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- [00:00]
Jeff
Morning Zoe. Got donuts.
- [00:02]
Zoe
Jeff Bridges why are you still living above our garage?
- [00:05]
Jeff
Well I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T mobile commercial like you teach me.
- [00:11]
Zoe
So Dana oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at T Mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.
- [00:24]
Jeff
Wow, impressive. Let me try. T mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.
- [00:31]
Libsyn Ads Host
Nice.
- [00:32]
Zoe
Je free.
- [00:32]
Martin
You heard them.
- [00:33]
Jeff
T mobile is the best place to.
- [00:35]
Kevin Levin
Get the new iPhone 17 Pro on.
- [00:37]
Jeff
Us with eligible traded in any condition. So what are we having for lunch?
- [00:42]
Zoe
Dude, my work here is done.
- [00:44]
T-Mobile Announcer
The 24 month bill credit on experience beyond for well qualified customers + tax and 35 device connection charge credit send and balance due if you pay off earlier Cancel Finance Agreement. IPhone 17 Pro 256 gigs 1099.99 A new line minimum 100 plus a month plan with auto pay plus taxes and fees required Best mobile network in the US based on analysis by Oklahoma Speed Test Intelligence Data 182025 Visit t mobile.com.
- [01:00]
Martin
History as it happens September 17, 1862, the American Civil War's bloodiest day. More than 20,000 men were killed or wounded near Antietam Creek as Union armies under General George McClellan ended the Confederate invasion of Maryland, a battle captured vividly in the opening scenes of Glo. Edward Zwick's 1989 film was about Robert Gould Shaw in the 54th Massachusetts Infantry Regiment, one of the first black units to fight for the Union. The movie begins with the actor Matthew Broderick, who plays Shaw, narrating a letter the Union officer supposedly sent his mother before the battle.
- [01:56]
Matthew Broderick (voice)
Dear Mother, I hope you are keeping well and not worrying too much about me. You mustn't think that any of us are going to be killed, for they are collecting such a force here that an attack would be insane. The Massachusetts men passed through here this morning. How grand it is to meet the men from all the states east and west down here, ready to fight for their country as the old fellows did in the revolution. But this time we must make it a whole country for all who live here, so that all can speak. Before this war began, many of my regiment had never seen a Negro. But now the roads are choked with the dispossessed. We fight for men and women whose poetry is not yet written, but which will presently be as enviable and as renowned as any.
- [02:51]
Martin
Well, I did not know this letter never existed. It's an invention of the filmmaker. I found this out because I follow the historian Kevin Levin on Substack in the Civil War Memory newsletter, Levin notes that when you Google, did Robert Gould Shaw say, we fight for men and women whose poetry is not yet written? The AI search results will say, yes, he did. Well, as far as we know, he did not. So why does this matter? Why am I talking about a movie that came out 36 years ago? Well, today Americans seem to be at odds with one another about everything, and that includes our origin stories, our past, as Levin's been writing about all year. The Trump administration is trying to erase our history in the name of stamping out WOKE or dei. But it would be impossible to make a movie like Glory if you take such a MAGA approach to telling the nation's story. Now, Glory is not a perfect film. It does have inaccuracies, but it is an important film nonetheless. When I saw it as a teenager, I learned for the first time that the 54th Massachusetts existed. And my favorite scene is still when the black soldiers on the night before they assault Fort Wagner pray for deliverance.
- [04:22]
Matthew Broderick (voice)
Lord.
- [04:24]
Denzel Washington (voice)
We stand before you this evening to say thank you. We thank you, Father, for your grace and your many blessings. Now I run off and left all my youngins and my kinfolk in bondage. So I'm standing here this evening, Heavenly Father, to ask your blessings on all of us.
- [04:49]
Martin
Talk to him. Amen.
- [04:50]
Denzel Washington (voice)
So that if tomorrow is our great getting up morning, if tomorrow we have to meet the Judgment Day, Heavenly Father, we want you to let our folks know that we died facing the enemy. We want them to know that we went down standing up amongst those that are fighting against our pressure. We want them to know, Heavenly Father, that we died for freedom.
- [05:21]
Jeff
We ask these blessings in Jesus name. Amen.
- [05:40]
Martin
Glory starred Matthew Broderick as Robert Gould Shaw and Morgan Freeman, Denzel Washington and Andre Brower among the black soldiers who enlisted in the 54th. As Levin wrote for a substack, you'll find next to nothing in Shaw's wartime correspondence that reflects the thoughts about slavery and the purpose of the war. In that fictional letter, Shaw came into contact with hundreds of enslaved people during his time with the second Massachusetts in Virginia and Maryland. But that had little if any impact on his view of the war. Much of what he had to say about African Americans was laced with racist references and a paternalism that was typical of elite Northern men. Early in the war, Shaw was preoccupied with issues like discipline among the rank and file and especially in securing a promotion in rank. All of this will be explored in Levin's forthcoming biography, A Glorious the Life and Legacy of Colonel Robert Gould Shaw. It'll be out next year. Our conversation next. But remember, you don't have to listen to any more ads or sales pitches. Plus you can get bonus content and access to my Entire catalog of 500 episodes. Tap subscribe now in the Show Notes or go to historyasithappens.supercast.com support the work of bringing the past to light. And when you subscribe, you can continue listening to history as it happens right where you listen to it now. It is easy and Supercast will guide you through the simple process. Kevin Levin, welcome back.
