Bonus Ep! Pete Hegseth and Wounded Knee

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: History As It Happens
Host: Martin Di Caro
Episode: Bonus Ep! Pete Hegseth and Wounded Knee
Date: October 8, 2025

In this bonus episode, Martin Di Caro delves into the recent decision by current Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth to uphold Medals of Honor awarded to U.S. soldiers after the 1890 Wounded Knee Massacre. Drawing parallels between present-day political narratives and historical truth, Di Caro invites Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Alan Taylor to explore both the facts of Wounded Knee and its manipulation in contemporary political discourse.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Controversy Over the Wounded Knee Medals (00:00-02:44)

• Di Caro introduces the subject: the panel investigation initiated under former Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin regarding whether Medals of Honor given to 7th Cavalry soldiers at Wounded Knee should be rescinded. The panel concluded medals should stay but the report was never made public.
• Secretary Pete Hegseth, formerly of Fox News, made the final decision to preserve the medals and used highly charged rhetoric to justify the move and rewrite the narrative of Wounded Knee:
  • Notable Quote:

    "We salute their memory. We honor their service, and we will never forget what they did."
    — Pete Hegseth (02:36)

• Di Caro points out Hegseth's history of defending soldiers accused of war crimes and his tendency to recast American soldiers, even in controversial situations, as unassailable heroes.

2. The Trump-Era Historical Narrative (02:44-03:25)

• Di Caro critiques the administration’s approach as a broad movement to distort American history, substituting myth-making for critical reckoning:
  • Notable Quote:

    "This is, of course, deranged, but it's part of a movement the Trump administration is leading to rewrite, to distort American history, treating all of us like children who have to be spoon fed stories of heroes who are actually butchers at Wounded Knee."
    — Martin Di Caro (02:44)

• The narrative glosses over atrocities committed against the Lakota, reinforcing a sanitized vision of American heroism.

3. Historical Context of the Wounded Knee Massacre (03:26-04:41)

• Guest Alan Taylor provides background:
  • The massacre took place at the end of decades-long U.S. military campaigns to suppress Native resistance.
  • By 1890, most Native groups had been forced onto reservations; the Lakota of the Dakotas were among the last resisting groups.
  • The 7th Cavalry, infamously linked with Custer’s Last Stand, played a central role.

4. The Ghost Dance Movement & Its Meaning (05:12-08:54)

• Taylor describes the Ghost Dance, its origins with Wovoka—a Paiute holy man in Nevada—its peaceful, spiritual intent, and how it spread to the Lakota.
  • The Ghost Dance promised a restoration of life before colonization (return of the buffalo, disappearance of white people) through ritual, not violence.
  • Lakota added the idea of “Ghost Shirts,” believed to offer spiritual protection from soldiers’ bullets.
• The movement was seen as threatening by U.S. authorities and local settlers due to profound misunderstandings:
  • “There was an enormous prejudice against Native peoples, a profound misunderstanding of them, and an insistence that they were innately violent savages.” (07:53, Taylor)
  • U.S. government policy aimed to forcibly assimilate Native Americans, destroy their cultural practices, and erase their languages.
  • Resistance to assimilation—even symbolic or spiritual—was viewed as a political threat.

5. Leaders and Tensions on the Eve of Wounded Knee (08:54-10:52)

• Taylor and Di Caro discuss the key Lakota leaders:
  • Sitting Bull: Celebrated Lakota leader and spiritual figure, pivotal at the Battle of Little Bighorn (“Custer’s Last Stand”) and later shot by Indian police for promoting the Ghost Dance.
  • Spotted Elk (Bigfoot): Miniconju Lakota chief who, after Sitting Bull’s murder, led his people to surrender fearing further violence.
  • Native “Indian police” were often co-opted to enforce federal policies on reservations, including the arrest or murder of resistant leaders.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On war and memory manipulation:

  "We salute their memory. We honor their service, and we will never forget what they did."
  — Pete Hegseth (02:36)

• On rewriting history:

  "This is, of course, deranged, but it's part of a movement … treating all of us like children who have to be spoon fed stories of heroes who are actually butchers at Wounded Knee."
  — Martin Di Caro (02:44)

• On Native realities post-Civil War:

  "After the Civil War, the federal government felt that it's time to bring all of this to a close. … Native peoples had been confined to reservations and dispossessed of most of their land."
  — Alan Taylor (04:02)

• On the Ghost Dance:

  "If enough people, enough Native people did this, that they would transform the world back to the way it used to be … and that white people would vanish. … He also is very clear that this was to be done through this ceremony, and there was to be no violence."
  — Alan Taylor (05:36, summary)

• On white fears and federal assimilation:

