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- [00:00]
Narrator/Host
There are more ways than ever to listen to History Daily ad free. Listen with Wondry plus in the Wondery app as a member of Noiser plus at noiser.com or in Apple Podcasts. Or you can get all of History Daily plus other fantastic history podcasts@intohristory.com I'm having a hard time writing this little intro. Not normally, I try to introduce our Saturday Matinee podcast in the context of my life or our shared history or something that links yesterday with today. And I'm going to try and do the same thing here. But today's topic is centered on political violence. And here in the United States lately we've seen recent and horrible acts of ideologically motivated killings that has me and probably many of you, wondering what is going on. I have no answer except the crooked consolation that political violence has always been with us, sometimes reaching heights that fall or eclipse our current tragedies. We have the assassinations and violence of 1968, leaving Martin Luther King Jr. And Robert Kennedy murdered and the Chicago streets stained with blood. Following that, in an 18 month period from 1971 to 1972, there were more than 2,500 bombings in the United States, almost five a day. Another spate of bombings throughout The World War I era gave way to the Red Summer in 1919, a fever of racial massacres in dozens of cities that likely left hundreds de and we've had four US Presidents assassinated, making the American chief executive the most dangerous job in the country purely in terms of the percent who survive it. So yeah, American political violence is not new. And what we're seeing now, inconceivably to us today, perhaps is not extraordinary by comparison. Still, it's reprehensible and shocking because, thankfully, political violence is still rare. On today's Saturday matinee, we're bringing you another example of politically motivated violence, another rash of bombings that began in July 1996 with a pipe bomb that shattered the mood of celebration at the Atlanta Olympics. American Shrapnel tells the story of these bombings, the misidentification of the culprit, and the multi year manhunt for the real person responsible. I hope you enjoy While you're listening, be sure to search for and follow American Shrapnel. We put a link in the show notes to make it easy for you. We're well into the back half of the calendar and these cooler days call for layers that last, and Quinn's is a go to for quality essentials that feel cozy, look refined, and won't blow your budget think $50 Mongolian cashmere, premium denim that fits like a dream and luxe outerwear you'll wear year after year. These are the pieces that'll turn into your fall uniform or Quince's wool coats. They look designer level but cost a fraction of the price because Quince partners directly with top tier ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, delivering luxury quality pieces at half the price of similar brands. It's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that feels smart, stylish and effortless. And it's not just for adults. Recently we updated my daughter's back to school look with a new hoodie, some wide leg, fleece pants and even a bracelet that she's yet to take off. Find your fall staples at Quint's? Go to quince.comhistorydaily for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.comhistorydaily to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comhistorydaily the WNBA playoffs are in full swing and Tommy Alters the Young man in the three brings you closer to the game. Get complete WNBA playoff coverage as Tommy sits down with the game's biggest stars and delivers unmatched analysis. The Young Men in the 3's WNBA playoff coverage is presented by Quest Nutrition. From irresistibly crunchy protein chips to rich chocolatey protein bars, these treats make giving in feel so good. Quest Big on protein, low on sugar, huge on flavor. Shop Quest on Amazon@Amazon.com quest nutrition and enjoy all the WNBA action on the Young man and the three Wherever you.
- [04:20]
Becca Andrews
Get your podcasts, this podcast contains some gruesome descriptions of violence. Listener discretion is advised.
- [04:42]
John Archibald
It's hard to describe the magic of that Southern summer night in 1996 when Muhammad Ali hobbled on stage to captivate the world. He was weakened by Parkinson's, diminished in a lot of ways, but still the greatest. He struggled, but lit the cauldron to open Atlanta's Centennial Olympic Games.
- [05:07]
Becca Andrews
Sports Illustrated would call it one of the top moments in all of sports history.
- [05:12]
John Archibald
It was even bigger down here where I am. It was supposed to be a chance to welcome the world to a new south, to show what this region was and what it wasn't. The Centennial Olympic Games started with a well, they couldn't have started any better than they did.
- [05:29]
Becca Andrews
The Games were everything Atlanta dreamed they would be. And then, a few days later, the unthinkable happened. A little after 1am on July 27, 1996. Atlanta police got a phone call, a warning.
- [05:55]
Narrator/Host
There is a bomb in Centennial park. You have 30 minutes.
- [06:02]
John Archibald
That phone call was a lie. They would in fact get only 20 minutes as a band called Jack Mack and the Heart Attack jammed in a Centennial park packed with people. It really happened.
- [06:18]
Narrator/Host
Wow.
- [06:19]
John Archibald
It was a huge pipe bomb. Unprecedented 40 pounds. Detonated by a wind up clock and built to kill hundreds.
