History Daily – Saturday Matinee: Rebel on Main
Episode Date: November 29, 2025
Host: Lindsay Graham
Featured Podcast: Rebel on Main (hosted by David Swartz)
Overview
This episode of History Daily presents an excerpt from the podcast Rebel on Main, exploring the controversy and history surrounding a Confederate statue in Jessamine County, Kentucky. Against the backdrop of nationwide Black Lives Matter protests in 2020, the episode investigates the monument’s meaning, the county’s complex racial history, and the enduring tension between historical memory and contemporary calls for justice. Through interviews, historical narration, and moving personal stories, listeners are invited to reflect on how past injustices continue to shape the present.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Contradictions of American History and Memory
- Opening Reflection: Host Lindsay Graham introduces the episode by quoting F. Scott Fitzgerald about “the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time” to frame the complexity of American history, especially regarding controversial monuments ([00:00-01:27]).
“Was George Washington an exceptional man of admirable virtue and also a slave owner? Was Andrew Jackson a formidable man of courage and principle and also responsible for genocide?”
— Lindsay Graham [00:35] - Graham distinguishes between monuments to complex figures like Washington and Jackson, and Confederate monuments, which he sees as “the glorification of a wretched lost cause” ([01:45]).
2. Introduction to Jessamine County’s Confederate Statue
- Meet the Hosts: David Swartz (Asbury University history professor) and Moses Radford (pastor at First Baptist Church, Nicholasville, KY) sit in conversation in 2020.
- Radford admits he never realized the statue was Confederate until seeing a Facebook post ([05:02]).
“I've been here for 29 years... I ain't paying attention to it. Until last week I read on Facebook... something in the courthouse yard that ought not to be, and I'm offended by it every time I go by and see it.” — Moses Radford [05:36]
- Upon learning the statue’s meaning:
“It means, now that I know what it is, it means there's a sign of hatred, sign of bigotry, racism. It is a sign that blacks are inferior and whites are superior. We're the master, y'all, the slaves.” — Moses Radford [06:13]
3. 2020 Protests and Community Response
- Black Lives Matter protests occur in the shadow of the Confederate statue, spurred by national outrage over the deaths of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor ([11:00]).
- Protesters’ signs reflect the pain and demands for change:
“The American dream is an African American's nightmare... No justice, no peace... Respect existence or expect resistance.” — Protesters ([14:48])
- Community surprises: Unexpected support is evident amid a “conservative, fairly rural” county with a small Black population ([17:00]).
“I’m seeing interracial couples in the car honking their horns... this is Nicholasville now. This is great. 20 years ago, I don’t think we’d have had that many horns.” — Unnamed local protester [17:45]
4. Personal Stories: Living With Racism
- Cassandra, a local Black woman, expresses feelings of betrayal and hope ([19:53]).
- Sherry, another protester:
“Black lives matter because we need justice... I got a young grandson. I'm afraid for him. I'm afraid for all our black men... we shouldn't have to be scared.” [20:45]
- Lazarus, a young Black man, recounts traumatic experiences with the police from the age of 13 ([21:20]).
“The extent of this town of racism is extremely high, along with police brutality. As a teenager... I really didn't come outside after dark. And even now, us doing this, I still feel nervous.” [21:40]
- He adds:
“There's just a lot of hidden secrets about this town that nobody knows about. I would like... for the whole town to be full with unity instead of separation.” [23:06]
5. Historical Context: Kentucky’s Divided Past
- Swartz describes Kentucky’s unique position as pro-Union yet pro-slavery, with nearly 40% of people in the Bluegrass region enslaved prior to the Civil War ([31:00]).
"Kentucky was pro union and pro slavery. A quarter of a million black people were enslaved here..." — David Swartz [32:40]
- Professor Amy Murrell Taylor details the lives of enslaved people, especially their labor in hemp fields—arduous and brutal work ([34:45]).
6. Camp Nelson: Emancipation and Tragedy
- Camp Nelson, a vital Union supply base, became a beacon for freedom following Lincoln’s offer of emancipation to Black men who enlisted ([40:00]).
- Taylor on the soldiers' hope:
“They gather at Camp Nelson... become part of the 5th US colored cavalry. And immediately they are put into action... They have not been trained. They have been given rifles that... were completely wrong and ineffective. ...They're overwhelmed, many of them... massacred.” — Prof. Amy Taylor [43:45]
- Outrageous violence occurs against Black soldiers—over 70 die when Confederates ignore laws of war ([45:50]).
- The tragic expulsion: In November 1864, Union commander Speed Smith Frye expels refugees—wives and children of Black soldiers—from Camp Nelson in freezing conditions, leading to mass suffering and death ([50:30-1:01:40]).
