Episode Overview

Title: Bonus Ep! What is Neoliberalism?
Podcast: History As It Happens
Host: Martin Di Caro
Guests: Daniel Besner (University of Washington; co-host of American Prestige), Phil Magness (Independent Institute)

This bonus episode tackles a perpetually debated and often-misunderstood concept in contemporary political economy: neoliberalism. The host brings together two historians with differing views to explore the origins, utility, and meaning of the term, and to connect its evolution with current economic and political trends—especially the rise of economic nationalism, populism, and the recurring backlash against globalization.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Neoliberalism

• Contested Definitions:

  • Phil Magness (03:11): "Neoliberal. I think that's exactly it. It's a pejorative term that has a long history and some weird iterations of how it's used. But neoliberalism has never been something that people have widely adopted as a self descriptor of their views or their beliefs... it basically means anything and everything that the user of the term wants it to mean... it's also essentially meaningless."
  • Daniel Besner (04:36): "Though I do agree that neoliberalism, much like liberalism itself, is a term that is very protean, it has changed over time...I do find it useful from a historical perspective to basically reference a different type of policy, discursive, and to some degree political-economic regime that came after what historians generally refer to as mid-century Fordism..."

• Historical Roots:
  Magness traces the term to the 1920s as a Marxist critique, noting its mutations and lack of self-adoption. Besner agrees it’s protean but useful for describing a specific transformation after the Fordist-Keynesian mid-century economic order.

Memorable Exchange

• Magness (04:35): "When you have such a broad and fluid definition that is also essentially deployed in a pejorative way, it simultaneously encompasses everything the user dislikes, but it's also essentially meaningless."
• Besner (06:30): "...I do think neoliberalism does refer to something real in history."

2. Historical Development: Continuity or Break? (06:30–11:01)

• Is neoliberalism a rupture or a continuity in economic debates?
  • Magness: Sees the shift as a continuation of longstanding debates within liberalism, especially the divide between state-regulated Keynesianism and free-market advocates, simply made manifest after the collapse of the Keynesian order in the 1970s.
  • Besner: Suggests it’s “a debate within capital-L, 19th-century liberalism” but acknowledges the American context in which conglomeration and financialization became defining features.

Notable Quote

• Besner (09:06): "Every American is a liberal in the 19th century sense, and these are essentially different species of it...I do think they change over time...But broadly speaking, you have a disagreement about what type of regulation is ideal."

3. Key Features of the Neoliberal Era

• Financialization & Conglomeration:
  Besner (12:15) pinpoints the rise of financialization and conglomeration since the 1980s as the distinctive economic characteristics of neoliberalism:

  • "To me, the two defining economic phenomena of the period since, let's say, the mid to late 1980s are conglomeration and financialization..."

• Deregulation's Role:
  Deregulation allowed for new forms of financial trading and massive mergers—e.g., Disney's acquisitions, made possible by easy credit and reduced antitrust enforcement.

• Tariffs and Economic Nationalism:
  Despite the political resurgence of tariffs and protectionism, Besner argues these moves don't fundamentally reverse neoliberalism's legacy unless they tackle financialization and conglomeration.

Notable Quote

• Besner (14:12): "I think you would actually have to attack the two core features of neoliberalism, which are conglomeration and financialization. And Trump has done none of that."

4. Is Neoliberalism Dead?—The "Post-Neoliberal" Claim (15:05–17:06)

• Host brings up Dani Rodrik’s claim of neoliberalism’s eclipse.
  • Magness: Is skeptical, noting Rodrik and others have declared neoliberalism "dead" repeatedly over decades, and argues that both left and now segments of the new populist right blame neoliberalism as a catchall for economic grievances.

Memorable Moments

• Magness (15:19): "He's been writing the same op ed for 25 years...It's like this one trick pony that has neoliberalism as his point of blame for everything that he dislikes about the modern economy, and he's just repackaged it in a new editorial."
• Magness (17:10): "The populist right and then the anti-market far left have settled in on this concept as their joint boogeyman for everything they see is wrong with the economy."

