Before the volcano: life in ancient Pompeii

Summary

History Extra Podcast: “Before the Volcano: Life in Ancient Pompeii”

Release Date: January 11, 2026
Host: Kev Lotchen (Immediate Media)
Guest: Dr. Jess Venner (Roman historian, Pompeii expert)

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Episode Overview

In the first episode of a four-part series, host Kev Lotchen and historian Dr. Jess Venner explore life in ancient Pompeii before its destruction by Mount Vesuvius in 79 AD. The conversation dives into the vibrant, everyday realities of Pompeian society, its diverse population, urban life, commerce, and the fascinating blend of myth and science surrounding the volcano. They also examine why the exact date of the eruption is so hotly debated. The episode combines scholarly insight with lively, relatable discussion, aiming to humanize the ancient Romans and challenge long-held assumptions about Pompeii’s demise.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Fascination with Pompeii

• Pompeii is preserved by tragedy—both lucky and unlucky—which grants unique insight into Roman life.

  “There is so much of it that’s been preserved in Pompeii. …We can learn so much about Roman life from this city.”
  — Dr. Jess Venner [03:49]

2. Pompeii’s Urban Life Before the Eruption

• Not an extraordinary city to its contemporaries—rather, an “ordinary Roman town” with bustling streets, markets, baths, an amphitheater, and green spaces.
• Population estimated at ~20,000 (slavery complicates estimates).
• Exceptionally diverse: A population mix including locals (Samnites, Oscans, Greeks), slaves, and traders from as far as India.
• Rich in commerce, especially in shops, fish sauce (garum), wine, and agricultural products.

  “It was full of bustling life...a tapestry of life in Pompeii.”
  — Dr. Jess Venner [04:22]

• Pompeii’s famed fish sauce—garum—was locally branded and exported.

  “We’re not saying Pompeii invented fish sauce, but they maybe invented Heinz.”
  — Kev Lotchen [08:43]

3. Comparison to Herculaneum

• Herculaneum: Smaller (~4-5,000), wealthier, more luxurious (described as a “Roman Riviera”).

  “Pompeii was very much your ordinary guy...but Herculaneum was almost a pleasure resort.”
  — Dr. Jess Venner [06:14]

4. Situating Pompeii and Its Neighbors

• Map-like description of the Bay of Naples and proximity of key locations (Misenum, Naples, Herculaneum, Aplontis, Pompeii, Stabiae, Sorrentum).
• Pompeii is 9 km from Vesuvius (Herculaneum even closer).

  “When you’re standing there, you can really get an idea of how close the volcano is. It’s intense.”
  — Dr. Jess Venner [10:23]

5. Did Pompeians Know Vesuvius Was a Volcano?

• Most citizens did NOT realize they were living next to a volcano; it hadn’t erupted in centuries.
• Ancient sources (Vitruvius, Strabo, Seneca) note the strange geology and possibility of volcanic activity, but this was mainly an elite preoccupation.

  “They’re like, so close!”
  — Kev Lotchen [12:55]
  “They have some idea about this...there would have been murmurs.”
  — Dr. Jess Venner [12:58]

• Mythic explanations included giants and the hero Hercules being entombed beneath Vesuvius.

6. Myths and Frescoes: Giants, Gods, and Bacchus

• Roman myth placed giants under the mountain, their struggles causing tremors.
• Frescoes show Vesuvius lush with vineyards, and even reference myths via imagery of Bacchus (god of wine).
• Eruption also altered the volcano’s shape—from one cone to two.

  “Actually, during the eruption, there were whispers that the giants were seen in the smoke.”
  — Dr. Jess Venner [15:39]

7. Frequent Earthquakes and the People’s Attitude

• Earthquakes were routine—a risk Pompeii’s citizens accepted due to the area’s fertility.

  “If you ask anybody in Naples region...they’ll say, ‘oh yeah, it happens all the time.’”
  — Dr. Jess Venner [17:52]

• Earthquakes (notably 62 or 63 AD) caused severe destruction and led to practical adaptations: rebuilding, opening new wells, and increased urban agriculture.

Natural Disaster Resilience

• Pompeians had rebuilt after previous disasters and were actively renovating at the time of the final eruption.

  “They’re an incredibly resilient people. I love them so much for this because they just don’t give up.”
  — Dr. Jess Venner [19:24]

Example: The Temple of Isis and Pompeian Politics

• Temple of Isis was repaired swiftly post-earthquake, credited (for political advantage) to a 6-year-old whose family sought to gain political status.

  “It was a very expensive thing to repair this temple, but...he was given a really important political status.”
  — Dr. Jess Venner [22:18]

8. Famous Pompeians in Focus: Caecilius

• The real-life banker Caecilius, famous in modern Latin textbooks, likely died in an earthquake before the final eruption.
• Example of how real individuals’ lives and identities are hard to trace, except for the wealthy.

  “It’s weird...You try and recreate their histories, but then you can’t work out where they live or necessarily what they did.”
  — Dr. Jess Venner [27:19]

9. Renovation and Urban Agriculture: A City in Transition

• Urban agriculture inside the city walls exploded after the 62 AD earthquake (250% increase).
• The city was full of shops, construction, and adaptation—contradicting the outdated view that the elite abandoned Pompeii pre-eruption.

10. The “Pomegranate Problem”: When Did Vesuvius Erupt?

• Traditional date: 24 August 79 AD — but Dr. Venner and others dispute this.
• Problems with relying on Pliny the Younger's letter: possible transcription errors, date confusion.

