Saturday Matinee: Across The Pond

Summary

History Daily: Saturday Matinee – Across The Pond Episode Summary Release Date: February 8, 2025
Host/Authors: Laurie Feathers and Sam Jordison
Guest: Michael Hingston, Author of Try Not to Be Strange: The Curious History of the Kingdom of Redonda

---

Introduction to the Kingdom of Redonda

In this intriguing episode titled "Saturday Matinee: Across The Pond," hosts Laurie Feathers and Sam Jordison delve deep into the enigmatic history of the Kingdom of Redonda with author Michael Hingston. The Kingdom of Redonda, a tiny and largely uninhabitable Caribbean island, has been whimsically ruled by a succession of eccentric authors, artists, and academics since the late 19th century. Hingston's new book, Try Not to Be Strange, published by Canadian small press Biblioasis, explores this peculiar literary monarchy's origins, its key figures, and its enduring legacy.

Origins of the Kingdom

[03:55] Michael Hingston:
Hingston begins by recounting the island's uninhabitable nature, surrounded by sheer cliffs with minimal accessible land. Redonda, part of Antigua and Barbuda, was named by Christopher Columbus who sailed past but never landed, setting the stage for its mythical status.

[09:32] Michael Hingston:
The Kingdom of Redonda originated as a family joke in the 1860s. Matthew Scheele, a resident of nearby Montserrat, gifted his 15-year-old son, Philippe, the barren island as a birthday present. In a ceremonious yet whimsical act, Philippe was crowned King Philippe of Redonda, marking the beginning of a literary monarchy.

Matthew Scheele: The First King

[11:27] Michael Hingston:
Scheele, initially aspiring to be a doctor, became a prolific novelist, particularly in the science fiction genre. Despite his literary success, Scheele rarely mentioned his kingship, relegating it to a semi-embarrassing family anecdote. It wasn’t until 1929 that he publicly acknowledged his role as King Philippe, partly as a publicity stunt to promote his reissued works.

John Gosworth: The Second King and Literary Executor

[17:52] Michael Hingston:
Scheele had no formal succession plan beyond assigning John Gosworth, a young and combative poet, as his literary executor. This dual role required Gosworth to manage Scheele’s literary estate while also assuming the titular kingship. Gosworth expanded the kingdom’s mythos, turning it into a public spectacle through elaborate ceremonies and proclamations, thereby magnifying its cultural footprint.

[20:38] Michael Hingston:
Gosworth’s tenure saw the kingdom’s popularity surge, but his personal struggles with alcoholism led to his eventual decline. Posthumously, Gosworth's casual approach to succession—selling the kingdom multiple times—resulted in multiple claimants, fragmenting the monarchy into rival branches.

Javier Marías and the Contemporary Legacy

[27:22] Michael Hingston:
Author Javier Marías became intertwined with Redonda after being mentioned in his novel All Souls. Intrigued by the mention of Gosworth and the kingdom, Marías embarked on extensive research, eventually being named the next king. His involvement revitalized the kingdom, integrating it into modern literary circles and expanding its influence.

[33:44] Michael Hingston:
Marías utilized the kingdom to foster international cultural associations, founding a publishing company dedicated to Redondan writers and establishing literary prizes. His stewardship maintained the kingdom's playful and imaginative spirit while adapting it to contemporary literary landscapes.

Michael Hingston’s Journey and Research

[35:00] Michael Hingston:
Hingston’s fascination with Redonda began with reading All Souls by Marías. This initial curiosity evolved into a decade-long research project, culminating in his book Try Not to Be Strange. Hingston’s investigative journey included personal visits to Redonda, interactions with current claimants like King Michael the Grey, and explorations of the island’s complex succession history.

[42:26] Michael Hingston:
He recounts his adventurous trip to Redonda, hiring a boat and meeting local claimants who embody the kingdom's blend of reality and fantasy. These interactions highlight the enduring allure of Redonda as a literary and imaginative haven for its rulers.

The Dual Nature of Redonda: Map vs. Territory

[38:29] Michael Hingston:
Hingston introduces the concept of "map" versus "territory" claimants. "Map" claimants are those drawn to Redonda through its storied representation in literature and myth, while "territory" claimants are influenced by the island's physical presence and local narratives. This duality has led to a diverse and sometimes fragmented set of rulers, each interpreting the kingdom’s legacy uniquely.

Impact on Literary Culture

[45:10] Michael Hingston:
The Kingdom of Redonda has served as an intellectual sanctuary for its kings, allowing them to cultivate friendships and artistic collaborations within a fantastical framework. Hingston draws parallels between his research and the literary pursuits of Redondan rulers, emphasizing the kingdom’s role in fostering creative expression and maintaining a playful, rebellious spirit.

Future of the Kingdom of Redonda

[49:44] Michael Hingston:
With the recent passing of Javier Marías, the future of Redonda remains uncertain. Hingston expresses hope that the kingdom will continue under new stewardship, maintaining its rich tradition of literary whimsy and cultural influence. The absence of a clear successor may lead to further fragmentation, but the kingdom's enduring appeal suggests it will persist in some form.

Conclusion

In Try Not to Be Strange, Michael Hingston meticulously unravels the whimsical and storied history of the Kingdom of Redonda, blending fact and fiction to illuminate its unique place in literary culture. Through interviews and personal anecdotes, Hingston captures the essence of Redonda’s rulers—eccentric, passionate, and perpetually creative individuals who have kept the kingdom's spirit alive for over a century. This episode offers listeners a captivating exploration of how a small, uninhabitable island became a beacon for literary imagination and cultural camaraderie.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Sam Jordison [07:17]: "Now I've read the book. That. That prologue's even better. It all makes so much extra sense. So where do we start with this?"

• Michael Hingston [11:27]: "Scheele, initially aspiring to be a doctor, became a prolific novelist... it was just on his mind."