5. Neoliberalism’s Critics—Left and Right

• New Political Coalitions:
  Both panelists note that anti-neoliberal rhetoric is increasingly shared by disparate political actors: traditional left critics and the new anti-market right, exemplified by politicians like J.D. Vance (01:02–01:42).

• Historical Echoes:
  Magness links this convergence to historical critiques from both Marxists and reactionary populists in Weimar Germany (17:10), showing that "neoliberalism" as a term of abuse is not new.

6. The Free Market Myth & State Intervention (18:57–21:55)

• Besner: Challenges the libertarian vision of isolated markets:

  • "To me this is something that Mises and Hayek would have fucking hated...concentrates power...corporations are just states just at a lower level of organization."
  • Argues that genuine free markets have never existed; the state always picks winners and shapes markets.

• Magness: Agrees that collusion is historically persistent, but insists that free-market thinkers saw monopoly as a product of state-private collusion, not laissez-faire gone wild.

Notable Exchange

• Host (19:44): "18th century thinkers as well, our found fathers basically every—"
• Besner (21:43): "That's always my answer to the libertarian tradition. It's like, sure, but like, much like the anarchist tradition, it just doesn't happen in human history."

7. Financial Crisis & Responses (22:14–24:50)

• Crisis as Product of Collusion:
  Magness asserts financial crises (like 2008) stem from deep government-market entanglement and non-competitive arrangements, not pure "neoliberal" deregulation.

  • "Certainly there is government entanglement in the housing market and the lending market that works in ways that are very anti-competitive..."

• Libertarian Answers and Their Limits:
  Libertarians counter by proposing constitutional norms to mitigate collusion, but Besner critiques this as "leap of faith stuff" (24:31), doubting that constitutionalism alone can solve these problems.

Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• Phil Magness (03:11): “Neoliberalism has never been something that people have widely adopted as a self-descriptor of their views or their beliefs.”
• Daniel Besner (04:36): "I do find it useful from a historical perspective...to describe a new policy regime that is more skeptical of labor unions, more skeptical of regulation, more in favor of free markets..."
• J.D. Vance, guest audio (01:02): "One measure, I think, of globalization is how many of the profits are laundered through the financial sector in the American economy..."
• Magness (15:19): "He's been writing the same op ed for 25 years...It's like this one trick pony that has neoliberalism as his point of blame for everything that he dislikes about the modern economy..."
• Besner (12:15): "The two defining economic phenomena of the period since...the mid to late 1980s are conglomeration and financialization..."
• Magness (22:26): "Suppose someone like Mises or Hayek or Milton Friedman had been around and commenting on these events...all three of them would have been horrified with the policy response and the policy causes that brought about the financial crisis."

Important Timestamps & Segments

• 00:00–03:11: Introduction and debate set-up; J.D. Vance excerpt
• 03:11–06:30: Magness and Besner discuss the definitional ambiguity of “neoliberalism”
• 06:30–11:01: Historical background: continuity from New Deal/Keynesian debates; role of postwar thinkers
• 12:15–15:05: Besner details conglomeration and financialization as core traits of the neoliberal age
• 15:05–17:10: Discussion of repeated obituaries for neoliberalism; the new right’s adoption of anti-neoliberal language
• 18:57–21:55: Debate over the existence of “free markets” and state’s role in shaping the economy
• 22:14–24:50: Responses to 2008 financial crisis; can constitutional norms constrain collusion?
• 24:31–25:01: Final exchange (“leap of faith” critique vs. constitutionalist answer)

Tone

The conversation oscillates between lively academic debate and moments of pointed criticism, with both panelists showing professional respect despite their differences. Besner frequently peppers his analysis with wry humor and a touch of irreverence, while Magness remains focused on definitional precision and historical continuity.

Summary Takeaway

Neoliberalism—as a historical term and contemporary critique—is hotly contested. While some argue it is so elastic as to be meaningless, others maintain it marks a very real transformation in policy and power since the late 20th century (deregulation, decline of labor, financial sector dominance, conglomerate capitalism). Both left and right now use the term to explain a host of perceived economic ills, but its boundaries and value as a concept remain debated. The episode offers a lucid and at times contentious overview, equipping listeners with a deeper sense of the historical stakes and ongoing arguments around this ubiquitous but slippery idea.