Empress Matilda: life of the week

Summary

History Extra Podcast – "Empress Matilda: Life of the Week"

Date: December 2, 2025
Guest: Dr. Catherine Hanley
Host: Emily Briffitts (implied, based on closing)

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Episode Overview

This episode of the History Extra podcast shines a spotlight on Empress Matilda, a pivotal but often misunderstood figure in 12th-century English history. The conversation with medieval historian Dr. Catherine Hanley explores Matilda's extraordinary life, from her auspicious imperial upbringing and tumultuous marriages to her central role in the civil war known as the Anarchy, and ultimately her legacy as the forebear of England's Plantagenet dynasty. The episode aims to reconsider Matilda's reputation and historical significance through the lens of recent scholarship.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Matilda Matters

• [03:17] Dr. Catherine Hanley:
  • Daughter of King Henry I; granddaughter of William the Conqueror.
  • Became the first woman in English history to be named heir to the throne.
  • "She should have been England's first queen regnant. But as we will find out, things didn't quite work out that way."

2. Early Life and Political Context

• [04:15–05:37]
  • Born into a precarious political situation; Henry I's throne was not secure.
  • Used as a pawn for diplomatic alliances.
  • Emphasized the political imperative of marrying off royal daughters for power and peace.

3. Marriage to Emperor Henry V

• [05:48–08:40]
  • Matilda became betrothed and sent to the Holy Roman Empire at just 8 years old.
  • Given an intensive education, including languages, politics, and religion.
  • Married at nearly 12, then crowned and left to rule Italy independently at 16, demonstrating her capability.
  • Quote: "She was crowned...and left to rule Italy on his behalf when she was 16." – Dr. Hanley [09:45]

4. The White Ship Disaster and Succession Crisis

• [10:28–11:54]
  • Death of her only legitimate brother, William, in 1120.
  • Left Henry I without a male heir, opening the door for Matilda’s unprecedented designation as heir.

5. Widowhood and Return to England

• [11:58–13:46]
  • Widowed at 23 with no children.
  • Henry I recalls her to England, names her heir, and plans for a strategic second marriage.

6. Marriage to Geoffrey of Anjou and Dynastic Tensions

• [15:05–18:29]
  • Matilda’s resistance: Geoffrey was just 13 to her 25 and "the son of a count."
  • Their early relationship was rocky, marked by separation and personal distaste.
  • Eventually had two sons—securing her dynastic position.

7. The Seizure of the Throne by Stephen

• [20:19–23:30]
  • On Henry I’s death in 1135, oaths to support Matilda’s claim evaporated.
  • Stephen of Blois, a rival claimant and Matilda's cousin, moved swiftly to secure the crown.
  • Quote: "Coronation at this stage is so important, it doesn't matter who he was before. Once he's got the crown on his head, Stephen is the King of England." – Dr. Hanley [22:50]

8. The Anarchy: Civil War and the Struggle for Power

• [24:44–29:35]
  • Matilda’s main support came from her half-brother Robert of Gloucester.
  • In 1139 she landed in England, based herself in Bristol, and for years engaged in a stalemated civil war.
  • Key moment: Capturing Stephen at the Battle of Lincoln (1141), almost becoming queen.
  • Reversals: Londoners chase Matilda out before her coronation; Queen Matilda (Stephen's wife) leads an army against her.
  • Memorable Quote: “She was actually chased out of Westminster and London before she could be crowned...by a mob and an army, which, interestingly, was being led by Queen Matilda.” – Dr. Hanley [27:10]

9. Gender, Authority, and Historical Perceptions

• [37:16–41:02]
  • Matilda’s leadership style mirrored the authority of her father and imperial husband but was condemned as “arrogant” because she was a woman.
  • Chroniclers’ gendered criticisms:
    • Quote:
      • "Matilda, at once put on an extremely arrogant demeanor instead of the modest gait and bearing proper to the gentle sex, began to walk and speak and do all things more stiffly and haughtily than she had been wont." – Dr. Hanley quoting Deeds of Stephen [39:40]
    • If Matilda had been a man with her credentials, “do you think any of this would have happened?” [41:02]