- [07:05]
Kevin Levin
Great to be here, Martin.
- [07:06]
Martin
You know I've been doing really serious depressing subjects. Not that the American Civil War is not a serious and depressing subject, but I wanted to do something about movies history in the movies again. Your post about Robert Gould Shaw and the opening scene of the great movie glory from 1989, that post caught my eye, said what a great opportunity to revisit movies history accuracy. So I did not know this. The Shaw letter. Well, the letter that you hear Matthew Broderick, who plays Colonel Shaw, then Captain Shaw, the letter you hear him narrate at the beginning of the movie doesn't exist.
- [07:43]
Matthew Broderick (voice)
We fight for men and women whose poetry is not yet written but which will presently be as enviable and as renowned as any. Last night we heard of yet another defeat, but we are not disheartened. I am honored to be part of such a splendid company. They have made me captain of which I am enormously proud. You would think it strange to see me giving orders to a hundred men, most of whom are older than I am. Thank you for sending my volume of Emerson. His words come home to me like truth. A deep man, he says, believes that the evil eye can wither, that the heart's blessing can heal, and that love can overcome all odds. My dearest love to father, your son Robert.
- [08:39]
Martin
Give us the background.
- [08:40]
Kevin Levin
Yeah, so I mean Glory came out in 1989 and to me it is still one of the best Civil War movies. It tells a fascinating and important story about then Captain Robert Gould Shaw, soon to be Colonel Robert Gould Shaw of the first black regiment raised in the north in 1863. But the movie opens in 1862. There's an opening scene, really well done that's set at the Battle of Antietam in September of 1862. And as the movie's getting started, the first thing you see is a notice that Shaw's letters are kept in the library at Harvard University, which is true. And then you hear, in obviously Matthew Broderick's voice, one of these letters that Shaw writes home to his mother, and he's sort of waxing poetic about confronting large numbers of fugitive slaves or freedom seekers. The letter sort of frames Shaw as this officer whose goal, whose purpose in the war is eradicating slavery. And the problem, of course, is that the letter is a fantasy. The letter is. The letter is not included in any archive that I've seen.
- [09:50]
Martin
Well, you have a book coming out about Shaw, so you would know.
- [09:53]
Kevin Levin
Yes. And although there are aspects of that letter that do ring true, the confronting or coming across large numbers of fugitive slaves. Shaw certainly did during his time in Virginia and Maryland in 1861 and 1862. But the idea of Shaw as some emancipationist, someone who is primarily fighting the war to end slavery, it's obviously much more complicated than that.
- [10:18]
Martin
Yeah. So in the movie, he says, again, narrating from this fictitious letter, before this war began, many of my regiment had never seen a Negro. Well, that sounds plausible. And now the roads are choked with the dispossessed. We fight for men and women whose poetry is not yet written, but which will presently be as enviable and as renowned as any. So, yeah, it makes him out to be, if not a modern, progressive civil rights activist, maybe more progressive on the issues of race and slavery than he actually was. So let's talk a little bit about Robert Gouldshaw then, because this was an important movie, not just cinematically, but socially.
- [10:57]
Kevin Levin
Yes.
- [10:58]
Martin
Shaw was from an important family in Boston. His parents were abolitionists. What were his views on these matters?
- [11:05]
Kevin Levin
Shaw was, you know, he was born in 1837, during the 1850s, as the debate over slavery is really heating up, he spends the first half in Europe, so he's not even in the United States. In the second half, he's studying at Harvard. And certainly the issue of slavery is a prominent issue on campus. But Shaw never really takes an interest in the debate over westward expansion, slavery. He is focused on his own future. He is trying to figure out his career. He contemplates joining the Army. He contemplates moving out west to become a farmer. He's trying to figure it out for himself. He leaves Harvard a year early, Never graduates in 1859, and tries moving to New York City to work in the family business, which also fails miserably. It just so happens that the war comes and he does join. He's not an ideologue. He never writes anything that is clear in terms of his own view about the Union, the war as a whole. He's very much a pragmatist. But he does want to take part. He doesn't want to miss the opportunity to join the Army. And his views evolve a bit over the course of the war. But again, he is much more concerned with promotion once he's in the army, he's much more concerned about making his mark, if you will. That doesn't make him unusual, but it certainly stands in contrast with the image, I think, that many people have of Shaw that's pushed by the movie Glory in part.
