D-Day in Film

Summary

Podcast Summary: History As It Happens – "D-Day in Film" Episode Released on June 6, 2025

Host: Martin Di Caro
Guest: Kevin Ruane, BI Fellow of Churchill College, University of Cambridge, and Professor Emeritus at Canterbury Christ Church University
Contributor: Julie Andrews

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Introduction

In the June 6, 2025 episode of History As It Happens, host Martin Di Caro delves into the cinematic portrayal of one of history’s most pivotal events: D-Day. Joined by historian Kevin Ruane and acclaimed actress Julie Andrews, the discussion navigates the intersection of film, history, and public perception, exploring how movies shape our understanding of war and its realities.

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The Role of War Films in Shaping Historical Perception

Martin Di Caro opens the conversation by posing critical questions about the nature of war films: “Can movies mirror the reality of war? Should war movies be entertaining? In what ways does film influence our attitudes or perceptions of the past as individuals, as a culture?”

Julie Andrews reflects on her upbringing in the 1960s and 70s, highlighting the dominance of World War II narratives in media:

“Nearly all those movies will have heroic World War II exploits at the heart of them. … It was kind of subliminally, kind of like osmosis.”
(02:45)

Kevin Ruane adds that films like "The Longest Day" and "Saving Private Ryan" have significantly influenced public interest in World War II, particularly the "Greatest Generation." He reminisces:

“The first D Day movie I saw was, yep, you guessed it, The Longest Day. … It seems so realistic, so convincing.”
(04:00)

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Analysis of Key War Films

"The Longest Day"

Julie Andrews praises "The Longest Day" for its epic scope and authenticity:

“It was an all-star cast … I still think it holds up and it would be in my top six.”
(15:05)

Ruane appreciates the film’s realistic portrayal, contrasting it with more fantastical representations:

“They treat the Germans like intelligent people. They’re not just a bunch of oafs and incompetent bumblers.”
(16:00)

"Saving Private Ryan"

The discussion shifts to Steven Spielberg’s "Saving Private Ryan", noted for its graphic depiction of D-Day:

“The opening battle sequence is simply unforgettable. The closing battle sequence was also scintillating.”
(03:45)

Ruane critiques the film’s focus on small unit combat, arguing it misrepresents the broader scope of World War II:

“World War II, the largest war ever fought … Small unit combat does not decide the outcome of war.”
(27:31)

Julie Andrews acknowledges Spielberg’s intention to convey anti-war sentiments through intense realism:

“The movie is black, it’s cynical, it’s very funny. … It’s in the vanguard of anti war movies.”
(24:00)

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The Complexity of Historical Representation in Cinema

Ruane and Andrews explore the balance between historical accuracy and cinematic appeal. Andrews asserts:

“Filmmakers who make films about history … have some obligation … to get things as right as possible.”
(52:25)

Conversely, Ruane highlights the challenges filmmakers face in portraying the multifaceted nature of war without oversimplifying:

“Imagine a D Day film that focuses solely on the suffering of French civilians. … Directors are making choices about the message they want to send.”
(25:00)

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Exploration of Anti-War Films

The conversation delves into films that challenge traditional war narratives. Ruane mentions "Overlord" (1975) as an example of an early anti-war film:

“It is about the utter bleakness of sacrifice … it’s dark and it’s troubling.”
(20:42)

Andrews introduces "The Americanization of Emily" (1964), highlighting its unconventional stance for its time:

“One of the main themes of the movie is that cowardice can sometimes be a noble thing.”
(55:30)

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British versus American Perspectives in War Films

Ruane raises questions about the British role in World War II as depicted in films:

“How important was it for your people to look back on this war the way it's often depicted?”
(35:34)

Andrews provides historical context, explaining Britain’s post-war reluctance to join European federal constructs and how this influenced cinematic narratives:

“Movies coming out after 1945 are supportive of ‘we are still a great power’ narrative … nobody was ready to accept the reality of decline.”
(36:28)

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Personal Narratives and Emotional Impact

The speakers emphasize the power of personal stories in war films to evoke emotional responses. Andrews discusses the impact of "The Great Escaper" (2023), portraying a poignant tale of an elderly British sailor’s journey to Normandy:

“It is poignant, it is beautifully observed … it is about dealing with the past, past trauma, but it is also full of hope.”
(59:29)

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Conclusion: The Enduring Legacy of D-Day Films

Martin Di Caro wraps up the episode by acknowledging the continued relevance of D-Day films in shaping historical consciousness:

“We’re seeing a lot of gore … Saving Private Ryan makes any list of the best D Day movies.”
(25:47)

Ruane agrees, noting that while films often emphasize heroism and sacrifice, they sometimes overlook the broader and more chaotic realities of war:

“War should always disgust us. … We’re seeing a lot of gore, … but that’s only part of the picture.”
(20:14)

Julie Andrews concludes by highlighting the diverse range of war narratives and their reflection of contemporary societal moods:

“Movies clearly reflect the popular mood in which they are made … So we need to be mindful of when these movies are made.”
(48:17)

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Julie Andrews (02:45): “It was kind of subliminally, kind of like osmosis.”
• Kevin Ruane (05:26): “But what's left out of these movies is what I think about now as much as what's in them.”
• Julie Andrews (15:05): “… I still think it holds up and it would be in my top six.”
• Kevin Ruane (16:00): “They treat the Germans like intelligent people. They’re not just a bunch of oafs and incompetent bumblers.”
• Julie Andrews (24:00): “It’s in the vanguard of anti war movies.”
• Kevin Ruane (25:00): “Directors are making choices about the message they want to send.”
• Julie Andrews (55:30): “The main theme is that cowardice can sometimes be a noble thing.”

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Final Thoughts

The episode intricately weaves historical analysis with cinematic critique, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of how D-Day has been represented in film. By examining both mainstream and anti-war movies, History As It Happens provides valuable insights into the enduring legacy of World War II cinema and its role in shaping collective memory and perception.

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For more detailed discussions and historical insights, subscribe to Martin Di Caro's newsletter at historyasithappens.com or find the podcast on your preferred platform, with new episodes airing every Tuesday and Friday.

Transcript

[Martin DeCaro]

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[Kevin Ruane]

History as it happens. June 6, 2025. D Day in film.

[Winston Churchill]

Soldiers, sailors and airmen of the Allied Expeditionary Force, you are about to embark upon the great crusade toward which we have striven these many months. The eyes of the world are upon you. And so in this poignant hour, I.

[Julie Andrews]

Ask you to join with me in prayer.

[Winston Churchill]

All night long, bulletins have been pouring in from Berlin claim that D Day is here. Allied naval forces, supported by strong air forces, began landing Allied armies this morning on the northern coast of France. I don't have to tell you the story. You all know it. Only two kinds of people are going to stay on this beach. Those that are already dead and those that are going to die. Now get out your fence. You guys are the fight. 29th.

[Kevin Ruane]

Can movies mirror the reality of war? Should war movies be entertaining? In what ways does film influence our attitudes or perceptions of the past as individuals, as a culture? What are your favorite movies and why? These questions and more as we talk D Day on the big screen, as we report history as it happens. I'm Martin DeCaro.