  “The traditional date...is the 24th of August, AD 79. I don’t think that it was then, and there’s a lot of people that don’t think it was then...”
  — Dr. Jess Venner [32:32]

Evidence for a Later (Autumn) Date

• Archaeobotanical finds: carbonized pomegranates, sealed wine jars after the grape harvest, walnuts/chestnuts/figs.

• Heating equipment and warm clothes found in Pompeii houses—unthinkable for August.

• Fresh charcoal graffiti dated to 17 October found during recent excavations.

• Wind direction patterns during the eruption incompatible with a summer event.

• A coin from the House of the Golden Bracelet, minted after September 7–8, 79 AD, found in Pompeii—proving inhabitants were still there after the supposed August date.

  “So this tells us again that it cannot have been in August.”
  — Dr. Jess Venner [39:10]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Pompeii’s magic:

  “It’s a tapestry of life in Pompeii.”
  — Dr. Jess Venner [05:22]

• On Pompeii’s fish sauce empire:

  “We’re not saying Pompeii invented fish sauce, but they maybe invented Heinz.”
  — Kev Lotchen [08:43]

• On myth vs science:

  “There’s a poem called Etna ... they sort of reject the idea that there’s gods and giants under the volcano. They’re trying to find a scientific reason.”
  — Dr. Jess Venner [12:58]

• On earthquake resilience:

  “They’re an incredibly resilient people ... they just don’t give up.”
  — Dr. Jess Venner [19:24]

• On graffiti as social media:

  “I love the fact that this [graffiti] is like a comment board, like on Instagram, where everyone’s just arguing.”
  — Dr. Jess Venner [40:25]

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Timestamped Key Segments

• [03:02] – Introduction to Pompeii’s legacy & series goals
• [04:22] – Everyday life and diversity in Pompeii
• [06:14] – Comparison of Pompeii, Herculaneum, and other Bay of Naples towns
• [07:28] – Pompeii’s role in Roman trade, politics, agriculture
• [09:13] – Geographic orientation of Vesuvius and key towns
• [10:50] – Did locals recognize Vesuvius as a danger?
• [15:00] – Giants, Hercules, gods, and volcano myths
• [17:52] – Frequency of earthquakes; how Pompeians adapted
• [19:24] – Major earthquake of 62/63 AD; community resilience
• [25:32] – The real Caecilius: fact vs Latin textbook fiction
• [29:13] – Ongoing urban growth and resourcefulness after disaster
• [32:25] – The “pomegranate problem” and eruption date controversy
• [34:28] – Evidence for a fall eruption
• [39:36] – Graffiti of the week: Successus, Severus, and Iris—ancient love rivalries play out on Pompeian walls
• [41:36] – Humanizing ancient Pompeiians; preview of next episode

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“Graffiti of the Week”: Humanity on Ancient Walls

“Successus the weaver loves the barmaid of the inn called Iris, who doesn’t care for him, but he asks and she feels sorry for him...A rival wrote this farewell. And then somebody replies in a different script...‘You’re jealous. Don’t try to muscle in on someone who’s better looking and is a wicked and charming man.’ And then the original person writes back...‘I have written and spoken. You love Iris, who doesn’t care for you. Severus to Successus.’”
— Dr. Jess Venner [39:36]

“I love the fact that this is like a comment board, like on Instagram, where everyone’s just arguing.”
— Dr. Jess Venner [40:25]

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Tone & Language

The dialogue is friendly, playful, and accessible, making complex historical debates relatable. Humorous asides abound, especially when discussing myths, ancient politics, and textbook Roman “celebrities.” Dr. Venner’s expertise brings depth, while Kev Lotchen keeps the mood lively and inviting.

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Conclusion

This episode goes beyond the disaster narrative to paint a vivid, human portrait of Pompeii as a living, changing, and complex city—utterly ordinary in the Roman world, yet extraordinary in what it reveals to us. The debate over the eruption’s date illustrates the intersection of archaeological science and textual tradition, while graffiti, myths, and individual stories breathe life into ancient ruins. The stage is set for the next episode: a detailed account of “Volcano Day” itself.

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For Further Exploration

• Visit the History Extra app for related reading and bonus material on Pompeii, Vesuvius, and the wider Roman Empire.
• Next episode: “The Apocalyptic 24 Hours.”

Transcript

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[History Extra Podcast Announcer]

The catastrophic events of 79 AD in which Pompeii and Herculaneum were buried beneath masses of volcanic ash and Rock produced a uniquely revealing insight into the ancient world. In our latest four part Sunday series, Kev Lottchen will be speaking to historian Jess Venner about life before those terrible events and what unfolded when Vesuvius erupted. Kicking off with today's first episode.

[Kev Lotchen]

Once a thriving Roman city, life stopped in Pompeii in AD 79 when the volcano Vesuvius erupted, burying the city and its inhabitants and preserving them forever. I'm Kev Lotchen and I'm joined by Dr. Jess Venner, a historian of the Roman world and a Pompeii expert. Jess, thank you for joining us.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Thank you. I'm so, so excited to be here.

[Kev Lotchen]

In this first episode, we're going to discover what life was like in Pompeii before the eruption, the myths surrounding the volcano Vesuvius, and discover why we can't put a date on this cataclysmic event. Jess, I wonder, as I always thought, Pompeii is such an enduring name in history, could you give us a kind of pressier of what we're gonna talk about throughout the entire series and what makes Pompeii so fascinating for us today?