• Michael Hingston [17:52]: "Gosworth was able to publish his own work under various guises... but he pairs the title with the job of literary executor."

• Michael Hingston [27:22]: "When Tyson agrees to do some events... he actually wrote a novel that's sort of a thinly veiled Redondan allegory."

• Michael Hingston [48:37]: "There's something really charming and interesting about it... it's maintained that spirit despite all 150 years of handoffs."

---

Recommendations:

Listeners intrigued by the whimsical history of Redonda and its impact on literary culture are encouraged to visit their local independent bookstore to pick up Michael Hingston’s Try Not to Be Strange: The Curious History of the Kingdom of Redonda, published by Biblioasis in Windsor, Canada. This rich exploration promises to deepen your appreciation for the unique intersection of history, literature, and imagination.

Transcript

[Laurie Feathers]

There are more ways than ever to listen to History Daily ad free. Listen with Wondry plus in the Wondery app as a member of Noiser plus at noiser.com or in Apple Podcasts. Or you can get all of History Daily plus other fantastic history [e-mail] There are few places as quietly exciting, as magical, and full of possibilities as a bookstore. They even smell good new and old simultaneously. In today's rough sea of fast, vapid information, bookstores are island paradises, ports in a storm, micro nations ruled by writer kings. But what if there was a real island paradise ruled by writer kings? There is the Kingdom of Redonda. To help tell its story on today's Saturday matinee, it is the owner of a bookshop making my A bookshop is an island metaphor. A nice complete circle across the Pond is a podcast about the most discussed and anticipated books on both sides of the Atlantic, hosted by Laurie Feathers, the co owner of my favorite local Dallas independent bookstore, Interrobang Books, and UK publisher Sam Jordison. In the episode you're about to hear, they speak with Michael Hingston, author of Try not to Be Strange, the curious history of the Kingdom of Redonda, the tiny Caribbean island that strangely came to be ruled by a line of eccentric authors, artists and academics in what might or might not be a joke. I hope you enjoy. While you're listening, be sure to search for and follow across the Pond. We put a link in the show notes to make it easy for you.

[Capital One Ad]

Here's a tip for growing your business. Get the VentureX business card from Capital One and start earning unlimited double miles on every purchase. That's right, with unlimited double miles, the more your business spends, the more miles you earn. Plus, the venturex Business Card has no preset spending limit, so your purchasing power can adapt to meet your business needs. The VentureX business card also includes access to over a thousand airport lounges. Just imagine where the VentureX business card from Capital One can take your business. Capital One what's in your wallet? Terms and conditions apply. Find out [e-mail] venturexbusiness.

[Sarah Gibson Tuttle]

Raise your hand if you want your nails to look perfect all the time. Me too. I'm Sarah Gibson Tuttle from Olive and June and this is exactly why we created the MANI System. We wanted to make it possible for everyone everywhere to give themselves a beautiful manicure at home with our tools and our long lasting polish. Each manicure with our mani system comes out to just $2. That's right, $2. No more. 30, 40 $50 mani's that you get at a salon and they take hours. Now you can paint your nails on your time and love them more than ever. And by the way, when people ask, who did your nails? Where did you get them done? You're gonna proudly say, I did them myself. Get 20% off your first mani system with code [e-mail] FRESHMANNY20 that's code FRESHMANNY20 for 20% [e-mail] FRESHMANNY20 hi across the Pond listeners.

[Sam Jordison]

So excited today to have with us the author Michael Higston, and we're going to talk about his new book that was published by the Canadian small press Biblioasis a few weeks ago and it's called Try not to Be the Curious History of the Kingdom of Redonda. Welcome Michael, hello.

[Michael Hingston]

Thank you for having me.

[Sam Jordison]

Thank you for being with us. This is such an interesting book and Sam and I are dying to talk to you about it. But let's go ahead and have you read a short passage to get us started.

[Michael Hingston]

Sounds great. I'm going to read to you, fittingly, the prologue to the book, which is called Perpetuating the Fraud. On the evening of November 24, 2009, an email appeared in Michael Howarth's inbox. It had been a crisp, windy Sunday in Downton, the village in southern England where Howarth lived with his wife. Michael and Frances had made their home in Downton for many years and had raised a family there. But now that their youngest daughter had moved out, the couple used the village mainly as a landing pad between assignments as traveling freelance journalists covering the yachting industry. They were a team. Michael wrote the stories and Frances took the photos. Over the years, their work had appeared in dozens of maritime related publications and had taken them everywhere, from Africa to the Galapagos to the Maldives. Just that month, the couple had been to both Amsterdam and Fort Lauderdale, Florida, attending trade shows and taking notes on local accommodations. One overly cozy Dutch establishment had, Howarth wrote on his blog, the smallest elevator known to mankind that is far from kind to men of ample girth. Now Michael and Francis were back in England, airing out their suitcases and making plans for the remainder of the year. One of the biggest events in the yachting world, for instance, was coming up in mid December. The Antigua Charter Yacht show attracted brokers from around the globe who gathered to view boats on display in multiple harbors all around the island. They also came to have a good time under the Caribbean sun. Horiz had spent enough time in the industry to know that these parties and liquid lunches were were the perfect places to find a good story. But he also felt the quality of the Antigua show was on the decline and the price to fly him in Francis across the Atlantic and back was not insignificant. Like any good freelancer, Howarth was weighing his upfront costs against the potential profits that would come with a well placed article or two. But that evening, in front of his computer, Howarth's eye was immediately drawn to the subject line of his new email. He clicked on it and saw the message in full. Dear Michael, an old sea chest was found in the bilge of King Bob the Bald's naval flagship, the Great Peter. Within this sea chest were some water damaged papers, including one assigning the Kingship upon his demise. I attach a copy of the document. I have the original. Regards, John Duffy. P.S. i am just helping to perpetuate the whole fraud. Attached was a scanned copy of a smudged single page royal proclamation. At the top of the page was a tricolored flag with a crest containing a crown sitting atop a castle turret. Instead of handwritten calligraphy, the main text appeared in a cursive typeface that came standard on Microsoft Word. At first glance, Howarth wasn't sure what to make of the document, but he did recognize a few key words and names, especially the one confidently signed in actual handwriting at the bottom of the page, his old friend Robert Williamson, who was also known in certain circles as King Bob the Bald. All at once, the pieces clicked into place. Francis Haworth called to his wife in the next room. Yes, what is it? Haworth stared at his computer screen in disbelief. I think I'm the new king of Redonda.