- [12:36]
Martin
Your remarks there remind me of a book James McPherson wrote some years ago, something like why Soldiers Fight. So it sounds like Shaw was not particularly political, but he must have been a Unionist at some level, right?
- [12:51]
Kevin Levin
Yeah, I think that's safe to say. I mean, there are enough moments in his letters. And remember, he's writing letters home to his mother, father and sister, and they are hardcore abolitionists. His parents are devoted to the abolitionist movement, and that creates a lot of tension between parent and son and even between brother and sister. So he certainly has his moments where, you know, he expresses a kind of pro Union sentiment. But that's a very different view from the sort of abolitionist take that many people have embraced about him.
- [13:25]
Martin
So what does he see then as the purpose of the war? You know, because my friend Jim Oaks would say it was a war to save the Union, but not just any Union, a Union without slavery. The Republican Party was trying to end slavery, and during the war, that impulse was radicalized, and you start to see more aggressive action against the institution of slavery where Lincoln and the Republicans and the Union army can attack it. They made it clear before the war started that this would happen should the south secede. All right, sorry. Long intro there, Kevin.
- [13:59]
Kevin Levin
No, I think that's a really good point.
- [14:01]
Martin
What were Shaw's views on slavery then?
- [14:03]
Kevin Levin
So Shaw, of course, like most Union soldiers, has never experienced slavery directly. Even living in a neighborhood in Boston where there's a black neighborhood, a vibrant black neighborhood just a few blocks away, there's little evidence that he had any direct interaction with African Americans in Boston. So like many Union soldiers going into Maryland, Virginia, this is their first experience. He writes home about coming across African Americans, fugitive slaves, but his language is very paternalistic. You know, he somewhat sympathizes with the people that he confronts. He never sort of shifts to, this is why we're fighting this war. In fact, what's so interesting is one of the last letters he writes at the end of 1862, late December 62, he's so frustrated, and he writes to his parents. He says that Lincoln. He says Lincoln has perhaps gone insane and he is willing to consider the possibility of ending the war. Confederate defeat, but slavery intact and somehow kept from expanding westward. So Even in late 1862, Shaw is still considering the possibility that the war could end. He'd be perfectly, you know, fine with this. The war can end with Confederate defeat and slavery still intact, which is quite remarkable that late in the war.
- [15:21]
Martin
So the film is not a very political film. I still find it really moving. It's scintillating. The battle scenes at the end. Horrifying, really. Some of the best depictions of Civil War battles on the big screen that I can remember.
- [15:34]
Kevin Levin
I agree. I agree.
- [15:35]
Martin
Broderick is terrific. You know, he's not playing an abolitionist on screen. They don't make the cinematic Shaw a raving abolitionist or even, you know, a committed abolitionist. However, there's dialogue throughout the movie, not just this opening letter that implies, or not just implies, states that the war is being fought for black freedom. How did you feel about how they depicted that part of it?
- [15:58]
Kevin Levin
I think what the movie tends to do, and the movie is based on a book that came out in the 1960s, I think our tendency is to see everything that happens to Shaw before he takes command of this black regiment as a precursor. That there's a kind of teleology in all of this. Everything is leading right toward this goal. Right. This is his destiny, if you will. And I think that leaves out a lot of contingency in history, which, of course, is so important to acknowledge that events can take any number of directions. And certainly that's the case with shaw's trajectory between 1861 and 1863. Our tendency has always been, although I think you're right, the movie doesn't sort of frame Shaw as this kind of emancipationist. Right. But of course, that last scene where he's being buried with his soldiers, which is accurate, his black soldiers. And then that still shot of the burning, beautiful Augustus St. Gaudin's memorial of Shaw and his soldiers marching in Boston, that's the last thing you see. And so the movie's message is very clear, that this is what he had always been working toward. His life has become complete and the sacrifice has become complete. Not just Shaw's sacrifice, but the sacrifice of the soldiers he's in command of and the broader nation itself. That's comforting as A Hollywood movie that is the story from slavery to freedom, in essence, that Hollywood is trying to capture and celebrate. That's the Hollywood version. History is, as you well know, much more complicated.
- [17:27]
Martin
Well, as you said earlier, his views on race and slavery were different than those that were depicted on the big screen. I can see why Hollywood did not want to portray him more realistically. They want him to be a more sympathetic hero, a champion of black freedom, which, as you said, he really wasn't. But he did have to believe in something, and he was rather brave, if the movie is accurate. He volunteers to lead the assault with his unit on Fort Wagner at the end. But before we get to the end, why don't we just go back to the beginning? Here he returns from Antietam. He's back home in Boston. In the movie, his parents basically announce at this party, oh, we want you to lead the colored troops, as they put it, the 54th Massachusetts. And you can be a colonel. You'll be the leader. Broderick leaves the party, goes outside, takes a deep breath. You could see that he's conflicted about this. He's dealing with his own fears and insecurities about taking a command like that. He didn't really have a marshal or military background. I'm not even sure if he was a really good commander in the field, a military tactician. So tell us the real story about what happened here.
