History As It Happens: "The Question of Genocide, Revisited"

Episode Release Date: January 28, 2025
Host: Martin Di Caro
Guest: Dirk Moses, Historian and Genocide Studies Expert

Introduction

In the January 28, 2025 episode of History As It Happens, hosted by award-winning broadcaster Martin Di Caro, the complex and contentious topic of genocide is revisited, particularly in the context of contemporary events in Gaza. Martin engages in a profound discussion with Dirk Moses, a renowned historian specializing in genocide studies and international relations at City College of New York. The conversation delves into the historical definitions of genocide, the evolution of international law, and the pressing debates surrounding current allegations against Israel.

Historical Context and the Evolution of Genocide

Martin DeCaro opens the episode by highlighting the ongoing debate among historians and genocide scholars regarding whether Israel's actions in Gaza constitute genocide. He references the Nuremberg Trials, noting that despite the atrocities committed by the Nazis, genocide was not charged as an independent crime during these proceedings. Dirk Moses elaborates on this, explaining how, at Nuremberg (02:25 - 02:36), key Nazi figures were tried not under the standalone charge of genocide but under broader indictments of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Dirk Moses recounts the atmosphere of the Nuremberg Trials, emphasizing that although Raphael Lemkin had coined the term "genocide," its legal recognition was still nascent and fraught with conceptual ambiguities. Moses points out that despite widespread recognition of the Holocaust as genocide, the tribunal did not prosecute individuals solely for this crime (01:12 - 03:27).

Defining Genocide: Legal and Conceptual Challenges

The conversation shifts to the intricate and often contested definition of genocide. Dirk Moses explains that the Genocide Convention, formulated post-World War II, narrowly defines genocide to exclude political groups, thereby allowing states to repress domestic opposition without facing genocide charges (03:27 - 06:43). This legal restriction means that actions motivated by political intent, even if violent and oppressive, fall outside the scope of genocide under international law.

Moses highlights that genocide, as legally defined, focuses on the intent to destroy specific racial, ethnic, or biological groups, differentiating it from general warfare. He argues that this narrow definition hampers the ability to prosecute and prevent large-scale atrocities (06:43 - 12:21).

Current Events: Israel and Gaza

Turning to the present, Martin DeCaro and Dirk Moses dissect the situation in Gaza. DeCaro references the International Criminal Court (ICC) issuing arrest warrants for the Israeli Prime Minister, accusing Israel of mass displacement and severe humanitarian crimes in Gaza (00:43 - 11:05).

Navi Pillay, former United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, is quoted discussing the systematic attacks against civilians in Gaza (10:13 - 11:05). DeCaro underscores that despite the gravity of the situation—with tens of thousands dead and widespread destruction—neither Israeli nor Hamas leaders have been charged with genocide by the ICC. Instead, the charges focus on war crimes and crimes against humanity, reflecting the limitations of the current legal framework (11:05 - 12:21).

Scholarly Debate: Divided Perspectives

The episode delves into the polarized perspectives among scholars regarding whether Israel's actions qualify as genocide. Norman Goda, a professor of Holocaust Studies, is cited expressing skepticism about genocide allegations against Israel, suggesting that such charges often serve to challenge Israel's legitimacy and dilute the term's severity (34:16 - 35:02).

Dirk Moses counters by emphasizing the complexity of intertwining military necessity with criminal intent. He argues that actions in Gaza, such as the deliberate destruction of civilian infrastructure, could indicate a genocidal intent, irrespective of the official narrative of self-defense (15:22 - 28:40). Moses criticizes the legalistic debate that prioritizes definitions over empirical realities, pointing out that Gaza's devastation surpasses mere military necessity (26:40 - 28:40).

Holocaust Memory and Its Influence

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on how Holocaust memory shapes current genocide definitions and perceptions. Dirk Moses explains that the Holocaust serves as the archetype of genocide, deeply embedding itself in international consciousness and legal frameworks (18:52 - 24:20). This archetype makes it challenging to apply the term "genocide" to other situations without drawing direct comparisons to the Nazis, thereby hindering nuanced understanding and application.

Moses critiques the rigidity of this archetype, arguing that it stifles the recognition of other forms of mass violence and complicates international legal responses. He suggests that the unique moral weight given to the Holocaust often overshadows other atrocities, preventing a more inclusive and effective approach to genocide prevention (24:20 - 38:35).

Racial Hierarchies and Victim Grievability

The episode explores how racial and political biases influence the recognition and response to genocide. Ernesto Verdeja, a scholar at Notre Dame, is referenced for his insights into how Palestinian suffering is perceived and undervalued compared to other international crises, such as the situation in Ukraine (48:57 - 54:18).

Dirk Moses agrees, noting a "hierarchy of grievability" that affects international responses. He points out that geopolitical interests and racial perceptions often determine which victims receive attention and which are marginalized, thereby exacerbating existing conflicts and hindering justice (54:18 - 55:18).

Political Implications and Future Outlook

As the debate intensifies, Martin DeCaro and Dirk Moses discuss the broader implications of defining and prosecuting genocide. Moses emphasizes that the intertwined nature of military operations and genocidal intent complicates legal judgments and international responses. He predicts that the International Court of Justice (ICJ) will struggle to conclusively determine whether the actions in Gaza amount to genocide, given the entrenched legal definitions and political pressures (42:57 - 44:00).

The episode concludes with reflections on the urgency of addressing the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, the limitations of existing international legal frameworks, and the need for a more nuanced and inclusive approach to defining and combating genocide (40:14 - 55:18).

Notable Quotes

• Dirk Moses (02:36): "Flags of the victorious Allies sitting in judgment on the international military tribunal fly over the court building. They took from the German people all those dignities and freedoms that we hold natural and inalienable rights in every human being."

• Dirk Moses (06:43): "The prosecution cross-examined him about killing those who could pose no military threat. Jewish children."

• Navi Pillay (10:28): "Intentional directing attacks against civilians and civilian objects, murder or willful killing, using starvation as a method of war, forcible transfer, gender persecution..."

• Dirk Moses (16:24): "The creation of the genocide concept and law has actually been quite detrimental to international justice rather than a great progress."

• Dirk Moses (21:08): "Genocide is the intent to destroy now, whatever that means as such, ethnic, racial, religious group as such, just for being who they are, not for anything they've done."

• Dirk Moses (35:53): "There's a hierarchy of grievability, to use Judith Butler's term, in our perception of the victims in these conflicts."

• Ernesto Verdeja (54:18): "It is not fair that a Palestinian child cannot grow up in a state of their own, living their entire lives with the presence of a foreign army that controls the movements..."

Conclusion

In this compelling episode, Martin DeCaro and Dirk Moses navigate the intricate and emotionally charged discourse surrounding genocide. By intertwining historical analysis with current events, they shed light on the persistent challenges in defining, identifying, and addressing genocide within international law and political arenas. The discussion underscores the necessity for a more flexible and comprehensive understanding of genocide that transcends traditional archetypes and acknowledges the multifaceted nature of modern atrocities.

For more insights and detailed discussions, listen to the full episode of "History As It Happens" available every Tuesday and Friday.