Loading summary
Transcript92 lines
- [00:00]
History Daily Host
There are more ways than ever to listen to History Daily ad free. Listen with Wondry plus in the Wondery app as a member of Noiser plus at noiser.com or in Apple Podcasts. Or you can get all of History Daily plus other fantastic history podcasts@intohristory.com I'm always astonished when I think about the ancient migrations of humans, first out of Africa and then on to Europe, Asia, Oceania. Can you imagine making any of these journeys? Striking out, following game or fleeing conflict, Moving into areas completely foreign to you, with new geography, new flora, new fauna, new climate, new everything? How desperate or driven must you be to leave everything behind and move tens, then hundreds, then thousands of miles away from your ancestral home? And then I think about those very brave or to me, foolhardy people who hopped in boats no bigger than a tree and then set sail for what they didn't know what was over the horizon. They had no idea there was a destination to be found where their canoes were pointed. And then to survive the journey, to be vindicated by arriving on the shores of something so verdant and magnificent as the Hawaiian Islands. Simply remarkable. And on today's Saturday matinee, we're bringing you the story of these first Hawaiians as told by the podcast the Ancients. I hope you enjoy. While you're listening, be sure to search for and follow the answer. We put a link in the show notes to make it easy for you.
- [01:38]
Raising Cane's Advertiser
The WNBA Playoffs are in full swing and Tommy Alters the young man in the three brings you closer to the game. Get complete WNBA playoff coverage as Tommy sits down with the game's biggest stars and delivers unmatched analysis. The Young Men in the 3's WNBA playoff coverage is presented by Quest Nutrition. From irresistibly crunchy protein chips to rich chocolatey protein bars, these treats make giving in feel so good. Quest Big on protein, Low on sugar, Huge on flavor. Shop Quest on Amazon@Amazon.com questnutrition and enjoy all the WNBA action on the Young Men and the three Wherever you get.
- [02:19]
Capital One Advertiser
Your podcasts, this message comes from Capital One with the Spark Cash plus card. From Capital One, you earn unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase and get big purchasing power so your business can spend more and earn more. Steven Branton and Bruno, the business owners of Sandcloud, reinvested their 2% cash back to help build the company's retail presence. Capital One what's in your wallet? Find out more@capitalone.com sparkcashplus termsupply.
- [03:06]
Narrator/Host Introduction
1,000 years ago, humans reached one of the most isolated archipelagos in the world. Today, it is a famous tourist destination, renowned for its beautiful beaches, its aloha spirit, rainforests, volcanoes, cuisine, surfing, and, of course, if you know your World War II history, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. This is Hawaii, a group of islands situated in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. Long before Captain Cook reached this archipelago in 1778, Polynesian settlers had arrived on its shores and made Hawaii their home. To this day, you can still see archaeological traces left behind by these people, from their agricultural systems to their rock art, and so much more. This is the story of the first Hawaiians with our guest, Dr. Patrick Kirch.
- [04:00]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
Patrick, it is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.
- [04:03]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
- [04:05]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
And I think this episode holds the record for having two people from the right opposite ends of the world. I'm in London and it is six o' clock at night. You are in Hawaii, Patrick, and it's right early in the morning.
- [04:22]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Yes, it is a little after 7am and it's a lovely, sunny Hawaiian morning.
- [04:28]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
Well, I'm very jealous indeed. I can't say that about the evening in London today, but you've got your coffee, I've got my beer, and we're going to be talking all things the first Hawaiians. Patrick, what a story. This is the story of the first people who reached Hawaii. Has there been a lot of research, a lot of work done on Hawaiian archaeology in recent decades? Has there been a big interest in it?
- [04:49]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
There has. A lot of your listeners may not be aware of this, but there's been active archaeological research going on in Hawaii for more than a century, actually. And it's been, you know, the core of my career. I've actually been working on this subject for more than 50 years now, both in Hawaii and the South Pacific, where the Hawaiians themselves came from. There's active archeological research, both academic. I'm at the University of Hawaii, for example. But there's also a lot of archeology here. That's what we call cultural resource management, archeology, contractual archaeology, because we've had so much development in the islands for tourism and housing and other infrastructure and so on. So federal and our state laws require archaeological survey and research when there's to be any development or construction. So that is added immeasurably to the database about Hawaiian archaeology in recent decades.
- [05:43]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
And is there a lot of interest in Hawaii today about, you know, this archipelago's ancient past?
- [05:49]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
There is, and a lot of it is coming from native Hawaiians themselves. We have a very, you know, active native Hawaiian population who have, in, I'd say, the last 30 years, undergone what's sometimes called a cultural renaissance here in language and other aspects of culture. And we have a lot of native Hawaiians now who have become archaeologists. I've actually trained several of them formerly when I was at University of California at Berkeley, and then here in Hawaii.
- [06:16]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
And for learning about the earliest settlers of Hawaii. Patrick, is it just archaeology that helps us learn more about this, or do we have other types of sources, too?
- [06:27]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Yeah, we have a number of sources. The native Hawaiians themselves have a rich oral history, oral traditions, we call those molelo in Hawaiian language. They don't necessarily go back all the way to the first settlement of the islands, but they become increasingly detailed and rich as you get into the 1500s, 16, 1700s, accounts of the various ruling chiefs, marriages, wars. That is a very important source of information on the Hawaiian past. Comparative linguistics help us to understand how the Hawaiians are related to other Polynesian groups. Because Polynesia is a big sort of family of related cultures. Biological information recently has been very interesting. DNA analysis, you know, has shown us that Polynesians contacted people in South America probably around 1200 A.D. there was actually some intermarriage. Native Polynesians carry a section of DNA that came from South America. So, yeah, there are various different sources of information that we draw on.
- [07:27]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
Well, let's delve into the arrival and what the latest information is suggesting about it. Patrick, you mentioned Polynesians in passing there. So when do we think the first people reached Hawaii? And who were these people?