[Sam Jordison]

Now I've read the book. That. That prologue's even better. It all makes so much extra sense. So where do we start with this? Laurie, there's so much to explain.

Well, Michael, maybe tell us. We've learned there's a new king of Redonda. But why don't you situate us a bit and tell us what is Redonda? Where is it? And give us a little bit of its background and history.

[Michael Hingston]

Yeah, definitely. So the book is a true story. Everything in it is true. And parts of it are sort of more in the gray area between truth and fantasy than others. But the island of Redonda is a real place. Uncontestably. It's in the Caribbean, in the the Leeward Islands, and it is politically part of Antigua and Barbuda. It's the third island that makes up that nation. But geographically it's A little closer to another place called Montserrat. So if you're standing on the shores of Montserrat, Redonda's right off the coast. You can see it pretty clearly. And Redonda itself is about a mile long and I think a third of a mile wide. The real distinguishing feature of it, and the reason it is the particular island that this whole wild story springs from, is that it is uninhabitable pretty much by humans. It's ringed by these sheer vertical cliffs almost the entire way around. And the peak or even the plateau, which is a very small area that humans could actually get to and sort of travel around on, is the only way to get there is up to very steep gullies. Everything else is sort of walled off. And so even when the island was sort of named by westerners, it was Christopher Columbus who sailed, he didn't land there, he sailed past it and named it sort of on his way past. They didn't even try and stop there because it's pretty clear that it's, it's not a place that you can get to or there. It doesn't appear that there's anything even there. So Redonda is functionally sort of an empty island. I think that's the reason why this mythology, it seemed like the right place to overlay this other mythology on top of it.

[Sam Jordison]

So how did, how did this start? Where did this mythology come from? And the first king, I guess.

[Michael Hingston]

Yeah, it started as a family joke really. And for the first 50 years of its existence, it was just this family story between a father and his son. So in the 1860s, there was a man who lived on the island I mentioned, Montserrat, named Matthew Scheele. And he had seven or eight daughters back to back to back, and really wanted a son. Finally, his wife gave birth to a son in 1865 and this man decided as a birthday present he would gift his son the island of Redondo, which was off the coast at the time. Now, interestingly, Redonda, probably because it looked empty and sort of uninteresting, no one else had actually claimed it at that time. So in terms of who, who, you know, quote unquote owns it, which becomes such a key story here, the first claimant really was Matthew Senior. The problem was he didn't tell anyone except for his family. And so when his son turned 15, the family got on a boat along with the local bishop and some well wishers, sailed over to Redonda, takes, you know, I don't know, an hour or two to get there. For Montserrat, probably, and climbed up to the plateau. By this point there was actually a small mining operation there and this pulley system there was an easier way to get from the shoreline up to the plateau. So they climbed in one of the little carts that the guano, phosphate rocks that were being exported normally sat in. The people got in there, they climbed up to the plateau and they had this sort of ceremony, the details of which change a little bit depending on who you ask. But the basic idea being that this 15 year old boy, semi reluctantly going along with his dad's crazy idea, was crowned King Philippe of Redonda.

[Sam Jordison]

Okay. And so that boy went on to have a. Another life.

[Michael Hingston]

Yeah. And that's, that's really the only reason again this story exists at all is because the. It wasn't just any 15 year old boy who was on that island. It was a very ambitious, eccentric, talented and odd man named M.P. scheel, who a couple years later would sail off to England to make a new life for himself. He thought he was going to be a doctor, but ended up being a novelist. He wrote romances and adventure stories for the serial magazines and newspapers of the day and is best known now as a science fiction writer, one of the sort of turn of the century science fiction writers. And for Scheele, well, she's an interesting case because he was someone who wrote so much that he pulled material from his daily life, letters from home, he would just drop wholesale into his newest manuscript because he was writing so quickly. He produced a book a year for almost 20 years. And yet this crazy weird story about his kingdom doesn't show up until about 50 years later. But it's. In 1929 he publishes this little autobiographical essay to promote the release of reissues of some of his earlier books. And in just this one straight paragraph, he just mentions, oh, and by the way, I'm also the king of this island way back home in the Caribbean.

[Sam Jordison]

I had actually heard of MP Scheel before and primarily because there's a book reviewer at the Washington Post, Michael Jerda, who is a huge fan of Scheele. And I just wanted to ask you, Michael, maybe you could explain to us a little bit. I'm sure you've read some of Shiel's books. It sounds to me I've not read him, but that they're kind of all over the place. He has this kind of exotic, Sherlock Holmes like character in one of the books. And then there's also a book I think called the Purple Cloud, which is kind of a Last man on Earth type of novel.