- [06:31]
Becca Andrews
Alice Hawthorne died instantly when a nail an inch and a half long hit her like a bullet in the head. Her 14 year old daughter stood beside her as shrapnel ripped through Alice's body in six places.
- [06:46]
John Archibald
111 people in that park were hurt.
- [06:49]
Becca Andrews
The games had changed. The spell was broken. Bill Clinton in the White House was quick to call it what it was, terrorism.
- [06:58]
John Archibald
Good morning.
- [07:01]
Mike Wisnant
The bombing at Centennial Olympic park this.
- [07:03]
John Archibald
Morning was an evil act of terror. It was aimed at the innocent people who were participating in the Olympic games.
- [07:11]
Mike Wisnant
And in the spirit of the Olympics.
- [07:14]
John Archibald
An act of cowardice that stands in sharp contrast to the courage of the Olympic athletes. It was only the beginning.
- [07:29]
Becca Andrews
And that's when the bomb blast went off and it hit me and the.
- [07:33]
John Archibald
Blood was still on the wall.
- [07:35]
Becca Andrews
It never came off.
- [07:40]
Narrator/Host
He would either be famous or infamous. I just think the son of a bitch was mean.
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John Archibald
I think he was evil.
- [07:47]
Narrator/Host
He was either gonna do something great or he was gonna do something that.
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Becca Andrews
Was just gonna shock the hell out of everybody.
- [07:54]
Narrator/Host
There's no way he was not somehow.
- [07:56]
Chris Edson
Assisted in his years on the run.
- [07:58]
Narrator/Host
A little bit.
- [07:58]
David Namius
We were looking around for people with military training, anti government views, and we had easily, you know, a dozen suspects who fit all those things.
- [08:14]
John Archibald
Hi, I'm John Archibald. Becca.
- [08:16]
Becca Andrews
I'm Becca Andrews and this is American Shrapnel, the story of a homegrown serial bomber and the influences, the philosophers and preachers, the terrorists and thieves that radicalized him and God knows how many others.
- [08:41]
John Archibald
I have some pretty strong feelings about that time. I was a reporter in what I thought was my prime in the age of newspapers. I was a news guy, but got to cover the Olympic soccer prelims in Birmingham, Alabama, about two hours from Atlanta. I remember that bomb like a lot of people remember. 9, 11. We all know that sense of anger and heartbreak when something we think beautiful is sullied or destroyed. I was wrecked, but I had no idea how this bombing, this bomber would come to affect my life and my work for the next decade.
- [09:14]
Becca Andrews
I was five so the Olympics couldn't compete with whatever mischief I was up to. But weirdly, what took place that morning would come to affect my life and my work. Because what happened in Atlanta wasn't just the first in a string of bombings across the South. It was not just the start of a terrorism spree that would trigger the largest manhunt in American history. It was a critical moment in the rise of anti abortion violence and the kind of Christian nationalism that's gone mainstream. I've been covering it for years now.
- [09:44]
John Archibald
It all started down in Atlanta with that blast in that crowded park. This is David Namius, former U.S. attorney in Atlanta and former chief justice of the Georgia Supreme Court.
- [10:00]
David Namius
He set his bomb, which was the biggest pipe bomb the FBI had ever seen. And it had a steel plate like all his bombs did, to direct the blast, and it was packed with shrapnel. He actually put the nails end to end so that he could get more on there.
- [10:20]
Becca Andrews
It could have been a lot worse. A lot more people would have died if not for dumb luck, drunk kids, and a slandered security guard named Richard Jewell.
- [10:31]
David Namius
I think there were about 10,000 people in that pit area in front of the stage. And so, you know, the clear design was to shoot shrapnel kind of through a crowd of people. But between the time he left the bag and the time Richard Jewell spotted it, this group of kids who were working at the Speedo temp came by. They had been drinking and they saw the backpack. Some of them thought it might have something they could steal or some alcohol in it. And one of them kind of kicked it and it tipped over. And so it tipped on its back and most of the shrapnel shot up instead of out. But for that, you might have had 1,000 people injured and 100 killed.
- [11:20]
Becca Andrews
People don't even realize they could have been saved from death or dismemberment by the Speedo Boys.
- [11:27]
John Archibald
And we have to talk a little about Richard Jewell here. He was a former cop working the Olympics as a security guard. He spotted a suspicious bag and called it in. At first he was hailed as a hero, but man turned quickly.