10. Resolution and Legacy: Winning by Losing

• [33:50–37:16]
  • The Treaty of Winchester (1153): Stephen retains kingship but recognizes Matilda's son, Henry, as heir.
  • Stephen adopts Henry as his own son for the sake of political compromise.
    • “It’s a massive slap in the face for Matilda. It really is.” – Dr. Hanley [34:40]
  • Matilda never became queen, but her son Henry II established the Plantagenet dynasty—a longer-term victory.
  • Post-civil war: Matilda continued as a powerful regent in Normandy for her son.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Matilda’s Capability:
  • "I really don't think he [Emperor Henry] would have done that if he didn't think that she was intellectually, you know, and confidently capable of doing that." – Dr. Hanley [09:45]
• On Gender and Leadership:
  • "What was acceptable coming from King Henry and Emperor Henry was not acceptable coming from Matilda, because she was a woman." – Dr. Hanley [38:11]
• Chronicler’s Critique:
  • "She did so not with unassuming gentleness, but with a voice of authority. And the author means this as a criticism." – Dr. Hanley [40:14]
• Final Reflection:
  • "Yeah, she lost the battle, but she won the war. She never sat on the throne...but her son did." – Dr. Hanley [35:12]

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Timeline of Key Segments (Timestamps MM:SS)

• 03:17 — 60-second Matilda overview
• 04:15 — Discussion of Matilda's birth and early role
• 05:48 — Marriage to Emperor Henry V
• 07:27 — Life and education in imperial court
• 08:52 — Impact of upbringing on later life
• 10:28 — White Ship Disaster and its legacy
• 11:58 — Widowed and return to English succession politics
• 13:55 — Oaths to support Matilda and resistance to female succession
• 15:05 — Reluctance and politics behind marriage to Geoffrey
• 20:19 — How Stephen took the throne
• 23:31 — Matilda’s response and isolation
• 24:44 — Start of the Anarchy and major phases
• 27:10 — Londoners chase Matilda out before coronation
• 29:35 — Stalemate and rise of Matilda's son, Henry
• 33:50 — Treaty of Winchester and compromise
• 35:12 — Matilda’s ultimate legacy
• 37:28 — How Matilda was seen by her contemporaries
• 39:40 — Gendered attacks in chronicles
• 41:02 — Summing up the gendered nature of her defeat

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Closing Thoughts

The episode compellingly re-examines Matilda’s life and the chronicled biases that shaped her reputation. Dr. Hanley emphasizes that Matilda’s “failure” was less about personal shortcomings and far more about entrenched gender norms; her life remains a lens through which to explore medieval power, succession crises, and the limits of female authority.

For listeners seeking more:

• Listen to History Extra’s separate episode on "The Anarchy: Everything You Wanted to Know" for a deep dive into the civil war’s political and social ramifications.
• Explore Dr. Hanley’s previous episode on Joanna Plantagenet for another perspective on Angevin women.

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Summary prepared for those who haven’t listened: This guide covers all major topics and memorable insights, with rich detail and direct speaker attribution, offering a clear pathway through Matilda’s dramatic, consequential life story.

Transcript

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[Dr. Catherine Hanley]

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[Podcast Host]

Hello and welcome to Life of the.

[Podcast Co-Host or Narrator]

Week, where leading historians delve into the.

[Podcast Host]

Lives of some of history's most intriguing and significant figures. From ancient Egyptian pharaohs and medieval warriors to daring 20th century spies.

[Podcast Co-Host or Narrator]

In the tumultuous aftermath of Henry I's death in the 12th century, England was thrown into one of the most chaotic civil wars in its history. The anarchy. At the heart of the struggle stood Empress Matilda, daughter of a king, widow of an emperor, mother of a future dynasty, and the woman who came closer than any before her to ruling medieval England in her own right. Yet bold and authoritative Matilda has historically been seen in a less than favourable light. Until recent reassessments. I spoke to historian and author Dr. Catherine Hanley to explore Matilda's extraordinary life and legacy. From her imperial upbringing in the Holy Roman Empire to her daring campaign against King Stephen and her life after the conflict.

[Podcast Host]

We are going to be charting the.

[Podcast Co-Host or Narrator]

Life of Empress Matilda today.

[Podcast Host]

So let's introduce her. Could you give us a 60 second sales pitch? Why should we know about her? What are the moments we need to know about?

[Dr. Catherine Hanley]

Matilda was born in 1102. She was the daughter of King Henry I of England, who was himself the youngest son of William the Conqueror. At the beginning of her life, she was expected to pursue the normal path for the daughter of a king. She was going to get married, she was going to be a consort somewhere else. But the later death of her only legitimate brother left her as Henry I's only legitimate child and he actually named her as his heir to the English throne. This was the first time in history that a woman had ever been named heir to the English throne, and it means that she should have been England's first queen regnant. But as we will find out, things didn't quite work out that way.