[Michael Hingston]

Yeah. So it is hard to sum him up just because he floated between all these different genres. The Sherlock Holmes character was in his. His first book, and Scheele originally wanted to present himself in this, the decadent movement. So I guess sort of like a more extreme version of Sherlock Holmes, who he explicitly set himself up as the more aesthetically adventurous counterpart to Conan Doyle. But then he basically would write anything he needed to to pay the bills, and wrote so quickly that it's hard to capture everything he did. I would say his most successful books, the ones I've enjoyed the most, were that had the science fiction feel to them. So the Purple Cloud is currently the only book that's in print. Penguin Classics put it out a couple years ago in a really nice edition, and it is a Last man on Earth story. But honestly, the thing I think you'd get reading any of Scheele's work is he always feels like he's stuffing about four books worth of material into each book he does. I remember reading the Purple Cloud, and it opens with this quest to get to the North Pole. And this. The richest man in the world leaves his will, his huge amount of prize money to the first person who can get to the North Pole, because at the time, no one had been there. And you think, okay, well, that sounds like the plot for the novel. And he burnt through it in 30 pages and never comes back to it. And there's something that feels almost, I don't know, luxurious. Like, how do you have the luxury of just throwing away plots like this? You know, are you worried? It feels like he's just going to run out of material. But the Purple Cloud in particular is just overstuffed with all this compulsive detail about once he gets to the Last man on Earth section, he becomes obsessed with this idea of how would one person physically move around the world? And so he invents this alternate fuel source. And he describes in careful detail. At one point, his narrator goes a bit nuts and tries to set all of London on fire. And he explains, well, how would you have to set up the fire so that it would actually spread through the whole city? And that would take years. And then he takes you through all of the years that it takes the character to do it, so you just get the sense of this imagination that's just overflowing. And sometimes it's to successful effect. I think the Purple Cloud's amazing, and sometimes the books can be a little bit of a mess, but I guess the adventure is figuring out. You never really know what you're going to get when you pick up a.

[Rocket Money Ad]

Shield book, you sign up for something, forget about it after the trial period ends, then you're charged month after month after month. The subscriptions are there, but you're not using them. In fact, 85% of people have at least one paid subscription going unused each month. Thanks to Rocket Money, you can see all your subscriptions in one place and cancel the ones you're not using anymore. Now, boom, you're saving more money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com Wondery today. That's RocketMoney.com Wondery RocketMoney.com Wondery.

[Hyundai Ad]

Ready to electrify your drive? Hyundai's Cutting Edge EV lineup is about to change Everything you thought you knew about electric vehicles. Prepare to be captivated by a range that's as bold as it is brilliant. From the lightning fast Ioniq 5 and Ioniq 6 charging from 10 to 80% in a mere 18 minutes to the tech packed cabins boasting highway driving assist and and blind spot collision warning, Hyundai EVs are redefining the electric experience. And with America's best warranty, including a 10 year, 100,000mile limited electric battery warranty, you'll drive with unmatched confidence. Hyundai's EVs aren't just the future, they're the now you've been waiting for. Learn more about Hyundai's [e-mail] call 562-314-4603 for complete details. America's best warranty claim based on total package of warranty programs. See dealer for limited warranty details. See your Hyundai dealer for further details and limitations.

[Sam Jordison]

And then what was Scheele's succession plan for the Kingdom of Redonda, over which he ruled?

[Michael Hingston]

It's funny to say succession plan, because for him there wasn't that's not really how he thought of it. He he came out with this. He sort of admitted to the public that he was the king. As a publicity stunt. It was at the urging of Victor Gallant, who had just started his his publishing company. That's who Scheele's reissues were coming out with. But Scheele himself didn't really care about the kingdom. He didn't mention it in much of his correspondence, except as this again, semi embarrassing family story. But what happened was he was very concerned with his legacy, especially because he'd seen his reputation rise and fall over the decades. And later in life he met a 19 year old man named John Gosworth, who is an energetic editor and poet and sort of a combative. An eager but combative figure in the London literary scene in the 30s. Gosworth idolized a bunch of writers from Scheele's generation and really sort of gathered their first editions when they weren't particularly valuable, tried to keep their works alive and remembered. He also fought for them to get pensions from the government. And so at one point, Shiel mentions to Gosworth, you know, this story. And Gosworth is the first person who thinks, oh, that's not just a family story. That he sort of has this glimmer in his eye like, I could do something with that story. That sounds interesting, that sounds fun. He asks Shield, can he be the next king? And she'll, I think, wisely pairs it because he didn't care about the kingdom. I don't think too much, but he pairs the title with the job of literary executor. So he says to Gosworth, sure, you can. You can be the king, but I also need you to, when I die, look after my copyrights, make sure that my books stay, you know, get reprinted and that any, you know, royalty monies are collected and distributed, that sort of thing. So they, once those two jobs are mixed together, Gosworth and Shiel perform a blood pact at Shield's cottage. They cut their wrists, mix their blood, and sign this very floral sounding contract that says when Shield dies, John Gosworth will take over. And that ends up happening in 1947. I wonder what Scheele would have thought if you'd asked him sort of what Redondo, what its future would have held. Because I think he had in mind that the Literary Executorship was the key piece. But it was Gosworth who really turned the kingdom itself into a story in its own right, a tabloid sensation. And also this piece of literary history that just has continued to snowball ever since.

[Sam Jordison]

Yeah, so talking of snowballing, there's so much going on with Galsworth and what he did, but I also want to bring up the fact that it was really poignant reading about him and he did so much for other writers and writers he was passionate about, you know, as you say, he edited their works, brought them back to attention, really tried to keep their. Their names alive in the spirit of what they were doing, but was unable, certainly later on in his life, to look after himself. And it's a. A long, sad decline into alcoholism and being forgotten as well. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone really reads him anymore. And really, he's remembered as part of this story and for taking this story to quite chaotic places. But maybe you could tell us a bit about that as well. I'm sorry, that was probably about 15 questions, but if you can roll with that to be.