[Julie Andrews]

Growing up in the 60s, going into the 70s, there was only two or three TV channels. Most of those are showing World War II movies of one kind or another. And nearly all of those movies will have heroic World War II exploits at the heart of them. And since you're watching these goodies be baddies movies and the Nazis turned out to be great villains. Hollywood might have to invent them if they didn't exist. I don't. I don't. I'm not trivializing the reality of the Nazis, but filmically, they were great villains that transposed itself into the playground where you'd be playing your war games. And of course, nobody wanted to be. Nobody wanted to be the Germans. You always wanted to be the plucky Brits because there's so little tv, there's no Internet or anything else to distract you. You did read my generation a lot. And of course you read books, but you also read comics. And I devoured comics like the Eagle and, wait for it, Victor, which had, in one form, World War II heroic narratives woven in. So everywhere I went really, as I was growing up, it was kind of subliminally, kind of like osmosis.

[Kevin Ruane]

There is reality and then there's what we picture reality must be like. Take the invasion of Normandy. The US assault on Omaha beach, the morning of June 6, 1944.

[Winston Churchill]

Soldiers, sailors and airmen of the Allied Expeditionary Force, you are about to embark upon the great crusade toward which we have striven these many months. The eyes of the world are upon you. The hopes and prayers of liberty loving people everywhere march with you in company with our brave allies and brothers in arms on other fronts. You will bring about the destruction of the German war machine, the elimination of Nazi tyranny over the oppressed peoples of Europe, and security for ourselves in a free world. Backing up the mightiest invasion by air. 4,000 ships, combat and landing craft carry the war to the enemy by sea. The Coast Guard, the Navy, the Air forces land hundreds of thousands of British, Canadians and Yanks on Hitler's doorstep within a few.

[Kevin Ruane]

You know. Online you can find lots of grainy silent archival film footage of D Day. Some of it shows combat. A lot of it does not. It would have been rather dangerous, after all, for a cameraman to set up a tripod with machine gun bullets whizzing all around him that day. None of the documentary footage I've seen comes close to the action depicted on the big screen in Steven Spielberg's fictional Saving Private Ryan. I remember. Who doesn't remember seeing this movie in theaters in 1998? The opening battle sequence is simply unforgettable. The closing battle sequence was also scintillating. The middle of the movie was, eh, not as interesting. Yet Saving Private Ryan makes any list of the best D Day movies. The first D Day movie I saw was, yep, you guessed it, the Longest Day. As I've said on past episodes, my teenage eyes were so impressed by the Longest Day, it sparked my interest in World War II and in history. I used to watch it while playing a World War II board game with my friends, Axis and Allies. It seems so realistic, so convincing.

[Winston Churchill]

I don't have to tell you the story, you all know it. Only two kinds of people are going to stay on this beach. Those that are already dead and those that are going to die. Now get off your butts.

[Kevin Ruane]

But in ways I didn't recognize when I was much younger, both these films had a way of distorting the past. Or maybe a better way of putting it is shaping my understanding of war that made me believe I understood things. But what's left out of These movies is what I think about now as much as what's in them. So, yeah, I'm playing a film critic in this episode, kind of. It would take a lifetime to watch all the movies made about World War II. Some of them are about D Day, some I'd never heard of until consulting different lists online of top 10 D day films. And I'll share links to those lists in my weekly newsletter. You can sign [e-mail] or just go to Substack and search for history as it happens. And I'll try not to get too analytical here or sound like a hypocrite, because while I think it's kind of strange that we enjoy or find entertaining war movies, I enjoy watching war movies. And joining me is historian Kevin Ruane, a BI fellow of Churchill College, University of Cambridge, and professor emeritus of Canterbury Christ Church University. He has written and taught on a wide range of international topics, including the Second World War, and he's a regular contributor to television, radio and online history programs, including most recently, Churchill at War on Netflix. Our conversation next History is defined by the names that stand the test of time, names that inspire, unite and lead. Now it's your turn to create a lasting legacy with the Dot vote domain. Whether you're running for office, driving change, or rallying support, a dot vote domain ensures your name is as memorable as those in the history books. Visit GoDaddy.com type in your name. Vote and secure a web address that stands out. Claim your place in history with Dot vote. Kevin Ruane, welcome back.

[Julie Andrews]

It's great to be back.

[Kevin Ruane]

We're going to talk some serious stuff here, but we're going to be talking movies, too. We should have a little bit of fun. You know, I'm not a movie critic. I'm not a cultural critic or cultural historian. I'm not in anything. I'm a podcast host. You're a historian, but you're not a movie critic either. Yeah, go ahead.

[Julie Andrews]

I'm a movie lover. Yeah, so am I. I'm somebody that has always sought, wherever possible, to bring not just film, but art and literature and culture in its wider sense into a kind of, you know, joined up philosophy of teaching. If I've got any of my former students out there listening, they might disagree with that.

[Kevin Ruane]

I think that's great.

[Julie Andrews]

Cinema and film is very important to me personally and it's very important to me as a tool, as an educator.

[Kevin Ruane]

I spoke to Lawrence Rees recently. He just wrote another book about the Third Reich. He says he does not Watch history movies as a historian, he just doesn't like them, you know, you shouldn't be getting your history from movies. You should read history books. However, movies have a way of connecting with us on an emotional level. The emotive power of movies, we can feel, feel it differently than when you're just reading the dry pages of a history book. The movie brings it to life and maybe it'll spark interest certainly in the United States. Saving Private Ryan and other movies sparked a lot of interest in the so called Greatest Generation. So that's where I actually wanted to start. On a personal note, I'll share my personal story, such as it is, in a bit, but you were born in the 60s. Sorry, I'm giving away your age. I guess you were born in the 60s in Great Britain. How much was World War II part of your mil you as a young man?

[Julie Andrews]

I was born in 1962, so the year of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Different war, but I was born to Irish parents, so an Irish nationalist parents. Actually Republican parents. So at one level in my house, Britain's recent past ought not to have been a fairly prominent feature, but it was simply through popular culture. Growing up in the 60s, going into the 70s, there was only two or three TV channels. Most of those are showing World War II movies of one kind or another. And nearly all those movies will have heroic World War II exploits at the heart of them. And since you're watching these goodies be baddies movies and the Nazis turn out to be great villains, Hollywood might have had to invent them if they didn't exist. I don't, I don't. I'm not trivializing the reality of the Nazis, but filmically they were great villains that transposed itself into the playground where you'd be playing your war games. And of course, nobody wanted to be. Nobody wanted to be the Germans. You always wanted to be the plucky Brits. The toys you played with, the model kits as a young. The model kits that I'd make would be Spitfires and Hurricanes. These Airfix kits. I don't know if you've got an equivalent to Airfix in the usa. And, and the last thing I'd say is because there's so little tv, there's no Internet or anything else to distract you. You did read my generation a lot. And of course you read books, but you also read comics. And I devoured comics like the Eagle and wait for it, Victor, which had in one form or another, World War II heroic narratives woven in. So everywhere I went really, as I was growing up, it was kind of subliminally, kind of like osmosis, human osmosis. It was seeping into me.

