Historian Benjamin Louis Roski (1:54)

What did you.

Rob Reiner (1:55)

A meathead, dead from the neck up meat.

Norman Lear (1:58)

Well, he was, you know, he was a wide eyed liberal, the kind of long haired and product of his times really. Archie would call him a bleeding heart liberal. But he was also, oddly enough, was a bit of a chauvinist. Even though he was liberal minded in.

Host (2:22)

His.

Norman Lear (2:25)

Stance against the war and for civil rights and so on. When it comes to the women's movement, I think he was probably like all men, even the most liberal of men, except for Alan Alda to, you know, to kind of push back a little bit against feminism.

Host (2:42)

After all, in the Family, Reiner went on to direct some great Hollywood films while becoming a liberal political activist in California. His life and legacy in pop culture and in politics is significant. Here to talk about it is historian Benjamin Louis Roski, the the author of the Rise and fall of the Religious politics, television and pop culture in the 1970s and beyond. It covers Norman Lear, all in the Family, and the culture wars of past decades. Louis Benjamin Rosky, welcome back to the show.

Historian Benjamin Louis Roski (3:15)

Thank you very much for having me. It's wonderful to be back.

Host (3:18)

You're the first person I thought of because of your book about Norman Lear and the legacy of all in the Family. I know that the. The Reiners, Rob Reiner, his work, Norman Lear's work has meant a lot to you, personally and professionally.

Historian Benjamin Louis Roski (3:31)

Just dumbfounded, flabbergasted, horrified, deeply confused and disturbed. The neighborhood, I think, is similar to one that I sort of lived in for a little bit, or at least spent some time in interviewing Norman Lear, you know, for my own work. So I'm somewhat familiar with the area. Norman and Rob knew each other very, very well. The fact that Rob and his son did a movie together, trying to explore kind of feelings of dysregulation, being the son of, you know, fame, I guess, like everyone else. I'm still waiting to find out more. I suppose it's ongoing for sure.

Norman Lear (4:14)

Yeah.

Host (4:15)

I don't know how many people were aware of the family issues there. Rob Reiner came from a showbiz family. His mom, Estelle, was a singer. His father, Carl Reiner, for those who may not know the name. Carl Reiner.

Historian Benjamin Louis Roski (4:30)

Yeah. So in many ways, Rob's trajectory, his comedic and intellectual trajectory mirrors his dad. Acting, writing. And I was thinking this morning, what's different between someone like Carl and Rob and Norman Leard is that Rob didn't serve in World War II. Carl and Norman, both obviously older than him, serving in that war. So Carl's obviously sharing that with someone like Norman Lear. Carl gets involved with the Steve Allen Show. So incredibly sophisticated writing. I know him best from the Dick Van Dyke Show. I love Dick Van Dyke. Carl Reiner came up with that. That's Mary Tyler Moore's break into the industry.

Michelle Reiner (5:11)

Honey, you've been on watch television.

News Reporter (5:13)

Yeah, for a little while.

Michelle Reiner (5:14)

Oh, that's too bad.

News Reporter (5:16)

Why? Bob's gonna f. What's the matter with it?

Michelle Reiner (5:20)

Well, the vertical hold won't hold and.

Rob Reiner (5:23)

The linearity's going all like that.

News Reporter (5:27)

Linearity isn't going all like that at all.

Michelle Reiner (5:30)

Well, honey, it goes in and out it comes and it goes. Rich, you all missed the cartoons on the credits. I'll just adjust it here.

News Reporter (5:37)

Oh, Rob, it was working well enough for me. Why don't you just leave it for now, darling?

Michelle Reiner (5:41)

Well, honey, it's liable to do all those crazy Things just at the climax.

News Reporter (5:46)

Comes dear, I'm only going to watch.

Historian Benjamin Louis Roski (5:47)

For a little while.

News Reporter (5:48)

I think I'll get in bed and read. I'm kind of tired.

Michelle Reiner (5:50)

Oh, honey, look, if you're tired, why don't you go to bed now? I'll massage your shoulders for you.

News Reporter (5:55)

No, I'm just going to watch for.