[Michael Hingston]

Every question About Redonda has 15 questions built into it. That's how I still think about it, too. No, I think you're right. I mean, Gosworth is a. It's not. Maybe not fair to say forgotten in his own time, because he was. He was quite well known when he was younger, but he was a man out of time in his own generation. He came up alongside, you know, Dylan Thomas, the sort of rise of modernism and poetry, and he hated it. He was a proudly aesthetically conservative poet who wished that, you know, the form stayed frozen in the strictly metered poems of, you know, the 1910s and earlier. So he was always a bit out of step with the public reading taste. And it really became a key part of his personality that he was sort of defiant against the grain. And that became evident in his work and also how he conducted himself. But his decline came quickly. If you only read about him up till the time he becomes king of Redonda, his career is on a very quick ascent. He had a Collected Poems come out in 1947 when he was in his mid-30s. So presumably his reputation was never at a higher point than then. He also had his own press, so he was. He was able to publish his own work and make sure that the public was never lacking for Gosworth material. He was sort of his own best cheerleader. He wrote under various pseudonyms as well, so he would do the trick. That isn't unique to him in the world of writer publishers, where he would publish his own work under various guises. And it wasn't always clear, maybe to the public, that it was him publishing himself, but certainly it worked for a while. The alcoholism thing really is where he. His. The decline came. This most tragic statistic or fact being that after he published that Collected Poems, which is supposed to be, you know, the crowning achievement for Gosworth, it was for him, too. But the tragedy was he was so young he never published another book under his own name in his lifetime. After that he had jobs editing poetry magazines. At one time he was brought in to replace Muriel Spark as editor of the Poetry Review because of his conservative esthetics. That's what they wanted. And yet was let go from the Post, you know, two years later because he just was totally unfit for the job. Was spending so much of his time in the pubs and a lot of what he was doing in the pubs was conducting this Redondan business in his other separate life as King Juan, the first of Redonda, which is the title he gave himself after taking over from shield, he decided to create this idea of Redonda, as he called it. An intellectual aristocracy was a term he used. And really it was a way to celebrate and codify, I would say, friendships. And between him and other sort of cultural figures, Gosworth was sort of an alienating person, could be off putting to people, pretty strong personality. And yet Redonda was this way where he would say, well, if I can't ask this person to hang out with me in the publisher, I'll tell him I'm knighting him. And then he has to show up. And then Gosworth, who is also a very good self promoter, would turn around, call the press and say, did you hear the kingdom of Redonda is having its latest knighting ceremony? You got to send a reporter. And at that time there were so many reporters and newspapers and this curious story sort of took over. And so for when Gosworth wasn't publishing poetry, he was sort of conducting himself as this mock king around the pubs of London, putting out all these ceremonies, issuing Redondant proclamations, and assigning his court members to produce other works that celebrated the kingdom as well.

[Sam Jordison]

And he also created other kings, or did he?

[Michael Hingston]

Yeah, the plural is the tricky word there, right? Yeah, yeah. And so then again, I hope it's clear, like when I talk about this, I'm like smiling every time I talk about it because it's such a light hearted fun story. But the if you're thinking of what are the rules of this kingdom? Okay, so it's passed from SHIELD at Gosworth on SHIELD's death and there was a blood pact involved. Okay, is that how it's going to work next time? So the question was for Gosworth, who took the kingdom seriously and actually really did make it into something that the general public may have known about. It was in a lot of the papers. But when Gosworth, his career took a decline, he couldn't Find steady work. He realized that the thing he had that was the most valuable was this strange kingdom. And so in times of financial need, he sold the kingdom, which I, I don't know how it works in other monarchies and like the fine print, but I, it seems reasonable. Okay, he can sell it, sure, why not? But presumably he could only do that once. And what Gosworth did was he sold it multiple times and varying years without informing the other previous recipients. And so it wasn't until Gosworth died in 1970 that you get half a dozen people suddenly coming out of the woodwork waving, you know, bar napkins, or maybe they had one of these irrevocable covenants, as he called them, or maybe it was just a handshake deal, but suddenly all these people came forward and said, I'm the Shu king. Well, I'm the Shu king. And that's where the story sort of fragments. And you get now what we have, which is competing branches of the kingdom of Redonda and rivalries and varying claimants to the throne. And the story really kicks into, in a way, kicks into high gear once Gosworth passes.

[Sam Jordison]

Michael, I want to ask you about how your initial knowledge or interest in the kingdom of Redonda started. And it's actually your reading of the Javier Moraes novel All Souls, where he talks about the kingdom of Redonda, and later Javier Moraes actually becomes the king of Redonda, Perhaps contested, but nonetheless the king. Tell me a little, tell our listeners a little bit about that experience for you and reading All Souls.

[Michael Hingston]

Yeah, so the story, for me, that is my first entry point. It was almost a decade ago now, and I was reading that book by Marius, mostly just because he'd been recommended to me as a, as an author who, you know, was a just a really elegant, strong writer and a stylist. And that novel, I don't know if either of you have read it, but it's very well mannered, beautiful and seeming. It so almost dares you to assume that it's non fiction as well. The narrator shares some pretty obvious similarities with Maria's, and yet there's a couple points in the book that sort of stick out as obvious falsehoods. And some of them have to do with the behavior of the narrator. But there's this other piece where he's wandering around Oxford and comes across these booklets, these old poetry pamphlets and small, small print run objects by this poet named John Gosworth. And for the narrator, Gosworth is sort of a cautionary tale because he hears the stories of how Gosworth had all this potential, but then died nearly homeless. And yet there's this one sentence in the book. I think it's only a sentence that says, in addition to being this troubled poet, John Gosworth was the king of Redonda, which was an island in the Caribbean that he'd never seen before. And I remember when I read that, it was a little irritating because to me it sort of dispelled the realism effect of the book. It seemed like, well, why would Marias make this up? Why would he just throw in a detail like this? I didn't know at the time that Gosworth was even a real person. I sort of thought, oh, maybe it's all sort of in this. Maybe he's a stand in or it's a pseudonym or a composite or something. But then this one sentence just seemed so preposterous to me. I was reading it on my commute to work. And so as soon as I got there, I sat down and, you know, fired up Wikipedia like we do. And the moment I fell into the story and realized that I was going to be spending some time thinking about this, this story and this place was because, as you said, I read on this Wikipedia article that not only was Redonda a real island and Gosworth a real poet, and he really did claim to be the king, but Javier Marias himself, simply by virtue of writing about the story, was then named the next king. And there was something about that experience, again, that snowballing effect, the idea that a story contained within the pages of a novel could sort of jump over the border and envelop the author. There's something really charming and, and interesting about it. And I also, I just wanted to understand again, just at first, is it true, you know, is where's the line here? How much of this really happened? And I thought that'd be a simple, you know, lunch hour research task. And I realized pretty quickly that, oh, there's a lot more to it than that. And the answer would take more than a day to figure out.

