History As It Happens – "Germany and the End of History"

Host: Martin Di Caro
Guest: Jeremy Suri, historian, LBJ School of Public Affairs, UT Austin
Date: October 17, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode delves into Germany’s post-1945 transformation from a nation associated with devastation and dictatorship into a linchpin of democracy and stability in Europe—and asks whether the return of war to the continent threatens to undo those achievements. Host Martin Di Caro speaks with historian Jeremy Suri about Germany’s identity crisis amid its reluctant remilitarization, the pressures of the Russia-Ukraine war, and the larger question of whether "the end of history" has truly ended for Europe.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Germany’s Postwar Success and Current Uncertainty

• Legacy of Transformation:
  • Germany rebuilt from "ideological extremism, hate and violence to one of the most peaceful countries in the center of Europe, one of the most prosperous countries" (Jeremy Suri, 11:54).
  • US played a crucial role, but Germans themselves largely responsible for their transformation.
• Unprecedented Prosperity:
  • Post-1960 Germans lived in a security, prosperity, and democracy unmatched in prior generations.
• Current Identity Crisis:
  • The Ukraine war “has gone so far that many people forget the work that went into it and forget that it can be undone” (Suri, 12:58).
  • With the US reducing its support for Ukraine, Germany faces pressure to rearm—a significant reversal for a nation consciously anti-militarist since WWII.

2. The Dilemma of Rearmament

• Rearming Germany:
  • Germany is dramatically raising military spending, reintroducing talk of conscription (abolished 15 years ago), and delivering advanced weapons systems to Ukraine (8:13, defense official).
  • Suri: “Germany now has to militarize its society as it has not before” (13:50).
• Fears and Resistance:
  • Germans worry a militarized society threatens both their democracy and prosperity.
  • Many Germans equate increased militarism with risks of repeating history’s darker chapters.

3. Public Opinion and Political Paradox

• Unexpected Political Alignments:
  • The Left, historically anti-military, now leads calls for greater military spending (20:22).
  • Far-right party AfD, surprisingly, is pro-Russian and opposes military build-up—not out of pacifism, but as a crude anti-Western gesture; they draw support from those fearing cuts to social programs.
• Cultural Aversion to Militarism:
  • Germany's sensitivity to its violent past is profound. As Suri puts it:

    “When you emphasize force, that has a cultural effect in your society, particularly when you have a history of being a militarized society…There are things in our society [USA] that they don't like that they associate with Militarism, gun culture, vigilante violence, all of that is not acceptable in their society. We see it every day in our society. They don't want to go that route.” (22:45)

4. Shadow of Russia and War Anxiety

• Direct and Indirect Threats:
  • Concerns over Russian drones disrupting flights and infrastructure, not hypothetical but real (17:53).
  • “They're expecting it in Berlin. …more insecure than I think Germans have felt since the Cuban Missile Crisis.” (17:53)
• The Real Challenge:
  • “I don't think the German worry is that they're going to [be] conquered by Russia. The German worry is that they are going to be interfered with, that they're going to be terrorized by Russia.” (19:02)

5. The Burden and Lessons of History

• A Model for Reckoning with the Past:
  • Germany—while imperfect—has been notably effective at confronting its Nazi past ("They have done a very good job," Suri, 22:08).
  • Success built on deliberate, hard-won memory politics and democratic consolidation.
• The Dilemma:
  • Increased military posture feels to many Germans like a betrayal of their hard-won identity as a peaceful nation (22:45).

6. Return of Authoritarian Threats – Internal and External

• European Populism:
  • Germans, and many Europeans, perceive populist authoritarian threats not just from outside (Russia), but from within—right-wing parties, democratic decay (25:42).
• Shift in Worldview:
  • "There was a faith…that the direction of the world was naturally toward democracy…now actually most Europeans think the direction of the world is toward authoritarianism." (24:42)

7. Fragmented European Defense Efforts

• Lack of Coordination:
  • Germany, France, Britain, others all increasing defense spending and production often in uncoordinated, incompatible ways (29:05).
  • Suri notes this duplication and inefficiency, sometimes even hampering the support for Ukraine.
• The NATO Question:
  • Debate on American leadership and European dependency—if US left NATO, would the alliance (and German restraint) collapse? Suri argues continued US involvement is crucial.