Historian Benjamin Louis Roski (5:56)

An hour or so. Sexual dynamics of the show, or gender dynamics in the show in the sense that there's a famous scene where like Mary flips Dick Van Djk over in this sort of incredible move. It's all black and white, remember? So then he, you know, emerges as a director. He directs the Jerk, you know, with Steve Martin. And then people might know him from the Ocean's movies.

Host (6:16)

Carl Reiner was a legend. Yeah, early television legend, Comedic legend.

Historian Benjamin Louis Roski (6:22)

Very much so. I remember, I guess Carl most recently from a documentary that he did called if you're not in the obit, eat breakfast. And I remember seeing wonderful scenes where Carl and Mel Brooks and Norman Lear, they're all having like breakfast together and talking about comedy and life. And I think it's like, you know, we're in our 90s and how are we able to do all of this? And we're still so funny. And Betty White, Mel Brooks, Kirk Douglas, George Shapiro, who's a famous agent. So he's even doing. He was even doing wonderful kind of stuff late, you know, into his life. And I love seeing him interact with Norman and Mel Brooks and just literally having TV dinners on little TV dinner stands from the 50s and just watching classic movies, going back and forth with each other. It's amazing television, as usual, if you're.

Host (7:15)

Not in the obit, eat breakfast. Okay, I've not seen that documentary. So as mentioned, he grows up on the set Rob Reiner does of his father's TV show, Dick Van Dyke. Rob Reiner has small roles on television. People can find his filmography@IMD db.com Internet Movie Database. Well into the 1960s, he's already active. He's learning the trade, playing small roles in television shows. I'll give a couple examples of this. I actually didn't know about a lot of these. He was in one episode of Manhunt, one episode of the Batman TV series, one episode of Andy Griffith show, three episodes of Gomer Pile. He was on a few episodes of the Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour, things like that. All right, his big break, Rob Reiner gets the role of Meathead Mike Stivic and all in the Family. How did he get that part?

Historian Benjamin Louis Roski (8:17)

Yeah, so the connection. I think first you mentioned the Smothers Brothers. That was an incredibly satirical show for the time. It was incredibly politically aware and motivated and conscience and very much sort of took up the First Amendment, challenging certain injustices. So Rob is working with Steve Martin on that show. He auditions for all in the Family. That's just like anyone else. But all in the Family is first at abc. It later goes to cbs. So at first, Rob actually doesn't get the role. And so Norman and Rob have had a relationship for a very long time. Rob goes ahead and auditions. It doesn't necessarily work out with abc. It moves over to cbs. Lear kind of takes executive control like he did early on with the pilot. And as it turns out, that's how Rob becomes Mike Stivic or Meathead. And like everything Norman Lear did, everything is so autobiographical. So Norman would be called Meathead, or Norman was called Meathead by his dad. And I'm almost positive that Rob heard that as a child, because Norman's maybe not considerably older than Rob, but older. And so Rob is around Norman a lot. And hearing Dingbat, hearing Meathead, hearing the laziest white boy he's ever seen. You know, all of that, all of the wonderful things that Norman created, which then Rob kind of embodied in Mike Stivic, Meathead, counter to Archie. It's a wonderful story.

Host (9:51)

And I watched the scene the other day when Archie meets Meathead. We'll get into some of their famous encounters in a second. But why was Meathead such a great character? You know, we know what his role was in the show, his literal role. He was Archie Bunker's daughter, Gloria, her fiance, her boyfriend. But what was his use in the show? What was his part for?

Historian Benjamin Louis Roski (10:15)

Yeah, well, like all the characters on the show, each character was kind of a caricature of the time, a representative of the time. So Edith is the housewife who's emerging alongside her daughter. Feminism, women's rights. Gloria's asking her, mom, why on earth are you cooking the same thing for dad for decades? What are we doing? And so Michael, he's not only, you know, Archie's son in law, he doesn't really have a job. He's a university student. He's Polish.

Police Officer (10:47)

Oh, no. I'm saying if this country taxed all commercial church property and canceled the oil depletion allowance, you wouldn't have to pay any taxes at all. As a matter of fact, the government would be sending everybody a dividend.