“Over 400 helpless human beings, frail women and delicate children, having been driven from their homes by United States soldiers, are now lying in barns and mule sheds, wandering through woods, languishing on the highway and literally starving for no other crime than their husbands and fathers having thrown aside the manacles of slavery to shoulder Union muskets.” — Contemporary newspaper excerpt [1:07:08]
- The moving poem “Camp Nelson, Kentucky. November 26, 1864” is read by Tracy K. Smith, based on the affidavit of Joseph Miller, a newly emancipated soldier who loses his whole family during the expulsion ([58:50-1:01:05]).
- National outrage leads to the reversal of the expulsion; Congress passes legislation guaranteeing freedom to soldiers’ families, helping 72,000 more people reach freedom ([1:11:20]).
7. Reckoning With Memory: 2020 Debates Over the Statue
- Residents and officials in Jessamine County confront what the statue means today.
- Jennifer Richardson remarks on the town’s persistent segregation ([1:16:45]).
“It's almost like the black people just stay in one area and the white people stay in a certain area. You know, it's almost kind of like segregation in a way. And I really don't understand that.” [1:17:20]
- Perry, a Black protester, draws the comparison:
“You don't see Nazi Germany stuff around Germany. ...Why are we still, 2020, still having to look at Confederate statues and Confederate flags as something that was lost? That's the most un-American thing you can do.” [1:20:29]
- Others, Black and white, express varying views—some see the statue as history, others as an enduring offense ([1:22:40]).
- Pastor Moses Radford underscores how many had literally never noticed the statue, but awareness is now growing ([1:30:51]).
“Some people have been here all their lives. They're not paying attention to it, but now they are.” [1:31:14]
8. Local Leadership and the Search for Unity
- County Judge Executive David West articulates multiple positions:
“We have fellow citizens, our neighbors, and our friends now that feel like our justice system's unfair to them....We need a new breadth of justice here in the United States...” [1:34:47]
- West suggests a way forward may lie in “repurposing” the statue, removing Confederate references, and turning it into a monument for unity ([1:39:20]).
“If we can repurpose it from a monument of division to a monument of unity, I think we'll be able to have Jessamine county show our state, our nation, and maybe the world how you deal with something like this.” — Judge West [1:40:53]
- As West and Swartz speak, counter-protesters—pickup trucks revving engines—appear, highlighting division ([1:48:51]).
Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments
-
On discovering the statue’s meaning:
“Until last week I read on Facebook... something in the courthouse yard that ought not to be, and I'm offended by it every time I go by and see it.”
— Moses Radford [05:36] -
On enduring racism:
“Black lives matter because we need justice. ...We shouldn't have to be afraid like that.”
— Sherry [20:45] -
On hidden community divisions:
“There's just a lot of hidden secrets about this town that nobody knows about.”
— Lazarus [23:06] -
On symbolic meaning:
“You don't see Nazi Germany stuff around Germany... That's the most un-American thing you can do.”
— Perry [1:20:29] -
On repurposing the monument:
“If we can repurpose it from a monument of division to a monument of unity, I think we'll be able to have Jessamine county show our state, our nation, and maybe the world how you deal with something like this. With love, with hope.”
— Judge David West [1:40:53]
Key Timestamps
- 00:00-01:45 — Opening monologue on history’s contradictions and controversial monuments
- 05:02 — Introduction of Rebel on Main and the Confederate statue in Jessamine County
- 11:00-20:00 — 2020 BLM protests; local reactions and reflections
- 31:00 — Historical context: Kentucky’s pro-Union and pro-slavery stance
- 40:00-47:00 — Camp Nelson, Black enlistment, and the massacre of the 5th US Colored Cavalry
- 50:30-1:11:20 — The Camp Nelson refugee expulsion; Joseph Miller’s story and the public outcry
- 1:16:45-1:23:00 — Modern protests: Statues as symbols and ongoing community division
- 1:30:00-1:40:53 — County Judge West: on justice, reconciliation, and monument reform
- 1:48:00-end — Preview of future episodes: meeting community members, ongoing debate
Tone and Style
The episode blends reflective narration, intimate interviews, and moments of stark honesty. Swartz’s investigative style combines historical rigor with emotional immediacy, while the voices of Jessamine County residents reveal a community wrestling—with uncertainty and hope—over the meaning of their shared past and future.
Conclusion
Rebel on Main Episode 1, as presented on History Daily, masterfully ties together Jessamine County’s Civil War legacy, the contemporary fight for racial justice, and the deeply personal journeys of its residents. The Confederate statue, meant as celebration, emerges as a catalyst for reckoning—a test, as Lindsay Graham puts it, of whether a community (and a nation) can “hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.” The debate is ongoing, and its outcome will shape not just the landscape, but also the soul of Jessamine County.
For more pictures and resources, visit rebelonmain.com.