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yeah, Pompeii is one of those places that just captures everybody's imagination I think because there is so much of it that's been preserved in Pompeii. We were very lucky, but also very unfortunate in was preserved so we can learn so much about Roman life from this city. So we're going to have a look at how the people lived, who they were, and also their demise and the history of the city after the event that we will know so much about.

[Kev Lotchen]

Let's start with a life before the eruption. What kind of city was Pompeii? How did it sit in the Roman world?

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Pompeii is a really interesting one because it was an altogether ordinary town. It seems extraordinary to us now because of its preservation, but it was very, very ordinary. So it was full of bus settling life. We had a very diverse population. They were arriving to the city from the river Sarno nearby and also the sea that was nearby too, and the roads. So it was a Roman colony. It was colonized not even 200 years before it was destroyed by the Romans. And previous to this it had a very diverse population that was very local, of Samnites and Oscans and Greeks. So it's a very diverse city. But day to day they were rich in art and architecture. They were very merchant heavy. So there were a lot of shops that we can learn so much about. There are so much of my favourite bits in the shops, we have baths, we have an amphitheatre and a Greek theatre. It was very, very green in Pompeii as well. It's a tapestry of life in Pompeii.

[Kev Lotchen]

And that's really interesting because I think in kind of modern day, we think of it as a classically Roman city, but as you're saying, it's kind of a hodgepodge. It was another city before it was a Roman one.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Exactly. It's a real melting pot. And particularly because we sort of forget the slaves that are part of this community. And they're always discounted, almost always in population estimates as well, because we can't trace them. But they were incredibly diverse and brought their own cultures as well. We also had people arriving by ships to trade. They were bringing their own culture. We have things arriving in Pompeii as from as far away as India and people of course, too. So it's incredibly diverse.

[Kev Lotchen]

It sounds like a really rich trading city. And, you know, we're talking about Pompeii, obviously the story encompasses more than Pompeii. There's also Herculaneum. How does Pompeii stand against Herculaneum? Are they quite similar places?

[Dr. Jess Venner]

They're actually quite different. They're very similar and they're very different. That's not a very helpful answer, is it? So Pompeii, we think the population was about 20, 000 people is the best estimate. Some people say 15, 000. I'm more in the 20,000 camp. And like I say, because of the slaves, but then herculaneum was about 4 to 5,000 people, we think, and it was a very rich, wealthy city. It was right on the sea. So it had its own harbour right there. I mean, Pompeii had harbour, maybe two, but Herculaneum was very wealthy. So you walk around, the houses are incredible in Herculaneum and they've even got a sort of like marbly type streets. And it was fancy, whereas Pompeii was very much your ordinary guy lived there. They were fancy people too. But Herculaneum was like this almost a pleasure resort in a way.

[Kev Lotchen]

It's like Roman Riviera, if you like.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yes, it is kind of like that. Yeah. So if you go to, like, Capri and you've got all those lovely shopping streets, it's a bit. That's the image I have in my head of Herculaneum.

[Kev Lotchen]

Yeah, Obviously Pompeii, Herculaneum. These are really familiar to us because of what happened there. But in Roman terms, how important were they like, is there a case that we know them so much because of this event rather than in Rome world, would they have had that same kind of importance?

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yes. So Pompeii was well known for its agricultural output in particular. So in the ancient writers we have people talking about Pompeii producing quite famous produce. So it was famous for its wine, which would give you a headache the next day. So Pliny the Elder tells you to avoid it if you don't want a headache. So it wasn't very good wine, but it was, it was because of the acidic soil, so it was very strong. And then we've got famous cherries and cabbages as well. Cabbages, yeah. But Pompeii was well known as being also a political centre too. When you walk around Pompeii, you see all these graffiti about the politics and you really do get an idea that this was a political centre where there was a lot going on. So that's how they viewed Pompeii. But it was also really important trade wise. Like I said, we had a harbour, so we had things coming into Pompeii that would then go out to Rome and beyond. And they were very well known for their fish sources as well.

[Kev Lotchen]

Garum.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yes, garum, yes. Yeah. We have Aulus, Umbricius, Scaurus, who was probably the first person to brand something. It was a bit like ketchup. So he branded his fish sauce and Pompeii was famous for it. So again, Pliny the Elder says Pompeii's really well known for its garum.

[Kev Lotchen]

So we're not saying Pompeii invented fish sauce, but they maybe invented Heinz.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yeah, yeah, kind of. Yeah, exactly. Yes. Or any other brand.

[Kev Lotchen]

Other brands are available. Obviously we're talking about Pompeii, Herculaneum. These cities are the ones that suffer the most from Vesuvius. This is a story that covers the entire Bay of Naples area. I wonder if you just help situate us where these places are in relation to Vesuvius. Where are some other places that we're gonna crop up in the story that we need to know about?

