History Extra Podcast: "Crime Fiction History: Everything You Wanted to Know"

Host: Isabel King (Immediate Media)
Guest: Martin Edwards (Crime Writer and Historian)
Date: August 30, 2025

Episode Overview

In this special episode, host Isabel King interviews renowned crime writer and crime fiction historian Martin Edwards, exploring the origins, evolution, and cultural impact of crime fiction. Listeners’ questions prompt a lively and in-depth journey through the genre’s milestones, major figures, gender dynamics, and global variations, culminating with reading recommendations and insights into the enduring appeal of crime stories.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Crime Fiction

[02:22]

• Isabel King kicks off with the deceptively simple question: “How do you define crime fiction?”
• Martin Edwards:
  • Highlights the genre’s broadness and fluid boundaries.
  • “I like to look at it as involving stories where the central focus is on a crime and also on entertaining the reader.” (02:28)
  • Lists outliers (Dostoevsky’s Crime and Punishment, Kafka’s The Trial) as straddling the borders of the genre.
  • Emphasizes entertainment and crime focus as the two anchors.

2. Subgenres of Crime Fiction

[03:23]

• Describes the “classic detective story” and its variants (private detective vs. official police).
• Other variations include:
  • Police procedural (noted for its American renaissance in the 50s/60s and recent resurgence)
  • Romantic suspense
  • Adventure stories involving crime
  • Psychological suspense and thrillers
  • Locked Room and Closed Circle mysteries
• Martin: “What matters at the end of the day is the story.” (04:15)

3. Origins: What Was the First Crime Novel?

[04:39]

• Martin: Points to Caleb Williams (1794, William Godwin) as the first recognisable crime novel.
  • Godwin wrote “by beginning at the end” – a plotting method still beloved by modern crime writers.
  • “The book today is… quite a dry read… but it’s interesting and it’s a landmark.” (05:24)
• Distinction drawn between “crime novel” and “detective story.”

4. Edgar Allan Poe’s Role

[06:05]

• Listener question: Did Poe create the genre?
• Martin:
  • Poe created the archetype of the “great detective” with Dupin in "The Murders in the Rue Morgue" (1841).
  • “Dupin’s brilliance… is reinforced by the fact that the story is narrated by an unnamed friend of his who admires Dupin. Dupin’s a cold reasoning machine in many ways.” (07:01)
  • Poe’s story inaugurates the detective story proper; Caleb Williams is not a detective story but a crime novel.

5. Fictional Police Detectives: Dickens & Wilkie Collins

[08:08]

• Inspector Bucket in Bleak House (Dickens) as the first significant fictional police detective.
• Followed by Sergeant Cuff in The Moonstone (Wilkie Collins), noted for realism and quirks (e.g., love of roses).
• Establishes the tradition of detectives with eccentric traits.

6. The Purpose and Tone of Early Crime Fiction

[09:56]

• Early authors didn’t see crime fiction as escapist or as a genre offering moral reassurance—those interpretations emerged later.
• W.H. Auden’s 1940s essay “The Guilty Vicarage” connects detective stories' restoring-order arc with Christian faith and notions of moral repair.
• “The idea of the detective restoring order to a disrupted society has proved enduringly popular…” (11:18)

7. Impact of Global Events: The World Wars

[12:16]

• Major social upheavals changed both the form and tone of crime fiction:
  • Post-WWI: Shift from short stories to novels; novels structured like games; rise of fair-play detection mirroring crosswords and puzzles.
  • Post-WWII: Greater focus on psychological complexity and the criminal mind, moving away from just-the-puzzle stories.
• “People wanted to have fun… after the war and after the pandemic… much like after our own recent COVID pandemic.” (14:28)
• Younger writers and critics pushed toward new themes and formats.

8. The Detection Club: Origins and Influence

[16:51]

• Started by Anthony Berkeley in 1928 as social gatherings for crime writers, leading to a formal club in 1930.

• Early members included Dorothy L. Sayers and Agatha Christie.

• Aimed for quality and fair play, purposely distinct from the “churned out” thrillers.

• Collaborative works such as BBC’s “Behind the Screen” and “The Scoop.”

• Martin Edwards, the 8th president; predecessors include Chesterton, Sayers, Christie.