[Kevin Ruane]

Absolutely. So I did not say, you are British, you were born to Irish parents. I said you were born in Great Britain. Was that also a faux pas, though? Did I get that wrong? Were you born in Ireland or Great Britain?

[Julie Andrews]

I was born in England. Yeah.

[Kevin Ruane]

Okay.

[Julie Andrews]

I was born in a place called St. Albans in Hertfordshire, just north of London.

[Kevin Ruane]

My story is a little different, but I am interested in how the heroism was depicted. Was Great Britain the real conqueror, the real victor in the way it was presented to you, or were they minor players who, quote, unquote, punched above their weight? That terrible cliche, fighting for freedom, but not the freedom of the subject peoples of the British Empire, of course. But we'll return to that in a bit. We'll also talk about movies at some point here, but my story is a little bit different. I grew up in the 80s and 90s. Cold War Ronald Reagan. But Vietnam weighed very heavily. Of course, World War II is there, especially as I mentioned in the 1990s, greatest generation book by Tom Brokaw. As that generation got older and really important anniversaries came up, like the 40th anniversary when Ronald Reagan spoke at Pointe du Hoc.

[Winston Churchill]

Gentlemen, I look at you and I think of the words of Steven Spender's poem. You were men who, in your, quote, lives, fought for life and left the vivid air signed with Your Honor.

[Kevin Ruane]

The 50th anniversary of D Day in 1994. Then the 50th anniversary of the end of the war itself the following year. This is again in the mid-90s. You get saving Private Ryan a couple of years later. So of course it was there. But Vietnam War movies were a big part of my childhood as well. Anyway, my First World War II experience was watching the Longest Day.

[Winston Churchill]

Yeah.

[Kevin Ruane]

And also a relative gave me John Keegan's the Second World War. So I was a teenager. I didn't care about a lot of stuff, like serious stuff. But I read that book, started my interest in history. It was the first serious book I ever read.

[Winston Churchill]

Many men came here as soldiers Many men will pass this way Many men will come to your.

[Kevin Ruane]

We'll start with the Longest Day. That wasn't a British film, but it was an international film. Have you used Longest Day in your classroom? What do you think of that as a. As a D Day movie?

[Julie Andrews]

I haven't used it in the classroom, but as I was preparing for this, I'm not gonna rank them, but I've got six movies out of a whole raft of D day or D Day related movies.

[Kevin Ruane]

Cool.

[Julie Andrews]

You could even say, you know, the Dirty Dozen is ostensibly a D day movie if you want, and Where Eagles Dare and the rest of it. But I've got six and I have to say the Longest Day is in there. What are we looking at? 1962, the year I was born. It's got epic sweep because the event was epic in itself. It was an epic event within an epic titanic global conflict. I understand it was the most expensive black and white movie made until Schindler's List, but looking back now, I think if I was showing it to students, many of them might say it's a bit slow, it's a bit dialogue heavy, but I don't mind that. I remember when I was at university being impressed with. And in fact it's the title of a book by Gabriel Kolko, is it not? The Politics of War. War isn't always fought on the battlefield. I'm kind of interested in the talking bit of war as well. But nonetheless it was an all star cast who wasn't in the movie in terms of big stars of the day, Robert Mitchum, John Wayne.

[Winston Churchill]

One more thing. Your assignment tonight is strategic. You can't give the enemy a break. Send them to hell. That is all.

[Julie Andrews]

Richard Todd, British actor, wore the beret that he wore on his head when he parachuted in, being one of the first British soldiers to land on the soil of Normandy.

[Kevin Ruane]

Oh, wow.

[Julie Andrews]

On the 6th of June 1944. He wore his beret in 2D day related movies, but he wore it in the Longest Day. Star studded cast, grand sweep visually for its time. Very, very arresting. And as a piece of the politics of, of the history of D Day as well as a visual spectacular, I still think it holds up and it would be in my top six.

[Kevin Ruane]

I didn't know that about Richard Todd, by the way, that's also the name of a former New York jets quarterback, but we won't go there.

[Julie Andrews]

Well, it was a. It was a different Richard Todd.

[Kevin Ruane]

So I loved the Longest Day and I still like it in a nostalgic sense because it brings me back to my teenage years watching this impressive movie. So realistic. They treat the Germans like intelligent people. They're not just a bunch of oafs and incompetent bumblers as they're often portrayed in World War II movies like We're Eagles Dare that you mentioned where Richard Burton and Clint Eastwood take out 5,000 German soldiers with a pair of submachine guns and some dynamite. You know, just completely ridiculous. More of an action movie. We got company.

[Winston Churchill]

Broadsword calling Danny boy.

[Kevin Ruane]

But I love the Longest Day because I thought it was realistic. Now, you compare that to some modern war movies. You know, there's no blood in the Longest Day. And it is heroicized. It's star studded. I mentioned I don't like John Wayne. I thought he was a ham in that movie. With exception of one scene. He's really, really good when he discovers the aftermath of the battle of San Maro Glees where the paratroopers are dropped on the town in the middle of the night. Were shot out of the air by the German defenders. He was good in that segment of the movie.

[Winston Churchill]

Those bodies. Get those bodies down. What are you doing leaving them up there like that? Get them down. Of course. Yes, sir. But we've been under fire. I know you have, but I don't care. Get them down. Down. Don't want those boys left up there. Take a detail and cut those bodies down at once. Colonel, has there been a link up between our forces and the troops coming in from the sea? I don't know, major. I don't even know if the landings took place. One thing I'm sure of, we're gonna hold this town till the link up does come. Whenever it is. Today, tomorrow, till hell freezes over. For their sake, if for no other reason.

[Kevin Ruane]

But, you know, I think often about the impression that movie made on me and the cultural work those kinds of movies do. I always say war should disgust us. War should always disgust us. Disgust should not be the only emotion we feel. Right. There was real heroism and courage. That's something that the Longest Day does a good job of depicting. How chaotic the invasion was and how it almost did not succeed. But I don't know. The Longest Day is sanitized in many ways. And we should not sanitize war.

[Julie Andrews]

It is sanitized. I think it comes at a phase where, what, 15 years after the Second World War. I was put in mind while you were talking about the principles that Sir John Reef, who effectively set up the BBC, the British Broadcasting Corporation in the 1920s, he said that the BBC should do three things. It should inform, it should educate, and it should entertain. And if you can do all three of those in a single package, you know you've hit the jackpot. I think looking back, the Longest Day does inform. I think it does educate. You can contest and question and query. But I think it does seek to be a serious minded piece of work. But it also does entertain. Should war be entertainment? Should we be going to cinemas in large numbers to enjoy this spectacle? Well, whether we should or not, the fact is that this is a war, the Second World War at any rate, that just doesn't end in terms of celluloid. It goes on and on. And we might want to ask ourselves why it's got such cinematic and cultural staying power in a way, for example, that the Vietnam War doesn't. I don't think there's been a Vietnam, a mainstream big movie on Vietnam for over 20 years since maybe, maybe the five bloods, you could count that. But then going back to we were soldiers, Vietnam had its moment. But then of course, Vietnam is a controversial war. It's a contested war. It's a war that divided American society. It's a war that divided Hollywood. And of course I think you're going to see Afghanistan dividing Hollywood and, and Iraq and, and, and even the Cold War. What you have with World War II and it's, it's kind of the longest day is an exemplar of this is maybe we've got a nostalgia for an era of moral certainty. There were good guys and there were bad guys. It would appear also it's a war that America won, it's a war that Britain won, the Allies won, which isn't always the case with wars. I think why it's got that longevity is. Yeah, I think it's connected to nostalgia in a hurly burly, tumultuous present and recent past for those moral certainties of the Greatest Generation era.