8. Preserving Democracy While Responding to History's Return

• "Revenge of History":
  • Suri's main message is not to avoid all militarization, but to insist it happens with democratic safeguards and historical awareness (34:23).
  • "History is like archaeology. The old layers don't go away, they're still there. …What I'm making a plea for is that we learn from history and take some lessons and don't make it an either-or. Germany will have to militarize more…but …in a way that preserves what it achieved as a democracy, not simply what is militarily expeditious." (34:23)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Postwar German Identity:

  “It goes from ideological extremism, hate and violence to one of the most peaceful countries in the center of Europe, one of the most prosperous countries, one of the countries most committed to the United States and to the defense of Western societies against communism.”
  — Jeremy Suri (11:54)

• On Militarization and Democracy:

  “Balancing military needs and democratic needs, it's always very difficult. And the Germans don't have experience with that.”
  — Jeremy Suri (13:50)

• On American Criticism of Europe:

  “I regret the use of the term infantilesation…because I think that's condescending American garbage to say that.”
  — Jeremy Suri (14:43)

• On German Fears:

  “They're expecting [Russian drone interference] in Berlin. …They're feeling very insecure, more insecure than I think Germans have felt since the Cuban Missile Crisis.”
  — Jeremy Suri (17:53)

• On Left-Right Realignment:

  “The far right party is pro Russian…They're attracting people not for a pro Russian position. They're attracting people because of the domestic costs.”
  — Jeremy Suri (20:44)

• Historical Lessons:

  “They have done a very good job…they've done a lot better [than the United States dealing with the legacy of slavery] though not perfect.”
  — Jeremy Suri (22:08)

• On Militarism’s Cultural Risks:

  “When you emphasize violence and you emphasize force, that has a cultural effect in your society, particularly when you have a history of being a militarized society.”
  — Jeremy Suri (22:45)

• Pendulum of History:

  “There was a faith…that the direction of the world was naturally toward democracy…now actually most Europeans think the direction of the world is toward authoritarianism. And they're holding the line…against a Putin, Orban, Trump authoritarianism.”
  — Jeremy Suri (24:42)

• On the “Revenge of History”:

  “History is like archaeology. The old layers don't go away, they're still there. …what I'm arguing is not that we can go back…[but that] we learn from history and take some lessons and don't make it an either or.”
  — Jeremy Suri (34:23)

Important Timestamps

• 01:19 – Context: Russia’s war, German air defense, rallying NATO.
• 02:22 – Suri: Germany’s anti-war identity and the challenge of integrating military activity with democracy.
• 03:44 – Historical background: Lucius Clay’s remarks on postwar Germany, memory of Nazism.
• 06:35 – Berlin Wall falls; Germany’s reunification; “end of history” era.
• 11:14–14:12 – Germany’s postwar turn, identity crisis, and current militarization debate.
• 17:53 – Modern German fears: Russian drones, interference, insecurities.
• 19:02 – German anxieties not about conquest, but terror, sabotage.
• 20:22 – Political paradox: Left drives rearmament, right (AfD) supports Russia.
• 22:45 – Aversion to militarization and fear of “betraying” historical progress.
• 24:42 – Return of authoritarian threats; end-of-history optimism fading.
• 29:05 – Fragmented European defense, lack of coordination.
• 34:23 – Suri on “the revenge of history” and learned lessons.
• 35:14 – Dependency on Russian gas—lesson from Merkel era.
• 37:23 – Post-1990s achievements; why the present moment feels so fragile.
• 38:20 – Democratic progress and stagnation.
• 39:55 (Outro tease) – Next episode: Hannah Arendt and the legacy of totalitarianism.

Conclusion

Germany and the End of History thoughtfully explores how historical memory and present-day crises are reshaping Germany’s—and Europe’s—future. The war in Ukraine has forced an uncomfortable reckoning: Can Germany safeguard its democratic identity while remilitarizing to meet new threats? The conversation is rich in historical perspective, offering listeners a nuanced take on the dilemmas facing a nation (and a continent) once thought to have moved beyond history, now discovering that history—with all its weight and warnings—never truly ends.