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yeah, absolutely. So if you picture the Bay of Naples, it's sort of like an upside down smile is the best way I'm gonna describe this. If you're not familiar with it, we've got Mount Vesuvius right in the middle of the top of that Smith sad face. If we start at the left, we've got Misenum which is where a fleet of ships that Rome kept. Pliny the Elder was actually in charge of this fleet of ships, and he lived there. And they would be able to see Vesuvius. Then you go along the coast and we've got Naples. And obviously Naples is in exactly the same place now. And then you keep going around the coast. We've got Herculaneum, and as I mentioned, it was on the coast. Then it's not anymore because of the eruption. It pushed the sea out. And then we have Mount Vesuvius. And now Herculaneum is, as the crow flies, it's 6 km from Vesuvius or there, or thereabouts. So it's really quite close. Yeah. When you're standing there, you can really get an idea of how close the volcano is. It's intense. And then you go round, you've got Aplontis, which is a location where the wife of the Emperor Nero, we think Poppaea, it was her villa, potentially. This is an incredible villa and it's not very well visited. So when you go, you're kind of often on your own.

[Kev Lotchen]

It's still there.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yep. Yeah. You can walk around. She had a swimming pool, like all these slave quarters are still there. It's. It's amazing. Do go. And then we've got Pompeii. So Pompeii is about 9km from Vesuvius. It's further inland, but it's a little bit further away than Herculaneum was. And then you go round and you've got Stabii and Sorrentum, which is Sorrento now. And New Syria is nearby to Pompeii as well. And that we're going to probably talk about them as well as in the series.

[Kev Lotchen]

Did the people of Pompeii, Herculaneum, know that they were living in the shadow of a volcano? Cause were they living kind of going, oh, there's a mortal danger here, and just going, well, you know, this is.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Fine in the area today. I have asked people and they say, oh, where else would we go? So I think there's an element of that attitude. It's a very fertile area, so that's why they were based there. But in general, no, they didn't really. No. So we have different writers from the time alluding to the fact that it may be a volcano, because they're relating it to Mount Etna, which they know is one, but it hadn't erupted for 700 years before 79. So it was ready to go, like it was, you know, it was gonna be a big one. So we've got Vitruvius, who starts talking about Spongstone, which is pumice. And he's also talking about there's like this pumex Pompeianus. This is the pumice. So they've called it Pompeii. Like, basically, it's very cool. But he's also talking about sort of like flames around Vesuvius. But Vitruvius was an architect, so he was very much interested in the stones around the area. Then we've got different people. Like, Strabo says that there's rocks that look a bit suspicious around the volcano, that they look like they've been eaten by fire. So again, he's alluding to this potentially. He also says the entire area between Cumae and Sicily. So this is. This is in that area, he says it's full of interconnecting subterranean chambers. So they think that there's tunnels basically under the earth, and they think this is where the earthquakes are coming from. So I'm sure we'll talk about the earthquakes. Then we've got other people who are saying that the area is called fiery. So the Flegrian sort of. You've got. The area is the Phlegraean area, and it's fiery. It means fiery. So they've got some idea about this. And then we've got Seneca the Younger, so he's quite a popular voice in this. And he does talk about volcanoes and underground passages again, and earthquakes. And they're like, hmm, it's very hollow underneath the ground. There's something going on there.

[Kev Lotchen]

They're like, so close. Yes, Almost all the time.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Oh, yeah. No, it's really, really close. And there's like this poem called Aetna. We don't know the author of Etna, but they sort of reject the idea that there's gods and giants under the volcano. They're trying to find a scientific reason for volcanic eruptions. And in this poem, this is a quote, they say the place between Naples and Cumae is a witness of volcanic activity now cold for many years, although sulfur spurts forth continuously in the fertile soil. So they are very, very close. But you've got to think about who's reading these things. You know, it's not the everyday person. So I think there would have been murmurs and I think they would have potentially sort of been rumours about this sort of thing and they might have gone, hmm, this is a bit, you know, bit suspicious.

[Kev Lotchen]

Is this one of those cases where the knowledge is probably kept more Aristocratic?

[Dr. Jess Venner]

I think so, yeah. Unfortunately so. But I don't think they would have done anything about it anyway because like I say, it was so fertile we'd get three to four harvests a year in this area. So there was a very good reason. There's a trade off there to be there. Yeah, 100%. And it still is now. Yeah, it's a very good reason to be there. Yes.

[Kev Lotchen]

And there's also, you mentioned Pliny the Elder and he's another one. He has this encyclopedia, right. Was it 37 volumes? It's enormous.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kev Lotchen]

And I'm fairly sure, doesn't he have a section on volcanoes and he doesn't. He doesn't recognize Vesuvius as one.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

No, exactly. And like we mentioned, he's living in the shadow of Vesuvius. He's looking at it every day pretty much. And he's been many, many different places and seen many different things and no, he hasn't mentioned that it's. And again, I think he has like these inklings about different areas, but he's never said, oh yeah, that's gonna be a volcano. So this is why he's so fascinated when it happens, which is nuts really. He's like, oh my God, yes, something's happening.

[Kev Lotchen]

That's the scientist coming out there. It's like, it's cataclysmic. But I'm so intrigued.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yeah, I'm gonna go towards it and see what's going on.

[Kev Lotchen]

We're gonna talk more about that shortly. I wonder if I can pick up, you talked about giants just a moment ago. What's the story of giants under the mountain?

[Dr. Jess Venner]

It's like a. It's a mad one really, because there's different stories that come into it. So we have this Silius Italicus, who writes about Hannibal being told about the geographical features in the area. And I've got another nice quote because it says, men say that the giants laid low by Hercules weight. So Hercules, who was obviously like fighting the giants, we all know about Hercules. They shake the earth that was put on top of them. So it's like they've been put under there as almost a punishment that over a wide extent the fields are burnt again with the burning with their hot blasting breath. And whenever they threaten to burst the constraints laid on them, the sky trembles.