[Winston Churchill]

I don't think I have to remind you that this war has been going on for almost five years. Over half of Europe has been overrun and occupied. We're comparative newcomers. England's gone through a blitz with a knife at our throat since 1940. I'm quite sure that they too are impatient and itching to go. Do I make myself clear? Yes, sir, quite clear.

[Kevin Ruane]

There is no such thing as an anti war World War II movie.

[Julie Andrews]

I think there is. You sent me some homework, didn't you?

[Kevin Ruane]

I did. Well, I watched a movie called overlord from 1974. Is that the one you referring to?

[Julie Andrews]

I've got one. 11 years before that, 10 years before. Now you tell me about Overlord 1975 because it's a great film, by the way.

[Kevin Ruane]

Yeah, I did watch it for the first time. It's ambiguous. It's a montage of documentary footage of different parts of the war actually starts with clips of Hitler in an airplane overlooking France after the Germans won the Battle of France in 1940. So it's not just 1944, but it follows the story of a young man who's drafted into the army. His last name is Beddoes. Tom Beddoes. Tom Beddoes. Reminiscent of Full Metal Jacket, the Vietnam War movie, with the shouting Drill Sergeant, or whoever it was. And this young man comes to believe that he's gonna die anyway. So as the landing craft is approaching the beaches on D day, he stands up and gets shot in the head. And that's the end of the movie.

[Winston Churchill]

Oh, Christ. Is it Tommy, get out the bloody way. Jack Odium. I see all them. Hold him. Hold him. Lay him down.

[Julie Andrews]

It's all right.

[Winston Churchill]

I've got him laying down. Oh, God, he's dead.

[Julie Andrews]

For your listeners, it's 1975. It's called Overlord. It's directed by Stuart Cooper, who I understand is an American, incidentally, but it is taking an everyman figure, a British soldier. It's not. It's not a mainstream movie. It didn't have a big cinematic release. I don't even think it made it even to the United States.

[Kevin Ruane]

But, I mean, there's no battle scenes and there's no actual invasion of Normandy. It ends before he hits the beach, but go ahead. Yeah, yeah.

[Julie Andrews]

About a third of the movie is actual real World War II footage, which the Imperial War Museum provided. And it's woven in by the director into the bigger picture. It follows an everyman from recruitment to nascent doom on the beaches in 1944. I thought it was dreamy, it was hypnotic, it was reflective, it was poetic. And I've seen it said, actually, that the script for Overlord could have been written by Wilfred Owen, the great World War I poet. And of course, one of his most, if not his most famous poem. Well, dolce et decorum est pro patria mori. It is a great and glorious thing to die for one's country. Except if you watch this movie, it's.

[Winston Churchill]

Not Now Bring Me Back.

[Kevin Ruane]

He's talking with another soldier at one point in training, and the soldier says, you know what? We're Cannon fodder.

[Winston Churchill]

Cannon fodder, that's what we are. Dive, boredom, dying battle.

[Kevin Ruane]

What's the difference? So you're right. It's. That's an anti war message.

[Julie Andrews]

So many of these movies that we're going to talk about are about heroic sacrifice, but what Cooper wanted to convey was the utter bleakness of sacrifice.

[Kevin Ruane]

Yes.

[Julie Andrews]

And, yeah, it's. It's dark and it's troubling. But war is dark and troubling.

[Kevin Ruane]

Yeah. To my earlier point, shouldn't we be disgusted by war? Why do we find it entertaining? You know, imagine a D Day movie, and there have been like 1400 or so by unofficial count, World War II movies made, not all of them about D Day. The number about D Day are relatively small. That just focus on the invasion of Normandy, Operation Overlord. Imagine a D Day film that focuses solely on, say, the suffering of French civilians. Or to your point, about heroic exploits, heroic victory. Or maybe see a D Day film. You walk into the theater, you sit down, and for two hours you just see blunders, accidents, egoism that winds up killing and wounding thousands of Allied soldiers, men stepping on mines, falling for booby traps. The number of soldiers that were killed by their own aircraft, especially on the American side, pilots dropping their bombs short. There was a major offensive during the breakout period in Normandy that had to be delayed for several days because there were so many mistaken bombings. And then the flip side of that is American soldiers started shooting at their own aircraft because they were so nervous, they weren't sure. Is that an American plane or a German plane? We can't tell. And I got a lot of this information from Antony Beaver's book On D Day, which is really brilliant. Paratroopers dropped out of their planes so low to the ground that their parachutes don't have time to open. If you watched a movie like that that shows how many French civilians, thousands killed in the Allied bombardment, you come out of the theater saying, what the hell is this? Where's the rest of the story? But I guess my point here, Kevin, I'll eventually shut up, is that when these movies are done, the directors, the producers, the actors, they're making choices of the message they want to send with these films and those film cultural work. We're seeing a lot of gore, especially in Saving Private Ryan. And yes, war is horrifying, but it's only part of the picture.

[Julie Andrews]

Am I allowed to ask you a question?

[Kevin Ruane]

Yeah, but that means I have to talk even more. But go. Yeah, go ahead.

[Julie Andrews]

Okay. I'm not going to forget that I do have an anti war movie from 1964.

[Kevin Ruane]

I will go back to you, but.

[Julie Andrews]

You talk about Saving Private Ryan, and I think Saving Private Ryan is going to be the kind of movie that threads in and out of our conversation quite a lot because there was before Saving Private Ryan and there's since Saving Private Ryan. Spielberg said that he'd made an anti war movie. So you're shaking your head, listeners. He's shaking his head. Put words to the shaking head.

[Kevin Ruane]

So is it an anti war movie? In some ways, yes, because it is the most graphic depiction of World War II combat probably ever made. Maybe there's others that were gorier, you know, but I've thought a lot about Saving Private Ryan since watching it again last year before I did a D Day episode about American cemeteries. A couple of things. Number one, Cathal Nolan, a great historian who's been on my show, points out that that genre of film and the way World War II entered the public mainstream, the main line during this period focuses on small unit combat. That is not the way to analyze. Again, we're talking about movies here, not history. But World War II, the largest war ever fought. Tens, if not hundreds of millions of people across the world. Small unit combat does not decide the outcome of war. So that's a way of looking at war. Spielberg takes focusing on the heroism and the selflessness of these soldiers who go to save Private Ryan, when really it was irrelevant in a sense, it was pointless. Well, the soldiers do make that point in the movie. What are we doing this for? We're supposed to be defeating the Nazis. Not saving one more soldier is probably gonna die anyway. That was a real doozy, wasn't it, Serge?