- [11:42]
David Namius
Jewel had some squirrely things about his past. I mean, he had. Had. He had been in law enforcement. He was clearly kind of a wannabe officer. He was over aggressive in places. He had been fired, I think, from a job at Piedmont College and had ended up and then kind of posed or presented himself as a cop in an incident where he was living. He had asked some questions about the tower, about whether or not, you know, it could withstand an explosion, as I recall. So there were some things that were unusual.
- [12:21]
Becca Andrews
Investigators seized on all that. It reminded them of a case at the 84 Olympics. A disgruntled LA cop planted a pipe bomb so that he could be the hero that found it.
- [12:32]
John Archibald
But at the end of the day, Richard Jewell was not the bomber. He really was a hero. And his reward was that he lost his job and reputation.
- [12:42]
Narrator/Host
Richard Jewell, the man the FBI and the media zeroed in on as the principal suspect in the Atlanta Olympic bombing, says it's all a lie.
- [12:53]
John Archibald
He later ended up getting settlements from news agencies that had called him a bomber, including CNN and NBC.
- [13:00]
Becca Andrews
It's a sad story. He died really young. They put a memorial to him in Centennial park near the one for Alice Hawthorne. But as investigators focused on Jewel, the real bomber slipped away.
- [13:16]
John Archibald
The feds started out looking for people with extremist views that might hate cops or the so called new order. They found hundreds who fit that bill in Georgia alone. They were looking for a needle and a stack full of needles. They issued a call for photographs and videos taken in Centennial park before and during the bombing.
- [13:37]
David Namius
I think we had like 12 or 13,000 sets of photos and videos that you had to try to piece together to figure out who was where. And there was this room where they had kind of created a printed stuff out and created a 3D background, you know, where you'd get one family's pictures here and you'd see some people in the background and then realize, you know, who are those people? And identify them from another set of pictures. It was great work. Didn't actually produce too much.
- [14:08]
Becca Andrews
All that effort produced was one blurry image of a man sitting on a bench on the spot where the bomb was placed. NASA enhanced it and the feds estimated the man's height and weight and took note of his clothes. Cargo shorts, hiking boots with socks and a T shirt.
- [14:24]
John Archibald
They were pretty sure it was the bomber, but it didn't much matter. He was unrecognizable. The feds didn't know his name, so they gave him one.
- [14:34]
David Namius
We had a wanted poster that just said, you know, looking for blob man. Because it was just a black blob.
- [14:41]
John Archibald
The Blobman. Unknown, dangerous, and still out there.
- [14:47]
Becca Andrews
Things were dark and the search was going nowhere. And then two more bombs went off. One at an abortion clinic in the Atlanta suburbs and another at a lesbian bar. Was it the same bomber?
- [15:03]
John Archibald
A copycat? Things were similar, but different. These bombs were evolving.
- [15:09]
Becca Andrews
Investigators were no closer to solving any of them than they were that morning in Centennial park.
- [15:15]
John Archibald
Until, until Birmingham. January 29, 1998. A year and a half after the Olympic 1998, Chris Edson was in grad school at UAB, the University of Alabama at Birmingham. He was newly married, studying occupational therapy. And he had a routine. Each day he dropped his wife off at the VA and parked on the hill above campus. Each day he made the trek down to class, passing the new woman all women clinic and protesters he had come to recognize.
- [15:59]
Chris Edson
I mean, this was part of my routine every day. I mean, so I looked back over my shoulder, checked for traffic when I was essentially off the intersection of 10th Avenue and 17th. And that's when the blast happened. And the shock of it blew my clothes back. I mean, like a, like a hurricane strength wind gust. I mean, it was like I was. That startled me. And then all that, it's like time seemed to slow down at that point. Like I heard glass crashing to my left. Split second after that. So I, I turned and looked and the Ronald McDonald House was across the street at the time. And I guess shrapnel from the explosion had had hit glass and had knocked out a window. And then immediately I looked back to the right, big plume of smoke rising. I mean, I knew, I mean, it hit me instantly what had happened.
- [17:13]
Narrator/Host
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- [18:17]
Becca Andrews
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- [19:04]
John Archibald
Absolutely. Birmingham is a rusty old steel town and its downtown sits in a bowl of a valley on the north side of Red Mountain where they used to dig for iron ore. On the mountain stands Vulcan, the city's symbol, the world's largest cast iron statue. He is the Roman God of the forge, and he looks over the city.
- [19:26]
Becca Andrews
At the foothills of Red Mountain between UAB and Vulcan is a quirky neighborhood known as Southside. Back then it was home to several women's clinics. In 1988, the Anti Abortion group Operation Rescue targeted Birmingham for protest. Greg Garrison covered years of conflict as a reporter for the Birmingham News.
