History As It Happens: Episode Summary

Title: Trump and the Structures of 'Forever War'
Host: Martin DeCaro
Guest: Stephen Wertheim
Release Date: August 1, 2025

Introduction

In the August 1, 2025 episode of History As It Happens, host Martin DeCaro delves into the complexities of U.S. foreign policy under President Donald Trump, examining whether Trump's promise to be a "peacemaker and unifier" can withstand the entrenched structural forces that perpetuate ongoing conflicts worldwide. Joined by historian Stephen Wertheim, the episode navigates through historical precedents, institutional influences, and the evolving nature of American military involvement.

The Promise of Peacemaking and Structural Constraints

Martin DeCaro opens the discussion by questioning the feasibility of an anti-war presidency in the contemporary United States:

"Since 1945, has there been an anti-war president? Is it possible to be an anti-war president when one has at his disposal history's most lethal sophisticated war machine whose tentacles can reach almost any part of the world?"
[02:06]

Stephen Wertheim responds by highlighting the dichotomy between presidential intent and structural limitations:

"Mr. Trump is a thoroughly situational man in a deeply structural bind year after year, the United States stations its military forces on geopolitical fault lines in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. And year after year it gets exactly what it has placed itself to receive..."
[06:03]

Historical Context: From Eisenhower to Obama

The episode provides a historical backdrop, referencing speeches by past presidents to illustrate the longstanding nature of U.S. military involvement:

• Dwight D. Eisenhower warned against the "military-industrial complex" and the dangers of perpetual war:

  "We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex..."
  [00:43]

• Jimmy Carter emphasized the strategic importance of regions like Afghanistan, highlighting their role in global oil exports:

  "...the region, which is now threatened by Soviet troops in Afghanistan, is of great strategic importance. It contains more than two-thirds of the world's exportable oil."
  [01:11]

• Ronald Reagan critiqued Soviet and Cuban influence in Grenada, advocating for NATO's role in ensuring European security:

  "NATO can do for Europe's east what it did for Europe's West. Either you're with us, either you love freedom and with nations which embrace freedom, or you're with the enemy."
  [01:50]

• Barack Obama, despite receiving the Nobel Peace Prize, acknowledged the complexities of leading a nation engaged in multiple wars:

  "Some will kill and some will be killed. And so I come here with an acute sense of the costs of armed conflict..."
  [03:00]

Trump's Foreign Policy: Rhetoric vs. Reality

Donald Trump entered his presidency with promises of peace and a reduction in U.S. military engagements:

"My proudest legacy will be that of a peacemaker and unifier. That's what I want to be, a peacemaker and a unifier."
[02:33]

However, his administration's actions painted a more complex picture:

• Strikes on Iran's nuclear facilities were touted as a "spectacular military success":

  "Iran's key nuclear enrichment facilities have been completely and totally obliterated."
  [05:17]

• Trump expressed intentions to avoid unnecessary wars but faced criticism for mixed results in diplomatic efforts:

  "Unless we discipline our thinking, our definitions, our actions, we may be drawn into more wars. We don't need to fight."
  [01:50]

Stephen Wertheim critiques Trump's approach, noting the lack of a coherent long-term strategy:

"The problem is Trump himself often does not have a great idea of where he wants to go. So if he's the pilot in your metaphorical plane, he seems to be zigzagging and maybe not even heading overall in a clear direction."
[11:10]

The Structures Influencing U.S. Foreign Policy

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the "structures" or institutional forces that shape and often constrain presidential decision-making:

• Stephen Wertheim defines these structures as encompassing the military-industrial complex, intelligence agencies, Congress, think tanks, and the media:

  "Cultural forces and expectations, political pressures, public opinion, weapons manufacturers and the news media. The United States maintains an empire that is supposed to keep the peace and protect the nation's interests, yet only makes war more likely."
  [07:30]

• The concept of "the blob," popularized by Ben Rhodes, refers to the undifferentiated and often resistant set of institutions that uphold existing foreign policy paradigms:

  "The term blob becomes an epithet used to denounce those who follow existing policies. However, these same institutions heavily influence and often constrain the policies they are meant to implement."
  [17:38]

American Exceptionalism and National Identity

The episode explores how the idea of American exceptionalism intertwines with military dominance:

• Stephen Wertheim discusses the evolution of American exceptionalism, particularly under Trump's "Make America Great Again" slogan, which redefines national greatness without adhering to traditional exceptionalist doctrines:

  "Donald Trump, when he ran for president originally in 2016, said he didn't like American exceptionalism. He said it was a bad idea... he took a party for whom American exceptionalism was an article of faith and kind of redefined what America Americanness was."
  [19:11]

• The conversation underscores the difficulty in categorizing modern presidents within traditional ideological camps, such as primacists or restrainers:

  "He can say, I don't know why we have this alliance. I don't know why this war is going on. I want to do this and that. But his main position seems to be to renegotiate things so that there's an improvement..."
  [12:45]

Militarization of the Middle East

A critical analysis is provided on the U.S. military presence in the Middle East and its repercussions:

• Jimmy Carter's Doctrine marked a pivotal moment, asserting the U.S.'s commitment to defending the Persian Gulf region:

  "An attempt by any outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interest of the United States of America..."
  [38:33]

• The episode traces the continuous U.S. military involvement post-Gulf War, emphasizing the challenges of defining core versus peripheral interests:

  "The US withdrawal in Afghanistan emboldens bad actors all over the world. We look weak. So, you know, to Biden's credit, he went ahead with a withdrawal..."
  [46:08]

Isolationism vs. Primacy: The Ongoing Debate

The tension between isolationist tendencies and the pursuit of global primacy remains a central theme:

• Stephen Wertheim argues against the simplistic labeling of certain policies as isolationist, suggesting that what is often termed isolationism actually reflects a strategic retrenchment:

  "The term isolationism becomes widely used in the United States only in the 1930s, and it is used almost exclusively as an epithet by people who want to denounce the people that they're calling isolationists."
  [50:04]

• The discussion highlights the complexities of reducing U.S. military commitments without jeopardizing global stability:

  "The United States should remain militarily present in Asia. Long discussion about my views on that, but I think we should be getting out of the Middle East and hand off the defense of Europe onto European allies."
  [48:37]

Conclusion and Future Outlook

As the episode wraps up, Martin DeCaro and Stephen Wertheim reflect on the persistent challenges facing U.S. foreign policy:

• The enduring legacy of American primacy and the "forever war" concept suggest that structural forces will continue to shape, and often constrain, presidential initiatives towards peacemaking.

• Stephen Wertheim emphasizes the need for a nuanced understanding of foreign policy that transcends simplistic ideological labels:

  "We should just focus on what we think is the right policy for the interests of the United States."
  [50:43]

• The episode sets the stage for future discussions, including an upcoming series on the 80th anniversary of the end of World War II, featuring military historian Antony Beaver.

Notable Quotes

• President Trump:

  "We will measure our success not only by the battles we win, but also by the wars that we end and perhaps most importantly, the wars we never get into."
  [02:45]

• Barack Obama:

  "Our systematic effort to dismantle terrorist organizations must continue, but this war, like all wars, must end."
  [04:27]

• Ronald Reagan:

  "Israel must have learned that there is no way it can impose its own solutions on hatreds as deep and bitter as those that produce this tragedy."
  [42:09]

Further Listening

For those interested in exploring more about the intricacies of U.S. foreign policy and historical precedents, History As It Happens continues to offer insightful discussions with leading historians and scholars. Stay tuned for the next five episodes commemorating the 80th anniversary of the end of World War II.

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