- [18:34]
Kevin Levin
Yeah. So Shaw is offered command by the Governor of Massachusetts in late January, well, early February of 1818 63. So the movie setting all of this in 1862, in the aftermath of Antietam is inaccurate. But that's a minor problem. It was Shaw's father, Frank Shaw, who actually had to come to Virginia. The second Massachusetts, in which Shaw was a member, was stationed in Virginia in early 63. And so he doesn't get word of this offer at home, on leave. He's actually in camp. And at first he does refuse command. It's difficult to piece together exactly why. I did my best in my research. I think he's worried about whether or not commanding black soldiers, which would be a new step for Shaw, a new step for the country, would actually pan out, would be. Would lead to a favorable result, I think Shaw certainly harbors what we would recognize as racist views for, you know, most mid 19th century men. White men.
- [19:33]
Martin
Yeah. About the capabilities of black soldiers.
- [19:36]
Kevin Levin
Right, Sure. I mean, absolutely. The racism, of course, for that time, is very difficult to get over. The idea that African Americans have both the physical and moral courage to engage in army Life is a real question. I think Shaw embraces that. He does not want to gamble his military career away. He's considered a number of opportunities to further his military career and advance in rank. And so I think that's his primary concern. But I will say that once he does agree to it, and his mother is incredibly relieved, she's very embarrassed at first when he rejects the offer. But once he does agree, he is fully immersed in the process. It's important to remember Shaw was only in command of this regiment for about six months. He's in the army if you count his brief one month service with the 7th New York militia since really roughly the spring of 1861. But he's not in command of black soldiers until February of 1863. And of course, his life ends in the middle of July of that year.
- [20:38]
Martin
Yeah, was not a long stint running that regiment. Regiment. Is that the right way of putting it?
- [20:43]
Kevin Levin
Yeah, absolutely.
- [20:44]
Martin
Yeah. The 54th Massachusetts, who lost so many of their men dead and wounded in the final battle there. So was he a good battlefield commander? I mean, he's an officer. I assume he was an officer because of his social standing.
- [20:58]
Kevin Levin
That's right. He's commissioned as an officer because of his social rank. No question about that. Nothing unusual in terms of his competence. You know, he does see fighting at some brutal battlefields in the Shenandoah Valley in April of 62. More notably, two battles. The battles at Cedar Mountain, August 10, 1862, in Virginia and Antietam. He's a captain. He's in command of, you know, roughly 100 people. He is absolutely fanatical about discipline in his company and the regiment and the army as a whole. If there's one theme that courses throughout his letters, I think that must have frustrated his parents more than anything else was his preoccupation with discipline and the need for punishment. Corporal punishment whenever necessary.
- [21:43]
Martin
I remember seeing the opening scene, the Battle of Antietam, when my high school history teacher showed us that movie, either in 89 or shortly after that. And I remember being horrified by it. I think he even tried to fast forward through part of that battle when somebody gets his head blown off by a cannonball. So, yes, anyone who participated in those battles had to have some level of physical courage when you're walking straight into a fusillade. Yeah.
- [22:24]
Kevin Levin
If any of your viewers know the Battle of Antietam, 2nd Massachusetts fought through the cornfield early morning September 17th, along the Hagerstown pike, roughly in an hour. Less than an hour's fighting, you're talking roughly 8,9000 men are lying dead or wounded on that small area of the battlefield.
- [22:41]
Martin
So glory then mostly gets it right. I mean, in any historical film, they're going to condense time, they're going to condense characters. Maybe they have to invent some dialogue, right, and try to make it period relevant, period specific and convincing. I mean, our sensibilities have changed, of course, over the past 35 years. Maybe some of the script writing, some of the racial language in the movie, maybe that would still be included today. I'm not sure. I did notice, Kevin, when I went to rent the movie and stream it, I had the choice of choosing the edited version that would not have the N word in it.
- [23:17]
Denzel Washington (voice)
The whole world got a stomp in your face. Nigga, you better get your hands off me. Ain't no niggas around here, you hear me? Oh, I see. So the white man give you a couple of stripes. Next thing you know, you hollering, ordering everybody around like you the master himself. Nigga, you ain't nothing but the white man's dog. And what are you? So full of hatred, just want to go out and fight everybody. Cause you've been whipped and chased by hounds. Well, that might not be living, but it sure as hell ain't dying. And dying is what these white boys been doing for going on three years now. Dying by their thousands. Dying for you, fool. I know. Cause I dug the graves. And all the time I'm digging, I'm asking myself, when, when, oh, Lord's gonna be our time? Well, time's coming when we're gonna have to ante up, ante up and kick in like men. Like men. You watch who you call a nigger, Then the niggers around here, it's you. Smart mouth, stupid ass, swamp running nigger. You ain't careful, that's all you ever gonna be.
- [24:18]
Martin
I did not choose the edited version. The art should not be sanitized. How did you feel about the dialogue, the screenplay?