[Winston Churchill]

Soldier, you are way out of line. Yes, sir.

[Julie Andrews]

That was one hell of a call.

[Kevin Ruane]

Coming to take this nest.

[Julie Andrews]

But the hell we only lost one.

[Kevin Ruane]

Of our guys going for it. I swear, I hope Mama Ryan's real.

[Winston Churchill]

Fucking happy knowing that little Jimmy's life is a little bit more important than two of our guys.

[Kevin Ruane]

But then again, we haven't found him yet, have we?

[Winston Churchill]

Have we?

[Kevin Ruane]

Here you go. The hell off me.

[Winston Churchill]

Ryvin.

[Kevin Ruane]

Get up. Gear up.

[Julie Andrews]

Fall in.

[Kevin Ruane]

I'm done with this mission. I guess that's one way that Saving Private Ryan is misleading in a sense. Focusing on small unit combat, which in a world war is irrelevant. The other thing is, despite all the death and destruction and basically every major character is killed by the end of the movie. It ends with the elderly Gray Ryan going back to the cemetery, right? And thanking the soldiers kneeling at their gravestones for what they did.

[Julie Andrews]

Every day I think about what you.

[Winston Churchill]

Said to me that day on the bridge. I've tried to live my life the best I could.

[Julie Andrews]

I hope that was enough.

[Winston Churchill]

I hope that at least in your.

[Julie Andrews]

Eyes, I've earned what all of you have done for me.

[Kevin Ruane]

So there had to be something, had to be something redeeming out of all that violence and all that loss. And to me, that's Spielberg saying, you know what? It's not just Ryan who's grateful. We have to be grateful, too. Look what these men did for us. You come away feeling redeemed, that it was worth something.

[Julie Andrews]

Okay, keep talking. Now, a few things that I can spin out of what you've said. Number one, following on from that, of course, Band of Brothers. We're kind of talking about cinema. So. So this is a TV series, but it's what, 10 episodes an hour long? It's got the time to deal with some complexity and ambiguousness of what's going on. Although in Saving Private Ryan, I think probably for the first time a mainstream American made movie, you've got, should we say, scenes that show the summary execution of German prisoners by American soldier.

[Winston Churchill]

What do you say? What do you say? Look, I washed for Summer.

[Julie Andrews]

But that summer execution moment, it was couched in a context which said sometimes even good guys have to do bad things to achieve the good end. So it was all. It was all fine. The other thing I thought rewatching it in the last year or so was that after Those, those brutal 27 minutes, it kind of goes Spielbergian now. I've seen it two or three times. It becomes a classic quest. I don't want to trivialize it, but, you know, it's Indiana Jones seeking, you know, not the Holy Grail, but at least the Holy Grail this time in human form. It's.

[Kevin Ruane]

It's a preposterous scenario that would never have happened. But go ahead.

[Julie Andrews]

It is also a preposterous scenario. You're absolutely right. And then what is the first obligation of a filmmaker who has a big Hollywood studio and a big budget behind him and lots of competing interests and stakeholders to satisfy? Is it to be a historian loyal at all times to the truth in all its messiness, or is his first loyalty to what in this country we. We call bums on seats? You've got to get the punters in the cinema to that extent. You've kind of got to give them what they want, what they expect within the framework of giving them what they want and expect. You can be somewhat subversive, but you can't subvert. So far they do leave the cinema, as you said a little while ago, Martin kind of grumbling, what was that all about? Kind of thing. So, yeah, those are just a few reflections on.

[Kevin Ruane]

No, I think you're right. Yeah. Spielberg wouldn't probably, in a movie like that, not show an American soldier raping a French civilian, which Happened. I mean, you could say, well, the movie's not about that. Well, we make choices about what we want to have movies about. And I'm not saying it should have had that. I mean, the French civilians are truly invisible in the Longest Day. A movie made in 1962 would not show thousands of French civilians dying in the Allied bombardment. And, you know, in Saving Private Ryan, there is a scene where the French family is stuck on, like, the third floor of their flat there, their home, and the building is sawed in half. Who did the bombardment? That was the Allied bombardment. You get a little of that there. No, no, no, we can't take the kids. They want Americans. Or Spielberg wanted Americans to leave the theater feeling grateful about the Greatest Generation and their sacrifices. I know I did. I was much younger when I first saw it. I view the movie a little bit differently now. It is a hero movie, and it is BS because nothing like that would have ever have happened. Let me ask you a question, though.

[Julie Andrews]

Oh, no, no, no.

[Kevin Ruane]

Hang on, hang on.

[Julie Andrews]

This is the wonderful way these kind of conversations spiral.

[Kevin Ruane]

Yeah.

[Julie Andrews]

You said Spielberg is not going to make a film where he has US Soldiers doing awful things, appalling things to, should we say French women, civilians. Michael J. Fox is forever in my mind. Maybe your mind for Back to the Future and stuff, and also for the really sad way his particular condition has impacted his career, but also how superbly he's kind of risen above that. But he appeared In a film, 1989 film, directed by Brian De Palma, called Casualties of War. I don't know if you know it. And of course, we're spiraling also towards Vietnam War, a contested war that has produced when there's not many pro Vietnam war movies out there, I suppose you could say. But this is precisely the difficult terrain that you've mentioned that maybe people don't go to in a Second World War context, mainstream movies. It's Michael J. Fox playing this young guy, almost a rookie in a platoon of veterans, as I recall. And they have a Vietnamese woman who they drag around. And In World War II, the Japanese had comfort women, that kind of thing. This is the. What they've got here. They bring this woman with them, and she's there for their brutal pleasure as and when they want it. And it is Michael J. Fox going through this terrible dilemma. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the war I am supposed to be fighting here, what I'm seeing in front of me is a wrong, and how do I right a wrong? And it's a very, very difficult and challenging movie for somebody who was regarded as rather fluffy actor. And I think hats off to, to Michael J. Fox for taking on that role. But that's Vietnam. That is a war that A, America lost, B, that was contentious and conflicted from the very start. And it's different terrain. Cinematic.

[Kevin Ruane]

Yeah. Americans opposed it in part because of what the United States was doing to the people of Vietnam. Thinking about Platoon, a scene where the soldiers go into the village and commit atrocities. Tom Barringer playing Sergeant Barnes, shoots a woman in the head. American soldiers mostly did not behave terribly in France. There was a lot of looting and theft, but there was not the same kind of systematic abuses. Well, first of all, no one can top what the Nazis did in France with the Gestapo and the SS trampling all over the French people. Right. So we're not even in the same universe there. But there was bad behavior on the part of American soldiers. You're just not going to see that in a, in a movie. And in a cultural milieu where we have heroes, like a generation of heroes, it's hard to fit in complexity there. So let me ask you a question as a Brit born to Irish parents.

[Julie Andrews]

Yeah.

