Podcast Summary: History As It Happens

Episode: Rumors of a King
Host: Martin Di Caro
Guest: Joseph Ellis (Pulitzer Prize-winning historian)
Date: October 28, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode examines the tension between presidential power and the American principle of "no kings", exploring whether President Donald Trump's actions reflect the Founders’ greatest fear: the rise of an American monarch. With historian Joseph Ellis, the conversation spans from the origins of executive authority in the U.S. Constitution to contemporary debates about constitutional limits, the 22nd Amendment, and the health of the republic. Recent events—including mass "No Kings" protests and Trump’s open consideration of a third term—fuel a discussion about how the lessons and fears of 1776 remain deeply relevant to current events.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. “No Kings” Protests and the Modern Presidency

Timestamps: 01:01 - 04:14

• The US saw coast-to-coast "No Kings" protests opposing what many perceive as President Trump’s monarchical behavior.
• Trump responded (often ironically) by sharing AI-generated videos depicting himself as a crowned king.
  • "I don't feel like a king. I have to go through hell to get stuff approved. No, no, we're not a king at all.” – Donald Trump, (01:13)
• Concerns are raised about Trump's bypassing constitutional checks, with references to:
  • Use of the Justice Department against political enemies
  • Deployment of ICE in cities
  • Airstrikes without congressional approval
  • Hints about seeking a third term, despite the 22nd Amendment
  • Physical changes to the White House as a metaphor for upending constitutional norms

2. The Founders’ Fears: Monarchy Revisited

Timestamps: 04:25 - 11:25

• Di Caro reads from a William Lucktenberg essay: Founders' concern about repeating the European pattern of monarchy.
  • At the Constitutional Convention, rumors swirled of plans to install a king, dismissed only once and only with clear denial to the press.
  • The episode underscores that monarchy was the global rule, not the exception, in the 1780s.
• The Declaration of Independence is discussed as an explicit indictment of monarchical abuse:
  • “There are five or six charges against George III that have an eerie similarity to the behavior of the current resident of the White House.” — Joseph Ellis, (10:54)
• Presentism warning: Ellis emphasizes not to overlay modern judgments on the past, but to understand context.

3. Defining “Republic,” “Democracy,” and the Dangers of Unchecked Executive Power

Timestamps: 11:38 - 13:05

• The Founders saw democracy as “mob rule,” preferring a republic—a system of government representing the people but not direct rule by them.
• The peculiar American institutions (e.g., the Electoral College) are rooted in fears of unchecked majority rule and the concentration of executive power.

4. Imperial Presidency or Elected Monarch?

Timestamps: 13:27 - 16:41

• Debate over whether Trump is a fascist, nationalist, or simply the most flagrant example of the longstanding “imperial presidency.”

• Ellis on “elected monarch”:

  • “By and large, yes. His second term has exposed that he’s committed to... over[throw] the current Constitution and give the President... authority over all.” — Joseph Ellis, (13:27)
  • Diagnoses Trump’s leadership style as “malignant narcissism,” inherently unable to recognize restraints outside of his own will.
  • Argues some Americans want a “monarch” willing to reverse 20th-century reforms.

• Notable quote: “Trump cannot process information at odds with his own interest, because the only source of authority for Trump is himself.” — Joseph Ellis, (14:00)

• The meaning behind “Make America Great Again” is dissected as a coded longing for America before its major social reforms—potentially even before the Revolution itself.

5. Constitutional Design and Its Failures

Timestamps: 16:41 - 17:46

• The government’s deliberately fragmented design intended to prevent tyranny.
• Ellis bluntly states: “That government structure has failed us.” (16:41)
• The Supreme Court and Congress have become complicit, notably in the decision he calls the worst in U.S. judicial history—Trump v. U.S.

6. King George III, Parliament, and the Historical Model

Timestamps: 17:46 - 22:14

• Discussion of how Americans saw George III as a tyrant, although he wasn’t an absolute monarch in Britain.
• The Declaration of Independence radically shifted the political paradigm, placing power with the people, not with God-anointed monarchs.
• Parallels are drawn between British mismanagement of the American colonies and later U.S. misadventures abroad.