- [19:47]
Narrator/Host
It was hundreds of arrests and it took hundreds of police officers to handle it. So it's a huge story.
- [19:53]
John Archibald
There were a cadre of people who picketed every day.
- [19:59]
Narrator/Host
They would be, sometimes they rotated, sometimes.
- [20:01]
John Archibald
They would be at Summit, sometimes they.
- [20:04]
David Namius
Would be at New Woman All Woman.
- [20:07]
John Archibald
The owner of the New Woman All Women clinic was Diane Derzis, who became the local face of abortion rights and a lightning rod.
- [20:15]
Becca Andrews
They had picketed us, they had gone.
- [20:17]
Narrator/Host
To doctors homes, they'd sent things in the mail. They'd, you know we were going to.
- [20:24]
Becca Andrews
Die, we should die for killing babies.
- [20:28]
John Archibald
She was really tough as nails.
- [20:29]
Narrator/Host
She was, she was really a tough lady. The anti abortion protesters called her Dragon Lady.
- [20:38]
John Archibald
You know, that was her nickname.
- [20:40]
Narrator/Host
And yet they kind of had this.
- [20:43]
John Archibald
Almost friendly rapport, but it was like.
- [20:46]
Narrator/Host
Poison rhetoric all the time.
- [20:48]
John Archibald
You know, they would say mean things.
- [20:51]
Narrator/Host
To her and she would say mean things right back. So there was always that tension going.
- [20:56]
John Archibald
On between her and the protesters.
- [20:59]
Narrator/Host
And yet she knew them all. They all knew her.
- [21:03]
Becca Andrews
Derzis was out of town the morning of January 29, but the clinic was preparing to open as usual.
- [21:09]
John Archibald
A regular protester named Menzer Chadwick was already there by 7:30. He said hi to Robert Sandy Sanderson, an off duty police officer making rounds as the security guard. Chadwick saw nurse Emily Lyons arrive, though he didn't know her by name. A regular day, a routine. Remember this is when Edson walked By on his way to class.
- [21:38]
Narrator/Host
Just froze.
- [21:40]
Chris Edson
Like, you know, you never, you never really know what you're gonna do in a situation like that until you're in a situation like that. And I just froze. I mean, I just stood there and had no idea what to do. And then a few seconds later, someone, I mean, seconds, I mean, it could have been almost instantly, but there was someone running down the hill, 17th street, saying, Call 91 1. And that kind of jogged me out of the whole thing. I didn't have a cell phone at the time. I was like, oh, yeah, that's always the first step. Call 91 1. So it's like I can at least sound the alarm for that. So I, I ran around screaming, you know, call 91 1. And I don't even know who I was saying it to or, I mean, anybody that would listen.
- [22:38]
John Archibald
He watched a protester, probably Chadwick, pack up his placards and go. He remembers things he'd like to forget.
- [22:47]
Chris Edson
It's hard to describe. Bewilderment, shock. And that's when really the, it started to fully set in. I saw Emily Lyons at that point. She's curled up with her, she's facing the door, so her back was to the street. She's fetal position. I mean, I could see that her legs were burnt and that her clothes had been blown off at her, at her legs. And I realized, like, the debris, like, part of the debris was clothing, like, blown into, like, almost like confetti everywhere, mixed in with, you know, rock and dirt and metal.
- [23:38]
Becca Andrews
We don't mean to be grizzly, and neither does Edson. He describes things that disturb him even a quarter of a century later. But it's important to know how horrific and indiscriminate these bombs could be.
- [23:52]
Chris Edson
And then I, I, I saw Sandy Sanderson. I mean, his, it was, it was gruesome. I mean, he had, I, I couldn't, it took me a second to realize it was, it was a person. And I didn't know, I couldn't tell if it was a man or a woman. I mean, like, chest seeping, chest wounds. Like, his face was just like unrecognizable bloody messages. And at some point, he sat up too, and spewed up blood. He didn't, he did not, I, you know, I, he did not appear to die to me right away or, I mean, it was almost instant. I mean, I don't know. He, he sat up and I, I, I turned away.
- [25:08]
John Archibald
Obviously, you're still very affected by this.
- [25:10]
Narrator/Host
Is it?
- [25:11]
Becca Andrews
Yeah.
- [25:13]
Narrator/Host
Sorry.
- [25:13]
Chris Edson
But yeah, no, it's all right. I feel like it's important. Otherwise, you know, otherwise I wouldn't be here.
- [25:22]
John Archibald
But Edson can describe what happened after the blast, but what happened before? How did it get there?