  "In general, there was an enormous prejudice against Native peoples, a profound misunderstanding of them, and insistence that they were innately violent savages. So anytime they start doing something collectively in a new way, that is interpreted as a military threat."
  — Alan Taylor (07:53)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:00-00:44 — Di Caro introduces the Wounded Knee medals controversy
• 00:44-01:56 — Pete Hegseth’s statement defending the medals and the soldiers’ legacy
• 01:56-02:44 — Background: Hegseth’s record defending accused war criminals; application of a similar attitude to Wounded Knee soldiers
• 02:44-03:25 — Di Caro’s critique of history distortion by current administration
• 03:26-04:41 — Alan Taylor explains the broader context of U.S.–Native relations in 1890
• 05:12-08:54 — The Ghost Dance’s roots, meaning, and white Americans’ reactions
• 08:54-10:52 — Discussion of Native leadership (Sitting Bull, Spotted Elk) and circumstances leading directly to the massacre

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Episode Takeaways

• The defense of Wounded Knee Medals reveals how contemporary politics can manipulate and sanitize violent chapters of American history.
• The Ghost Dance was a peaceful religious movement deeply misunderstood and feared by the U.S. government, reflecting both cultural miscommunication and the federal commitment to forced assimilation.
• The massacre at Wounded Knee and its commemoration remain deeply contested, raising questions about historical justice, memory, and how America reckons with the crimes of its past.

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Transcript

[A]

This is a bonus episode of history as it happens. It's October 8, 2025. On December 29, 1890, at least 150, possibly 250 Lakota men, women, and children were massacred by US troops near Wounded Knee Creek on an Indian reservation in South Dakota. 28 federal troops were killed, too, mostly by friendly fire. 19Americans in the 7th Cavalry, the unit that committed the massacre, received the Medal of Honor. Last year, then Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin ordered a review by a panel of experts. They issued a report, and that report has not been made public. The current Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, says it concluded the 19 recipients of the Medal of Honor should keep their medals.

[B]

Under the previous administration, a review panel was convened to determine whether soldiers awarded the Medal of Honor for their actions at the Battle of Wounded Knee should keep their medals. Now, upon deliberation, that panel concluded that these brave soldiers should, in fact, rightfully keep their medals from actions in 1890. The report was concluded in October of 2024. Yet, despite this clear recommendation, former Secretary Lloyd Austin, for whatever reason, I think we know he was more interested in being politically correct than historically correct, chose not to make a final decision. Such careless inaction has allowed for their distinguished recognition to remain in limbo until now. Under my direction, we're making it clear without hesitation that the soldiers who fought in the Battle of wounded knee in 1890 will keep their medals. And we're making it clear that they deserve those medals. This decision is now final, and their place in our nation's history is no longer up for debate. We salute their memory. We honor their service, and we will never forget what they did.

[A]

Now, as we all know, Hegseth used to be a host on Fox News, where he vocally defended some American soldiers accused of war crimes, publicly lobbying for them to be pardoned, as when he took up the case of Matthew Goldstein, who faced murder charges for killing an Afghan civilian whom he believed was a Taliban bomb maker, a man who went.

[B]

From military hero to enemy of the state. Major Matthew Goldstein, a former decorated Green Beret, facing murder charges from his own government.

[A]

As Hegseth put it on his TV program, war heroes are being prosecuted like criminals. Well, he apparently applies this idea to the past. As you heard in that audio clip, he referred to the soldiers who massacred Lakota as brave men, and their place.

[B]

In our nation's history is no longer up for debate. We salute their memory. We honor their service, and we will never forget what they did.

[A]

This is, of course, deranged, but it's Part of a movement the Trump administration is leading to rewrite, to distort American history, treating all of us like children who have to be spoon fed stories of heroes who are actually butchers at Wounded Knee. So what actually happened there 135 years ago? Historian Alan Taylor is a two time winner of the Pulitzer Prize, professor emeritus at the University of Virginia where he was the Thomas Jefferson Foundation Chairman. He's the author of many books, most recently American Civil War is a Continental History, 1850-1873, which covers the wars between the US and native peoples. Alan Taylor, welcome back to the podcast.

[C]

Thank you, Martin. It's always great to be on with you.

[A]

It's been a bit.

[C]

Yes, it has.

[A]

I miss you.

[C]

Well, I assume so.

[A]

You know, you never know when the 19th century is going to come roaring back into the headlines. I actually wasn't expecting this story because I did not know that this review of the medals was underway. Let's begin with a little bit of context. 1890, that is 25 years, a quarter century after the end of the Civil War. But it was not a peaceful time in America. This is the end, 1890, the end of decades long US military campaigns against Native Americans, right?

[C]

That's correct. So after the Civil War, the federal government felt that it's time to bring all of this to a close. And at that point, Native peoples had been confined to reservations and dispossessed of most of their land in the eastern half of the country and along the Pacific Rim. But in the great interior, there were still Native peoples, including the Lakota of what are now the Dakotas, who were still resisting American expansion. And so the American military is given the assignment that you've got to round them up and put them on reservations and disarm them.