- [07:40]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Yeah, the first people were Polynesians. Hawaiians are Polynesians. They're a branch of the Polynesian larger cultural family, if you will. And the Polynesians are a branch of an even larger family we call the Austronesians that trace all the way back to Taiwan. We could talk about that later if you want. But the first people, first Polynesians to arrive in Hawaii, we now are pretty confident was around A.D. 1000. And, you know, put a plus or minus 100 on that. We used to think that it was earlier, but that was because of some problems with the radiocarbon dating that we, of course, use to tie down these kinds of events. The problem was, you know, back when I was first getting involved in Hawaiian archeology As a student, 50 years ago, it was thought that Polynesians arrived here maybe as early as A.D. 300. And that was because we were getting radiocarbon dates around that age Age. But these were from sites along the coast. And the charcoal that was being radiocarbon dated was not identified as to what kind of charcoal. Now, in more recent time, we've developed methods to identify wood charcoal to species from the anatomy of the wood and so on. What we now think happened is that some of those early dates were from driftwood that had come from the northwest coast of America. Big old trees, cedars, vines, things like this, which regularly come down, say, the Columbia river and float around the North Pacific and end up on Hawaiian beaches. So early Hawaiians coming here, settling, and they'd find big logs and break them up with their adzes and put them in their earth ovens. And then later, archaeologists, we date them. Well, the problem is, if the logs were 400 years old to begin with and then drifted around for maybe another century and ended up on the beach for another century or two. So the radiocarbon date was accurate as far as the age of the old tree, but not as to when it was burned and used by humans, which is what we want to know. So in recent decades, with advances both in identifying what we're dating and in, you know, there have been advances in radiocarbon methodology itself as far as the age error, you know, plus or minus factor. Right. So in recent years, we don't get any of those older ages anymore. And everything is coming down around about a thousand A.D. as far as arrival of Polynesians, not only here, but in other parts of Eastern Polynesia, there was a very rapid diaspora of Polynesians out of their Western Polynesian homeland. That's in the Tonga, Samoa area, right out to Tahiti, as far as Easter Island, Rapa Nui, up to Hawaii. And so within about two centuries, Polynesians just expanded all over the Eastern Pacific.
- [10:24]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
So should we be imagining it almost like island hopping and that Hawaii is one of the last groups of islands that the Polynesians settle on just because of where it is?
- [10:33]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Yes. I mean, it's in the North Pacific. Right. You know, if you look at a map of the Pacific, the expansion of Polynesians was pretty much from west to east, out along the sort of equatorial zone. To get to Hawaii, they had to sail north. They had to cross the equator, the doldrums, as sailors called it, where, you know, winds are often, you know, well, there's no wind often. And so if you're in a sailing canoe, it's difficult. And then get into the North Pacific and find this island group. And, you know, we often wondered what drove people or pulled people to make such an adventuresome voyage. It takes about a month in a voyaging canoe to get from Tahiti to Hawaii or vice versa. And one possibility is that there's a migratory bird, the golden plover. The Hawaiians call it the kolea. These plovers come from Siberia and Alaska. As the winter sets in in the northern hemisphere, they fly south. Some of them arrive in Hawaii, but others go down to Tahiti and islands in that vicinity. They spend the winter months there, nice and warm, you know, on the beaches.
- [11:35]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
Very nice indeed, yes.
- [11:36]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Tourist birds, you know. And then they return every year and they do this. And they come by the same patch of grass every year. So it may be that Polynesians in the Tahiti area were observing this and saying, okay, these birds are coming back every year and then they're leaving, they're flying north. There must be land up there. Right. They surmise, okay, let's go in that direction and see if we can find other islands. This is just speculation on my part. We know that Polynesians were great observers of nature. And so this is, you know, possibly one factor. Somebody said, we're going to follow the kolea and see where these things go.
- [12:09]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
And do we know much about the boats that they use that were able to endure the treacherous conditions of the Pacific Ocean so that, you know, some groups of them could reach Hawaii?
- [12:18]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Yes. By the time that the Polynesians were expanding into Eastern Polynesia, they had invented the double hulled canoe. We would call it a catamaran, basically. We believe the older Polynesian ancestral canoes a thousand more years ago were smaller canoes. But in the Tonga, Samoa area, probably, you know, around the time of Christ and up to when they began to expand 1000 or 900 AD, they had removed the outrigger and replaced it with a second hull. And they'd also developed technology to cut planks and sew them on so you could heighten the canoe, you know, the hull, you could make it bigger, right, by adding planks, using set coconut rope to lash these together and breadfruit SAP is caulking and quite an amazing technology, all in wood and fiber and so on. So these double hulled canoes, they were capable of carrying easily 40, 50 people, sometimes perhaps more. Wow. They had platforms between the. And you get actually a little house on there. Some of them were two masted. So these were formidable craft. And, you know, they were. These kinds of canoes were observed by early European explorers like James Cook, Captain Cook from England and so on. So we have pretty good idea what they. They look like Cook himself was really in awe of the Polynesian canoes. I mean, he wrote about how. How fast they were. They could sail around his ship while he was sailing. They were, you know, really remarkable watercraft.
- [13:50]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
Presumably they had the space for, you know, lots of supplies so that they could survive if they were out in the oceans for weeks on end before they found, you know, this land mass of Hawaii.
- [13:59]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Yeah, they would have to have had obviously sufficient supplies. They probably would catch fish as they were sailing along. But they would need, you know, some probably dried breadfruit and other starch. And of course, they could catch rainwater when there was rain. But they probably had coconuts on board also to drink. Coconuts are great, you know, food source. But they would also be carrying planting material for their own crops. Because Polynesians were agricultural people. We think of them as maritime people. And they were, but they were also agriculturalists. They were land and sea people. So wherever they went, they would carry the planting stocks of their taro, their bananas, their yams, their breadfruit and so on. And they had domestic animals, they had pigs, they had dogs, and they had chickens, those three main domestic animals. And so they would be wanting to carry those as well in these big canoes. So when they got to the new island, you know, they could, you know, have all the necessities to establish a new permanent home there.