- [25:36]
Becca Andrews
The bomb we now know was hidden in monkey grass near the clinic door. It was built in a tackle box and camouflaged with plastic leaves. But it still caught Sanderson's attention. Darzes and Scott Morrow, then the head of clinic security, piece it together.
- [25:53]
Narrator/Host
The reason Sandy, he got out of.
- [25:55]
David Namius
His car is to protect Emily.
- [25:58]
Mike Wisnant
He did.
- [25:58]
Jermaine Hughes
He.
- [25:58]
Narrator/Host
He was waiting for somebody to get there and he got out of his car and he walked up the sidewalk and you know, there's a side stairs there that Emily came up the side stairs.
- [26:08]
Mike Wisnant
And then Sandy walked up from the.
- [26:10]
Narrator/Host
Front and saw the plant. She parked her car and she was walking to the door to key it in.
- [26:17]
Becca Andrews
And at that time, he evidently saw the potted something that wasn't there before and leaned down with the stick.
- [26:26]
Mike Wisnant
She comes in the driveway, comes up.
- [26:29]
Narrator/Host
The stairs and is looking at turning the key and looking at Sandy who's poking the bomb. But that's when the game was up.
- [26:44]
Becca Andrews
This bomb was packed with nails and directed by a sheet of stick steel. Like the Atlanta bombs to blast the waiting room of the new Woman All Women clinic, it was aimed at the very spot where women and families would soon arrive.
- [26:58]
John Archibald
Could it have been the Blob Man? Maybe. But it was different from those bombs too. It didn't have a clock timer. It was detonated by remote control. We know now that a man stood behind a tree just up the street. He watched Emily arrive. He watched Sandy walk toward the tackle box. He watched him poke at it with his stick.
- [27:23]
Becca Andrews
And then that man pushed a button on a homemade remote control device. He blew them up in cold blood.
- [27:36]
John Archibald
They'd find bits of Sandy's uniform in the dirt for years to come. His blood stained the walls of the building until it was eventually torn down.
- [27:46]
Becca Andrews
Emily Lyons was shredded beyond recognition. They'd pull shrapnel from her body for years too.
- [27:52]
John Archibald
Lyons survived thanks to some amazing emergency room work at UAB and more than 50 other surgeries since. Bomb sniffing dogs searched for explosives, but the residue from the blast coated everything, sending those dogs into a frenzy.
- [28:06]
Becca Andrews
Police immediately looked to the protesters. Within hours, Menzer Chadwick sat in an interview room at the Birmingham Police Department, writing his statement by hand with a pen and pad and a big magnifying glass to help him see. Police Detective John Ennis interviewed him.
- [28:27]
John Archibald
We're all sorry it happened to him.
- [28:29]
Narrator/Host
But that's what we got.
- [28:30]
Jermaine Hughes
That's why we're asking you so many questions.
- [28:33]
Narrator/Host
That's why we got to know what happened to him.
- [28:36]
Becca Andrews
He wasn't there about two minutes. It's just like the audio is really rough. But when Chadwick learns Sanderson is dead, he begins to cry. Ennis closes in. He asks if Chadwick put anything in front of the clinic.
- [28:56]
John Archibald
The answer is unintelligible.
- [28:58]
Becca Andrews
Ennis asks again, and Chadwick says, no.
- [29:02]
John Archibald
I'm worried about his soul.
- [29:08]
Becca Andrews
Ennis, who's ready to end this interview, responds.
- [29:15]
John Archibald
His soul's fine.
- [29:21]
Narrator/Host
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- [29:51]
Becca Andrews
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Becca Andrews
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- [31:05]
John Archibald
That remote trigger made this bombing different from those in Atlanta. There was another big difference. A young man who to this day Refuses to acknowledge publicly that he is a hero.
- [31:18]
Becca Andrews
Jermaine Hughes.
- [31:19]
John Archibald
Jermaine Hughes.
- [31:26]
Jermaine Hughes
Today's date is 1:29 of 98.
- [31:28]
Narrator/Host
The time now is 10:24 hours. My name is Detective James Blanton. Present with me is Agent Dana Lee.
- [31:37]
Mike Wisnant
Yes, sir.
- [31:38]
Narrator/Host
From atf. We're going to conduct an interview with Jermaine Hughes. He's a witness in the bombing which occurred over in the 1600 block of 10th Avenue south this morning. Mr. Hughes, this morning, can you tell me where you were and what you witnessed this morning?