[Kev Lotchen]

Oh, wow.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

So they're like, wait a minute, is that what's going on? There's like giants beneath.

[Kev Lotchen]

The giants are what, they're hungry? They're angry?

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yeah, yeah, they're mad and they're like shaking the earth. So, I mean, it's such a human thing to try and find a reason. And mythology is always one of those things that tries to find a reason for scientific. Where there's a gap in the understanding, particularly in popular culture. So that was one of the answers. But then we've got sort of Hercules does this journey through, from Spain, through Italy. This is where we get potentially the name for Herculaneum. And that is also mentioned then about the. About these giants. Again, we've got giants everywhere. So, yeah, I reckon this was another thing that they thought. And actually, interestingly, during the eruption, there were whispers that the giants were seen in the smoke from the eruption. There's also a fresco in the house of the centenary, and it was a very wealthy house in Pompeii. Fascinatingly, they have a picture of Vesuvius in the house and it's covered in vines and trellises. So to the left of the volcano in this painting, we've got Bacchus, the God of wine, dressed as a bunch of grapes. It's amazing. And then we've got these snakes around it, which are very protective. And that's very typical. You'd have that around shrines, you'd have these serpents. But another interesting thing about this is that Vesuvius in this painting only has one cone. If you go to the region today, you will see that it has two. That happened during the 79 AD eruption because of the force of.

[Kev Lotchen]

It completely changed the topology of.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Exactly, yeah. So we've got, like, a lot of interesting things coming out of this one fresco alone. But the main thing is that it was really verdant and even Spartacus is supposed to have stayed on Vesuvius, hiding and using the vines to get down.

[Kev Lotchen]

And, yeah, that was an incredible little story.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

So, yeah, it's a good one, but it's a good fresco that gives us a good idea of what it was like. So, yeah, they didn't think it. They just thought it was a wonderful, fertile place.

[Kev Lotchen]

Wow. I know we've talked about how they may not have known it was a volcano, but I imagine they knew something was amiss in that region because there were tremors. Like, historically, it wasn't unknown for the earth to shake.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Exactly. Yeah. It was something that was just so normal. So Pliny the Younger, who was Pliny the eldest nephew, he also wrote a lot and he tells us later on that the people of Campania weren't concerned because earthquakes were just so common for them. And it's a bit like Again, it's like today where you'll ask anybody in the Naples region and they'll say, oh, yeah, it happens all the time. Like, there was one last week, you know, it happens all the time. But they did know that something was going on and, like, it could have been the giants or it could have been these underground passages, interestingly so. In my doctoral research, I looked into urban agriculture in the place, so with vineyards, orchards, that sort of thing, and realized that wells seem to be popping up after the major earthquake which happened in AD 62, which I'm sure we'll go into. They seem to be opening up wells again. And the writers say if you let out the air from underground passages through wells. So it's almost like they're trying to relieve the pressure that they think is happening under the. Like under the right.

[Kev Lotchen]

Okay.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

So I reckon this is some sort of acknowledgement that there's something going on there. But we've also got, like, lots of reconstruction going on in Pompeii in the lead up to the eruption. It was happening all the time. So, yeah, they were pretty. Pretty used to it. Probably pretty fed up with this. We're having to, like, fix these buildings all over the place.

[Kev Lotchen]

Well, let's talk about the eruption of 62 or 63. I think there's some debate there, more date debate. But that is one where, you know, the Pompeians, they've seen crisis before.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yeah, they're an incredibly resilient people. I love them so much for this because they just don't give up. And I just don't think that's changed either. They're incredibly resilient and resourceful in the area today. So we think that the earthquake of 62 or 63. I go with 62 happened on the 5th of February. And we know about this because Seneca tells us in his Natural Questions he's rather fascinated by earthquakes. And he writes that an earthquake flattened Pompeii and it took out a lot of Pompeii. There were great ruins in Herculaneum, and it caused minor damage in New Syria and Naples. But Pompeii was really badly affected. We think it was like between 5.1 and 6 on the Richter scale. So it's, you know, it's pretty bad. But he said afterwards that there were sort of people. I can give you a quote, actually, because he said it caused great destruction in Campania, which had never been safe from this danger, but which had time and again got off with a fright. So he's like, oh, dear, this has got worse. They also say that a flock of 600 sheep was killed and statues were split open. We think that the sheep were killed by toxic gases. Okay. Yeah. So that's another indication. That's the very, very niche detail about the sheep. Oh, my gosh, so many as well.

[Kev Lotchen]

600.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

600 is pretty bad. And some people were deranged and afterwards wander about unable to help themselves. They were just so traumatised by this event. It was not good for them. We have a frieze.

[Kev Lotchen]

Yes.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

So it's in the house of Caecilius.

[Kev Lotchen]

Secundus, one of my favourite Romans.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

He is for all of us, I think. Yeah. Because he's very familiar to some people that learnt Latin, Right? Yes. In his house we have a frieze that depicts this very earthquake. We think he's put it around this altar in the atrium and we can literally see statues wobbling on their horses. And they are statues. It's like a little joke that they're having. And in it you can see the Temple of Jupiter, which is the main temple in the city or any Roman city. And it's the one in the forum. And this was damaged so badly from this earthquake that it wasn't being used at the time of the eruption 17 years later. But we can also see from the earthquake there are different priorities of the Pompeian people as well. So they immediately repaired the temple of Isis. And it was repaired by, I think it was six years old. So a six year old child supposedly repaired this temple and it was actually his parents, they thought, oh, this is a really good opportunity to get him into politics. So it's a very expensive thing, obviously, to repair a temple, but they repaired this temple and you can go and you can see this, this inscription which was above the temple door. It's, you know, this guy. And now he's been made into a politician. He was given a really important political.