- [14:56]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
So it's got the starter pack with them in their canoe. That's fascinating. And do we have any names? I mean, do we hear of any mythological stories about these first people to reach Hawaii? Are there myths surrounding this?
- [15:10]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Not of the really first settlement? It's interesting. I think that is far enough back in time that these traditions didn't carry on in this mythological. Yes, there's a voyager named Hawai Lo, but it's not tied into any of the real genealogies. What we do have are oral traditions of voyaging a little bit later in time after Hawaii was settled. There are several accounts. There's one involving an individual named Moikeha with a brother, Olopa. And these were like third generation descendants of a chief who came from Tahiti named Maweke. And they knew about their ancestral land and apparently knew how to get back there. And so this would be around the 14th century. And the tradition talks about Moikeha and Olopana. They had a co wife. Hawaiian chiefly women often had two or more husbands. Interesting. So Luakea was the wife and the three of them sailed down to Tahiti, and Olopa stayed there, but Moikeha ended up returning. It's a very long story. I won't go into all the details. But Lukia also stayed, but Moikeha came back to Hawaii. But he had had an affair with a Tahitian chiefess while he was there. And he knew she had borne him a young son before he left. So later on in his life, when he's back in Hawaii, he wants to see this baby. So he sends one of his sons from Hawaii back to Tahiti to fetch this baby named Laa, who's now a young, grown young man. And so Laa and he gets a new name, Laa Mai Kahiki, which means Laa from Tahiti. He comes up to Hawaii and has various adventures there and marriages and so on and so forth. And then he eventually sails back to Tahiti again and never to return. It's quite a long, you know, story. And I think it's absolutely true. I mean, I think there's no reason to. I think it's mythological. I think it's an actual account of one family that maintained voyaging connections to Tahiti. But this is after the period of, you know, very first settlement.
- [17:13]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
But it's also a testament to their amazing navigation, isn't it, the fact that, you know, they find Hawaii, but then people are able to get back to Tahiti afterwards to let people know about the discovery. And then more people go to Hawaii over time, over the following centuries. That's extraordinary. And do we know much about what Hawaii looks like when these first people arrived there?
- [17:32]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Yes, there's been quite a lot of research myself, but my colleagues also on trying to reconstruct the ecology, the environment of the islands at the time of first settlement. Some of this comes from coring in wetlands and then extracting pollen to identify the various species of plants. And you look at changing frequencies in the sediment cores over time. We radiocarbon date the sediments, et cetera, so you can get a picture to changing vegetation. That's one angle that we've looked at. And of course, also analyzing the bones of various animals that, you know, whether it's fish or birds and so on. So all of this has led to a picture of, you know, islands. Before the Polynesians came, there had been no humans in Hawaii. Right. So it was a totally, you know, pristine ecosystem that evolved here over millions of years in the middle of the Pacific. One of the things about islands like this that are isolated is land vertebrates other than birds can't get out here. So there were no mammals, for example, other than two species of bat. But there were a diversity of birds. They were both seabirds. They were probably very plentiful. But there were also various kinds of forest birds that had evolved from flighted ancestors that had flown in. There were also flightless birds. This is something we didn't know until a few decades ago. Large birds that were related to geese. Probably their ancestor was something like the Canada goose, which does fly out here occasionally. But there were no predators. So if a bird, little bird, evolves a mutation that is flightless, it's not going to get, you know, chomped down by some tiger or something. And so flightlessness actually evolves over and over again on islands, it turns out, like the dodo.
- [19:09]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
The dodo, yes.
- [19:11]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Yeah. You know, and the moa, New Zealand, so on. Well, we had these flightless birds also quite large, around the size of. Well, bigger than turkeys, closer to an ostrich sort of size. It turns out they didn't survive long after people arrived in the islands. They probably were nice food packages and what we call a naive fauna. So they'd had no predators. So a Polynesian, you know, arriving on the beach and walking up to one of these big birds, a bird, probably just look at them and say, well, you know, I don't know what you are. You're. You're not part of my consciousness. I don't have any flight response or anything. I just walk up and grab the bird and put them in the oven, you know, in the earth oven. They'd be good food packages anyway. They're very rare. The bones of them in early sites. So we know they went. Went out early. So that's one example of, you know, a change that was due to. To human arrival. Another aspect of Polynesian arrival is they also had on their canoes a small rat. We call it the Pacific rat. It's really like a mouse size, but it's a rat, according to the zoologists. Now, we don't know whether these rats were just on a stowaways because they're commensal animals. They live in thatch and so they could sneak on to canoes. Or maybe they were carried on purpose in small cages because you can eat them. And Polynesians on some islands did eat them. They're, you know, probably pretty tasty. I've never had the opportunity to try one myself, but I wouldn't mind if the opportunity arose. But anyway, we know that everywhere the Polynesians went, these rats went as well. We find the bones of them in archeological sites everywhere. And now they reproduce very fast. These little rats, right? A female Pacific rat can have multiple litters a year and multiple pups in each litter. So you can imagine an exponential increase in these rats. And they're omnivorous. So they'd come ashore on, you know, Hawaii and they'd start reproducing and they would begin to eat both little seedlings and seeds of native plants and so on. So what do we see in those pollen cores from the lowlands? We see a real change in the native forest over the first two centuries or so, almost a collapse of the lowland forest, forest. And we think it's not so much due to people, although some of it probably due to clearing forests for gardens and so on. But these rats may have had a major effect, especially in these lowland areas, you know, eating seedlings and seeds. So the forest didn't regenerate. So these are some of the changes that we now know occurred after first human arrival. The higher mountains, the higher forests and so on didn't see a lot of impact from human arrival.