[Podcast Host]

They did not. And this is the story we're going to be charting exactly that. So let's start right at the beginning. As the daughter of Henry I, what can you tell us about the world that she was born into and her very early life?

[Dr. Catherine Hanley]

Politically, it's quite an iffy sort of time. Henry the first was, as I said, the son of William the Conqueror, but he was William's youngest son and he'd come to the throne by usurping the rights of his eldest brother, Robert Kurthose. So Henry was not terribly secure on his throne at the time that Matilda was born. He'd only been king about two years. His brother was still alive and that brother had a son as well. And people were saying, well, hang on, you know, what's going on here? So what Henry really, really needed was to solidify his place on the throne. And the best way to do that was to form some really prestigious international alliances. And in turn, the best way to do that is to have a daughter or daughters whom you can marry off to a foreign ruler in order to secure those alliances. So Matilda would have been well aware of this from her very, very earliest days. It would have been kind of drum, as she was having her very early education with her mother at the court, that her role in life was to be the diplomatic pawn of her father and that she could expect to be sent away for marriage, although even she might have been taken aback by just quite how early in her life that happened.

[Podcast Host]

It is really surprisingly early. And this marriage was to the Holy Roman Emperor, Henry Van what do we know about this marriage and how did this shape her identity at this time?

[Dr. Catherine Hanley]

First off, get used to the fact that quite a lot of people in this story are called Henry. I will refer to King Henry and Emperor Henry, so hopefully we won't get mixed up. Emperor Henry was the emperor, obviously. The empire at this stage is basically what is now Germany and the northern half of Italy all as one big realm. Now, he was having problems of his own because he was engaged in a very long standing conflict with the Pope called the investiture controversy. Now, Henry controlled enormous amounts of land, obviously, but he was quite short of cash because he needed cash to pursue his conflict with the Pope. So he wrote to King Henry suggesting a marriage alliance with King Henry's daughter. And this suited King Henry down to the ground, because who in Europe is more prestigious than the emperor? I mean, nobody. And also both of them had a mutual antagonist in Louis VI of France, who is geographically situated the middle. So the idea of an alliance just, you know, suited everybody. King Henry would get his international alliance, Emperor Henry would get a big pile of cash and hopefully a wife who would bear him sons in due course. Nobody bothered to ask Matilda what she thought of all this, obviously, and of course, she was actually only 7 years old at this point, but it was all agreed between the two men. And then in February 1110, when Matilda was two weeks past her eighth birthday, she was put on a ship and shipped across the channel to the Empire.

[Podcast Host]

That seems so astonishingly young. What was life like for Matilda in the imperial courts?

[Dr. Catherine Hanley]

I mean, okay, there are pluses and minuses. Quite clearly. She's growing up in an atmosphere where she's never gonna have to worry about where her next meals come from or how she's gonna keep a roof over her head or, you know, that kind of thing. But she. It was very much a learning curve because the Emperor's court was very stiff, very formal. Everything had to be done in the right way, which contrasted with King Henry's Anglo Norman court, which was quite bluff and informal, I should say. She wasn't actually married to the Emperor straight away. So Emperor Henry gave her a household of her own, which was for her education. So she spent the next four years getting a really intensive education in the German language, in the Latin language, in politics, in international relations, relations, in religion. He was quite clear that he wanted a wife who was going to be his helpmeet and consort going forward. She's not just like a decorative object who's going to be the mother of his sons. And then when she'd reached the grand old age of nearly 12, they were actually married.

[Podcast Host]

Blimey. What impact do you think that Matilda's, I guess, upbringing in this court and her education there had on her later ambitions and political career?

[Dr. Catherine Hanley]

First of all, it did give her a more formal air, if you like, in how she behaved, in how she comported herself, because that was the way she'd been brought up. You imagine she's only 8 years old when she's put in this position. These are all of her formative years. And eventually, when she went back to England in Normandy, a lot of people didn't like that, and they thought she was very haughty. But, I mean, if you've been brought up to be the empress, what else are you going to be? But, yeah, it did. I mean, it certainly did give her a sense of her own importance in the grand scheme of things. She's the wife of the Emperor. She's the most important woman in Western Europe. And, you know, she went to Rome and she was crowned, and, you know, she can call herself empress for the rest of her life, but it's also clear that she was very, very capable because she and Emperor Henry were in Italy and she was crowned. But then Henry went back to Germany, leaving Matilda to rule Italy on his behalf when she was 16. And even though she was his wife and this was her position, I really don't think he would have done that if he didn't think that she was intellectually, you know, and confidently capable of doing that. So it gives us a real insight into the fact that how intellectual, how clever, how capable she really was. And a main point here, which we will come back to later, is that her ruling Italy on Henry's behalf was seen as perfectly acceptable. And this is because she was acting on behalf of her husband. She was representing his authority.