[Kev Lotchen]

Status and if you make it in Pompeii politics, well, you'll.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Exactly, exactly. And he'd already done that, so he was probably like in his. He would have been in his 20s, right? I guess. So that was.

[Kev Lotchen]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

So when the eruption happened. So, yeah, his name was Numerius Popidius Celcinus and he was the son of a freedman. So the freedman was thinking, oh, wait, I can't do anything like that. But I'm gonna make sure that my son does. They were clearly very wealthy. And actually this family are tied into the temple quite considerably because we have some graffiti opposite the temple that's calling for the election of Gaius Cuspius Pansa, who was about to come into office when the eruption happened. And it's another person from this family, another papidius who is calling for this. And it says the people, the worshippers of Isis call for his election. So they're everywhere, his family, and they're all related to the temple of Isis. I just love that.

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[Kev Lotchen]

Wait, you did?

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[Kev Lotchen]

You don't say.

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[Kev Lotchen]

Wow.

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Way to go. So about that picture frame. Ah, forget about it. Until Carvana makes one, I'm not interested.

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[Dr. Jess Venner]

Pick up. These may apply.

[Kev Lotchen]

I think we have to dial back very quickly. If it's alright with you. To Kaecilius.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yeah, let's Go back to him.

[Kev Lotchen]

He is one of my favorite Romans. I actually have here the book one of the Cambridge Latin course, which introduces Kaecilius. So Kaeceius is a bit of a hero if you do a Latin GCSE in some quarters. Who is this man, Jess?

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Caecilius was a banker. He was a very wealthy, important banker in Pompeii. And we know a lot about him because his tablets were found in his house. Interestingly about these tablets is. It's really fun detail because. Or not for him, because they trail off immediately before this earthquake. He stops writing before this earthquake, which suggests that he potentially died during this earthquake.

[Kev Lotchen]

So what you're saying is my entire Latin GCC is a lie because Pompeii, in this course, Kaikilius, the way they thought he is. He survives to Pompeii at least. I think he maybe perishes in Pompeii. But then. So you're saying he never. He never got her?

[Dr. Jess Venner]

No, he was probably not gonna make it anyway. Cause he was pretty old. So, you know, I don't think he would have made it. But I think it's really bizarre that his family were like. If he did die during this earthquake, that they were like, oh, yeah, let's commemorate it with a really jokey freeze around the.

[Kev Lotchen]

Yeah, it's the event that caused his potential.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yeah. I mean, there doesn't seem to be any other reason that his records were just cut off a few days before the earthquake. It's a very weird coincidence if not.

[Kev Lotchen]

Yeah, yeah, that's very strange.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

But he is an interesting character. Cause he's got, like a wart in this statue and. And I think he was descendant from Freedmen. I think at least his dad was. I don't think he was. He might have been, but he's a really interesting character and he did very well for himself.

[Kev Lotchen]

And this is the thing I found fascinating. The family is real as well. Right. All the people in this book, like Metella, Quintus, they're all real Romans.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yeah, they are. There's so many people that we know about in Pompeii, but equally we don't know anything about them. It's weird. Weird one, because you're trying to trace these people and you sort of, like, track them down and they just sort of dissipate. You try and recreate their histories, but then you can't work out where they live or necessarily what they did. So I've written a book on some characters in Pompeii and trying to track them down is very, very hard because, you know, the wealthier they get, the more information you have on them. So Panzer, that I mentioned a minute ago, we have a lot of information on him because he's a politician. We have a lot of information on other people because of Kaecilius's records. We know about the loans they were doing or the things they were buying. But then there's people like slaves who are really hard to track down, if at all. You can't track them down at all. Sometimes they're mentioned in transactions and that's literally it. So it's hard to find people. And too often in the past, people were assigned to houses. So you'll have the house of Pansa, and we don't know that he lived there, you know. Yeah, I mean, you can't possibly know, but there are good indications sometimes. So there's a house of Octavius Courtier, who we think lived there because there was a ring, his signet ring, that they would use to press into documents, and that was found inside the house. So that's a fairly good indication because why would it be there otherwise unless someone nicked it? But it was a very wealthy house, so it does kind of add up. But in other cases it's just sort of like based on graffiti or it's very hard to pin them down.