- [32:03]
Jermaine Hughes
Okay, what I witnessed, suddenly there was this loud boom. I mean, it was loud and distinctive. I was inside my dorm washing my clothes and I heard the boom. So, you know, I was like, what was that? Looked out the window. I mean, it didn't sound like a gunshot. It sounded like a kabloom. I mean, it would sound like more distinctive than a gunshot to me.
- [32:23]
Becca Andrews
Jermaine Hughes was more than a witness. He was the witness who changed everything. He may have single handedly prevented more bombings, more injuries, more death. Now, Hughes has not spoken publicly about this for almost a quarter century. He had not responded to multiple interview requests for this podcast. So the tape you hear is from his interviews with the police.
- [32:48]
John Archibald
It's remarkable. He was a UAB student washing his clothes at his dorm when the explosion occurred. He heard the blast and looked up. People were running toward the smoke that curled up from the clinic. One man was walking away.
- [33:04]
Becca Andrews
Hughes described a man in a black hat with long dark hair that might have been a wig. He wore an army jacket and carried a book bag that seemed suspicious. When the man took off in the other direction without ever looking back, Hughes was sure something was wrong.
- [33:20]
Jermaine Hughes
To me, I thought it looked kind of weird because this guy, he never. I mean, it's just like he was just walking. He didn't turn around to see what happened because it's boom. I knew if it was that loud on the inside, how loud it must have been on the outside.
- [33:30]
Becca Andrews
A lot of people would have just wondered about that or maybe told the police later, Jermaine did something different upon.
- [33:38]
Jermaine Hughes
Looking out and I see him, you know, keep on walking. And so I don't know what made me do this, but I was just like, this guy looks strange. That was my first thought.
- [33:48]
John Archibald
Jermaine left his clothes, he left his dorm, and he followed at first on foot and then in his car, hoping against hope his leaky transmission would hold up.
- [33:59]
Becca Andrews
So this part is really amazing to me. I mean, at that point I would have just said the Hell with it. And gone home. Convinced myself I was acting crazy.
- [34:07]
John Archibald
But he followed the man through the neighborhood of Birmingham Southside, up the mountain by the statue of Vulcan.
- [34:14]
Becca Andrews
Hughes kept his distance, hoping he wouldn't be seen.
- [34:18]
Jermaine Hughes
I don't think he saw me because it was just the way I just never really came upon him and just like, look at his face like that, you know, I was just like off back in the distance, like an observer, just observing, observing. He just kept on walking.
- [34:28]
John Archibald
It was hard. The guy ducked behind apartments and came out looking different than he went in. He pulled clothes out of a plastic bag. He lost the wig and put on dark sunglasses. Hughes described a backpack that at times looked empty and at times looked full. Once, not for the last time, Hughes simply lost the guy. This is Mike Wisnant, who had become lead prosecutor on this case.
- [34:54]
Mike Wisnant
Jerraine Hughes drives by. He sees a guy about the same size walking through the parking lot and going onto the sidewalk and going easterly direction. But he notices that he doesn't have an army jacket on any longer and his hair is shorter, but he's still got a cap on and he's got a black backpack, but he's also got a blue bag. And he. After a moment, he realizes this is the same guy. He can tell by the way he's walking and his height and size. So by this time, Jermaine gets a little ahead of the guy and again, fairly narrow streets. And Jermaine pulls his car over and gets out and lifts the hood like he's having car trouble.
- [35:40]
Jermaine Hughes
We looked at each other just for a second, and then he just kept on walking.
- [35:43]
Becca Andrews
Hughes knew he needed to tell the cops about this. Cell phones were rare then. The world was a different place. So he tried to get help from people in the neighborhood.
- [35:52]
Mike Wisnant
He sees two ladies that are coming out of the house to get in their car. And he gets out of. Out of his car and he goes up to them and says, I need your help. I need to call the police. They're somewhat skeptical of this young man, this African American young man who's come up to them. They're Caucasian. And they say, well, we'll call the police when we get to work.
- [36:16]
John Archibald
It happened over and over. He got a man to roll down the window to talk to him.
- [36:22]
Jermaine Hughes
I stopped, I said, hey, man, could you stop for a second? Could you stop for a second? I said, it's important, it's important. I said, I saw there was an explosion over there, and I'm following this guy and I don't know anything about it. I mean, I don't know if this is the right situation or not, but I was like, could you call a cop and tell him, like, just tell him to start, like. You know, like, just look at this era, just in this area. He's like, I gotta go to school. I gotta go to class. He just drove off. I'm like, oh, come on now.
- [36:44]
John Archibald
But he kept at it. There's some static on that tape, but you can hear that. Hughes was still wired during that interview. Just hours after the bombing. He was pumping with adrenaline as he had been when he again hopped out to ask a woman in a blue car to call the cops.