[Sam Jordison]

And of course, Javier Moraes wasn't the king of Redonda at the time he wrote All Souls, but by the time he wrote a subsequent book, the Dark Back of Time, which I think he wrote, I don't know, you can tell me, Michael, eight years later or something, I think he actually was the king. And that later book kind of looks back at All Souls and the writing of it and his, I guess, nonfiction. But I wondered what you think about why Moraes maybe thought he needed to bring in Galsworth or the kingdom of Redonda into All Souls in the first place.

[Michael Hingston]

It's a great question. I don't know. Maurice is a writer. I mean, I should say he was one of my favorite writers. He recently passed away. But he's very good at showing the thought process of his narrators and always wanted you or teased the idea that these were Marias thoughts, not the narrator's thoughts. His narrators often shared a lot of biographical details. So when I first read All Souls, I had a similar thought of, well, why did he choose all of this and why did he describe Gosworth in this way? And it's interesting now that I've written this sort of history of Redonda, I now when I go back and read those sections in All Souls, what I see is less Marias sort of take on those events. I think I actually know the sources he was reading, and he's just plopping in them as they happen. So I'm actually not sure there's a lot of artistry to those. I think he. I think he's actually just reporting how he discovered Gosworth and the way he got into it. So it may be as simple as it was just on his mind. And that really happened to him in Oxford. There's a couple other scenes in those Oxford novels because the character also shows up later in some other Marias work. There are actual, I guess you'd say, amateur Redondant historians who Marius comes into contact with over the course of those books. And so again, those encounters, I think maybe just are things that happened to him. But the way he sort of he just describes things, it takes on this fictional layer to it. I sort of suspect it's just how it happened to Marias. And he was interested in him on a personal level. He later bought a whole bunch of material from John Gosworth's archives at auction, which was one of the other ways that he came to the attention of the other of the king who passed it on to him. And so obviously there was some personal fascination with him. In Dark Back of Time, he talks about how Gosworth, he has a room in his house that he calls the Gosworth Room. And he feels that, you know, the ghost of Gosworth is hanging around there and he's almost communicating with this man who otherwise he would have had almost nothing in common with.

[Prime Video Ad]

If you're tired of endlessly scrolling through multiple streaming apps to find your favorite movies and shows, then it's time to simplify your entertainment. With subscriptions on Prime Video now you can add over 100 subscriptions, including Macs, Apple TV and Paramount all in one app. Imagine the convenience of accessing all your favorite streaming subscriptions in your Prime Video account with just one login and one password. No more app switching or forgotten credentials. From binge worthy original series to blockbuster movies and live sports, everything you love is at your fingertips. Streamline your streaming today. Check out add on subscriptions on Prime Video.

[Michael Hingston]

This is a Reese's Peanut Butter cup sound experiment. We're looking to find the perfect way to hear Reese's so you'll buy more of them. Here we go. Reese's, Reese's, Reese's, Reese's. Reese's. Hey, get out of here, you little stinker.

[Sam Jordison]

Reese's, Reese's.

[Laurie Feathers]

Reese's Peanut Butter Cups.

[Michael Hingston]

That breathy one sounded very creepy, am I right?

[Sam Jordison]

So can you tell the story of how the kingdom did come to be passed to Marias?

[Michael Hingston]

Yes. So when All Souls was published, it came out in English, I think in 92, but was in Spanish in 89. It was his first novel translated into English and he was doing press about it on an English radio show, I believe. And one of the people listening to it was the then, or we'll say one of the then current kings, which was a friend of Gosworth's named John Wintyson, who accepted the kingdom in Gosworth's will, is what he said is that's how he found out about it. But because he found out about it after Gosworth had passed, he didn't have time to tell Gosworth he did not want this job. Johnman Tyson was a quiet, not theatrical man. He worked from, again, his home and published books about vegetarianism and nonviolence and had sort of a quiet but satisfying life in the country and very reluctantly agreed to take on this job. When Tyson actually, it was more, he liked the literary executor part of it. He was happy to fill out the paperwork, but he didn't want to put on a crown and go to an event or do anything like that. And so one of the reasons that the kingdom fragmented, like I mentioned, is that for the first decade when, when Tyson had the title from 1970 till the end of the 70s, he didn't tell anyone because he didn't want anything to do with this. This part of it. And so that allowed other, other claimants to step up and say, oh, well, if no one's doing it, I'll do it. That sort of thing. So when Tyson agrees to do some events over the course of the 80s, he actually wrote a novel that's sort of a thinly veiled Redondin allegory. And then when. When Tyson's driving around in the 90s, he hears on his radio in the car, this interview with Javier Marias talking about John Gosworth and Win. Tyson thinks, finally, maybe this is someone who will take this thing from me. He's obviously interested in Gosworth. Maybe that's enough. And when Tyson is the one who put up for auction a bunch of this Gosworth material because it had just been gathering dust in his attic. And when he realized that it was Maria's who bought it, that's what really convinced him that Marias might be the right person for the job. And so they had this courtship where. When Tyson was trying to. The risk with this story always is that someone thinks you're. You're a little delusional. So when Tyson's trying to casually mention this to Marias, you know, hey, I don't know if you've heard about this, but I'm actually the king, and it's a hard thing to do. Maybe I need someone else. And Maurice, actually, for a while, doesn't understand what's going on, which is that he's being subtly offered the kingdom. But once he understands that, they reach an agreement in 1997, and they have lunch together in London, and the title is passed over to Marias, who then ruled over it until his passing just last month.