- [24:25]
Kevin Levin
I think the movie holds up incredibly well after 35 years. And as a former high school teacher, 20 plus years, I showed that movie all the time. Of course, I taught my students how to think about Hollywood movies along the way. Some of the critics, of course, panned it as a kind of white savior movie. And I think there are elements of that in the movie. And so perhaps today, more of the backstory, the black characters, perhaps we would learn a bit more about them. They would come out from the shadows perhaps a bit more than they do. I think certainly some of them are composite characters. I think the dialogue overall works. And I think, look, Hollywood chose to tell a slavery to freedom story. One of the things that's really important to remember is the vast majority of the recruits, the rank and file of the 54th, are not former slaves. They are free blacks from across the North. And that's really important because in terms of where they're coming from, their occupations, whether they can read or not, their level of education, we have a number of really good written accounts from soldiers in the 54th. So that stands in contrast with what you would have found in regiments raised within the Confederate South.
- [25:38]
Martin
We should note that this regiment was put together because of the Emancipation Proclamation after Antietam, which was considered enough of a Union victory. So, yeah, you get, what, four or five black characters in the film. I do think glory is important for this reason. I think it does center African American characters and actors more so maybe than in past movies. Morgan Freeman, I think he plays a runaway. Denzel Washington won an Oscar. He plays a runaway. There's another Jupiter, his first name, the character, the actor's name is Jupiter Sharks. Yeah, he's a runaway. But Thomas Sarls, who's played by Andrew Brower, the late Andre Brauer, he is a free black man. As he says to Denzel Washington early in the film, I'm a free man, as my father was before me. He was reading sophisticated literature in the tent while Denzel Washington is thinking about, you know, how can I get off the campgrounds to go find myself a pair of shoes for which he is whipped when he is caught. That was a really powerful scene.
- [26:39]
Kevin Levin
The scene he wins the Oscar for.
- [26:41]
Matthew Broderick (voice)
Sergeant Mulcahy. You may commence.
- [26:57]
Kevin Levin
You mentioned, of course, the lack of shoes and takes a while for the regiment to get their uniforms and their weapons. This is a regiment that doesn't lack for anything, you know, rifles, clothing. They are sleeping in dry barracks just outside of Boston. This is the brainchild of Governor John Andrew, who has been pleading with Lincoln to allow him to raise black regiments from the very beginning of the war. So this is. This is a regiment that lacks for nothing.
- [27:23]
Martin
All right, so that was all baloney in the movie, then, about.
- [27:25]
Kevin Levin
Oh, that's all baloney. And even the scene of the whipping scene. Whipping had been outlawed by the army by that point. But that's an attempt. Again, that's a crucial scene in the movie narrative because it's another moment. Remember, the movie is trying to sort of show Shaw becoming more connected with the cause of the men under his command. So it succeeds in that regard, it's also playing up, of course, the difficult relations between the Irish, represented by the Irish Drill Sergeant Mulcahy, and these African American recruits, which was certainly the case. It should be pointed out that Shaw despised the Irish. If you read Shaw's letters, he wastes no time early in the war to denigrate the Irish recruits in his letters home. So that's missed in the movie, but it comes out very clearly in his letters.
- [28:13]
Martin
Wow. So, yeah, Shaw, Matthew Broderick, fights like hell to get shoes, uniforms, rifles, equal pay. So let me ask you about that scene. They finally get their pay and Broderick goes up on the stage or wherever he was, the platform in front of the regiment, and calls out to them, because you're a colored regiment. I've learned this morning you're only going to get $10 a month instead of $13 a month. True or false?
- [28:37]
Kevin Levin
True, true. And the scene overall is grounded in the history. Take away another $3, however, because black regiments have to pay $3 a month for their uniform upkeep, so they're being paid roughly half what white soldiers are being paid on a monthly basis. Remember, many of these black soldiers are coming from families that are desperately poor. The primary provider is no longer there, so these families depend on this salary. What happens is black regiments, including the 54th, the 55th and others, they protest their pay. And this protest actually lasts roughly from late summer 1863 through the summer, early summer of 1864, even after Governor John Andrew, for the black regiments from Massachusetts, offers to pay the difference of what the federal government will not pay. And black soldiers in these regiments refuse his offer. If the federal government's not going to pay us what they promised, we're not going to accept anything. Now, that scene is a little inaccurate because when the protest starts, Shaw's already dead. So that's inaccurate.
- [29:44]
Martin
Yeah, because he tears up his pay stub, too.
- [29:47]
Kevin Levin
Yes.
- [29:47]
Martin
He says, if you're not going to take money, then the white officers here who are leading you are not going to take the money either. Okay. He was dead.
- [29:53]
Kevin Levin
Again, Shaw becoming closer, bonded with his soldiers. Right.
- [29:57]
Martin
Yeah. And the character that leads the protest is Denzel Washington, who, as I mentioned. Yeah, he plays the runaway Trip, who was the defiant one of the group.