[Podcast Host]

But meanwhile, back in England, a tragedy occurred. The White Ship Disaster. How impactful was this on the fate of England?

[Dr. Catherine Hanley]

Okay, it had a huge impact. Henry. I only had two legitimate children, Matilda and her younger brother, William, known as William Adeline, because there are also a lot of people in this story called William. And he obviously, as the king's eldest and only legitimate son, was brought up as the heir to the throne. He's going to be the king next. You know, everything's fine. And then in November 1120, he was drowned in an accident. The White Ship Disaster. A ship went down carrying the heir to the throne and the heirs to lots of other titles in England, leaving King Henry with no legitimate son. And this is a Big, big deal if you're a medieval king, especially if you're a medieval king whose own position is slightly dodgy. But actually, to start with, it didn't impact too much on Matilda personally, because her position as wife of the emperor kind of supersedes her position as the daughter of the king. So she's still expected to be the empress and, you know, the mother of the emperor after that and to live her life over there in Germany and Italy. But although, you know, she was heading for her 20s by this stage and had been married for some time, she and Emperor Henry didn't have any children.

[Podcast Host]

But then Matilda was widowed. What were her options from that point?

[Dr. Catherine Hanley]

Okay, yes, Emperor Henry died in 1125, so this leaves Matilda as a widow, but she's a widow with no children. So this means she doesn't really have a place in the new court. You know, the difference between being the mother of the next monarch and being the widow, the childless widow of somebody who's just died is very great. So she could have, you know, retired to her dower lands and lived quietly or even, you know, entered a convent or something, but she's still only 23 at this point, and she's got a whole life to live and she has ambitions. And of course, all of this time, King Henry has been receiving reports from the empire about how well his daughter is doing, because obviously the idea of these alliances is that they make an alliance. You know, there wouldn't be much point if the two parties didn't talk to each other. So Henry is very, very aware, although he hasn't seen her since she was 8 years old, he's very aware that he's got this very capable, politically experienced international child. And he is also determined, absolutely determined, that when he dies, the throne is not going to go to his brother or this brother's son. So in the absence of a legitimate son of his own, and he has been trying to have another one, he was a widower, but he got married again almost straight away after the White Ship disaster. And he's been married to a girl who's only the same age as Matilda for five years, dragging her around everywhere. There he goes, but they haven't had any children. So he brings Matilda back and declares that she is going to be the heir to the throne. I mean, cat pigeons doesn't even come into it.

[Podcast Host]

How unusual was this in the context of 12th century succession politics? And how was it received by the Anglo Norman nobility in England?

[Dr. Catherine Hanley]

It was completely unprecedented. There were examples elsewhere in Europe, one or Two of which were relatively recent where a daughter had succeeded, but basically the husband that she'd married had become kind of k in right of his wife. And this is not really what was intended in England. And yeah, people just didn't know what to make of it. I mean, the main point is that at the time they all accepted it because you didn't argue with Henry I, and certainly not to his face, not if you wanted to keep all of your limbs anyway. So the nobles and barons and the clergy of England swore individually, they individually swore a public oath that when he was dead, they would support her claim to the throne. Now, this is great for Matilda, you know, she's going to be the Queen of England. It's all going to be great. But of course she is a widow with no children and there is no point having a widow with no children on the throne because all that happens is we're going to have the same situation again in a few years time. So Henry decides that she's got to get married again.

[Podcast Host]

And how did Matilda feel about being married off again?

[Dr. Catherine Hanley]

Well, I think she's very politically astute person. She realized she was going to, you know, to get married. I think her problem was the identity of the individual that Henry had lined up.

[Podcast Host]

So this is Geoffrey of Anjou. What do we know about him? Was their marriage prosperous?