[Kev Lotchen]

So you kind of talked there that Pompeii was still being renovated at the time of Vesuvius. So it's almost like it's a statement of intent. Like they know they've got these earthquakes that are causing problems and, you know, potentially this damage could keep coming and get worse, but there's no sense they might abandon the city or anything. It was getting to that point.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yeah, no, it's quite an outdated view in academia that the wealthy people left the city. This is. This used to be the dominant discourse, that wealthy people left the city because there was too much going on and they just moved somewhere else. And then you had this rise supposedly of the lower classes into positions that they shouldn't have been. That was the view. And obviously that's incredibly outdated. I mean, this view comes from like the 1900s and it just continued to be accepted. They didn't have the same view that we do in that sense of like, what's the word? Social classes. They did, but it wasn't as clear cut as we don't have the sort of capitalist labels of working class in that or middle class in that era. A lot more people than we think were involved in commerce and the Ancient writers really don't like commerce. Like, they think it's really. Yeah, it's a really low thing to do and be involved in. And yet they were all involved in it, you know, because it made money, and that was the main thing. You had to have money, and then you could be important and be in politics because you needed to pay for it. So in Pompeii, we have a lot of this specialized manufacturing starting to occur in the first century AD and especially towards the end of their, you know, when they were gonna be taken over by the volcano. So it's a very busy city and there's a lot of specialized manufacturing going on and a lot of shops popping up after the earth and a lot of gardens that I mentioned popping up after the earthquake. So, yeah, there's a lot going on, but I don't think that they went anywhere. I think they just adapted, essentially. My doctoral research looked at this urban agriculture. I found that there was a 250% increase in urban agriculture after the earthquake of AD 62 inside the walls. That's incredible.

[Kev Lotchen]

So it's a growth period, essentially.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Huge growth period. Yeah, it depends how you look at it, because you could say, okay, all of these buildings were being damaged. They were damaged in these tremors, particularly this big one. And instead of rebuild because they knew there'd be more tremors, they're like, well, we'll do something else instead. We'll make some money out of it for a bit and maybe we'll rebuild later. They reused the materials. They were really, really resourceful. But who owns these plots? It's rich people.

[Kev Lotchen]

You know, it's Kaechelius and his banking chunks.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Exactly. It's people like him. So it's not that there's a lower class rising necessarily. It's just that there's different things going on and they're still being as resourceful as they were before.

[Kev Lotchen]

If you'd like to know more about how Pompeians reacted to a crisis, Jess spoke to history actress Dave Musgrove for one of our life lessons in history. You can find that in the link in the episode description as part of my beyond the Podcast picks. And you can also find there a link to sign up for the substack itself. Jess, we've been building up all the way to Volcano Day. This brings us to something that when we were chatting before, kind of we end up describing as the pomegranate problem. Yes, we know there's a volcano that erupts in AD 79. It's kind of like the opposite of Seneca and the earthquake, where you know the day and not quite sure the year. That's debated here. We know the year, but we don't know the date. What's going on here?

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Oh, it's this big debate that's still going on. It's quite heated in scholarly worlds. I tell you this.

[Kev Lotchen]

It's a scandal.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yeah, yeah, it's a scandal. So the traditional date that we've all been told is the 24th of August, AD 79. I don't think that it was then, and there's a lot of people that don't think it was then and for very good reason. We get this from Pliny the Younger's letters to Tacitus, the historian who asks Pliny to talk about his firsthand account of seeing this eruption.

[Kev Lotchen]

Pliny is the Younger. Pliny Younger. He is our major eyewitness to the eruption. He's the main one we go to.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yeah, he's the only eyewitness that we know of to date. So his accounts are very, very detailed because he's trying to tell Tacitus what happened and how people reacted to it, mainly. So he's watching from across the bay in Mizzenham. But his letters say it happened on the 24th of August, supposedly. But this has been questioned since the 17th century. The reason for this is because these letters from Pliny aren't the original letters. They've been transcribed many, many times by monks who were exhausted, by the way. So they would sit there and do this for hours and hours and hours and hours, to the point where I found a manuscript once that said in the margins, they would sometimes write notes like little jokes. And one of them said, now I've written the whole thing, for Christ's sake, give me a drink. Because they were just like, I can't do this anymore. You get an idea of the fact that mistakes can happen. You know, they're so complicated. Roman dates, such a hard thing to get your head around. So there are different dates that come out of these manuscripts. So 24th of August is one of them. I think that one's existed. The earliest manuscript is the 9th century of Pliny's letter. So that's a long time after the event. And Pliny wrote these letters about 20 years after the event, so he could have forgotten as well. So we've got another manuscript that says the 1st of November and another one that says the 24th of October. 24th of October is the one that I think is probably most likely.

[Kev Lotchen]

So how do we get to the point where we can choose which one is the most believable.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yes, there's many things here. So we've got the pomegranate problem. So I'm going to tell you about the pomegranates, because there are many, many, many pomegranates that have been found carbonized in a Pontus. So I mentioned the fancy villa at Plantis. There's also a workshop, top villa next door. I've actually excavated there, saw the pomegranates, so many pomegranates. And they would have been harvested from late September to November in the area. So, yes, there's climate change and things like that, but by all accounts, it looks like it was pretty similar to it, what it is today. So that's already taken us after it. We've got figs, chestnuts, walnuts and grapes. Grapes are the main one, actually. So it's like a great problem too, because we have the wine harvest festival, which is typically on the 19th of August. That gives us five days to harvest grapes, press them, put them in the dahlia, which are big terracosta jars, and then seal them. This had already happened. So we've got sealed dahlia in the villas outside of Pompeii. So this had already happened. This is a quick turnaround.

[Kev Lotchen]

I mean, maybe that's why wine gives you a headache.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Oh, yeah, this is true, actually. Yeah, yeah, it's true. Just juice.

[Kev Lotchen]

It's just juice.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yeah. So, yeah, so we have the fresh must, which was still in there. Oh, and olives as well. So, yeah, I'm an archaeobotanist, so I specialize in the archaeology of plants. And when I started looking into all of this, I thought, why on earth is this date 24th of August? It just doesn't make sense. But, yeah, this has been questioned for a while. We also have clothing and furniture, so we've got heating equipment that was already out. If you've ever been to Italy in August, you are not getting your heating systems out.

