History Extra Podcast: "Assassins vs Templars"

Date: December 5, 2025
Host: Emily Briffett (Immediate Media)
Guest: Dr. Steve Tibble, author of Assassins and A Battle in Myth and Blood
Main Theme:
An exploration of the real histories of the Assassins (Nizari Ismailis) and the Knights Templar—two small but legendary medieval groups still surrounded by myth, investigating their origins, methods, interactions, and the reasons their stories endure.

Episode Overview

Dr. Steve Tibble joins Emily Briffett to discuss his new book and to unpack how both the Assassins and the Templars, though very different on the surface, reveal striking similarities in how they adapted to their environments, built legendary reputations, and were mythologized through the ages. The conversation challenges pop culture representations, reveals the historical truths behind the myths, and speaks to the enduring fascination these organizations command today.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Do the Assassins & Templars Fascinate Us?

[03:19] Dr. Steve Tibble:

• Both groups are monumental in myth, even as their actual military size and power were small compared to the massive armies around them.
• Each era "reinvents" them, projecting contemporary fears and ideals onto the groups:

  "Every generation reinvents the Templars and reinvents the Assassins. You can learn a lot about ourselves by seeing what we want to project onto groups like that." [03:47]

• Their stories are echoed across books, games, movies, and historical discourse.

2. Who Were the Assassins? Origins & Branding

[05:23] Dr. Steve Tibble:

• "Assassins" (uppercase A) refers specifically to the Nizari Ismailis, a Shiite sect that developed political murder into an art form.
• Seen as heretics and oppressed minorities, they turned to asymmetric violence as survival in a hostile world, establishing a "methodology for survival that doesn’t rely on bulk numbers."
• Their ideology fostered commitment, producing operatives not afraid to die for their cause, but they weren't suicide squads.

Origins

[08:22] Dr. Steve Tibble:

• Both Assassins and Templars emerged around the First Crusade (~1095-1120).
• Assassins originated after a schism in the Fatimid dynasty; followers of Nizar became "splitters from a splitter from a splitter," hated by the Sunni majority and not always embraced by fellow Shiites either.
• Their decentralized, survival-oriented structure was matched by clever branding:

  "The key thing about a brand is the promise... the Assassins, particularly, had this fabulous grasp of branding." [11:30]

The Name 'Assassin'

[12:20] Dr. Steve Tibble:

• "Assassin" comes from "hashashin"—a derogatory term used by their Sunni enemies implying both drug use and moral degradation.
• No evidence suggests they used drugs; the legend served to dehumanize them, but ultimately the Assassins leveraged and embraced this fearful reputation:

  "Fear is what got them into places when nothing else would have done for a group their size." [14:48]

3. Their Skillset: Myth vs Reality

[15:42] Dr. Steve Tibble:

• The real Assassins were adept at infiltration, blending in, languages, and playing the long game ("sleepers" infiltrating households for years).
• They could be anyone: "He could be your best friend, ... a beggar in the street. There’s no uniform that you can go on." [15:53]
• Contrary to the crazed fanatic stereotype: "They must have been the opposite of a drugged up junkie... smart, intelligent, having something to add." [16:23]
• Escape plans were common; their value as assets outweighed using them as mere cannon fodder.

4. Assassins vs. Saladin — A Hate-Hate Relationship

[18:30] Dr. Steve Tibble:

• Multiple assassination attempts targeted Saladin, revealing the personal stakes of asymmetric warfare.
• Assassins could strike at leaders, instilling a unique fear not possible for large armies:

  "The assassins are the kind of needle. They're the kind of sniper shot." [26:04]

• Ultimately, after failed attempts and mutual threats, Assassins and Saladin struck an uneasy, pragmatic truce:

  "These two personally brutalized enemies... came to some form of understanding. And you can see that basically there was an impasse..." [27:53]

5. Assassin Bases and Leadership

[28:17] Dr. Steve Tibble:

• Post-schism, Assassins built strongholds in Persia (Alamut) and Syria, led by charismatic and ruthless leaders like Sinan.
• Rivalries existed even within the movement (e.g., Sinan fending off assassin squads from their own faction).