- [30:06]
Denzel Washington (voice)
I mean, a color soldier stop a bullet just as good as a white one and for less money, too. Yeah, yeah. Uncle A got himself a real bargain here. Hey, what you say, Bar? That's right, slaves, step right up. Make your mark. Get your slave wage. All you good Colored boys go ahead and sign up. That's a tear up. If you men will take no pay.
- [30:32]
Martin
Then none of us will. And there's a scene after their first battlefield engagement afterward where Shaw goes over to Trip. He's standing by himself near a lake, reflecting on the battle they fought that day. And Shaw offers or asks him if he'd be willing to carry the regimental colors, carry the flag into battle. This is a very modern conversation projected back into time. But you'll tell me if this has any basis in reality. Trip says, if we win. Meaning if our side wins. You know you'll win, Colonel Shaw. But what. What are my people gonna get? There's no winning for us here.
- [31:14]
Denzel Washington (voice)
I ain't fighting this war for you, sir.
- [31:22]
Matthew Broderick (voice)
I see.
- [31:24]
Denzel Washington (voice)
I mean, what's the point? Ain't nobody gonna win. It's just gonna go on and on.
- [31:30]
Matthew Broderick (voice)
Can't go on forever.
- [31:31]
Denzel Washington (voice)
Yeah, but ain't nobody gonna win, sir.
- [31:33]
Matthew Broderick (voice)
Somebody's gonna win.
- [31:37]
Denzel Washington (voice)
Who? I mean, you. You get to going back to Boston, big house and all that. What about us? What do we get?
- [31:55]
Matthew Broderick (voice)
Well, you won't get anything if we lose. What do you want to do?
- [32:05]
Denzel Washington (voice)
I don't know, sir.
- [32:08]
Matthew Broderick (voice)
Stinks, I suppose.
- [32:10]
Denzel Washington (voice)
Yeah, stinks bad. And we all covered up in it, too. I mean, ain't nobody clean. Be nice to get clean, though.
- [32:27]
Martin
How do we do that?
- [32:31]
Matthew Broderick (voice)
We.
- [32:32]
Denzel Washington (voice)
Auntie helped him kick in, sir. But I still don't want to carry your flag, Martin.
- [32:40]
Kevin Levin
I think that is, for me, as someone who's interested in memory of the Civil War, it's one of the more powerful scenes. I love that scene. And I think first, it speaks to the complexity of. Of motivation behind black soldiers. This idea that they're all joining for the very same reason. To raise up the flag and create a reimagined union right in which all African Americans enjoy equal rights with white Americans. I think it speaks to the future. It speaks to the questions that the nation is going to have to address in a reunited nation. What are the consequences of victory?
- [33:18]
Martin
Yeah. I felt like it was the character seeing into the future.
- [33:22]
Kevin Levin
Yeah.
- [33:23]
Martin
Well, of course, we do get the 13th, 14th, 15th amendments, the abolition of slavery. An event of world historical importance. But.
- [33:31]
Kevin Levin
But they don't know that at that point.
- [33:33]
Martin
That's right. You almost can sense Denzel Washington is almost saying his character. Well, Reconstruction gets destroyed and we have to wait until the 1960s to actually get equal rights. I mean, that's almost what he's saying there. But in a more immediate sense, the 13th Amendment is still two years out.
- [33:49]
Kevin Levin
Yeah, that's right. There's a real question of whether the war is going to go in the way of the United States. Victory is in no way a guarantee. Right. Gettysburg is what, early July of 63. The victory at Vicksburg. These are significant victories, but no one really sees them as major turning points. Lee's army is still very much intact. What happens out west with Grant's victory, we still don't know in the summer of 1863. So there are a lot of questions that still need to be answered.
- [34:18]
Martin
Yeah. Was it true that the 54th was never supposed to be allowed to fight in a battle? I mean, that's a tension in the movie. They're just being used for manual labor.
- [34:28]
Kevin Levin
Yeah. There are certainly officers who would prefer to relegate them to manual labor. But along the Seacoast Islands, because of the nature of the fighting, because of the operations that the military is engaged in, there are opportunities for these units to fight. Right. I mean, as the movie gets right, the 54th is not the only black regiment fighting in this area. You have that scene, the Burning of Darien, in which Shaw's 54th accompanies a black regiment under the command of James Montgomery. Another black regiment, commanded by Thomas Wentworth Higginson, is operating along the Seacoast Islands. And then, of course, the campaign to take Charleston. You know, the Union military needs all of the men available.
- [35:08]
Martin
And so.
- [35:08]
Kevin Levin
So Shaw has to jockey to get his men included in an assault, but.
- [35:13]
Martin
He'S able to do it because in the film, he has to charge into the commanding officer's office and confront him with allegations of corruption. And, you know, I'll go public with this unless you let my men fight. That's fictitious.
- [35:25]
Kevin Levin
Just nonsense.
- [35:26]
Martin
Okay. Yeah, that did sound to me. And the whipping scene as well. Those two struck me the last time I watched it the other day. This is an unnecessary invention. And we'll get to the question of whether movies need to be accurate so they are allowed to fight and Shaw volunteers to lead the charge on Fort Wagner. Is that also accurate?
- [35:46]
Kevin Levin
Yeah, for the most part. I mean, his last day alive, of course, is not easy to piece together. His last letter was written a day before, and so we don't have his account, certainly. And some of the commanding officers were killed in the battle as well. Now, whether it was a responsible decision is another question, because as you alluded to, his regiment fought on James Island a couple days earlier on the 16th, I believe. A small engagement, but one in which they were successful against a Confederate raiding party. But his men have gone without food for a couple days. They have very, very little sleep. This is a regiment that is exhausted. And so whether it was wise and what exactly Shaw was trying to prove by including his men in. In this specific assault. This wasn't the first assault on Fort Wagner. It's the second one. It's not exactly clear, and I question whether it was a reckless decision.
- [36:39]
Martin
Yeah, the movie doesn't let you know because it ends, he's dead.
- [36:43]
Kevin Levin
It ends in glory.
- [36:45]
Martin
Was this assault even necessary? There seemed to have been a lot of unnecessary frontal attacks during the Civil War that killed thousands of people. In a historical sense, was this battle necessary?
- [36:56]
Kevin Levin
Whether it was necessary, I don't know if I am sort of the right person to ask whether it was necessary, how it was planned. It is very clear it was sloppily planned. I mean, the kinds of considerations that are left out of the equation are staggering.
- [37:11]
Martin
Like what?
- [37:11]
Kevin Levin
Which I won't bore your viewers.
- [37:12]
Martin
No, no, no, I'm interested. What are they?
- [37:14]
Kevin Levin
The way in which the assault is planned, the intelligence of what's actually included, what Confederates can bring to bear on the attacking columns. The fact that ladders aren't included in the assaulting parties to sort of bridge some of these walls, the high tide, that is a factor in this assault, which, of course, limits the amount of ground you're able to use to attack. All of this seems to have been left to the side in terms of planning this assault. And I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that they are sending a black regiment off to be slaughtered because it's one of a number of regiments included in the assault.
- [37:50]
Martin
Yeah, I mean, the movie depicts it as a suicide attack. They are shot at with cannons as they're running toward the fort. Then when they get to the fort, they have to climb up like a sand bank and they're being picked off. Then some of them get into the fort in the very last scene of the movie. They get to, like, the middle of where they're supposed to be going, and there's a thousand men pointing guns at them. It's.
- [38:11]
Kevin Levin
That's right. And that's actually about right. I mean, there's evidence that a few elements of the 54th and some other regiments are able to penetrate the outside walls. But the Confederates, the resistance is too stiff. And remember, I think there's enough evidence to suggest that Confederates, even in the darkness, understand they're facing black soldiers. And when Confederates are fighting black soldiers, they're fighting a very different enemy than what they would have perceived as if they were just white soldiers. These are slaves in rebellion.
- [38:39]
Martin
Yeah. This is Confederates. There was a scene in the film where Broderick announces to everybody that Jefferson Davis announced that if African Americans are caught fighting for the Union in uniform, they'll be executed. Was that right?
- [38:52]
Kevin Levin
And they're officers as well, for inciting slave insurrection. That, in fact, is true. Any Negro taken in arms against the.
- [39:01]
Matthew Broderick (voice)
Confederacy will immediately be returned to a state of slavery.
- [39:10]
Jeff
Any Negro taken in Federal.
- [39:12]
Denzel Washington (voice)
Federal uniform will be summarily put to death.
- [39:17]
Martin
Do historical movies need to be accurate? Kevin Levin. I know one historian who told me he never watches anything about the area that he studies. It'll never meet his standard. How about you?
- [39:29]
Kevin Levin
I enjoy the movies because it's a reflection of how the Civil War is represented in popular culture. So for that reason alone, I find it interesting. And I would say. I would say no. The answer is Hollywood, you know, is in the business of making entertaining movies that engage as many viewers as possible. I do think that movies set in the past have a responsibility to consider the broad historical context in which these movies are set in. But, you know, to critique the way some of my colleagues do some of these movies seems to miss the point. I think it's much more important, and this is what I used to do in the classroom, it's much more important to point these things out to students, give them the tools that they can use to differentiate between what Hollywood is about and what it is that historians do.
- [40:14]
Martin
You know, it's important to know what Shaw felt about race and slavery in the context of the history of racism in America. Right. And the war to end slavery and what followed after that. So the film, the Hollywood movie, wants him to be a much more sympathetic figure, wants him to be a good guy. Right. So they make more of a hero out of him in that regard. I don't know if I really have a problem with that or not. It's important to know what the truth is. I guess my position on this is it depends. Depends on which facts they're flubbing, how fictitious it is. But also, I tell everyone, watch movies but read books. Let the movie be an entryway to reading about the subject matter and read a book. Although, of course, books aren't always accurate either.