- [37:01]
Jermaine Hughes
I, like, put my hand up, you know, so she wouldn't know I was a robber. And I was like, ma', am, can I. I mean, can I talk to you like this? And she's like, slow, slowly. I was like. And I told her the situation, like, as fast as I could. I mean, this building blew up, and I followed this guy. I think this guy did it. And then she was like, well, you can keep following him if you think he did. And then, I mean, I couldn't. I couldn't. I couldn't find him.
- [37:25]
Becca Andrews
It could have ended there. It's crazy. It didn't. After all that, he'd lost the guy. The cops weren't close. He couldn't get anyone to help.
- [37:34]
John Archibald
He drove to the top of Red Mountain, right above the city limit sign separating Birmingham from the suburb of Homewood.
- [37:40]
Becca Andrews
He stopped at a McDonald's and called the police himself. He told the dispatcher a story as he talked on the phone. A man eating his breakfast, Hughes would later describe him as. The man in the suit began to pay attention.
- [37:55]
John Archibald
That man was a young law student named Jeff Tickle. He'd ordered hotcakes and sausage and a cup of coffee, and he heard Hughes, still talking on the phone, yell, that's.
- [38:06]
Jermaine Hughes
The guy right there. That's the guy right there.
- [38:13]
Becca Andrews
Unbelievably, the man Hughes had been following was walking by the McDonald's as Hughes was on the phone with the cops.
- [38:19]
John Archibald
In Jermaine's 911 call, the operator begs him to stay on the line to wait at McDonald's for a cop to show up. You can tell he's impatient until he sees that man again carrying the blue bag beneath Vulcan.
- [38:33]
Becca Andrews
As Hughes frantically tried to describe the suspect, Tickle, the man in the suit jumped in to help.
- [38:40]
John Archibald
The prosecutor, Mike Wiseman, kept a record of it.
- [38:43]
Mike Wisnant
As he's on the phone, he looks out there and he sees the guy walking down the street on the other side. And he says to the lady on the floor, he says, wait, there he is. I see the guy. He's walking down the street on the other side of the street over there. And at that time, there was an attorney there named Jeff Tickle. And he overhears the conversation, and he starts trying to help Jermaine describe what the guy's wearing and what he looks like.
- [39:10]
John Archibald
Tickle is now a Republican circuit judge in Lee County, Alabama, home to Auburn University. He is reluctant to talk about the case. He worries that it could cause problems if his memory differs from what he told police in 1998. So we are relying here on a transcript of his statement. Then we'll have a colleague read it.
- [39:32]
Jeff Tickle
All of a sudden, I heard him say, that's him, that's him. So I look and I see a white male walking across the other side of 20th street, walking south on 20th Street. And he started trying to describe this fellow over the phone. And he was a little bit excited and he was a little bit tongue tied. So I kind of helped him out with a description. He had on a green and black plaid shirt that he had rolled up to his forearm. And he was wearing, like a dark shirt underneath that plaid shirt that went down to his wrist and it was black. His appearance was very neat. His shirt was tucked in. Everything about him was very neat. I roll my sleeves up. I kind of wad him up. His sleeves were folded, rolled up to his forearm.
- [40:16]
Mike Wisnant
And the operative says, stay right where you are. We're sending cars to your location right now.
- [40:21]
Becca Andrews
Hughes waited as long as he could bear it before he took off. And now both he and Tickle were out searching for this guy. Eventually, Tickle turned on a street by the Birmingham landmark called the Club, a sort of country club with a Sinatra vibe, known for its vistas and its orange rolls. The street seemed to run straight into the woods.
- [40:41]
Jeff Tickle
And there was a truck parked near the end of the street, back on the right hand side of the road facing the intersection. So I saw the front of the truck. I saw him move from the side of the truck where the woods are to the back of the truck. And I saw him open the camper up and put something in.
- [40:58]
John Archibald
By this time, Tickle had heard news on the radio of the bombing and figured out why this man might be important.
- [41:05]
Mike Wisnant
And he sees the camper back is open, and he sees the same guy putting stuff in the back of the camper. And he says, oh, my God, there he is.
- [41:14]
Becca Andrews
He was 10ft away beside a Nissan pickup truck with a camper shell.
- [41:19]
Jeff Tickle
He was looking right at me. I couldn't see his face because the camper shell blocked the window. But right as I got past the car, I was looking over my right shoulder and he was looking over his left right at me when I went by him.
- [41:32]
John Archibald
The cops asked if he could see.