[Kevin Ruane]

Careful. Yes. So World War II, the British were on the winning side and did of course make important contributions to victory. Stood up to the Nazis when they were alone in 1940. But this was the post war period, was very tough for ordinary people in Great Britain. They were lean years and the Empire went away. Churchill wanted to preserve the Empire. He opposed in part for a while, the second front in France. He wanted to open a second front in the Balkans because the British had interests in the Eastern Mediterranean, etc. Right. He wasn't necessarily fighting for freedom. He was fighting to preserve the British Empire. And this is when the British Empire disappears and the United States is the global hegemon. So how important was it for your people to look back on this war the way it's often depicted? You know, you were one of the great powers who contributed to total victory.

[Julie Andrews]

I've got a kind of weird way of answering that question that's.

[Kevin Ruane]

I like weird answers.

[Julie Andrews]

It's going to seem completely disconnected from anything you've said. In 1950, across the Channel in Western Europe, the French and West Germans, along with the Dutch, Belgium and Holland and Italy, they got together and they formed the European Coal and Steel Community. It was, it was the first step towards Western European unity. It was a federal construct. It did require giving up national control over your steel and coal industries. And Britain didn't want a part in that it was offered membership, but it said no because Britain regarded itself as very different from those across the English Channel. Britain had been the superpower of the 19th and going into the 20th century it had, if you like, won two world wars. Even though that have been incredibly damaging, not just economically but to the structures of society, let alone the empire. But people aren't feeling that at that moment. So if the Western Europeans want to unite, that's fine. Britain still regards itself in 1950 as maybe not a global power on the same level now as the United States or maybe even the Soviet Union, which is emerging now, but it's still a great power. And that maybe is part of the illusion, the sort of the mass illusion that being a Victor in 1945 brings. And even going right into the 50s, there's more of these European unity developments. And it's not just British governments are saying, or if it's a Labour government in 1950 or a Conservative government after 1951, we don't want to be part of a federal construct in Europe. I don't think public opinion was ready for it. Public opinion in this country did not regard itself or didn't regard Britain as a nation that was ready to give up being a global player and settle down to being a medium ranked power off the coast of Western Europe. Given that self perception, it's going to take some rude jolts, like the suez crisis in 1956 for example, to really reinforce reality. But I think the movies that you see coming out after 1945 are supportive of we are still a great power narrative and no audience would be ready for alternatives if filmmakers were even prepared to countenance them. And that's the way it goes right through, I think the 40s, the 50s and into the 60s, at least the first two and a half decades of filmmaking after the war. So I don't think anybody was ready to accept the reality of decline, although looking back, decline was there.

[Kevin Ruane]

Historians like to say nothing is inevitable, but some things are. What do you think about what I've said a couple of times here that the British really weren't fighting for freedom? I mean, fighting for your own freedom, you know, Churchill, was he fighting for the freedom of the subject peoples in India and what became Pakistan after partition?

[Julie Andrews]

Hey, it's complex, I think. Yeah, look, Britain was fighting in the first instance. Well, it was an existential threat. It was across the channel, it was 20 miles away. So from May June 1940 onwards there was in Europe at least. Yeah, an existential threat. So you are fighting for national survival. The idea of Britain alone, which during the 2016 Brexit referendum, you know, we, we didn't need Europe in 1940, we didn't need anybody in 1940. We stood alone. That's not true because Britain had a vast Commonwealth and empire had all sorts of other things going for it. But nonetheless the threat was real and the threat was genuine. When it comes to the war in Asia, not the Pacific, that became an American theater, but Southeast Asia. Britain established the Southeast Asia Command seac, which of course American soldiers in, in that theater quickly dubbed. I don't know if you know, the save England's Asiatic colonies. And I do think, yeah, the UK was seeking close to home in Europe and the Mediterranean and North Africa to see off an existential threat. It's on the doorstep. But beyond that, yeah, it was seeking to preserve or recover if you like, for after the war, its empire. Churchill certainly was because that was going to be some kind of engine to be exploited when it comes to the Britain's own domestic recovery. So yeah, multiple objectives, national security, national defense, but also preserving the empire. And again, it wasn't a lone Churchill obsession. The empire and Commonwealth was kind of hardwired into the political establishment, even to a large extent public opinion. So that wouldn't have gone against the grain in the UK. What it went against the grain of was FDR's own anti colonial prejudices. No, prejudices aren't the right word. I think he was right to be anti colonials. So they weren't prejudices. I just remember there was an exchange reported by Elliot Roosevelt, Roosevelt's son, when the Atlantic Charter was promulgated in August 1941. And amongst the charter's terms, it says that Britain is fighting now and America will fight if and when she comes in for the right of all people to choose the form of government they will live under. So something called self determination. And Churchill's going to put his name to any piece of paper in all August 1941 that will help America get into the war quick and help Roosevelt. But later on he does have this moment with Roosevelt and he says something like Mr. President to you. And I take it that when you talk about the right of people who choose form of government, they will live on it. You weren't referring to the British Empire. And Roosevelt, apparently in Britain we'd say, held him with a Paddington Bear stare. Anyway, a stare and said, Winston, it applies to all humanity. And I think that's a great Anglo American wartime difference that the movies don't really deal with. And the issue of Empire.

[Kevin Ruane]

I like your impersonations, by the way. I guess, you know, I have sometimes maybe I go too far the other end of the spectrum. A knee jerk negative reaction to slogans. They fought for freedom. Well, in World War II probably say, yeah, but you know, because our enemies were so monstrously horrific, it's hard to look at the good guys with shades of gray. But there is a movie. It's not a D day movie. Could be called an anti World War II movie because it's about a battle. The really only major battle the Allies or the United States army lost in the European theater now is the battle of the Hurtkin Forest. And the name of the movie is When Trumpets Fade. It's available on streaming and was an HBO made for TV movie late 1990s, really. It was around the same time Saving Private Ryan came out. Although this was not a major cinematic release. It is dark. There are no heroes. The main character is an anti hero. And it just shows the pointlessness of combat. Men being chewed up by the thousands in the forest as the Germans rain artillery shells.

[Julie Andrews]

Why do they leave them there like that?

[Winston Churchill]

Fucking brass. They don't want to waste the trucks on the dead. They still got more guys to haul in for the slaughter. No more room in hell. What are you talking about? There's plenty of room. All I gotta do is stack them higher. How many do you think hundreds met just in the last five days. How can they let this happen and still pretend to be human beings? I haven't seen one of those sick fucks over rank a captain here since I've been up here. They're looking at points on a map. Not one of them has a fucking clue what's going on up here. Shit flows down. Goddamn right.

[Kevin Ruane]

The main character comes around by the end into kind of a hero with a good heart. And you know, it was a meat grinder. The generals really messed that one up.

[Julie Andrews]

It was. Yeah. But that's 1998. Did you say it's the late 90s around there?

[Kevin Ruane]

Yeah, late 90s. But it wasn't a really popular movie by then.