- [21:40]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
And Patrick, can you describe, just for someone like me who's never had the fortune of going to Hawaii, or at least not yet, can you describe us what the topography of Hawaii looks like generally? Is it largely tree cover or is there volcanic material there as well? What do we know?
- [21:57]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
It's really varied. The thing about Hawaii that's, you know, will really strike you if you do get a chance to come out here is it's highly varied. There are so many micro environments and it's different up and down the archipelago because we have, like the island of Hawaii itself, we call it the Big island, is volcanically active. So yes, there are big areas of lava flows and fields. It's erupting right now. This morning's paper said Kilauea volcano was fountaining 500ft high yesterday. But then you come to up the island chain, which the islands get older because it's a age progressive, a volcanic archipelago. So here on Oahu, where I live, it's about 3 million years old. There's no active volcanoes. Obviously the topography is very eroded. I mean, we have these, you know, mountain peaks and ridges and yes, they're covered in native vegetation, native forest. We have beautiful reefs around Oahu, whereas on the young islands, it's too young to have reef development. So it's really highly varied.
- [23:00]
History Daily Host
History daily is sponsored by indeed. My business is a bit peculiar. There are way more ordinary ways to make a living than podcasting, for sure. But when it comes to hiring, though, the skills are different. The needs are the same for any business. You need specific experience, a set of talents unique to your business and a match for your culture. That's exactly what makes hiring so hard. Every position is looking for a unicorn. But here's the thing with Indeed Sponsored Jobs, they wrangle the unicorns and get you people who fit your needs. And they do it fast in the minute. I've been talking to you. 27 hires were made on Indeed according to Indeed data worldwide. Plus with Indeed sponsored Jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long term contracts, and you only pay for results. Spend more time interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. Now with Indeed Sponsored Jobs History Daily listeners will get a $75 sponsored job credit. To get your jobs more visibility@innodd.com onthis day, just go to indeed.com onthis day right now. Indeed.com onthisday terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the right way with.
- [24:09]
T-Mobile Advertiser
Indeed introducing Family Freedom from T Mobile, we'll pay off four phones up to 3, 200 and give you four free phones, all on America's largest 5G network. Visit t mobile.com familyfreedom up $800 per line via virtual prepaid card typically takes 15 days. Free phone via 24 monthly bill credits with finance agreement. Example Apple iPhone 16128 gigs 829.99 eligible training trade in example iPhone 11 Pro for well qualified credits end and balance due if you pay off early or cancel. Contact us.
- [24:50]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
And so the animals that they bring along with them. Patrick, just a refresher. I know you mentioned it earlier, but just to recap. So the rat, maybe a stowaway? Sheep and pig. And dogs. Are those the other three dogs?
- [25:02]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Pigs and chickens.
- [25:04]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
Chickens, sorry, my apologies. There no sheep, of course. And the types of fruits that they had as well. So is that breadfruit, taro and any others as well?
- [25:15]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Yeah. So the Polynesians, wherever they sailed, they took with them a variety of crop plants, mostly root crops, fruit crops, a few trees. Taro, which is a root crop, is very important. Bananas, breadfruit, yams, sugarcane, these are all things that they brought along with them. And a very important crop was the sweet potato, which Polynesians obtained from South America. We know that the Polynesian canoes got to the coast of South America and picked up this tuberous crop which had been domesticated in the Andes. And by around the 1400 AD, if not slightly earlier, sweet potato begins to show up in Polynesian sites. So we find the carbonized remains of tubers. So we know you know, it's here. And it became a really important crop in the drier areas of Hawaii. These islands have a windward side that's wetter and a leeward side that's drier. And the drier areas, sweet potato was really a very important crop.
- [26:13]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
So they arrive with their foodstuffs and their animals. They reach Hawaii. Has the archeology revealed a lot or anything about the nature of the settlements that they found? What do we know about the settlements?
- [26:25]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
And we only have one archaeological site from that very earliest period. And I was privileged as a student years ago to be involved in the excavation of that site. So I'm quite familiar with it. It's here on the island of Oahu, on a beach ridge just a few meters above the beach at Waimanalo. Beautiful, beautiful beach. And it consisted just of a cluster of small thatched houses low to the ground. We found the post molds where the posts have been set. The floor was paved with river gravel, smooth river gravel. There were little harves for fire, and there were earth ovens. The Polynesians cooked their food in pits dug into the ground, and they heat rocks, sour fire and heat rocks, and then put the food on that and cover it over, and it makes a really lovely, smoky flavored food. And we found at least one of those earth ovens in that site. The artifacts there were included fish hooks made of pearl shell and bone adzes, you know, which are like an axe, but in Europe, I think you call them a Celt or Kelton and woodworking tool. They had those out of basalt. We found some ornaments, necklace ornaments, that sort of thing. So a simple little hamlet, probably a cluster of sites next to a freshwater stream where they get their fresh water, and they're probably planting their gardens just inland.
- [27:48]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
And are the houses made out of organic materials, or do we have stone buildings as well?
- [27:55]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Surviving the bases or foundations of the Hawaiian houses, especially the later ones, of which we have hundreds of thousands of examples. They have stone foundations, often a platform or terrace faced up with stone, and again, often paved with fine gravel, smooth water, worn gravel, so nice on your feet. But the superstructures were all of wood and thatch. So wooden posts and then thatching, most commonly out of a native grass called pili, but sometimes out of pandanus leaves or woven coconut leaves.
- [28:29]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
So how much further forward do we go before we get to those? Lots more examples of these early settlements spring up. Because I don't mind going a bit further forward in time if that means there's more archaeological evidence there.
- [28:40]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Yeah, we start to get more abundant archaeological evidence by the 13th century.
- [28:45]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
Oh, okay. That's fine. Yes.