  Notable Quote:
  “The Detection Club soon became a byword for a group of elite British… writers who were trying to upgrade the quality of detective fiction…” (20:36)

9. Sherlock Holmes: Arthur Conan Doyle’s Enduring Contribution

[23:57]

• Writes Holmes as a response to unsatisfying, “pulpy” plots with random solutions.
• Inspired by Joseph Bell’s method of deduction in medicine.
• Combines “reasoning machine” (from Poe’s Dupin) with the relatable human figure of Dr. Watson.
• The short story form is particularly well-suited to Holmes.
• Quote:
  “Sherlock Holmes… is really seen at his best in the short story… really from that moment on, he was on his way to becoming… the most successful fictional character there has ever been.” (27:44)

10. Conan Doyle’s Real-World Investigations

[28:14]

• Used Holmesian skills to investigate real cases and correct miscarriages of justice (notably the Idalji and Oscar Slater cases).
• Consulted in the real-life mystery of Agatha Christie’s disappearance.
• Quote:
  “Conan Doyle’s interest in crime and detection and achieving justice is certainly very evident… But it extended to real life in a very remarkable way.” (28:40)

11. Historical Forensics in Crime Fiction

[29:58]

• Forensic science present even in the early era; Conan Doyle influenced real-world forensics.
• The Crippen case (1910) and the use of expert witnesses like Bernard Spilsbury inspired Golden Age writers.
• Dorothy L. Sayers’ “In the Teeth of the Evidence” draws from forensic advances.

12. Women in Crime Fiction

[32:02]

• Early giants included Anna Katharine Green (The Leavenworth Case, USA) and Mary Roberts Rinehart (originator of “The Bat”).
• By the late '20s and '30s, British female authors dominated: Agatha Christie, Dorothy L. Sayers, Josephine Tey, Ngaio Marsh.
• Penguin’s huge early sales affirmed women’s market power.
• Quote:
  “These women were writing for many, many years, and not only that, making an absolutely indispensable contribution to the genre and its development.” (34:53)

13. Gender Dynamics: Was the Genre Male-Dominated?

[35:15]

• 19th-century reservations, but writing was a rare equal-opportunity profession for women.

• Literature offered women freedoms denied in law, policing, and other professions.

• Significant and ongoing female presence in the Detection Club.

  Quote:
  “Writing was something that they could do and they did it with gusto.” (37:07)

14. Crime Fiction Beyond Britain & America

[37:28]

• Non-Anglophone crime fiction thrived: Chekhov’s The Shooting Party (Russia), Stanislas-André Steeman (France/Belgium), Edogawa Rampo (Japan; his pen name a play on Poe).
• Cultures produced indigenous traditions and awards (e.g., Japanese Edogawa Rampo Prize).
• Under-recognition due to lack of translation, not lack of activity.

15. The Ultimate Crime Fiction Read

[40:06]

• Listener question: What is the “ultimate” crime novel?

• Martin’s Pick: And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie.

  • Commercially successful, structurally innovative.
  • Blends psychological suspense with classic whodunnit tension.
  • Explores deeper questions of justice and societal moral failure.

  Notable Quote:
  “If there is one book, one novel that people interested in crime fiction would be interested to read, that has to be the one.” (43:18)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On why boundaries blur:
  “Definitions are useful for categorising books to some extent, but I think it’s probably a mistake to get too hooked upon them…” —Martin Edwards [04:15]

• On the genre’s enduring comfort:
  “The idea of the detective restoring order to a disrupted society has proved enduringly popular, both with readers and with critics.” —Martin Edwards [11:18]

• On global perspectives:
  “The interest in reading and in writing crime and detective fiction was very much not something confined to the Anglophone world.” —Martin Edwards [39:34]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Definition of Crime Fiction: 02:22
• First Crime Novels & Poe: 04:39–08:08
• Early Detectives (Dickens, Collins): 08:08–09:56
• Purpose/Escapism in Early Fiction: 09:56–12:16
• World Wars' Influence: 12:16–16:51
• Detection Club: 16:51–22:37
• Sherlock Holmes’ Impact: 23:57–28:14
• Forensics & Real-World Influence: 29:58–32:02
• Women in the Genre: 32:02–37:28
• International Crime Fiction: 37:28–40:06
• The Ultimate Crime Novel: 40:06–43:27

Recommended Reading

• Must-read Crime Novel:
  • And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie (chosen for its ingenuity, psychological suspense, and deeper themes of justice).

Concluding Thoughts

Martin Edwards expertly weaves literary history with cultural context, demonstrating how crime fiction has reflected—and sometimes shaped—societal shifts. The genre’s elasticity, appeal across genders and cultures, and continual reinvention mark it as both popular entertainment and a mirror for anxieties, ethics, and human curiosity.

For further exploration, check out Martin Edwards’s nonfiction book The Life of Crime: Detecting the History of Mysteries and Their Creators and his forthcoming novel Miss Winter in the Library With a Knife.