- [41:34]
Jeff Tickle
His face then for a very brief second, because I said, oh. And I just turned straight ahead. But I did get a look at him looking at me.
- [41:42]
John Archibald
Tickle wrote the tag number down on his McDonald's coffee cup, a coffee cup that is now on display at the FBI office in Birmingham. The numbers matched the ones Hughes had given the police. North Carolina KND 1117 Blanton.
- [41:59]
Becca Andrews
The cop who interviewed Hughes on the day of the bombing had questions. But Hughes took him up the mountain, retracing his steps, convincing him. Then they went together to police headquarters in downtown Birmingham.
- [42:11]
Narrator/Host
I kind of didn't believe him. Thought he was just talking. So once Jermaine and I finished walking the route, I remember going to the headquarters, and it was so chaotic. And I remember it was attorneys, lawyers and people in there. And when I got up to homicide, it was a lot of commotion going on. I said, hey, I got a guy that saw everything. Everybody just looked at me. I said, he saw it all.
- [42:41]
Becca Andrews
On January 29, 2 hours and 11 minutes after shrapnel tore through Sandy Sanderson and Emily Lyons, Detective James Blanton had another job to do. Blanton put out the alert, telling authorities to be on the lookout for a gray pickup truck with a camper top registered to a man in the North Carolina mountains.
- [43:01]
Narrator/Host
I put the BOLO out, which means be on the lookout. At 9:44am that Bolo sent me to.
- [43:09]
John Archibald
Murphy, North Carolina, for weeks as a reporter for the Birmingham News. The tag number was enough for us to identify the man. Be on the lookout for Eric Robert Rudolph.
- [43:27]
Becca Andrews
But there was still so much that nobody knew.
- [43:31]
John Archibald
This season on American Shrapnel.
- [43:34]
Narrator/Host
And I remember when the feds were sending a robot and through the front door, and I remember they took off running.
- [43:41]
Becca Andrews
It was stuff that, like folklore, is made of. The setting could not have been more perfect for this kind of story.
- [43:49]
Narrator/Host
You're in the mountains where his people.
- [43:52]
Becca Andrews
Were like, run, Rudolph, run.
- [43:54]
Mike Wisnant
I could count seven mountain ridgelines, and there was no sign of humankind anywhere. There's 500,000 acres here. You know, we have to search all of it.
- [44:06]
David Namius
Do I personally believe that he acted alone?
- [44:09]
Chris Edson
No, I do not.
- [44:10]
Mike Wisnant
And so everywhere around him, surrounding him, engulfing him, were these radical views that he adopted that became part and parcel of who he became.
- [44:25]
Becca Andrews
I see Eric as sort of at the intersection of patriot militia lifestyle of supremacist ideology and anti abortion zealotry.
- [44:35]
Narrator/Host
The hair on the back of my neck stood straight up and my knees.
- [44:40]
John Archibald
Knocked so hard that I was about to answer them.
- [44:42]
David Namius
That's how nervous I was.
- [44:45]
John Archibald
Because here I am standing in front of an individual who was responsible for.
- [44:49]
Narrator/Host
The 1996 Atlanta Olympic park bombings.
- [45:04]
John Archibald
American Shrapnel is a production of Alabama Media Group. It was written and hosted by me.
- [45:09]
Becca Andrews
John Archibald and me, Becca Andrews. Our co creator and executive producer and voice actor for this episode is John Hammetry.
- [45:18]
John Archibald
This episode was engineered by Chris Hoff.
- [45:21]
Becca Andrews
Our field producer is Sarah Weitz Kodachek and our social media producers are Caroline Vincent and Mila Oliveira. Our logo and cover art were designed by Jack Browning.
- [45:30]
John Archibald
Shallon Stevens is our Editor in Chief. Consulting producers Dan Carson and Ashley Remkes provided valuable feedback. The song you're hearing right now is Birmingham by Beth Thornley and Rob Cairns.
- [45:43]
Becca Andrews
Special thanks to David Nammias, Chris Edson, Greg Garrison, Diane Derzis, James Blanton, Scott Morrow and Mike Wisnant. Thanks also to Katherine Osay's Champion and the Birmingham Public Library.
- [45:56]
John Archibald
If you like our show, please leave us a rating and review and follow us on Apple Podcasts, YouTube or your favorite podcast app.
- [46:04]
Becca Andrews
Thanks for listening.
- [46:29]
Narrator/Host
Tonight's Meal Tilapia Surprise with Boiled cabbage. Begin cooking steps 1 through 50 now.
- [46:34]
Becca Andrews
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