- [28:47]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Yeah. But by then, we know all of the main islands were at least had some settlements on them by the 13th century. By the 15th century, people are moving into the more marginal, drier areas that I've talked about, the leeward areas. They preferred initially the windward areas, because with greater rainfall, it's better for the agriculture, for crops and so on. After a few hundred years, the population clearly had built up to a level. Where there was some competition for land territory. And people began to shift over into these drier leeward areas and onto the younger islands like Maui and Hawaii, that don't have as much arable land. And that's where the sweet potato was really important, because having the sweet potato allowed them to garden and produce sufficient food in the drier areas.
- [29:37]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
Well, let's explore that now. So do we know much about how they farmed the land back then, you know, almost a thousand years ago?
- [29:44]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Yeah, we do. We've done a lot of research on the ancient farming techniques. And there's lots of archeological evidence for this in the form of, first of all, there's a kind of wetland cultivation. This was for the taro, where they would level valley bottoms, create level terraces, sort of cutting and filling. And usually face up the terrace with stone. Very. A nice stonework a meter or two high. And then they would construct a canal that dam the river and dig a canal would come in and then transport water from the stream into these terraces. So your listeners might have images in their head of rice terraces in Asia that's more familiar with that. Exactly the same kind of technology. Right. So irrigated valley bottoms. And then in the dryland areas, they were constructing what we call field systems. So again, they were delineating fields with stone walls or embankments between them. This seems to have been as much a matter of ownership, you know, laying out individual plots, marking them out, but also probably served a function of erosion control. A lot of these areas are windy, so having these embankments would help to catch soil that was being blown. And some of these dryland areas, as they were described in early European contact, Along these embankment walls, they grew sugarcane. Sugarcane, It's a plant that was domesticated in the Pacific in the New guinea area. And carried out by the Polynesians. The cane will grow to heights of about 10, 12ft. And as the winds sweep down off the mountain, they're carrying some moisture still. And these sugar cane barriers acted to catch moisture and sort of like A fog drip. And we've done this experimentally. A colleague of mine from Stanford University has set up experimental gardens on the Big island and he's shown that these sugarcane rows will catch the rain or the mist and they allow water to drip, drip, drip, drip down. So very clever. You know, it's technology, sort of biological technology there of using the cane to catch water in an area that's where water is scarce.
- [31:52]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
And is it also a very sustainable way of farming too? Is it those methods that allow the settlements to grow? And I'm presuming go from, as you mentioned earlier, these very early hamlets maybe into the equivalent of towns.
- [32:04]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
That's a good point. You raise about towns, the settlement pattern in Hawaii, we don't get urbanism. We don't really get towns or cities as such. We get some concentrations and that's where the chiefly elites tended to be. I refer them as royal centers. So you'll get concentrations of housing along with temple sites or quite large stone foundations of these temples where the elites perform various kinds of ceremonies. But the common people were more dispersed over the landscape, so they were living either along the coast, where of course, fishing is important. The houses, in other words, were interspersed with the gardens, with the farming. So we have this more dispersed settlement pattern. Foreign.
- [32:52]
Claude AI Advertiser
Claude is the go to AI assistant for millions of people and businesses around the world. Whether you're brainstorming a loan, drafting a business plan for your next big idea, preparing for a crucial negotiation, or building with a team of thousands, Claude is here to help. By using Claude as your personal or business AI assistant, you'll be in great company organizations like Salesforce, Figma and Coinbase all use Claude in their products. Try Claude for free@claude.com that's claude.com at Raising Cane's.
- [33:24]
Raising Cane's Advertiser
We're hyper focused on being the best at what we do and getting it right every time. Cook to order Chicken fingers, cane sauce, crinkle cut fries, coleslaw, Texas toast, iced tea and lemonade. It's our one love Love. But is the hype real? Yeah, it's real good. Raising Cane's chicken fingers One Love. Next time order with our app or online.
- [34:04]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
We'll get more into those elites and those kings and that kind of status idea in a bit. But I also like to ask a bit more about fishing because we talked about that really interesting farming techniques. Did they also have some really striking fishing techniques too?
- [34:16]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Yes, they had a diversity of fishing techniques, using hooks, of course, for angling, trolling, they used spears, they had traps. I mean the Diversity of techniques is amazing. And I can't help but mention the Hawaiians invented true aquaculture using fish ponds where the marine environment was suitable. This was not everywhere, but where you had protected coastlines, like on the southern coastline of Molokai island, very protected. The reef flat extends out one or two kilometers. And they would construct these arc shaped or semi circles of stone. Piling up the stones, you create a wall, an arc shaped wall that goes out onto the reef flat, curves around and comes back. And these were usually built where there was a small stream or a spring or something on the coast where fresh water was coming out. So by impounding this area, they would create a brackish water mix between the salt water and the fresh water. Right. And that's the environment that a couple of species of fish, the milk fish and the mullet, they thrive in those environments that have gateways with wooden slats that would allow the very small juvenile fish to come in. Once the fish, you know, and they were feeding in this nice brackish water environment with algae and so on, and they get to a certain size, they couldn't get back out into the ocean, you know, through this slatted gates. And then periodically they would sweep through these ponds with same nets of a certain mesh size. So they didn't want to take the small ones. Right. But the, the mesh would catch the larger and then harvest, you know, hundreds of these fish. There were several hundred of these fish ponds constructed throughout the islands. And we've been able to date the construction of some of them by again, carefully coring in the pond sediments and dating when the sediment shifts from being marine to brackish.
- [36:11]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
So you can still see fish ponds. If you visit Hawaii today, you can still see those archaeological sites.
- [36:16]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Absolutely. And there have been some efforts to try to restore some of them. Unfortunately, most of them were abandoned in the last century or so. And then they got invaded by invasive mangrove that never existed here in Hawaii. But one of the very largest is here on Oahu. It's called Heia Fish Pond. And over the last few years, a community group has removed the mangrove. It was difficult job, but they pulled all that out, they restored the wall, and they're operational again. So, yes, if you come, you can see fish ponds in operation.
