History As It Happens – "The Name of Barbarism"

September 23, 2025

Host: Martin Di Caro
Guests: Dirk Moses (historian, editor of Journal of Genocide Research, City College of New York) & Sonia Boulos (jurist, international law expert, Antonio D. Nebrija University, Madrid)

Main Theme

This episode critically examines the concept of genocide as it relates both to the ongoing Israeli military campaign in Gaza and its historical roots in the policies and actions toward Palestinians since 1948. The conversation explores the legal, historical, and political frameworks for understanding "genocide," featuring both scholarly and personal perspectives on the contested terminology, the evolution of international law, and the implications for justice, memory, and state power.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Genocide Convention: Limitations and Political Origins

• Historical Background: The UN Genocide Convention (1948) defines genocide primarily as the physical destruction of groups, omitting political and broader national destruction.
• Dirk Moses: Emphasizes that states crafted the convention to protect the doctrine of "military necessity," allowing extreme wartime violence under certain rules.
  • "The law of genocide, as it was codified ... distinguishes genocide from warfare. ... When the Allies ... codified [Lemkin's] idea ... they wanted to rescue the notion of military necessity." (13:45–16:00)
• Definition Gaps: The Convention focuses on physical killing, not the political elimination of groups, which Lemkin originally intended to prohibit.
  • "It focuses exclusively on physical destruction of a group ... it doesn't, for example, cover other forms of destruction as a political group. So that's a serious shortcoming." – Sonia (16:47)

2. Genocide as a Process: The Palestinian Case

• Historical Trajectory: Martin Di Caro and guests trace the systematic destruction of Palestinian society:
  • The Nakba (1948): 750,000 Palestinians expelled.
  • 1967 War: 300,000 more expelled.
  • Decades of dispossession and restricted rights—termed as "slow motion genocide."
  • "Genocide is a process, a process that began in 1948." – Martin (07:32)
• Sonia Boulos: Stresses the ongoing elimination project inside Israel and the occupied territories:
  • "This elimination is not only in the West Bank and Gaza, it's also inside Israel. ... 80% of Palestinians who lived in what is now known as the State of Israel were ethnically cleansed from their homelands." (20:36–22:36)

3. Legal vs. Common Understandings of Genocide

• Public Perception: Ordinary people, especially now with live-streamed destruction, often have an instinctive grasp that mass displacement, targeting civilians, and cultural erasure amount to genocide—even if legal categories lag behind.
  • "The public view is actually phenomenologically the accurate view of what is going on and that the law needs to catch up." – Dirk (30:47)
• Mental and Social Harm: Recent UN reports expand on "mental harm," starvation, the destruction of infrastructure, and reproductive harm as constituent elements of genocide.
  • "Palestinians have been displaced six times on average ... these kinds of harms also count as part of this genocidal campaign." – Sonia (34:26–35:46)

4. Colonial Roots of Dehumanization

• Colonial Legacy: Both guests trace the roots of Palestinian dehumanization to European settler colonial mindsets.
  • "People tend to ignore the fact that Israel is a settler colonial project. ... Leading Zionist leaders [used] colonial tropes ... to justify establishing a Jewish homeland in a region they portrayed as uncivilized." – Sonia (35:59–37:30)

5. Zionism: Colonialism and National Liberation

• Nuance and Complexity: Dirk Moses emphasizes that while Zionism had clear settler colonial characteristics, it's also a national liberation movement for Jews—a dual nature often lost in discourse.
  • "If I had a college student say ... Israel and Zionism is nothing but a settler colonial project, I would say ... it's also a national project." (41:03)
  • "A colonist comes to take over; an immigrant joins and integrates." (41:44)
• Demographic Engineering: Organized Zionist leadership sought demographic shifts and control, even as individual Jewish refugees simply sought safety.

6. Western Recognition of Palestinian Statehood

• Recent Developments: Several Western countries have recently recognized Palestinian statehood, but Boulos suggests this may be more about rehabilitating Israel's global standing than supporting Palestinian rights.
  • "Some of these declarations ... are not here to protect or support the Palestinian people [but to] save Israel from itself ... it's in a way for the protection of Israel, not the protection of Palestinians." – Sonia (43:48)
• Calls for Sanctions: International law, through the recent ICJ advisory opinions, obliges third-party states to sanction and not support violations—something recognition alone does not achieve.