7. The Founders’ View of Executive Power

Timestamps: 23:46 - 26:47

• Two “ghosts” haunted the Constitutional Convention: slavery and George III.
• The only consensus about the new executive was “no version of George III.”
• Article II of the Constitution is critiqued for its vagueness—its powers ultimately shaped by George Washington, who set the precedent by relinquishing power.
  • “Washington himself makes it a powerful office, but the biggest thing he does is walk away.” — Joseph Ellis, (24:33)
• Washington’s abdication as commander and refusal of monarchy seen as his greatest legacy.

8. The Ongoing Temptation of Monarchy & Executive Expansion

Timestamps: 27:56 - 32:46

• Hamilton’s idea for a lifetime presidency (not adopted) labeled him a “monarchist.”
• Di Caro and Ellis discuss recent speculation about Trump seeking a third term.
  • "People are asking me to run, and there's a whole story about running for a third term. I don't know... They do say there's a way..." — Donald Trump, (28:48)
• The 22nd Amendment (two-term limit) as a safeguard—its origins in FDR’s four elections.
• Congress has increasingly ceded war powers—a fundamental fear for the Founders.

9. Article II’s Vagueness: Blessing or Curse?

Timestamps: 31:22 - 33:23

• Ambiguity in the Constitution around executive power may have been necessary for ratification but left unresolved dangers.
• Ellis argues the Founders would be “appalled” at today’s presidential power.
  • “Article II is clear in one specific way. No, King, that is absolutely clear.” — Joseph Ellis, (32:13)
• Congressional abdication of power has deepened the problem.

10. Closing Reflections: Why the Declaration Still Matters

Timestamps: 33:26 - 34:23

• Ellis urges a return to reading and arguing about the Declaration of Independence as the core of American values.
  • “More important than my book, read the Declaration of Independence and have debates about it...” — Joseph Ellis, (33:42)
• He suggests the US is contemplating “throwing away” a unique and successful two-and-a-half-century-old system.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On present-day power:
  “Not that I don't have the right to do anything I want to do. I'm the President of the United States. If I think our country is in danger... I can do it.” — Donald Trump, (07:03)

• On Trump’s psychology:
  “Trump cannot process information at odds with his own interest... the only source of authority for Trump is himself.” — Joseph Ellis, (14:00)

• On the Founders’ core concern:
  “The only thing they can agree about in terms of the powers of the presidency is that it must not be a version of George III, a monarch.” — Joseph Ellis, (24:13)

• On the Supreme Court:
  “The worst decision in the history of the Supreme Court... is Trump versus us, because it’s both unconstitutional and it destroys the balance of power.” — Joseph Ellis, (17:30)

• On the Declaration’s continuing relevance:
  “That’s the motherload… core values that the Constitution is attempting to implement... When we start to celebrate it, we're talking about a government… unlike anything that existed before, has worked for two and a half centuries, and we're thinking of throwing it away.” — Joseph Ellis, (33:42)

Suggested Listening Timestamps for Key Segments

• No Kings protests & Trump response: 01:01 – 04:14
• The founders’ philosophy about monarchy: 04:25 – 11:25
• Joseph Ellis on Trump as elected monarch: 13:27 – 16:41
• Washington sets precedent by walking away: 24:33 – 26:47
• Speculation about third term & Article II's flaws: 28:48 – 33:23
• Closing: The enduring relevance of the Declaration: 33:26 – 34:23

Tone & Style

The tone is engaged, urgent, and sometimes darkly humorous. Ellis blends scholarly analysis with contemporary commentary, often using vivid historical analogies. Martin Di Caro maintains an accessible, inquisitive tone, pressing for clarity and context while inviting listeners to reflect on the Declaration, the Constitution, and their contemporary relevance.

For new listeners:
This episode offers a sweeping, passionate discussion about the roots and risks of American executive power, drawing clear lines from 18th-century debates to today’s constitutional crisis moment. Essential listening for anyone interested in the fate of democracy, the Constitution, and the lessons of history.