- [36:47]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
I mean, Patrick, it's amazing. It sounds like the archaeology is revealing a lot about the lives of everyday people, of some of these earliest people to settle in Hawaii over those first few centuries. It's amazing. And what do we then know about the rise of these royal centers the rise of elites, and I'm presuming more monumental architecture. If you say things like temples, yes.
- [37:10]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Monumental architecture definitely is here in Hawaii. Right. And the Polynesians, all of them, have a kind of social organization that. Or sociopolitical, that we call chiefdoms. I'm sure all your listeners are familiar with that. So all the Polynesians are chiefly societies, a hereditary chiefship. But in Hawaii, as time went on, this hereditary pattern of chiefship got more and more elaborated, more stratified. So at the time that Europeans arrived, about two centuries ago, what we see in Hawaii is a more highly stratified kind of chiefly society than anywhere else in Polynesia. To the extent that I no longer refer to that late Hawaiian society as a chieftain, but rather as an archaic state. The kind of society that we know evolved very early on, say, in Mesopotamia or in Shang China, Mesoamerica and so on. It clearly developed independently in Hawaii in isolation. It wasn't, you know, the idea of. Of divine kings, which Hawaiians had, did not come from somewhere else. They elaborate, invented this concept themselves. But indeed, the Hawaiian ruling chiefs, the apex of the hierarchy in that late period, they were known as alii akua, which literally translate God king. They were described by native Hawaiian scholars in the 19th century as being like hot, raging, like fiery blazes. And so there were all kinds of protocols around this that these most highly ranked chiefs often traveled at night. So it's not to be seen by the commoners, because if the commoners looked upon them, it was a violation of what we call the kapu, or the taboo. They might have to be put to death. So this whole kapu system was very elaborate. There were nine named grades of chiefs in Hawaii at the time of contact. Nine, you know, ranked grades of chiefship.
- [39:02]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
And do we have any archaeological evidence for this system, too, to go in hand with that?
- [39:06]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
There's monumental architecture, in particular the temple. So the Hawaiian religious system had also evolved or transformed in parallel with this increasing social stratification. So Hawaiians, like other Polynesians, they're polytheistic, but they had four principal gods. And two of those were extremely important. Those were the God of war, Ku, and the God of dryland agriculture, Lono, the God of wetland agriculture, was also very important on some of these older islands. That's the God Kane. There's another God, Kanaloa, who had to do more with the afterworld and fishing things. So there were temples constructed for the worship of each of these different kinds of gods. And the temples of the war God were Extremely important. And they're quite large. The foundations of them were built in stone. Again, they had perishable superstructures that, you know, didn't persist. But there are hundreds of these foundations of temples, agricultural temples, also the war temples that archaeologists have studied over the years, you know, mapping them, but also excavating and dating them. I've done a lot of work on this. And the island of Maui actually published a whole book on the temple system of Maui a few years ago. So these begin to develop and begin elaborated again around the 1500 AD or so and become more and more elaborate as time goes on. You know, some of the just give you an example. One of the largest temples in Maui, War Temple, has a base area of 9,000 square meters. Wow. Yeah. And five terraces that rise up, you know, to a height of 30 meters above the ground, something like that. I mean, and it's all in stacked stone. The Hawaiian, you know, basalt rock that these islands are made of is very hard to work. It's very hard stone. So they didn't get into cutting and dressing stone like the Maya did. Maya had it easy because they had soft limestone. Right. It was easy to work. Hawaiian basalt is really tough stuff. But they would stack it up. They would take these rocks and stack them. They're very good at doing dry masonry like that.
- [41:11]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
It is dry masonry. Is it? Okay. They don't have any mortar or anything. Okay.
- [41:15]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Dry stack masonry. Exactly. And so these temples foundations, they're either terraces or some of them are walled or some combined walls and terraces. Again, they're very large. And if you were to see them when they were in use, and we do have some drawings like from Captain Cook's voyage. His artist recorded some of these when they were still in use. So they had structures on them that were again, pole and thatch, as well as carved images. Right. They had these quite impressive images of the God Khu and so on. And the God Khu demanded human sacrifices prior to prologation of war or after the conclusion of war. The human sacrifice was only offered to the war God, not to the other God. The other gods were offered sacrifices of pigs and dogs and vegetable produce and so on. But coup demanded human sacrifice. That's another aspect of this archaic state, kind of social evolution of human sacrifice, or I call it ritual homicide. It's homicide that's sanctioned by the state. I mean, homicide in most societies is we don't like to kill each other. As the Ten Commandments say, thou shalt not kill. But in certain societies, the king can kill the Priests can kill, right? Two gods that demand those. It's ritually sanctioned homicide.
- [42:32]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
I guess it's interesting to theorize how many centuries, half hour back, practices like that could have gone. I mean, if I'm bringing us back to the earlier Hawaiians, by this time, does it seem like there's almost a step change with the use of basalt and the use of stone foundations? But could it be, for instance, let's say with these temple like structures or these people, bigger buildings with these stone foundations? Could there have been precedents from earlier centuries where they weren't using basalt and they were just made out of perishable material and they just haven't survived?
- [43:03]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Yes, I'm sure. Or they were very simple constructions. In the South Pacific, some of the islands there, the temples are just simple rows of upright stones representing the gods, for example. And we think probably the initial Hawaiian temples were something like that. Yeah, quite simple. But yeah, you get a bigger population, you get social stratification. Chiefs or kings can control large labor forces to. I mean, it took a lot of labor to build some of these temples, right? Yeah. So you get that in the, in the later period.
- [43:35]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
Do we know whether, do they have any metal working at all? What types of materials they would have used for their tools?