[Sam Jordison]

Yeah, but I'm very conscious that there's so much more to this story. It's one of the things I love about the book. In fact, I started it kind of thinking this book's 300 pages long. More. How are you going to do that about this little island where no one lives? And then, lo and behold, there's just more and more material crammed in in the best possible way. And so when we're going to have to jump quite a lot of that, because I feel like we need to get to the sea chest that you mentioned all that time ago in the prologue, and how that gets.

[Michael Hingston]

Yeah, choose the sea chest. That's right. Yeah. So really, the way the book works is there's an A story and a B story, and the A story is the actual reported historical history of the kingdom from 1880, when SHIELD takes over, pretty much up to 20, 22. And then alongside that, sort of interspersed, is the story of me here in Canada stumbling across the story while reading All Souls and then being pulled into it, trying to get to the bottom of it. And it's sort of a quest narrative about trying to assemble this A very unusually assembled story, trying to put it all in one place for the first time. So in researching the book, I realized there were two different types of claimants to the throne. And I call them the. The map and the territory, which is sort of a riff on a Borges idea and goes back before him. But the idea being that there are some people who claim to be the king or are interested in the story of the kingdom because of the map or the. The sort of story that's enveloping the place itself. It's about, you know, this is what John Gosworth liked. When he was sitting around in pubs. He actually, he never went to Redonda. He had no interest in going there. It could have been anywhere for him. And then you have this other group of people who I call the territory, and those are people who word eventually makes it back to the Caribbean that, hey, did you hear that there's a king of Redonda? This island that people just treat as this navigational hazard more than anything. The cruise ships have to sort of veer around. And once that story makes it back, some locals start to think, well, why would someone on the other side of the world, you know, we just got rid of the English rule in so much of the Caribbean. Why are we letting these guys just say they're the king of this little piece of it now? So then they decide, well, we're going to say that we're the king, or someone else will hear about it and say, well, I'm going to go invade the island because I'm sailing past it and there's no one there to stop me. And so in the prologue when I, you know, you hear that story of the. The document dramatically found inside the sea chest. This is a group of people in the area and Michael Howarth, the man who discovers that he is now King Michael the Grey of Redonda. He, his friend, the man he inherited it from, was one of those people from the territory. He was a eccentric guy, Canadian, actually, who found fused or glued a crown on top of his car and would drive it around the mainland of Antigua. So you knew if King Bob was in the area. And he loved to just kick up his heels at the local cafe and regale tourists with stories of his kingdom, which were, you know, maybe. I'm not sure how many of them are real, but very good storyteller, dramatic guy, and in a funny way, sort of in keeping with that Gosworthian spirit, even though they. They didn't know each other and are actually from rival sort of branches. So King Michael is one of the people who. I spoke to him during my research, and he was a really helpful person for understanding some of. I don't want to say tensions between it, but again, there's this idea of truth and fantasy, and the kingdom really lives in the middle of it. So when I would talk to kings, they're usually in character. And one of the things I was trying to figure out was, well, how much. To what extent did they believe this? Are they in character the whole time? Are they going to drop it when they talk to me? If I say I'm a journalist, are they going to, you know, immediately just, you know, take a step back and say, I'm not actually claiming to be the king, lest an international incident break out? And. And Michael Howarth, you know, was very much in keeping with the other kings, where he had this twinkle in his eye the whole time you talk to him. And there's this sense of playing along with the story. You know, they all have normal lives, these kings, but the kingdom is this chance to indulge themselves and imagine this sort of fanciful, ultimate life for themselves.

[Sam Jordison]

And talking of the Canadian connection, we need to bring in the fact that you have visited. And I really want to hear about what that experience was like.

[Michael Hingston]

Yeah, it's funny because early on, I didn't realize this was going to be a book. I really thought it was just a fun diversion. You know, we all have those things that we just Google when we. Late at night, after the kids are asleep or whatever. And so Redonda, for me was for several years was that. But as soon as I realized it was going to be a book, I realized I had become very fixated on this, the map side of things. Reading the books, learning about the poetry pamphlets, buying up these, you know, rare and unusual booklets, that was really fun and interesting. And I thought, well, it's not really a book. It'd be fitting as an ending, I thought, to try and get there and try and do the thing that so few of these kings had done, which was try and climb to the top. The funny thing is all of the place names on the island relate actually to the kingdom, even though so many of the kings have never been there. There was one excursion in the 70s, and they sort of jokingly mapped the island, and everything's named after the previous kings and the publishing companies and all that sort of stuff. And those names stuck so weirdly. The island on any map you look at. The map is the map, in a way. And I decided I wanted to go see it for myself. So I was able to go down there. And I don't want to give away too much of what happens down there, but I was able to get to the area and hire a boat to take me out there. And it wasn't until I was sort of arranging for the boat to. To be set up that the, the captain of the boat said, oh, you're interested in Redonda. That's interesting. I'm actually the king of Verdun. And then, and he was my guide, Chris Harris took me out there and we tried to climb to the top.

[Sam Jordison]

Awesome.

Yeah, that's a great story. I don't know. It's interesting that there's kind of this literary lineage to the royal house of Redonda, and then there's all of these kind of very seemingly eccentric kind of pretenders to the crown. And you kind of, you give us a good taste for both sides of that. Michael, when I was reading the book, I guess I felt that there was in some way, some ways a parallel between kind of your project here, researching and writing the book, and then the occupations and passions of these, of these literary kings, you know, the, the book collecting and exploring this kind of space between hard fact and fiction, which certainly I think Scheele and Maraes do to some extent, and maybe Gosworth too, But I don't know. Is that a parallel that I'm just imagining or did at any point in time when you're working on this, did you kind of see it as well?

