Episode Overview

Podcast: History As It Happens
Host: Martin Di Caro
Episode: Bonus Ep! Pete Hegseth and Wounded Knee
Date: October 8, 2025

In this bonus episode, Martin Di Caro delves into the recent decision by current Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth to uphold Medals of Honor awarded to U.S. soldiers after the 1890 Wounded Knee Massacre. Drawing parallels between present-day political narratives and historical truth, Di Caro invites Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Alan Taylor to explore both the facts of Wounded Knee and its manipulation in contemporary political discourse.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Controversy Over the Wounded Knee Medals (00:00-02:44)

• Di Caro introduces the subject: the panel investigation initiated under former Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin regarding whether Medals of Honor given to 7th Cavalry soldiers at Wounded Knee should be rescinded. The panel concluded medals should stay but the report was never made public.
• Secretary Pete Hegseth, formerly of Fox News, made the final decision to preserve the medals and used highly charged rhetoric to justify the move and rewrite the narrative of Wounded Knee:
  • Notable Quote:

    "We salute their memory. We honor their service, and we will never forget what they did."
    — Pete Hegseth (02:36)

• Di Caro points out Hegseth's history of defending soldiers accused of war crimes and his tendency to recast American soldiers, even in controversial situations, as unassailable heroes.

2. The Trump-Era Historical Narrative (02:44-03:25)

• Di Caro critiques the administration’s approach as a broad movement to distort American history, substituting myth-making for critical reckoning:
  • Notable Quote:

    "This is, of course, deranged, but it's part of a movement the Trump administration is leading to rewrite, to distort American history, treating all of us like children who have to be spoon fed stories of heroes who are actually butchers at Wounded Knee."
    — Martin Di Caro (02:44)

• The narrative glosses over atrocities committed against the Lakota, reinforcing a sanitized vision of American heroism.

3. Historical Context of the Wounded Knee Massacre (03:26-04:41)

• Guest Alan Taylor provides background:
  • The massacre took place at the end of decades-long U.S. military campaigns to suppress Native resistance.
  • By 1890, most Native groups had been forced onto reservations; the Lakota of the Dakotas were among the last resisting groups.
  • The 7th Cavalry, infamously linked with Custer’s Last Stand, played a central role.

4. The Ghost Dance Movement & Its Meaning (05:12-08:54)

• Taylor describes the Ghost Dance, its origins with Wovoka—a Paiute holy man in Nevada—its peaceful, spiritual intent, and how it spread to the Lakota.
  • The Ghost Dance promised a restoration of life before colonization (return of the buffalo, disappearance of white people) through ritual, not violence.
  • Lakota added the idea of “Ghost Shirts,” believed to offer spiritual protection from soldiers’ bullets.
• The movement was seen as threatening by U.S. authorities and local settlers due to profound misunderstandings:
  • “There was an enormous prejudice against Native peoples, a profound misunderstanding of them, and an insistence that they were innately violent savages.” (07:53, Taylor)
  • U.S. government policy aimed to forcibly assimilate Native Americans, destroy their cultural practices, and erase their languages.
  • Resistance to assimilation—even symbolic or spiritual—was viewed as a political threat.

5. Leaders and Tensions on the Eve of Wounded Knee (08:54-10:52)

• Taylor and Di Caro discuss the key Lakota leaders:
  • Sitting Bull: Celebrated Lakota leader and spiritual figure, pivotal at the Battle of Little Bighorn (“Custer’s Last Stand”) and later shot by Indian police for promoting the Ghost Dance.
  • Spotted Elk (Bigfoot): Miniconju Lakota chief who, after Sitting Bull’s murder, led his people to surrender fearing further violence.
  • Native “Indian police” were often co-opted to enforce federal policies on reservations, including the arrest or murder of resistant leaders.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On war and memory manipulation:

  "We salute their memory. We honor their service, and we will never forget what they did."
  — Pete Hegseth (02:36)

• On rewriting history:

  "This is, of course, deranged, but it's part of a movement … treating all of us like children who have to be spoon fed stories of heroes who are actually butchers at Wounded Knee."
  — Martin Di Caro (02:44)

• On Native realities post-Civil War:

  "After the Civil War, the federal government felt that it's time to bring all of this to a close. … Native peoples had been confined to reservations and dispossessed of most of their land."
  — Alan Taylor (04:02)

• On the Ghost Dance:

  "If enough people, enough Native people did this, that they would transform the world back to the way it used to be … and that white people would vanish. … He also is very clear that this was to be done through this ceremony, and there was to be no violence."
  — Alan Taylor (05:36, summary)

• On white fears and federal assimilation:

  "In general, there was an enormous prejudice against Native peoples, a profound misunderstanding of them, and insistence that they were innately violent savages. So anytime they start doing something collectively in a new way, that is interpreted as a military threat."
  — Alan Taylor (07:53)

Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:00-00:44 — Di Caro introduces the Wounded Knee medals controversy
• 00:44-01:56 — Pete Hegseth’s statement defending the medals and the soldiers’ legacy
• 01:56-02:44 — Background: Hegseth’s record defending accused war criminals; application of a similar attitude to Wounded Knee soldiers
• 02:44-03:25 — Di Caro’s critique of history distortion by current administration
• 03:26-04:41 — Alan Taylor explains the broader context of U.S.–Native relations in 1890
• 05:12-08:54 — The Ghost Dance’s roots, meaning, and white Americans’ reactions
• 08:54-10:52 — Discussion of Native leadership (Sitting Bull, Spotted Elk) and circumstances leading directly to the massacre

Episode Takeaways

• The defense of Wounded Knee Medals reveals how contemporary politics can manipulate and sanitize violent chapters of American history.
• The Ghost Dance was a peaceful religious movement deeply misunderstood and feared by the U.S. government, reflecting both cultural miscommunication and the federal commitment to forced assimilation.
• The massacre at Wounded Knee and its commemoration remain deeply contested, raising questions about historical justice, memory, and how America reckons with the crimes of its past.