7. Teaching and Memory: German and Western Responses

• German Memory Politics: Dirk draws parallels between post-Holocaust German introspection and today's crisis, referencing Adorno's work on education after Auschwitz.
  • "What would education after Gaza mean? ... Many Germans have actually adopted a version of Adorno as their ideology, misinterpreted it. ... Their only way to come to terms with [the Holocaust] is to gain the forgiveness of the people that they killed. ... In implementing the notion of 'never again,' they're actually ... supporting a genocidal project." (47:52–56:44)
• Selective Remembrance: Germans, suggests Moses, are unable to empathize with Palestinian suffering because their national identity depends on unwavering support for Israel.
• Memorable Analogy: The comparison of iconic child victims—Anne Frank and Hinda Raja—exposes the limitations and biases in Western memory and empathy.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Genocide's Legal Definition and Practice

• Dirk Moses [13:45]:
  “When Lemkin invented the concept of genocide in the early 1940s, he saw genocide as a form of warfare against the civilian population … wars of extermination. … But when the Allies … codified his idea … they wanted to rescue the notion of military necessity.”

• Sonia Boulos [16:47]:
  “Absolutely not. [It is genocide.] Even if we take the jurisprudence of the International Court of Justice without doing too much effort or being too creative … even within the existing jurisprudence, you can make a case that what’s happening in Gaza now is genocide.”

On Popular vs. Legal Understandings

• Dirk Moses [30:47]:
  “The public view is actually phenomenologically the accurate view of what is going on and that the law needs to catch up.”

On Mental and Social Destruction

• Sonia Boulos [34:26]:
  “Palestinians in Gaza have been displaced six times. Some families 19 times. They’re living under inhuman conditions … starvation … constant worry that you might not survive. … Also the destruction of IVF clinics, reproductive health centers, the destruction of embryos … these are very serious mental harms.”

On Recognition and Accountability

• Sonia Boulos [43:48]:
  “Some of these [statehood] declarations … are not here to protect or support the Palestinian people, but to save Israel from itself … What happened in Gaza and the genocide in Gaza, in a way, is it decolonized the international consciousness … [linking] the Nakba [and] the genocide that is taking place today.”

On German and Western Self-Reflection

• Dirk Moses [47:52]:
  “Why would it be impossible for [Germans] to remember Anne [Frank] and Hind [Raja] together? The reason is … people like Hinn [a Palestinian child] need to die so that people like Anna can survive and absolve [Germans] of the guilt of the Holocaust. … In implementing … ‘never again,’ they’re actually in fact supporting a genocidal project.”

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Defining Genocide & Its Legal Shortcomings: 01:58–04:36, 13:03–16:47
• Historical Origins of Palestinian Dispossession: 04:36–07:32, 20:36–22:36
• Genocide as Ongoing Process: 07:32–10:08, 46:36–47:37
• Legal, Political, and Common Sense Understandings: 16:47–19:53, 26:44–30:47
• Mental Harm and Non-Physical Destruction: 32:43–35:46
• Colonialism, Nationalism, and Zionism: 35:59–41:44
• German & Western Memory Politics: 47:52–58:02

Tone and Language

• The conversation is frank, scholarly yet accessible, and urgent.
• Both guests are articulate in connecting legal, historical, and moral arguments, and Martin De Caro guides with probing, clear questions.
• The tone is critical—calling out both liberal denialism and Western states’ complicity—and also reflective, especially in the segments discussing historical memory and teaching.

Conclusion

"The Name of Barbarism" provides a vital historical and conceptual framework for understanding the current violence against Palestinians as not merely a tragic event but the latest chapter of a long-standing process rooted in settler colonialism, legal ambiguities, and global power structures. Guests challenge both official narratives and legalistic hedging, calling for a reckoning rooted in history, law, and humanity.

Recommended Next Episode: (Previewed at [58:02]) – "What does it mean when we say Israel has a right to exist? Where does that question come from? Are we referring to the state, the regime, or the current government?"