is that what does the US need from Saudi Arabia and why? And vice versa, what does Saudi Arabia need from the US you're referring to the genocide. I agree. The Biden and Trump administrations, in violation of US Law and international law, continued to supply Israel with all the weapons it wanted to pulverize Gaza into dust. So the Saudis and the U.S. we had the visitors. Let's start with the U.S. perspective. Why does the United States continue to need Saudi Arabia? If you go to Freedom House's website, Freedom House says Saudi Arabia is basically at the bottom of the rankings for political freedom and civil liberties. They essentially do not exist in Saudi Arabia, even when taking into consideration some of the more recent reforms to say, give women a degree of autonomy in that country. So when you set all of that aside, there's this idea that there's a new Middle east, right, and Saudi Arabia is a integral part of that. When it comes to say, Abraham accords, the Palestinians dealing with Iran, we'll start with the US and the Trump administration's perspective. Why do they need the Saudis?

[Trita Parsi]

So let's first clarify a couple of things. Sure, Saudi Arabia is an important country. It is the home of the holiest sites of the religion of Islam. It is an extremely wealthy country with its oil reserves, not much gas reserves, but nevertheless is the biggest player in opec. So undoubtedly a big player. None of that, however, in and of itself justifies the United States offering a defense pact for Saudi Arabia. The fact that Saudi's foreign policy has become much more moderate and stability centric than it was five years ago is also great. That's fantastic. Glad we should encourage it further. Also does not justify a defense pact. The defense pact is justified when it offers the United States, on balance, pretty much the same thing that it offers the other country. Has to be a two way street. There is nothing in terms of defense that the Saudis offers the U.S. we don't need to have bases there for our interests in the region. Frankly, we don't need to have any bases in the Middle east at all. So I think we have to separate the idea of, hey, is Saudi Arabia an important country? Does it play an important role? Yes, it does. None of that, however, justifies a defense pact. And a lot of people in Washington are conflating the two because Saudi Arabia is an important country because it's emerging as a very influential middle power, that that in and of itself automatically means that we have to have offering them some sort of a security umbrella. And it just goes back to the thinking within the primacists, which is that we just have to constantly grow this network of alliance, this alliance system, as if that is fundamentally the most important thing for global stability and US Security. It is. That alliance system has got us offering security guarantees and weapons to all three sides in various conflicts. And that in of itself tells us that, you know, perhaps we have overextended ourselves a little bit. Sure. When we look more specifically of why Saudi still is important despite the fact we don't need their oil, we don't buy their oil, China buys their oil. Why are we subsidizing China's oil imports? Well, Saudi Arabia still has a tremendous amount of financial weight. A country that can play a critical role in the investment of AI. And there is an AI race, of course, there is a fear that if the Saudis go too close to the Chinese, that that will be a negative for the United States in some aspects. I'm sure it will, but we can't play it the way we played it before, which is to say you're going to be on our team and you can't do anything with the Chinese because the Saudis are too smart and too powerful to play that game at this point. They are really taking advantage of their middle power status in which they're playing various sides against each other for their own interest. Turkey is another country that's quite successfully has been able to do that. The fastest route for us to push them away from us is to tell them it's only us, no one else that will cause them to reject us, I think.

[Host]

Yeah. So it's not entirely clear to me why the Trump administration wanted this meeting and what they hope to get out of it.

[Trita Parsi]

Getting a lot of investments into the United States is something that Trump himself seems to be quite forgiven. Focus.

[Host]

Yeah, they threw a lot around. A number like a trillion dollars. But these numbers are fictitious.

[Trita Parsi]

Will they ever make that Investment? Will the US ever deliver the F35s? The U.S promised F35s to the UAE as part of the Abraham Accord and still has not delivered them. It will take eight to 10 years to deliver them to Saudi Arabia. A lot can happen in those years. So there's a lot of this that seems to just be a lot of fluff. We don't know for certain exactly. The one area that seems to be a little bit more concrete and could be very, very dangerous is if the United States offers the Saudi to listen.

[Host]

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