[Michael Hingston]

Yeah, I think it certainly became clear to me the more I worked on it. And I say that maybe with a caveat being that a lot of these kings are strange men, downright unpleasant at times. And I hope I'm not too far down that parallel. But I think it's also true that the reason the kingdom appealed to them was. I mentioned this a little bit, but it's this idea of an alternate fantasy life. Someone like Gosworth, certainly the person who took to the kingdom the most, had trouble with friendships, had certainly had trouble with, you know, female romantic relationships, and also was dealing with a pretty unpleasant or depressing day to day life, especially towards the end. And so Radonda became this almost like a clubhouse or a tree house in the backyard. It was this place he could just ignore the realities of his life and come up with this other way of living where only his friends and people he liked were around. Their friendships were permanent because they were all part of the same club. He couldn't be left behind. And, you know, his physical health wasn't a factor. It was sort of a, you know, a Treasure island or Peter Pan sort of like a boy's adventure feel to it at times, I think there's a type of person who is just a sucker for that sort of thing. This story involves almost exclusively men, but I don't know that it's. It appeals exclusively to men. I think there's a certain type of person who hears this story and just they get it right away. There's also a type of person who hears this story and thinks that's stupid. Why would anyone care about this? I fall in the first category and I think, you know, readers of this book who, who like book collecting, who like that sort of keeping a spirit of fun and playfulness into adulthood and into like a society maybe where, you know, that's not always welcomed or appreciated. When I read Gosworth walking around the pubs of London in, you know, sort of everyone's wearing a suit in post war London and he's acting like this goofy king. There is this sort of rebellious, playful spirit that I find really appealing. And so it's. I certainly do feel a kinship to the kings in certain respects, but. And they've all run the kingdom sort of differently. So I think I admire different things about them. By the time you get to Maria's running the kingdom, it was much more about. He was. He founded a publishing company to bring works from Redondan writers into Spanish for the first time. And he founded a prize that he gave away to foster international cultural associations and friendships. And so I appreciate. I run a small publishing company on the side as well. And so there's a part of Marias Redondant project that I respond to. And so it's amazing how all of the kings have run the kingdom in a different way, but the spirit is more or less intact all the way through. That's one of the reasons I think the story is so interesting is it's maintained that spirit despite all 150 years of handoffs.

[Sam Jordison]

The point that you make about the story of the kingdom being male dominated is true. But I was taken by the fact that Maria had a whole royal court, so to speak, and there were a lot of women on that royal court, a lot of authors as Byatt, Maria Warner. And it's also charming, I think that they accepted their positions on the court. They kind of went along with it as well. And you have some remarks that some of them made that, that are quite. That are quite funny.

[Michael Hingston]

Yeah, it's. I think that's the other appeal to it is that a lot of these cultural figures, you know, you don't think of them necessarily as being funny or playful people in that way. And. But again, they. There's something in the story that allows people to let their guard down a bit, and you do get a different perspective on them. Again, speaking to you from Canada, the one that comes up here all the time is Alice Monroe.

[Sam Jordison]

Yes.

[Michael Hingston]

Who was named the Duchess of Ontario. And Alice Munroe doesn't give. Doesn't speak to the media really anymore. Pretty private person. And yet she issued a statement when she was named to the Redondin court. Again, very much playing into it, saying, oh, I'm so pleased to be named to the court. I'll do my best to live up to its standards and ideals, you know, that sort of thing. And you just think of all the things to get Alice Munroe to go back on the record. The kingdom of Redonda, you wouldn't think. And yet it has that power to pull a little bit of playfulness out of people. So I agree, and I agree with your point about Maria and being more open to women in the court. It's a noticeable lack in the early years, and so it's nice to see it being counterbalanced a bit now.

[Sam Jordison]

And what about the future of Redonda?

[Michael Hingston]

This is the question. The bittersweet or sad part of it is that I didn't expect this to be a topical question when the book came out. But Maria, he ran the kingdom from 1997 until, you know, for 25 years. And then two days before the book came out, he passed away. So the short answer is, I don't know. We're still waiting word for, you know, did he name someone as a successor? I know he was. He was ill for a little while, and I also know he took the story seriously enough, I think, or the appropriate amount of seriousness to have that question in mind. So, given the history of dramatic succession stories and mysterious documents found in various places, I am hopeful that we will get an answer, hopefully soon of what will happen next. Unfortunately, if Marius didn't name a successor, then his branch of the kingdom probably sort of fades away. But as I mentioned before, there are plenty of others out there who are more than happy to pick up the slack.

[Sam Jordison]

Well, Michael, it's been a real treat and joy to talk to you about this book, and I'm a huge Javier Maraes fan, as the listeners of the show are sick of hearing about probably. So that really made this story very, very compelling to me and also a little sad. You know, I like the idea of Javier Moraes writing all these wonderful novels and then also wearing this crown around his flat. Maybe so it is sad that he's he's so recently left us. But this is a wonderful book, Michael. Congratulations on it. I'd like to encourage all of our listeners to go out to their local independent bookstore and purchase Try not to Be the Curious History of the Kingdom of Redonda by Michael Hingston, published by Biblioasis in Windsor, Canada. Thank you so much, Michael.

[Michael Hingston]

Oh, thank you so much. Such a pleasure to be here.

[We Came to the Forest Ad]

A few miles from the glass spires of Midtown Atlanta lies the south river forest. In 2021 and 2022, the woods became a home to activists from all over the country who gathered to stop the nearby construction of a massive new police training facility nicknamed Cop city.

[Michael Hingston]

At approximately 9:00 this morning, as law enforcement was moving through various sectors of the property, an individual without warning shot a Georgia State Patrol trooper.

[We Came to the Forest Ad]

This is We Came to the Forest, a story about resistance.

[Sam Jordison]

The abolitionist mission isn't done until every prison is empty and shut down.

[We Came to the Forest Ad]

Love and fellowship.

[Michael Hingston]

It was probably the happiest I've ever.

[We Came to the Forest Ad]

Been in my life and the lengths will go to protect the things we hold closest to our hearts. Follow We Came to the Forest on the Wondery app or wherever he you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of We Came to the Forest early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus.