History As It Happens – "Party of Lincoln"

Host: Martin Di Caro
Guest: Jim Oakes (historian, scholar of antebellum politics, slavery, and Abraham Lincoln)
Date: November 25, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Martin Di Caro sits down with historian Jim Oakes to investigate whether the modern Republican Party can truly claim lineage from Abraham Lincoln and the founding ideals of the Republican Party. Reflecting on contemporary political disputes, factionalism, and the evolving legacy of “the Party of Lincoln,” the conversation explores 19th-century roots and the complex transformations of the GOP across American history. This is the first of a two-part series on political lineages in the United States.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Myth and Meaning of "The Party of Lincoln"

[02:47–04:48]

• The Republican Party was established in the 1850s, with Abraham Lincoln becoming its first anti-slavery president in 1860.
• Martin highlights how politicians, particularly Donald Trump, invoke Lincoln’s legacy:

“With the exception of the late, great Abraham Lincoln, I can be more presidential than any president that's ever held this office.” – Donald Trump (quoted by Martin at 04:21)

2. Republican Roots: Coalition and Principles

[09:00–11:28]

• The original Republican Party was a coalition of radical abolitionists, conservative Whigs, anti-Southern Democrats, and others united primarily by opposition to the extension of slavery.
• Jim Oakes explains:

“You want to find a racist, you’ll find racists, especially among the former Democrats who want to keep slavery out of the territories because they want to keep black people out of the territories … But there’s plenty of that in the Republican Party if you want to find it. There are free traders and there are tariff people.” (10:34)

3. The Centrality of Slavery’s Expansion

[11:28–12:52]

• The party’s common ground was hostility to slavery’s expansion, but approaches differed:

“The mainstream Republican Party that Lincoln comes into the party as part of was opposed to slavery as such … to, as Lincoln said, put slavery on the course of ultimate extinction.” – Jim Oakes (11:53)

• Not all “abolitionists” were Garrisonians; opposition varied in immediatism and means.

4. Activism, Government, and Whig Ideals

[14:47–16:10]

• Lincoln was a Whig and supported economic activism: public works, railroads, national banking, protective tariffs, and education, standing for an “active government.”
• On Lincoln’s relation to capitalism and anti-slavery:

“If you define capitalism as free labor … then slaveholders are anti-capitalist and Lincoln is the arch capitalist.” (15:50)
“If you think capitalism is limited government, laissez-faire…that’s not [Lincoln’s] position.” (16:10)

5. The Civil War Amendments and Federal Power

[16:26–18:26]

• The 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments radically expanded federal power over states, especially in civil rights and citizenship:

“It’s a dramatic increase. The Civil War and the Civil War amendments … represent a dramatic increase in the power of the federal government over the states.” – Jim Oakes (18:21)

6. Reconsidering the “Conservatism” of Lincoln and the Party

[18:26–19:28]

• Political spectrums shift—Lincoln was “left” in his time, conservative only relative to radicals, not to Southern secessionists.
• Jim clarifies:

“Compared to the radical Republicans he’s conservative, sure. Compared to Jefferson Davis, he’s a bloodthirsty Jacobin.” (19:18)

7. Legislative Legacy of the Republican Congress

[20:22–23:10]

• Major acts during the Civil War: Homestead Act, Pacific Railroad Act, Department of Agriculture, national banking, land grant colleges.
• These were possible only after Southern Democrats left Congress, removing the anti-government bloc.
• Martin notes: "Not sure Ronald Reagan would have approved of that." (23:10), highlighting the contrast with modern anti-government rhetoric.

8. Post–Civil War Republican Identity: Civil Rights and Party Realignment

[24:12–25:22]

• The Republican Party led the passage of the 13th-15th Amendments, advancing civil rights during Reconstruction.
• Today’s political actors often oversimplify these lineages:

“Tarring Democrats with the long history of racism into the present is as simplistic as trying to find a direct lineage from Lincoln to Reagan.” – Jim Oakes (24:12)

9. Lincoln’s Enduring Legacy and Misconceptions

[25:22–27:26]

• The abolition of slavery is “the most important social revolution in American history” and central to the GOP’s original purpose.
• Oakes laments contemporary “nothing’s changed” discourse post-2020 and George Floyd:

“Do you know what slavery was? … To have, you know, it's illegal to teach you to read. Your … marriages aren't legal. You can be bought and sold. It's like a failure of imagination.” (28:40)

10. Reclaiming Historical Legacy in Modern Politics

[29:05–29:57]

• Martin and Oakes criticize disowning Lincoln’s legacy on the left:

“If you're a liberal, why would you say all of American history belongs to the conservatives? … Just do what Martin Luther King did. You know, we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal.” – Jim Oakes (29:44)

11. Changing Conservative Perspectives

[30:29–31:16]

• Early conservatism often viewed Lincoln with suspicion—some saw him as a tyrant, but scholars like Harry Jaffa helped revive Lincoln’s standing on the right.

12. Where Is the Party Now?

[32:30–34:40]

• Oakes notes how certain strands of the GOP adopted the rhetoric of racial equality “without race as a criterion.”
• Present-day Republican Party, under Trump, diverges from this legacy; even Reagan marked a radical anti–New Deal turn but not a true return to 19th-century values.

13. The Paradox of Big Government Conservatism

[36:04–37:19]

• The settlement of the West, land grants, and infrastructure—all examples of indispensable government-led projects, levels of intervention at odds with modern “small government” rhetoric.

“You can't understand American history without understanding the government's indispensable role…” – Martin (36:38)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Rule of law. So for instance, secession was illegal, just like an insurrection today would be illegal. Unacceptable. Free markets, capitalism." – Martin (09:00)
• “You want to find a racist, you’ll find racists, especially among the former Democrats … But there's plenty of that in the Republican Party if you want to find it.” – Jim Oakes (10:34)
• “The United States was founded on capitalism, free markets, private enterprise, self improvement.” – Martin (16:20)
• “If you're a liberal, why would you say all of American history belongs to the conservatives?... Just do what Martin Luther King did.” – Jim Oakes (29:44)
• “Is the Republican Party today still the party of Lincoln?” – Martin (32:30)
• "It's hard to imagine American history without that kind of stuff." – Jim Oakes (36:24)

Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:47]: Introduction to Lincoln and the 1860 Republican platform
• [07:01]: Jim Oakes on being “not very online” and the historian’s view
• [09:00]: Party coalitions and anti-slavery roots
• [14:47]: Lincoln’s Whig values and economic activism
• [16:26]: Postwar Amendments and expansion of federal authority
• [18:26]: Lincoln’s political place—conservative or radical?
• [20:22]: Republican legislative achievements during the Civil War
• [24:12]: Realignment, civil rights, and oversimplified party legacies
• [25:22]: Lincoln’s abolitionist legacy and persistent misconceptions
• [29:05]: Disowning Lincoln: Politics and memory
• [32:30]: Is the GOP still the Party of Lincoln?
• [36:04]: Historical realities of government activism

Tone & Language

• The conversation is thoughtful, scholarly, and sometimes wry. Both Martin and Jim make use of irony and historical context to tease apart myths from realities, never shying from complexity. Oakes’s answers are nuanced and often challenge both contemporary progressive and conservative simplifications.

Summary

This episode unpacks the claim that today’s Republican Party is “the Party of Lincoln,” showing the ideological and practical ruptures from the party’s anti-slavery, activist-government origins to its modern, fractured, and often anti-government stance. Jim Oakes, with Martin’s probing questions, reveals that American political lineages are anything but straight, and that using “the Party of Lincoln” as a badge or a slur oversimplifies a profoundly complicated, evolving political tradition.

Next episode: The conversation continues with Max Boot, focusing on the “Party of Reagan” and the legacy of the conservative revolution.