[Julie Andrews]

You do see war movies beginning to. Not all of them, but a number of them begin to embrace narratives that had not previously been dealt with. And. And you've. And you've given an example there. I do want to give you my anti World War II movie, 1964, in a moment because 1964, just 20 years on from D Day itself. It's not 50 years on. And 1964 is a point when triumphalism if that's the right word. The heroic narrative still, still prevails. But what about the idea? I'm going to get to that. I'm going to tantalize the listeners. Maybe we, we will get to this. And I'm going to tantalize the listeners even more. Do you like musicals?

[Kevin Ruane]

No. Yeah, you know, I appreciate it.

[Julie Andrews]

I'm not about oh, what a Lovely War. Where are you? I mean, if I play word association with an actress or an actor. Go ahead, Julie Andrews, what do you say?

[Kevin Ruane]

Sound the music.

[Martin DeCaro]

With the sound of Music.

[Julie Andrews]

And what else would you say?

[Kevin Ruane]

I don't have anything else.

[Julie Andrews]

Well, you. Most people who aren't you might say Mary Poppins.

[Kevin Ruane]

Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, I saw that one as a kid.

[Julie Andrews]

These huge Hollywood good musical production numbers. Anyway, I'm tantalizing people because Julie Andrews is part of, believe it or not, arguably, and I've seen it written somewhere, the movie from 1964, directed by Arthur Hiller, who was a Canadian. And where's the Canadian movies about D Day, given they had a whole beach to themselves and they've got their own heroic narrative to deal with and sacrifice and loss and death. But that's a different. That's a different question. These movies clearly reflect the popular mood in which they are made. Not just, you know, they're not just reflecting the time that they are conveying, they are reflecting the zeitgeist surrounding them. And I was struck by two versions of Shakespeare's Henry V, 1944 Lawrence Olivier vehicle. It's filmed in Ireland, as it happens. It deals with 1415 and let's call it an English expeditionary force finding itself vastly outnumbered on the European continent. But there it is, the Battle of Agincourt. 14:15 is won by the. The plucky but outnumbered English army, largely because of the brilliance of their. Of their longbowmen. So that's 1944. It's got a score. It's by the country's greatest playwright, it's got its greatest actor playing Henry V and it's got one of its greatest composers, William Walton, doing the score. Move forward. 1989, there's another version of it, and this one has got a young Kenneth Branagh playing Henry V. He directs it. And it's as near as, darn it, an anti war movie. It's an anti war version of the pro war version from 1944. And that's because Kenneth Branagh, I imagine he's about my age, he is a product of the Cold War. He's A product of Mutually Assured destruction and the absolute conviction in the nuclear age, there's no winners or losers. Everybody is a loser. There was no winners at all. That I thought was kind of zeitgeisty from about 1988, 89 as well. And so I think we need to be mindful of when these movies are made. Which makes my 1964 Arthur Hiller offering, when I get to it, really interesting because America is gearing up and LBJ has got a PR offensive over something called Vietnam. And it doesn't do well in the. In the box office, but wow.

[Kevin Ruane]

Well, I want to hear about it.

[Julie Andrews]

I'm still holding it back. Don't give them what they want until the very end. Got to keep your listeners with you. If somebody was to make a movie that was utterly faithful to Philip Caputo's Pulitzer Prize winning Rumor of War, which came out in the 70s and reflected. And it's just remarkable writing. It's a question for you. I mean, it's balanced. I mean, he says there was something about Vietnam and the conditions we found that would turn ordinary kids from, I don't know, Indiana or Iowa into killers whose instructions were to destroy the enemy body count were indicators of. Of success. And it didn't really matter what the bodies were, all those bad things that happened. It's a brilliant book. Could that be a brilliant movie? Yes, it could. But how would that be received in contemporary America? For example, now filmmakers want to fill bums on seats again. They want to have the cinema full, they want to make their money and then pile on with the profit. Movies can reflect the zeitgeist, but they can be frightened of the zeitgeist and therefore don't get made. I just wonder, got any comments on contemporary America and difficult, historically accurate renditions of America's recent past? How does that play with a rather divided America?

[Kevin Ruane]

I have to say Vietnam. I think a Vietnam movie, the way you explain that book would still, I think, be accepted because people still believe that Vietnam was a mistake. You know, the Afghanistan, Iraq War cinema. I mean, there's some of it out there. I'm not sure how the public would receive, say, a World War II movie showing the Pacific Theater where Americans routinely machine gun Japanese in the water, splashing around in the water after their ship sank. You know, that's an atrocity, but we don't want to think of our heroes that way. Atrocities are commonplace in all wars. I guess I danced around your question. Do war movies have to be accurate? You know, I know when I'm Watching. It's a movie. And sometimes it bothers me as long.

[Julie Andrews]

As you've got your critical antennae tuned in properly. But let's go right back. Let's go back to when would it be? The early 1990s. Oliver Stone's JFK, Oliver Stone's thesis, which was a man called John G. Newman's thesis. I think Newman wrote in one of his works, he said Kennedy knew in his heart that Vietnam was an unwinnable war. Now, when somebody writes something like that, I look for a footnote. Kennedy knew in his heart. Well, which ventricle? Left ventricle, right ventricle. Which bit of his heart did he know that in? But it fitted Oliver Stone. And Oliver Stone delivers this movie. And JFK gets assassinated for, you know, the Deep State is after him for Bay of Pigs. And the military industrial complex is in there because they're looking forward to a nice, low burning war in Vietnam and LBJ's involved in it. The problem is most of it is complete piffle and poppycock. It's preposterous. And yet that movie will reach millions more people than a good piece of well written, brilliantly researched, cogently argued history.

[Winston Churchill]

We've come to know it as the magic bullet theory. The magic bullet enters the President's back, headed downward at an angle of 17 degrees. It then moves upwards in order to leave Kennedy's body from the front of his neck wound number two. Two, where it waits 1.6 seconds, presumably in midair, where it turns right, then left. Right, then left.

[Julie Andrews]

Filmmakers who make films about history, speaking as a historian, I would say they have some obligation, some duty of care to get things as right as possible. But getting history as right as possible is not always consistent with giving people the cinematic thrills they need to keep going. Maybe I'm unfair as a historian expecting somebody in a completely different profession to abide by some of my codes of practice, but maybe a disclaimer along the way would be good.

[Kevin Ruane]

Yeah, well, you know, accuracy in the depiction of combat is one thing, right? And that's what Saving Private Ryan aims to do. It just shows you how horrifying it was to storm the beaches at Omaha and to see men machine gunned down before they had a chance. So that was something else. Full Metal Jacket, which is supposed to be an anti war movie. One of the final scenes, the charge of Animal Mother.

[Winston Churchill]

Let's go get him. Let's do it. Stand down, Mother. That's a direct order, you cowboys. All you.

[Kevin Ruane]

It was exhilarating. At least when I Saw that movie when I was younger, as a teenager. I found it so impressive. I don't think I came away from that movie as a teen or a young man saying, oh, what a horrible mistake was Vietnam. I was probably saying, we should have won that damn war. If only we had more brave men like Animal Mother on our side.

[Julie Andrews]

Yeah.