6. Assassins and Templars: Cooperation, Not Eternal Enemies

[30:10] Emily Briffett & Dr. Steve Tibble:

• Contrary to popular myth (and Assassin’s Creed), relations between Templars/Crusaders and Assassins were often pragmatic, sometimes friendly.
• Assassins often fled to Christian (Crusader) castles for refuge; sometimes even buried their leaders there.
• Ideological enmity was far greater with their Sunni neighbors than Christians.
• "Hits" on Christians were often paid for by others; both groups prioritized survival and profit just as much as religious ideology:

  "It's just very pragmatic... They often did their hits for quite large sums of money for non ideological reasons." [33:03]

7. Similarities Between Assassins & Templars: Parallel Survival Strategies

[34:33] Dr. Steve Tibble:

• Both were small, outnumbered, ideologically committed, and lacked technological advantages.
• Developed “fit for purpose” approaches—elite squads (temporal or assassin) dedicated to key tasks, compensating for lack of numbers with focus and reputation-building.
• Shared a culture of devotion/martyrdom; their “brand” relied on being feared and believed capable of almost anything:

  "They both intuitively understood that their brand and their promise of death meant that they had to have a delivery mechanism that was supremely focused." [38:50]

Cult-like Elements

[39:27] Dr. Steve Tibble:

• Both had “cult” attributes (intense devotion to cause, willingness to become martyrs, insular culture), though the term “cult” need not be pejorative:

  "There are aspects of that... a cult is a devotee of a particular set of ideas. And I think... they both have the attributes of a cult." [39:37]

8. Downfall and Afterlives: From History to Legend

[41:46] Dr. Steve Tibble:

• Both groups’ actual endings were tragic/grim:
  • Templars scapegoated and destroyed by the French monarchy post-crusade.
  • Assassins annihilated in Persia by the Mongols (attempted genocide) and then by Mamluks in Syria; their leaders humiliated and executed.
• The secrecy, lost archives, and dramatic demise of both organizations left gaps that made myth inevitable:

  "You can pretty much say anything you like about the Templars... Both of them are slightly, you know enough about them to see that they're extraordinary... but equally there's enough gaps that you can write whatever you want onto it." [45:48]

9. Final Takeaways: Lessons and Warnings From History

[47:24] Dr. Steve Tibble:

• Both groups exemplify how small, endangered groups can forge paths to survival through ingenuity and commitment–not always for “good,” but exemplifying the human will to survive.
• Challenge the urge to label (e.g., “terrorist,” “satanic”)—such labels hinder true understanding.

  "...don’t necessarily put labels on things. You call assassins 'terrorists' and you’ve kind of shut down any kind of conversation you can have... you can call the Templars 'Satan worshipers' or whatever... you’ve just shut down 99% of the reality labels, the death of history." [47:50]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Every generation reinvents the Templars and reinvents the Assassins."
  – Dr. Steve Tibble [03:47]

• "Fear is what got them into places when nothing else would have done for a group their size."
  – Dr. Steve Tibble [14:48]

• "The Assassins are the kind of needle. They're the kind of sniper shot."
  – Dr. Steve Tibble [26:04]

• "The relationship between the Assassins and...the Templars...was bizarrely amicable sometimes."
  – Dr. Steve Tibble [30:39]

• "They both intuitively understood that their brand and their promise of death meant that they had to have a delivery mechanism that was supremely focused."
  – Dr. Steve Tibble [38:50]

• "Call the Assassins 'terrorists' and you've kind of shut down any kind of conversation you can have... that's the death of history."
  – Dr. Steve Tibble [47:49]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:19] – Why legends like the Assassins and Templars endure
• [05:23] – Who the Assassins really were–origin and perceptions
• [08:22] – Parallel rise of Assassins and Templars, and the context of their formation
• [12:20] – The meaning and impact of the name "Assassin"
• [15:42] – The real skillset and operational style of the Assassins
• [18:30] – The personal war: Assassins vs. Saladin
• [28:17] – Emergence of Assassin strongholds and leadership struggles
• [30:10] – Historical reality of Assassins and Templars' relationship
• [34:33] – Parallel survival strategies: similarities between the two groups
• [41:46] – The tragic downfalls and mythic afterlives of both
• [47:24] – The bigger lessons, humanity, and the danger of oversimplifying history

Conclusion

The episode unveils the historical truths behind two of the most misunderstood and mythologized groups in medieval history, demonstrating that the reality—marked by adaptation, pragmatism, and eerie parallels—is even more fascinating than the legends. It urges listeners to question received wisdom, challenge reductive labels, and appreciate the complexity behind enduring historical reputations.