[Kev Lotchen]

I actually have and I melted.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yeah. Oh, it's. It's unbearable, isn't it? Whereas October, you know, it's chilly in the evening, it's warm in the day, so that makes sense. That could be about right. They're also wearing thick clothes. I'm not so convinced about the thick clothes because it was raining with ash, so they're going to want to cover themselves up and also they're escaping, so they're going to put stuff on to take it away. So that one I'm not so. But there's also graffiti that was found in 2018 in Region 5. So they're obviously doing more excavations since 2018. And it says this, this charcoal graffiti says the 16th day before the calendars of November. He indulged in food in an immoderate way. Now, the 16th day before the calendar of November equates to the 17th of October. It's written in charcoal, which obviously doesn't last very well. Now, some people have argued, oh, this could have been from the previous year. I don't personally think, having studied the architecture of Pompeii, that they would have left this room unused. It seems unlikely to me, because it was undergoing renovations, this room. So I don't think they would have just left it undergoing renovations for over a year. It just doesn't seem likely to me. So I think that's probably another good one. I'm coming to my best one. But there's. There's another one. Winds. Wind, yeah, wind, yes. There's this guy who is an expert in this and he says, no, this can't be possible because the southward orientated. This is so specific dispersal of the fallout. It's incompatible with autumn. Winter winds, they switch in the area depending on what time of year it is.

[Kev Lotchen]

Okay.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

And if it had been another time of year, Pompeii wouldn't have been as covered as it was. It would have been going north, the wind, and instead it went southeast.

[Kev Lotchen]

I've never heard that one. That's incredibly niche, isn't it?

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Niche. So we've got a lot here. But the best one I'm going to, the best one is a coin. In the 1970s, there was a hoard found in the House of the Golden Bracelet, a very beautiful, wealthy house that overlooked the sea. There's two coins in there that give us a little clue. So it says IMP15, and it has the face of the Emperor Titus, who was the emperor at the time. Now, this coin was minted to celebrate his 15th acclamation, which is something that gives legitimacy to the emperor and his family. So it's quite a big deal for them, and they would often celebrate this with the minting of a coin. Now, the interesting thing is that we know from other inscriptions elsewhere that the Emperor Titus had already received his 14th acclamation on the 7th or 8th September of that year. So this means that his 15th one hadn't happened in August. It didn't even, you know, it must have happened after September. It was the 7th of September, so it must have happened in September. So this tells Us again that it cannot have been in August.

[Kev Lotchen]

So what we're saying is maybe Pliny could have been an unreliable narrator. Potentially we're looking at autumn as a date. This is a really good opportunity. We mentioned that charcoal graffiti. We mentioned other graffiti throughout this conversation. Graffiti seems to be everyone with Pompeii. Jess, I asked you, would you be willing to nominate a piece of Pompeii graffiti every week? You said yes. I wonder if I could ask you, what is the graffiti you've chosen for us?

[Dr. Jess Venner]

So the graffiti I've chosen is a really lovely piece of graffiti. It's quite large. As in, like. The inscription is quite large. It's written by an ordinary person. It says, successus the weaver loves the barmaid of the inn called Iris, who doesn't care for him, but he asks and she feels sorry for him. A rival wrote this farewell. And then somebody replies in a different script. They say, you're jealous. Don't try to muscle in on someone who's better looking and is a wicked and charming man. And then the original person writes back and says, I have written and spoken. You love Iris, who doesn't care for you. Severus to Successors. And that was.

[Kev Lotchen]

That's hilarious. I thought it was really wholesome in the first line and it completely shifted.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yeah, massively. I know it's a bit of a twist. I love the fact that this is like a comment board, like on Instagram, where everyone's just arguing.

[Kev Lotchen]

That's incredible.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

It would have taken ages to scratch this in as well.

[Kev Lotchen]

How long would you think it would have taken you to scratch that?

[Dr. Jess Venner]

You would have to have, like a really sharp, like, stylus or something. So to scratch that into a wall, I don't think it would be quick. Quick job. They're really going for each other as well. Like, Severus and Successus are not friends.

[Kev Lotchen]

Hearing it, it sounds really humanizing. It adds that kind of layer onto Pompeii that maybe I certainly don't get from, like, hearing about otter disaster.

[Dr. Jess Venner]

Yes, exactly. I think we all too often forget that there's real people. They're real people with real feelings and emotions and worries and anxieties that we have, you know, illnesses and celebrations. And I think this one really tells us that they have jealousy as well, mainly. But, you know, they loved and they had relationships and they had rivalries and they were really interesting. And these, you know, Severus and Successors would have been forgotten had they not written on this wall. And Iris actually. And a barmaid as well. I just think it's so real it could be now. Somebody could have written this now. And it's just so sassy as well.

[Kev Lotchen]

Farewell peak, isn't it? It's so good. We're gonna carry that kind of humanizing tone, I hope, into our next episode, which is the apocalyptic 24 hours. So thank you, Jess, and we'll talk about that very shortly. If you enjoyed today's episode, you can go over to the History Extra app to go beyond the podcast, where I've created some related reading around Pompeii, Vesuvius and the wider Roman Empire. Grab a link to that in the episode description below.

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