[Kevin Ruane]

So you can be exhilarated by a war movie. Well, we've, we've already established many, Many World War II movies are entertainment. They're adventure films.

[Julie Andrews]

1964 movie. It's called the Americanization of Emily. It is directed by Arthur Hiller, it stars James Garner, and it stars Julie Andrews. Julie Andrews. I believe I got this right. I think her first movie might well have been the Sound of Music. And then she was being lined up for Mary Poppins. And in between those two, Julie Andrews, who doesn't just sing, she's a really high quality actor. She opted for this role. The strap line. I viewed it yesterday. It's online. The strap line is Stop the war, I want to get off. It's, you know, one of those big banners, Stop the war. I want to get off. What's it all about? Interesting title. The Americanization of Emily. Well, it's set in England during the Second World War on the build up to D day. James Garner plays a naval aide to a member of the US Navy's top brass. But he is cynical, he's a rogue. He's not the stuff of heroes at all. He falls for a girl, he falls for Julie Andrews. And she is, she's in uniform, she's driving jeeps. That's one of the roles that women in the British army took on, I dare say in the US army as well. So she gets to meet him for that particular reason. He is, he calls himself to her, said, you know, don't think I'm anything other than I am. I am quite a practicing coward. That's what he calls himself. I'm a practicing coward. I don't want to get involved in this war. I don't want to die. And as a chat outline, that ought not to go very far with Julie Andrews, except that she's lost her father, her husband and her brother to this war already. One of the main themes of the movie is that cowardice can sometimes be a noble thing because the most tyrannical of all human instincts is self preservation. And Julie Andrews might not otherwise have been attracted to this guy, but she's had such terrible loss. She doesn't want to lose somebody else. And if she's going to have to hook up with a coward, then so be it. There's a lot of fun and games along the way. And his crazy naval boss says, I want the first dead American on Omaha beach to be a dead American sailor. Now you make that happen. Happen. And he sends poor hapless James Garner, who wades ashore on Omaha on D day with a film crew to try and of course it's Garner gets wounded, he becomes the hero. He's not a hero. He's kind of an anti hero.

[Winston Churchill]

I want them to know the whole shabby story about my heroism. Charlie, I don't understand you. Do you know what will happen if you know what'll happen? I'll embarrass my country, dishonor my service, disgrace my admiral and humiliate my family. And probably get thrown in the brig for a couple of years.

[Martin DeCaro]

Then why do it?

[Winston Churchill]

Because it's the right thing to do.

[Martin DeCaro]

I can't believe it. Is this the Charlie Madison who once said, God save us from all the people who do the right thing. It's the rest of us who get our backs broken. Are you seriously going to destroy everything that means anything to you, Charlie, in a futile gesture of virtue? And you're going to put yourself in jail, are you?

[Winston Churchill]

I don't care what happens to me.

[Martin DeCaro]

How bloody brave. But you do care what happens to me. At least you said you did. What am I supposed to do whilst you sit around in your prison cell for five or six years admiring the glisten of your own martyrdom?

[Winston Churchill]

Emily, I want the world to know what a fraud war is.

[Martin DeCaro]

But war isn't a fraud, Charlie. It's very real. At least that's what you've always tried to tell me, isn't it? That we shall never get rid of war by pretending it's unreal.

[Julie Andrews]

The movie is black, it's cynical, it's very funny. And it's been having done my homework, it's been mentioned in dispatches all over the place. And I didn't know about it until I did my research for this.

[Kevin Ruane]

I'll have to watch that.

[Julie Andrews]

It's in the vanguard of anti war movies. But it's anti world war. It's anti every war. But this is not what you would expect as early as 1964. And James Coburn's in it as well. One last thing, if you can credit things that are on the this thing called the World Wide Web that I believe is quite popular these days. Both Julie Andrews and James Garner are on record as saying it is one of Their favorite, if not their absolute favorite movies out of all the ones they've done. They both said that separately because they recognized retrospectively the importance of what it was trying to say about war.

[Martin DeCaro]

Here you are being brave and self sacrificing, positively clanking with moral fervor, perpetuating the very things you detest, merely to do the right thing. Honestly, Charlie, your conversion to morality is really quite funny. All this time I've been terrified of becoming Americanized, and you, you silly ass, have turned into a bloody Englishman.

[Winston Churchill]

Emily, there's a matter of principle involved here.

[Martin DeCaro]

A matter of what? Oh, Charlie, didn't you once say, what's a lion doing in a man's house?

[Julie Andrews]

Anyway, we talked about Longest Day, which I still think is a good film. Yes, we talked about the Americanization of Emily, which is on my list. I said I had six. Number three is Overlord from 1975. Saving Private Ryan has popped up all over the place, and rightly so. We mentioned Band of Brothers. I would mention two more. One was a TV movie which stars Magnum. Yes, it's Tom Selleck, but with his moustache completely eradicated. He's playing Eisenhower. It's called Ike Countdown to D Day. It's directed by an American, Robert Hart Common. And that's from 2004. There's not a lot of battlefield action. There's a lot of what I love the politics of War. But goodness me, does Tom Selleck do a job and a half on Eisenhower. I thought it was terrific. I have to watch that one, the last one. It's a very British movie because I think in Britain there's a sense that a lot of the big blockbusters that have come out of Hollywood in the last 25 years sort of airbrush the British role out of existence a little bit.

[Winston Churchill]

Bit.

[Julie Andrews]

But if anybody out there is interested, it's from 2023. It's called the Great Escaper, which is a bit of a play on the Great Escape, a great movie from the 1960s, but the great Escaper, it's based on a true story concerning a British member of the British Navy in 1944 called Bernard Jordan, who was part of the whole D Day thing. And in 2014, he was in a nursing home, a care home home. And he was not well enough. His doctors and the caregivers felt for him to go to Normandy to take Bart in the commemoration 2014. And you know what he did? He escaped. He escaped and he made his way to Normandy. Everybody was looking for him. It made kind of global news. And in this movie, in 2023, he is played by Michael Caine in what Michael Caine says is his last ever film. Michael Caine's wife, the Bernard Jordan wife character, was played by Glenda Jackson. And that was her last role. She died within a few months of making that movie. It is poignant, it is beautifully observed. It is about dealing with the past, past trauma, but it is also full of hope. I don't want to plot, spoil. Does he make it across? Well, of course he makes it across, but then he's going to encounter German veterans and that is some of the most moving stuff possible. And as a final scene where everybody in the nursing home rumbles where he's gone, they go to his wife, Glenda Jackson, and they say, we think he's gone to Normandy. We think he's gone to Normandy on his own. She says, well, he has been there before, she said, but last time there was a lot of people shooting at him. And there we are. Beautiful film, the Great Escaper.

[Kevin Ruane]

Well, I should watch that movie after my annual D Day tradition of watching the Longest Day on the next episode of History as It Happens, the economics of the Israeli Palestinian conflict. A story of how haves and have nots. But of course, it is more complicated than that. That is next, as we report History as it Happens. New episodes every Tuesday and Friday. My newsletter every Friday. Sign up at history as it happens.com.

[Winston Churchill]

SA.