[Dr. Catherine Hanley]

Right, let's start there. Matilda has some objections to this marriage and the two main ones are, firstly, status. She's been the empress of the empire and she's now expected to marry the son of a count. Right. It's not even royal or anything. And the other thing is, at the time this marriage was arranged, she was 25 and Geoffrey was 13. It's weird any way you look at it, but particularly given the dynamics of a medieval marriage where a woman is subject in all ways to the authority of her husband, she does not want to be subject to the authority of a 13 year old boy who is the son of a count. And I can see her point. You know, I think other people could see a point, but it was strategically advantageous because Henry, King Henry, rules England and Normandy. And if Matilda inherits that, she is also going to rule England and Normandy. That's quite a big geographical space and a king or queen can't be in all of it at once. So an alliance with Anjou, which borders Normandy on the other side from England, is a really good idea. So in the light of her own ambitions, I think she realised basically that if she didn't go through with this marriage she was going to get dropped as Henry's heir. You know, he might find he hadn't. He didn't have any other legitimate children, but he had illegitimate sons, he had nephews. So she basically had to sort of grit her teeth and go through with it. And to say that it didn't go well to start with is probably a bit of an understatement. They didn't get on at all. Within a year, they had separated and they were living separately. Geoffrey, we know, was obviously amusing himself with mistresses because he had an illegitimate son that was born in 1130. By 1131, King Henry had had enough. He literally ordered her to go back to him. And somehow they managed to put up with each other long enough to have two sons in very, very quick succession, one in March 1133 and the other one in May 1134. So her position is now secure. You know, she's kind of bitten the bullet, but what she's got out of it is a position as heir to the throne. She's paid to. All the rumors about her being barren. She's got sons, she's got a dynasty. So she can look forward to the future whenever her father dies, which she must do eventually because he's in his mid-60s by this stage, which actually medieval king is quite elderly. They tended to wear themselves out quite soon. And then the inevitable happened. And on the 1st of December, 1135, Henry I died. And Matilda's path seemed to be opening up.

[Podcast Host]

Seemed the important word here.

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[Podcast Host]

What happened after Henry's death in 1135?

[Dr. Catherine Hanley]

So all of these nobles and barons who'd sworn this oath when Henry, I was actually there, glaring at them at the time, decided that keeping their word wasn't quite so important once he was dead. They also had massive reservations about the idea of a female monarch. And there was also great uncertainty over what the role of Geoffrey of Anjou would be. If Matilda is the queen, is Geoffrey of Anjou the king? Because the Normans don't really like the Angevins and they certainly don't want one as King of England. I mean, you know, what's going on? And part of the problem is that Henry, although naming Matilda as his heir, never during his lifetime, made it clear what Geoffrey's role would be. So there's this mass uncertainty. And there are several other candidates who seemed plausible. The first one is a chap called Robert, thank God, not called Henry or William. Robert, who was the eldest of King Henry's illegitimate sons, who was known to be a very faithful retainer of his father. And people going, well, you know, it's not that long since a man who was illegitimate became the King of England. You know, Robert himself turned this down. He was not really leadership material. He's a very good lieutenant and follower, but he wasn't a great leader. He was too affable, you know. And also, the Church had kind of really tightened up its rules on marriage and illegitimacy, so it would have been really difficult. And the other candidates were King Henry, although he was very determined that his elder brother's son wasn't going to be on the throne, but his brother and that son are both dead by now, which makes that bit simpler. Did have a sister who had several sons. And initially the barons of Normandy offered Theobald of Blois, the eldest active nephew in that family, to be the Duke of Normandy. But while he was still thinking about it, his younger brother Stephen, took the Initiative raced across the Channel to Winchester, which is where the royal treasury was, because you need a load of money, and where his youngest brother happened to be, the bishop, secured the treasury, rushed to London, where he had very, very good trade links, because he's the Count of Boulogne and that relies a lot on trade with London, and literally had himself crowned king. And he'd done this so quickly because he was on the spot in Normandy when Henry I died, Whereas Matilda was 200 miles away in Anjou. And if you work it out with how far it was and how far you could ride in a day and all the rest of it, it's actually possible that he'd done all this and had himself crowned king before Matilda even knew that her father was dead. And the thing is, coronation at this stage is so important, it doesn't matter who he was before. Once he's got the crown on his head, Stephen is the King of England. And this didn't go down well with Matilda.

[Podcast Host]

How did she respond?

[Dr. Catherine Hanley]

Well, she wasn't impressed, but unfortunately, in the short term, there wasn't really a lot she could do about it. Firstly, and sort of with slightly unlucky timing, she was pregnant for a third time. And, of course, traveling was quite an arduous undertaking in the 12th century anyway, regardless if you're pregnant. And with the timing of it, we don't know exactly, but we can work it out that she was probably between about 8 and 12 weeks pregnant, which is a peak time for sickness. So it may well be that she wasn't feeling too great, which didn't help. But the main problem was a political one, in that despite all of the oaths that the barons and the lords of England had sworn to support her claim, not one of them in England stood up for her. The only person who stood up for her claim was David I, the King of Scotland, who was her maternal uncle. His support on its own wasn't enough to do anything, so she managed to move from Anjou just over the border into the south of Normandy. But that was it, really. She was stuck. And meanwhile, Stephen is in England, having been crowned and receiving the support of all of the English barons. And it seemed like it was kind of case closed, really.

[Podcast Host]

And this leads us into the civil war that we know as the anarchy. Obviously, this is a subject that could be an entire podcast episode on its own, and we certainly have episode on it, so people can listen to that. But just for the sake of understanding Matilda's life in this episode, could you walk us through the major Phases, the.

[Dr. Catherine Hanley]

Pivotal moments to run through a few dates. Henry I had died in December 1135, and initially, as we say, Matilda couldn't do much about it. The key point came in the summer of 1138, when Matilda's half brother, Robert, the Earl of Gloucester, so Henry I's illegitimate son, defected from Stephen's cause to her own. Now, Robert was a very rich, very influential man who had extensive lands both in England and in Normandy. And this really made a difference because from where she was in the south of Normandy, it sort of opened up a path through friendly lands, if you like, so she could get to the north of Normandy and the coast, and it took about a year to assemble an army and all the rest of it. So Matilda sailed for England in September 1139 and she landed in England and she managed to make it to Robert's stronghold, obviously, with him being the Earl of Gloucester, most of his lands are in the west country, so she managed to make it to his castle of Bristol, which would be her headquarters for several years. Now, we'll sort of skip over a couple of years because there's an awful lot of back and forth sieges. The really pivotal year was 1141. Now, in February of this year, there was quite a large battle. Battle were quite unusual at this time, but there was a large engagement at Lincoln. And during that Stephen was captured by Matilda's forces and he was brought to her. Unfortunately, we have no eyewitness accounts of the personal meeting that they had. And my. I would have liked to have been there, but he was imprisoned and lots of his supporters thought, you know, that the game was up. They came over to her side. Even Stephen's brother Henry, the very influential Bishop of Winchester, changed sides and declared Matilda lady of the English. And she moved to London in June for her coronation. Hooray. But of course, didn't quite work out the way that she planned. Now, the reason, the principal reason for this is that, in short, people did not like the idea that she was claiming the throne in her own own right. Women, noble women, royal women, routinely expected to be capable and active and they could take action to rule lands and, you know, even fight in wars. But it was meant to be done within this sort of framework of male authority. They could act on behalf of their husbands if their husbands were away, they could act on behalf of their sons if their sons were underage. But the idea of a woman actually saying, no, this is my crown, I'm claiming it in my own right, my own authority, just kind of freaked everybody out. And some of the people who had supported Matilda when she was, you know, the leader of the opposition, effectively had supported her simply because they didn't like Stephen. And now that they were sort of actually faced with the idea that this woman was going to be in charge of them and a woman was going to be able to tell them what to do, they didn't like it. So Matilda was actually chased out of Westminster and London before she could be crowned. Literally, the night before the coronation was due to take place by a mob and an army, which, interestingly, was being led by Queen Matilda. And I'm sorry they have the same name, but there's not a lot I can do about that. Queen Matilda, Stephen's wife, now she's doing all the things that Empress Matilda is being criticized for. She's leading an army, for goodness sake. But because she's doing it on behalf of her imprisoned husband, this is fine. So Empress Matilda gets chased out, she never gets crowned. Later that year, she regroups and she ends up in Winchester, where the Queen's army pursues her. The Queen's army comes towards Winchester from one direction and she has to sort of exit it the other way. And in the fight that happens after this, Empress Matilda's brother, Robert of Gloucester, is captured. Now, this is a big deal because although Matilda is in charge of her own campaign, she can't lead her armies in the field and she needs Robert to be her military commander. So after this year of big ups and downs, the only thing that can happen happens at the end of 1141, which is that Matilda is forced to agree to a prisoner exchange, whereby Robert of Gloucester is freed to come back to her in exchange for Stephen being freed. And we're back at square one.

[Podcast Host]

And square lasts for a long time, doesn't it?

[Dr. Catherine Hanley]

Oh, yes, it does. So we won't go into this in too much detail, but, yeah, for the next few years, there is just this period of toing and froing, of sieges of castles going one way and the other way, and people deciding to change sides or not. But the main point is that neither of the parties has enough to completely overwhelm the other. There's also no possibility of compromise. You can't negotiate because the party's positions are one party says Stephen should be on the throne, the other one says Matilda should be on the throne. There's no way to share it, so they can't really negotiate either. But what happens is that while this time is going by Matilda's children, she's got three Sons, whom she has left in Normandy, are getting older, unsurprisingly. And by 1147, Matilda's eldest son, who you'll be unsurprised to know is called Henry, is 14. And, you know, this makes him much more of a serious prospect than he was when he was 2. He actually, at the age of 14, makes a slightly ill advised invasion attempt of his own in England, which is a bit of a disaster, but funnily enough, contemporaries really admired him for it because it was like, oh, here is this teenage boy being brave and audacious, which is something they would never have said about Matilda. So this actually gives Matilda a new sort of string to her bow, if you like. And this general admiration of Henry and the idea that he is Henry I grandson, whereas Stephen is only Henry I's nephew, his sister's son, gives this sort of new dynamic. And gradually Matilda, I think she was self aware enough to realise eventually that this wasn't going to happen for her and that the only thing she could do, the best thing to do, was to actually switch her support to claiming that her son should be the king, rather than that she, she should be the queen. So this is what she does. And then in the autumn of 1147, Robert of Gloucester died of natural causes. He was quite a lot older than Matilda and Matilda basically decided to get completely out of Henry's way. It must have been quite a difficult thing for her to do because she's been in England all of this time pushing this cause and fighting non stop, and then to realize that the best way to get an overall win is actually to go away because you're so unpopular that nobody likes you. It's a very difficult thing to do. But she could play the long game, you know. So in 1148, she went back to Normandy. Now, interestingly, other things have been happening in Normandy in this time, which is basically that her husband, Geoffrey of Anjou, whom she doesn't really like personally, has actually done something useful in that he had long held ambitions as the Count of Anjou, he had long held ambitions on Normandy of his own. And of course he's used the excuse to say, well, actually, my wife is the rightful ruler of Normandy and he's actually conquered Normandy. So Normandy is holding for Geoffrey, who claims that as soon as his son Henry is of age, he's going to cede it to him and so Matilda can go back to Normandy and she's actually the Duchess of Normandy and nobody's quite clear on whether she's the Duchess of Normandy. By her own right or merely because her husband is the Duke, but it doesn't matter. So she can keep that off Henry's to do list, effectively, while he's campaigning in England. And so he takes up the cause in England. And I won't talk about this too much, because this is Matilda's story, not Henry's. But he's young and energetic. Stephen is getting older and he's very tired. And the barons of England are tired of fighting, and the people of England are tired of the fighting, and they're tired of their fields being burnt and their houses being destroyed. And it gets to the point in 1153. So this has been going on quite a long time by now where Henry's army and Stephen's army are facing off against each other, and the barons quite literally refuse to fight. They tell Stephen and Henry to sit down and sort it out.

[Podcast Host]

And sort it out they do. 1153 sees the treaty of Winchester. What does this establish?

[Dr. Catherine Hanley]

It establishes that Stephen, Stephen will remain the King for the rest of his life, but he will be succeeded not by his own son, Eustace, but by Matilda's son, Henry. Now, this is like a massive fudge, because legally, they've got to work this out. It's like, well, hang on a minute, if Stephen is the true king, why should he not be succeeded by his own son? But if Henry is the true king, why shouldn't he be the king now? And why are we leaving Stephen on the throne? So they solved this in a way that probably felt clever to them, at, which was that Stephen adopted Henry as his son. Now, this worked for them because it was like, okay, this is why Stephen is the true king and he can stay on the throne, but he will be succeeded by Henry, his son and heir. It's a massive slap in the face for Matilda. It really is. After all these years that she's been fighting to find out that, you know, yay, my son's going to be the king. But, oh, it's because he's being depicted as Steven's son and not mine. I mean, seriously, I wouldn't have wanted to be around any breakable ob when she found that out.

[Podcast Host]

Can we say that this was a long term victory for her? Obviously, the situation feels a bit iffy around it.

[Dr. Catherine Hanley]