- [40:58]
Kevin Levin
You took the words out of my mouth. I mean, I think most people do understand at some level that a Hollywood movie isn't a serious work of history. For people who want to know more, I think they have some sense of where to go to if they they want to deepen their, their knowledge.
- [41:13]
Martin
A couple more things here, Kevin. You say in your substack post, we're going to return to the letter that's narrated in the very beginning of the film. If you were to go on AI, search Google, whatever and say, did Robert Gould Shaw actually write these words to his mom? It would come back yes.
- [41:30]
Kevin Levin
Yes.
- [41:31]
Martin
Why?
- [41:31]
Kevin Levin
It'll come back yes. Because AI is simply scrubbing what is available on the Internet. And if you have enough people who have already accepted that the Shaw letter is an authentic letter, whether it's on their website or their own blog or newsletter, AI is going to scrub that and present it in their results in the affirmative. And that's what you end up getting. But if you go into the archive, and I challenge any of your viewers, go into the archive, Shaw's letters are digitized at Harvard's library. You can read Shaw in his original handwriting online. Look, if you happen to find the letter, please let me know in the next few weeks before my book goes into final print.
- [42:10]
Martin
Wow. So you've been doing a lot of work this year, not just this year about preserving Civil War memory, but this year in particular. You've been peeved at how the Trump administration is distorting the past in the name of fighting woke fighting dei. And I wonder how they would feel they the administration. Pete Hegseth, about a movie like Glory because you wrote a substack article earlier this year where the Frederick Douglass parade was canceled because the 54th Massachusetts pulled out of it because the Pentagon didn't want any kind of celebration that focuses in on the immutable characteristics of a people, which is totally absurd in the context of the Civil War and a black regiment. I mean, that's the whole point. Unbelievable.
- [42:58]
Kevin Levin
So it is. I spent I don't know how many weeks earlier in the year sort of tracking the attempt to erase from websites at Arlington National Cemetery, websites across the federal government system of history that relates, that tells the story of minorities in the American military. And, and it's incredibly frustrating because the military has always been a place that has sort of not only struggled with the issues of race and discrimination along various lines, but also found ways to push back against it. Right. We've found there are plenty of examples where it's in the military that we've seen some of the most important successes, victories over some of these deeply ingrained challenges that we struggle with as a nation. And so it is, it's befuddling to me. I think it speaks to the priority of the administration and seeing history as simply a political weapon to use against people for various reasons. And I think through its policies pushing back against Smithsonian, the National Park Service, it's playing out on a large scale. It's playing out across the board. It's probably left us with a lot of long term damage that we're going to have to figure out a way to repair at some point.
- [44:07]
Martin
When we last spoke, you mentioned how the administration was conducting a review of all the media at national parks, which includes many Civil War battlefields at the time. I can't even remember when we spoke. Couple months ago.
- [44:22]
Kevin Levin
Yeah, a couple months ago.
- [44:22]
Martin
At the time you hadn't really seen any negative changes yet. Has that changed?
- [44:27]
Kevin Levin
I think that's the status quo and I think in part because of where we are right now with the federal government shut down. So it's not clear to me there were a number of reports a few weeks ago that drastic changes were underway, but I haven't really, really heard anything. We'll have to wait and see as the government opens up, when it opens.
- [44:43]
Martin
Up again, I guess. And they want to do the Smithsonian. I mean, in their view, there should be no a museum for black history at all.
- [44:50]
Kevin Levin
That's right.
- [44:51]
Martin
I mean, they wouldn't build something like that because it's about the immutable characteristics of people.
- [44:56]
Kevin Levin
Yeah, I mean, well said. Well said.
- [45:21]
Martin
On the next episode of history as it happens. Have you seen the new Netflix film house of dynamite about nuclear combat? Joe Cirincione will rejoin us about the importance of such films, whether they're accurate and why that matters. That is next, as we report history as it happens. Make sure you sign up for my newsletter. Just go to substack and search for history as it happens.
- [45:47]
Jeff
Morning, Zoe. Got donuts.
- [45:49]
Zoe
Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage?
- [45:52]
Jeff
Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T mobile commercial like you teach me. So, Dana.
- [45:59]
Zoe
Oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at t mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.
- [46:11]
Jeff
Wow, impressive. Let me try. T mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.
- [46:18]
Martin
Nice.
- [46:19]
Zoe
Jeffrey, you heard them.
- [46:20]
Jeff
T mobile is the best place to.
- [46:22]
Kevin Levin
To get the new iPhone 17 Pro.
- [46:24]
Jeff
On us with eligible traded in any condition. So what are we having for launch?
- [46:29]
Zoe
Dude, my work here is done.
- [46:31]
T-Mobile Announcer
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- [46:46]
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