Rob Reiner (10:58)

You know, you ought to run a president yourself of Poland.

Historian Benjamin Louis Roski (11:03)

So choose any of those Sorts of things. And that's how Meathead becomes so comedic and so funny in the show.

Host (11:11)

Well, in their very first meeting in the show, Rob Reiner, Meathead, shows up looking like a hippie, sits down with Archie in the living room. Archie's going through the newspaper, talking about politics, and they immediately start arguing.

Police Officer (11:23)

Anything interesting in the paper?

Historian Benjamin Louis Roski (11:25)

Yeah.

Rob Reiner (11:26)

200 arrested at Vietnam Day peace demonstration. 200. They should have thrown a whole bunch of them in the can. Look at that picture there. Here they are throwing all kinds of junk and tapers at offices of the law, desecrating on the American flag.

Historian Benjamin Louis Roski (11:41)

The hell are them?

Rob Reiner (11:41)

Peace niche won anyhow?

Police Officer (11:43)

Well, I think they just don't like the idea of America fighting an illegal and immoral war.

Rob Reiner (11:51)

Well, if they don't like it, they can lump it, take it down the road and dump it.

Historian Benjamin Louis Roski (11:59)

Archie's one generation, Mike is the other, bringing over hippies to stay at the house. The sociology major, so literally at the time, the bleeding heart, quote, unquote, kind of liberal who's helping everyone other than himself, which Archie, of course, reminds him of every day.

Host (12:18)

And when you watch the show, Archie, obviously is the ignorant older generation, prejudiced, but he wasn't stupid. He had a certain kind of knowledge and a certain understanding of society. And Meathead wasn't always right either. Right. I mean, Meathead had some holes in his knowledge or some flaws as well.

Historian Benjamin Louis Roski (12:36)

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I think about Gloria Discovers Women Live like that's the actual title of the episode. And the criticism starts with Archie, but eventually it hits home with Rob. It hits home with Meathead. Meathead actually finds, in some weird, ironic way, common ground with Archie about how to relate to your significant other.

News Reporter (12:57)

You see what you're doing to her? You're choking her spirit, her entire personality. Here's a woman who will never, ever realize her full potential. And it's all because of you.

Rob Reiner (13:07)

Daddy, I just want to eat.

News Reporter (13:10)

Tell him, Michael. Tell him what he's doing to her.

Police Officer (13:13)

None of my business.

News Reporter (13:15)

You oppress black. What's not your business? Discrimination against Puerto Ricans and Jews and Poles and every other minority is your business. What about discrimination against women, Gloria?

Police Officer (13:26)

It's not the same thing.

News Reporter (13:28)

How do you say that, Michael? You read the book.

Police Officer (13:31)

Yes, I read the books, but that doesn't mean I buy the whole bag. Yes, I believe women should have equal job opportunities. Yes, I believe they should have equal pay.

News Reporter (13:40)

You better believe in it.

Police Officer (13:42)

But I don't believe in a woman opening up a big mouth around the house. So shut up, will you like how I will.

Historian Benjamin Louis Roski (13:48)

It's a very challenging moment. So even Rob is pushed to the edge with Gloria and Gloria leaves the house and they have this argument. So, yeah, Meathead is just as meathead as anyone on the show, for sure.

Host (14:00)

What are some of your favorite Archie Meathead volcanic arguments?

Historian Benjamin Louis Roski (14:04)

Well, it's funny. Like when I was younger, like I was drawn more to things like mash, like Mary Tyler more taxi, less abrasive sorts of things. So it's funny. I'm drawn to the conversation between Archie and Meathead when they're talking about socks and shoes. I don't know if you've ever seen that, but it's like there's this whole conversation where it's like Meathead puts on a sock and a shoe on one foot at one time versus a sock and a sock and a shoe and a shoe.

Host (14:32)

And Archie is just to listen to this entire episode. Subscribe now. For $5 a month, you'll enjoy ad free listening, all bonus content and 24. 7 access to every episode of History as it happens. More than 500 podcasts tap. Subscribe now in the show Notes or go to history as it happens.supercast.com history as it happens supercast.com.