Yeah. I mean, the way I like to think of it is that, yeah, she lost the battle, but she won the war. She never sat on the throne, she never had that crown. That was her birthright. And that she would have been eminently suited to wear you know, with her experience, but her son did, and it was her descendants that would end up on the throne and not the descendants of Stephen. So she could sort of satisfy herself with that. And there's a sort of interesting addendum in that. She doesn't fade away after this. You know, Henry is the King of England, but he's got. He's only 21 at the point where he's crowned, because actually, after they made this arrangement, Stephen only lived for another year and he died of natural causes. There's nothing suspicious about it. But Henry was only 21 when he became the King of England, and he's got England, Normandy, Anjou, Maine, Touraine. He's also married to the Duchess of Aquitaine. By this stage, you know, that's a lot. And so Matilda is not only a very good and experienced advisor for him, but she rules Normandy on his behalf because Geoffrey of Anjou has died by now. And what's really interesting is that we kind of go full circle. You might remember that I mentioned earlier that when she ruled Italy on behalf of her husband, Emperor Henry, everything was fine and everyone was accepting of her authority because she was acting on behalf of her husband in England. When she wanted authority of her own, people didn't like it. But now that she's ruling Normandy on behalf of her son, everything's fine again. She continued to rule Normandy on Henry's behalf, dealing along the way with the kings of France, the emperor, various popes, until her death in September 1167. And the fact that this death was very peaceful is a sign of her success. You know, there aren't many unsuccessful claimants to the throne of England who can say they died peacefully in their beds at the age of 65.

[Podcast Host]

Matilda's gone really round from being popular, unpopular, to back to being popular again. What can you tell us about her leadership style and the way that you. This was seen by her contemporaries?

[Dr. Catherine Hanley]

So Matilda had learnt her leadership skills from two of the best in the business. King Henry I of England was renowned as an authoritative, effective leader, and so was Matilda's first husband, Emperor Henry. But they were effective because they were so authoritarian, people did not argue with them. And so Matilda, throughout her formative years, had seen that this was the way to be an effective leader. So when she was in charge, you know, of her own campaign and everything else she was doing, she attempted to be the same, to be authoritative and firm. But what was acceptable coming from King Henry and Emperor Henry was not acceptable coming from Matilda, because she was a woman and we had have Ample contemporary evidence that that is the reason why she was treated differently.

[Podcast Host]

Can you tell us more about how she was viewed by those around her at the time?

[Dr. Catherine Hanley]

Yes. Fortunately, this is a period where we have a lot of chronicles, narrative material, and quite a lot of it was actually being written at the time, rather than, you know, people looking back from a hundred years afterwards. And it's really interesting because. Because some of the chronicles are pro Matilda and some of them are pro Stephen. It's just like, you know, reading the different accounts you might get of a war or something today. But even the pro Matilda ones, which are very keen on her right to the throne and her right specifically to pass that claim through to her son, aren't massively enthusiastic about her. Her personally. But it's the pro Stephen ones as particularly. There's one, it's got a Latin title, but it translates in English as the Deeds of Stephen, which tells you who the hero of the text is, really goes to town on the gendered criticism. So, for example, at the point where Matilda is looking to be crowned when Stephen is in prison, you know, the author says that Matilda, quote, at once put on an extremely arrogant demeanor instead of the modest gait and bearing proper to the gentle sex, began to walk and speak and do all things more stiffly and haughtily than she had been wont. She actually made herself queen of all England and gloried in being so called. End quote. And then there's a second one which says that when she spoke to the Londoners, when she wanted to be crowned, she did so not with unassuming gentleness, but with a voice of authority. And the author means this as a criticism. Can you imagine anyone criticizing William the Conqueror for arranging matters as he saw fit? Can you imagine anyone criticizing Henry I for speaking with a voice of authority? Of course you can't, because they wouldn't have done it. And this is why it was all tied into the idea of not liking her, seeking power in her own right.

[Podcast Host]

So the traditional story is that Matilda had this opportunity to seize power and that she blew it down to her own haughtiness, her own arrogance. But if I'm right in thinking what you're saying, Cath, is actually. It's more about how she was perceived because of her gender.

[Dr. Catherine Hanley]

Yeah, exactly. There's no question at all that these issues were caused by the fact that she was. Was a woman. So this might sound contentious. I'm aware people might want to argue with me about it. That's fine. You know, it's all part of the discussion. But if anyone does want to argue that it was not Matilda's sex that caused all these problems, answer me this question. If Henry I had died leaving his throne to a 30 year old, highly intelligent, well educated, politically experienced son, do you think any of this would have happened?

[Podcast Co-Host or Narrator]

That was historian and author Catherine Hanley speaking to me. Emily Brifitts Catherine has been on the podcast before to discuss the life of another remarkable medieval figure, Joanna Plantagenets, who proves that Richard the Lionheart wasn't the only force to be reckoned with in the Angevin dynasty. So if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to check check out that one too. Or if you fancy finding out more about the Anarchy, do listen to our episode with Matt Lewis. Just search the Anarchy Everything you wanted to know. Wherever you listen to bring that up.

[Podcast Host]

Thanks for listening to today's Life of the Week. Be sure to join us again next time to learn about another fascinating figure from the.

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[Podcast Host]

Com.