- [43:40]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
They did not have metal and I don't think they're even, you know, iron ore is not prevalent here in the island. So they had no metal working. They were, you know, what we would classically call a Neolithic kind of society in that sense. Very elegant stone working. Their stone ads is beautifully produced. They found the finest grain, basalt. All the ads are made of basalt, but it varies in the quality. And there are just certain places where the basalt is extremely fine grained. So when you are napping it, striking it, it produces, you know, a beautiful conical. You know, if you're familiar with flint knapping, you know, it's not as good as flint, but the fine grain basalt here can be worked very well. And one of those sources, this is incredible, is at 11,000 foot elevation on the big island of Hawaii, on the slope of Mauna kea volcano at 11,000ft. I mean, if you're Hawaiian, you don't have, you know, your modern parkas, your polyethylene parkas and your hiking boots and all that, right? So these people were going barefoot up this volcanic mountain where it was freezing at night. They went and they found this flow, this particular basalt flow which had erupted during the last ice age. Mauna Kea was capped with a glacier during the last ice age and this small flow erupted under the glacier, which then super cooled the lava. That's why this particular flow is so fine grained. And they found this and they began to work it. And for centuries they worked this quarry. The quarry is amazing. There are immense ponds, piles of flakes from the working of thousands and thousands of adzes. In recent years, we've developed a method of geochemically tracing the different quarry sources. Right. You use X ray diffraction to get a chemical signature. We can discriminate these different quarry sources and we find this Mauna Kea basalt moving off even the island of Hawaii to Maui and even up here to Oahu. So it was so, you know, desirable that they were trading these adzes from the Big island, you know, up the archipelago.
- [45:46]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
So it's almost like with stone circles over here in Britain, how people nowadays can look at the rock type and trace where they originally quarried from these big stones that ultimately made these stone circles. It seems similar over there in Hawaii. You can learn more about how these early Hawaiians, the quarries that they used and where those stones ultimately ended up.
- [46:03]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Yes, absolutely. We're doing a lot of work on that. I actually, my team just to about three years ago discovered a new quarry was unknown on the island of Molokai, where I do a lot of work on the east end of the island. The west end of the island has lots of known quarries, but we knew there was some quarry source on the east end because we'd found flakes that we knew come from the east end volcano. But we couldn't trace it. And eventually we managed to find this thing way up a hidden little valley gulch. It's an amazing quarry site and on the wall, a cliff that they were working on, this flying grain basalt. They're actually petroglyphs, you know, anthropomorphic petroglyphs that I think maybe are marking, you know, ownership. This is my quarry. You know, I've got my sign here.
- [46:45]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
Well, Patrick, you mentioned the petroglyph word and I've been saving this topic till one of the last. So let's get to it now. I mean, the story of Hawaiian petroglyphs, which still seizes news headlines down to the present day. Can you tell us about these? Because they are extraordinary.
- [47:01]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Yeah, the petroglyphs, they occur across the islands in different, you know, places. I know you're aware of this. I think it's made the press. There's a recent report on petroglyphs at sea level actually on this island, Oahu but up at Pokai Bay and they get exposed periodically. Every few years they get covered with sand. They're right in the tidal zone and the sand will wash away. And then you see the petroglyphs. Everybody got very excited a few weeks ago when these appeared again. And they're anthropomorphic human like stick figures. Unfortunately, there's no way to date them directly, so we don't know their age. And those particular ones at Pokai Bay, I would speculate they might be marking the arrival of some people because they are at the coast marking an event. Who knows, maybe a canoe from the South Pacific. I don't know. I'm just speculating. But I do know, you know, other petroglyphs. I've studied other petroglyph sites. For example, on the island of Maui, where I did a lot of work, and the dryland side of the island area called Kahiki Nui. And we find there little clusters of petroglyphs adjacent to areas that we think were freshwater springs in the past. They're dry now because of deforestation. But these are areas geologically where we think water was seeping out. And on the rock face over these seeps, we find clusters again, often anthropomorphs, human stick pharyotypes, but also of dogs. You know, these little pictures of dogs and with the pointy ears and the up curved tail. We found about 18 different clusters like this of petroglyphs, each probably associated with a water source. And then down on the Big island where they have the volcanic terrain, there are several well known petroglyph sites. One at Puakou, where you have a lava field, if you will, a smooth, relatively smooth lava called Pahoehoe. And there are several thousand petroglyphs there in a great big cluster. One of the most interesting ones shows a line of, I think it's 20 or 30 stick figures appearing to march, marching, you know, in a. In a column. And then to the side, one very much larger stick figure. And I think it's representing a chief and his warriors. And just as in, you know, some of the early European art, they would depict social status by showing bigger figures. You know, the clergy or the king would be depicted as much larger than the common people or same thing here. So this large stick figure is, I think, representing some kind of ran rank status. And then we probably have a line of. It could be warriors because we know there were battles that took place in this area in the past.
- [49:36]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
Battles between the islands, do we think, or between different groups of people.
- [49:39]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
On one island, both, but in this case, in the late period before European arrival. So I'm talking of the 17th, 18th centuries. There were lots of wars, especially going on between Maui and Hawaii Islands. Those two kingdoms, they were related in that the elites were intermarrying, but they were also fighting for control. Again, it mirrors a lot of European history. Right? Intermarriage and yet war between competing kingdoms. And we have some detailed accounts. I mentioned earlier, the molelo, the Hawaiian oral traditions, you know, talk about these. So one, for example, was a king of Maui named Kamallalawalu, and he sailed over in his war canoes and made war against the Hawaii Islanders. Unfortunately, his reconnaissance scouts failed to recognize that a lot of the population on Hawaii island lived in the uplands. And scouts had come back and said, oh, there are not a lot of people there. We can easily defeat them. Well, they were wrong. And when the Maui warriors got there, all of a sudden these big army came from the uplands and routed the Maui army. They fled.
- [50:45]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
Well, I must Admit, maybe the 17th and 18th centuries is a bit too far ahead for the ancients. But we can bring it back, Patrick, by saying that, you know, that's the larger scale that you have later, but you can presume that there were smaller clashes that went stretched back centuries, almost a thousand years or so. And also, shall we clarify with the word petroglyph? So this is simply kind of artistic patterns, as you said, of human stick figures, dogs as well, carved into stone, presumably bashed in with another type of rock with a hammer stone, do we think?