[A]

And these were wars between the U.S.

[C]

You know, there are hundreds of people killed on both sides, but primarily Native peoples. They are the people who lose most of the lives.

[A]

They had been weakened by a number of factors already. Population loss.

[C]

Oh, they're enormously outnumbered. Their primary way in which they can continue to resist is that they have superior mobility because they are superb riders of horses. And they are out there in these vast stretches of land that have not been occupied by the United States yet.

[A]

So in 1890, there's this movement among Native peoples called the Ghost Dance Movement. Where did this come from? And why did the US Government, miners, ranchers, why they find it threatening?

[C]

Well, I'll start out with just explaining what the Ghost Dance was among the Paiute people who live in what is now Nevada. There was a holy man named Wovoka. And Wovoka had a set of visions in which he said that if you perform a particular ceremony that came to be called the Ghost Dance, which is a night long, shuffling dance with chanting. If enough people, enough Native people did this, that they would transform the world back to the way it used to be, so that there would be an abundance of game, including the buffalo, which had been by 1890, largely exterminated by professional hunters, encouraged by the U.S. army, that the buffalo would come back, natural abundance would be restored, and that white people would vanish. So the world would be the way Native peoples wish the world could be. He also is very clear that this was to be done through this ceremony, and there was to be no violence. And it is not an entirely a primitive point of view, because he is also drawing upon Christian ideas in his message. And a variety of Native peoples are intrigued by this, and they include Lakotas. So two Lakotas visit Wovoka, fall of 1890, to learn his message and to learn how to do the Ghost Dance. And then they bring it back. So that's essentially what the Ghost Dance is. Now, there is one riff on this done by the Lakota, which is because of their brutal recent experience of being forced on the reservations. They expected that if they did the Ghost Dance, that they would attract violence from U.S. troops. So they added on the concept of the Ghost Shirt. Shirt with magical symbols on it, which they assumed would protect them from bullets. Now, why is it that white Americans in the west are so upset about all of this? Well, in general, there was an enormous prejudice against Native peoples, A profound misunderstanding of them, and insistence that they were innately violent savages. So anytime they start doing something collectively in a new way, that is interpreted as a military threat to the settlers around them. The second reason is that the United States government had committed to a program of forcibly assimilating Native peoples, of destroying their cultures, of banning their spiritual ceremonies altogether, obliging children to go to schools where they could not speak their own language, could not learn their own traditions, but instead would be indoctrinated in the American way of life. So the notion behind this program is that Native peoples are to be converted into equivalents of white Americans and absorbed into society at the bottom levels of society, and they will cease to have any sort of tribal organization. They will lose their languages and lose their entire culture. And that was regarded as the more humane solution because the alternative was seen as genocide. So when Native peoples instead say, thank you very much, we don't want to go to your schools. We don't want to learn your mode of agriculture. We don't want to practice private proper in your way. We don't want to speak your language. Leave us alone. We're going to dance you all away. That's regarded as okay. This is a great obstacle to our program of forcible assimilation. And so federal officials are perceiving the movement in that way, which is this is leading Native peoples astray, blocking the program that the federal government had committed to. To force them to stop being Native.

[A]

Peoples, to force them to stay on reservations. And in this case, we're dealing with the Lakota Indians. The chief of the Miniconju Lakota was Spotted Elk. I've also seen him referred to as Bigfoot as.

[C]

Well, Spotted Elk is probably the more polite term for him. Yes.

[A]

So Sitting Bull is murdered around this time, 1889, 1890. And spotted elk decides, enough is enough. We're going to surrender to US Forces because they had left a reservation. To your previous answer. If Native peoples left a reservation, the army would go get them, right? Go track them down and force them back. So Spotted Elk decides after Sitting Bull's murder, it's time to take his people back to the reservation and surrender to U.S. forces, right?

[C]

Well, I wouldn't put it quite that way. And first, you should explain who Sitting Bull was. Many Americans may not know who Sitting Bull was and why his murder is significant. He was a spiritual leader among the Lakota, and he had been present at one of the last great victories of the lakota over the U.S. army. We ordinarily call Custer's Last Stand in 1876, in which they wiped out a major part of an American military unit known as the 7th Cavalry. And that's going to be a significant fact. So Sitting Bull has a very high profile at that point among the Lakota, but also among Americans who know who Sitting Bull is. He later was a performer in Buffalo Bill's Wild west show. So many Americans knew Sitting Bull as a performer there, but he had left Buffalo Bills Wild west and had gone back to the reservation and was a spiritual leader there. And he becomes an adept at the ghost dance, a great promoter of it. And because of this, reservation authorities who were federal agents sent the Indian police, and these are our native peoples, are used as enforcers on the reservation.

[A]

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