- [51:15]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Yeah, exactly. Pecked would be the way. So you take a hard basalt chisel or hammerstone and then repeatedly peck into the softer lava, which is a little air holes in it. Right. It's porous. So you can break down that lava and then you basically creating grooves outlining either the stick figures, the dogs, there are others that are just geometric concentric circles, that sort of thing.
- [51:39]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
And I know it's always so hard to date rock art, but can we presume that some of that rock art does date to the very, very early centuries when people first arrive in Hawaii and settle there?
- [51:50]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Some of it almost certainly does, but the problem is we can't discriminate because we can't directly. That's a problem with rock art. It's really hard to date, as you say, occasionally. Well, there was one case that comes to mind on the Big island where there's a lava tube cave. It has petroglyphs on the wall. And as people, they occupied this cave they lived in it. And so the earth, you know, stratum, the debris of their occupation, began to build up and built up against covering the lower layer of petroglyphs. And we were able to radiocarbonate charcoal in the occupation layer. So then we know that the petroglyphs predated that. We at least say, okay, these were before. I don't remember what the date was. I'm sorry. But that's one case where we're able to date the petroglyphs.
- [52:35]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
And it seems like the art, depending on what they depicted, could mean a variety of different things, whether it's a territory boundary or, you know, as you mentioned earlier, maybe. Maybe the ones by the sea is the welcoming of a new group of people to the island or another one with the larger stick figure and the smaller ones, maybe a chieftain and his followers. So I'm guessing the meaning of the art could vary depending on where they made it.
- [52:56]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Absolutely. And I think there are multiple meanings, I'm sure. I mean, we can speculate, as I have, about petroglyphs at water sources or quarries being ownership. You know, the ones at Pokai Bay, I said they might memorialize a arrival of a group of people, but. But thinking about it, it might memorialize that they killed some people who were trying to come and take their territory, and then they memorialized it by saying, okay, we defeated these people who were trying to come and make war on us.
- [53:21]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
Patrick, this has been such a fascinating chat exploring what the archaeology is revealing about these earliest settlers in Hawaii. But it also sounds really, really exciting for the future. If we go back to what you mentioned at the beginning, the big interest there is in archaeology in Hawaii right now. Does it feel almost inevitable that new archaeological discoveries will be made over the following years and decades, which will add more to our knowledge of these earliest settlers of Hawaii?
- [53:50]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Yes, I'm sure there will be new discoveries. And also what I've learned over 50 years of doing this is new technologies, new methods of extracting data. That's one of the remarkable things, things we can do today, like with the geochemical sourcing of stone tools or, you know, analyzing pollen grains out of swamp cores or isotopes from, you know, little rat bones to see what they were eating. We have so much more tools, so many more tools today than we did. And I'm sure we're going to invent, you know, more tools in the future. I mean, my students are now using lidar. That's another one. You know, lidar mapping. I have a native Hawaiian student who's working on the island of Molokai and she's using lidar. And she showed me yesterday her photographs of an area where there are four of these big temple sites. We knew of the temple sites and she's revealing this whole agricultural field system surrounding them. I didn't know this the thing was there because it's all in high grass and invasive species today. You can't see it walking on the ground. The LIDAR picked it up. I was blown away. I said, my God, he will. You know, this is fantastic stuff. So, yeah, new discoveries all the time.
- [54:57]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
Well, when we hear more about those discoveries, no doubt we'll get you and your colleagues back on the show to talk more about it. This has been absolutely brilliant. And last but not least, Patrick, you have written books all about this subject too.
- [55:07]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Oh, yes, I have. And the latest was a revision of a book I did years ago. It's called Feathered Gods and Fishhooks. The Archaeology of Ancient Hawaii. It's the University of Hawaii Press. If anyone wants to delve deeply into what we know about Hawaiian archaeology, you might want to have a look at that book.
- [55:24]
Interviewer (Podcast Host)
Absolutely. Patrick. It just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show today.
- [55:29]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
Now, pleasure has been all mine. Thank you.
- [55:35]
Narrator/Host Introduction
Well, there you go. There was Dr. Patrick Kirch talking you through the story, the fascinating story of the first settlers of Hawaii, the first Hawaiians. I hope you enjoyed the episode. It's about time we return to the Pacific Ocean and these amazing Polynesians who managed to settle all of these islands, isolated islands in the center the of of the world's largest ocean. Would you like us to do Easter island next? Let us know. I'm quite keen. Anyway, thank you for listening to this episode of the Ancients. Please follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favor if you'd also be kind enough to leave us a lovely rating as well. Well, we'd really appreciate that. Don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History hits podcasts ad free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe@historyhit.com subscribe that's all from me. I'll see you in the next episode.
- [56:39]
Narrator (Don't Cross Cat Podcast Promo)
Everyone has that friend who seems kind of perfect for Patty. That friend was desirous until one day.
- [56:47]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
I texted her and she was not getting the text. So I went to Instagram. She has no Instagram anymore. And Facebook. No Facebook anymore.
- [56:55]
Narrator (Don't Cross Cat Podcast Promo)
Desiree was gone. And there was one person who knew the answer.
- [57:00]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
I am a spiritual person, a magical.
- [57:03]
Narrator (Don't Cross Cat Podcast Promo)
Person, a witch, A gorgeous Brazilian influencer called Kat Torres, but who was hiding a secret from wandering. Based on my smash hit podcast, from Brazil comes a new series, Don't Cross Cat, about a search that led me to a mystery in a Texas suburb.
- [57:22]
Dr. Patrick Kirch (Guest Archaeologist)
I'm calling to check on the two missing Brazilian girls, maybe get some undercover crew there. The family are freaking out. They are locked.
- [57:30]
Narrator (Don't Cross Cat Podcast Promo)
I'm Chico Felitti. You can listen to Don't Cross Cat on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.