Historian Thomas Rees Smith (3:05)

Good question. And yes, there's quite a lot of obscurity in the Father Christmas family tree. So if you go down one branch of the family tree, I suppose we could go back to 4th century Turkey and the figure of St Nicholas, who arguably is the figure who stands behind both Father Christmas and Santa Claus in terms of a founding figure, if you like. Because Saint Nicholas, of course becomes associated relatively early in European terms with the idea of visiting in the winter season accompanied with presents. And of course Saint Nicholas is still a major presence in countries like Holland particularly, and Germany. But his festival is. His saints day is obviously earlier In December, the 5th, the 6th is when St Nicholas celebrations take place. So if we're actually thinking about Father Christmas himself, we probably have to land somewhere in the 15th century. That's when we first get reference to a figure called Sir Christmas. And Sir Christmas is probably the first textual evidence we have of a figure who is a personification of the Christmas season. So he's associated with winter, with winter greenery. So often as Father Christmas develops, he'll be depicted wearing a garland of holly or mistletoe or some other winter greenery Christmas cheer. So often he's associated with the wassail bowl or other kind of convivial drinks and Christmas feasting, you know, feasting with family and friends. And yeah, 15th century is the first moment we can actually spot someone who looks like this. But it's not really until the 17th century that he really starts to become a figure who is immediately identifiable as the personification of Christmas and who starts to become called Old Christmas, Father Christmas, Old Father Christmas, some combination of these phrases. So actually, it's not really until the 17th century that Father Christmas really starts to take shape as a figure. And not unironically. That's because that's a period at which Christmas, as it's traditionally been celebrated, is under threat.

Interviewer Matt Elton (5:20)

We'll get into some of the specifics of the 17th century in a bit. Before we do, I'd like to stay with this idea of the Father Christmas family tree, because I really like this as a concept. What do we need to understand about the differences and the cultural shifts, I suppose, as we go from St Nicholas to Father Christmas?

Historian Thomas Rees Smith (5:39)

Well, I think probably to go from St. Nicholas to Father Christmas, you have to go through Santa Claus, because that's actually where the path leads us. Father Christmas probably develops as a figure relatively separately from St Nicholas, at least in his earliest incarnation. But it's clear you can tell from the name alone, right, that Santa Claus takes a lot from St. Nicholas, partly because he's the product of emigration to America in the 18th century. So Santa Claus as a figure starts to emerge somewhere in the late 18th century in America, as far as we can tell. And it seems likely that that's because he's an echo of folk traditions from Europe, again, surrounding St Nicholas in Holland and Germany. And immigrants to America take St. Nicholas with them, take the more secularized figure of Sinterklaas with them, and drawing on that figure, Santa Claus emerges. Now, the differences between Santa Claus and St Nicholas are tonal, if you like, and also significant as well. So certainly Santa Claus is not a bishop, right? There's no sense that he's a man of the church. So that's already a kind of fundamental shift. Santa Claus also appears on Christmas Eve, and that's really the moment where we have this association, new association between someone visiting your house on Christmas Eve to give you presents. And that figure is Santa Claus. And Santa Claus also has a touch of some other European figures who are associated with winter and gift bringing. Much kind of rougher, slightly more scary figures that also come from Germany. Figures like Belsnickel and Knecht Rupprecht, who sometimes accompany St. Nicholas, depending. You know, these things are not nailed down, right? They're very fluid and organic, and it kind of depends from village to village where these traditions develop. But sometimes they'll accompany St Nicholas, sometimes they'll visit houses on their own. And there. So, you know, we can imagine St Nicholas in his bishop's mitre and his bishop's robes. Figures like Belsnickel and Knechtruprecht are dressed in furs, have wild beards, kind of wild men of the woods kind of figures. And so you kind of squidge them all together and maybe a touch of Father Christmas in there as well, because despite the Puritan colonists best efforts, he probably makes his way to the New World as well. And out of that melange, somewhere, again, somewhere around New York, somewhere In the late 18th century, this figure called Santa Claus emerges. So drawing from St Nicholas, but also drawing from a host of other traditional European gift bringers. And then we have to wait a few decades.

Interviewer Matt Elton (8:29)

Shall we pause just a moment? Because I have a feeling that some of these deep roots of the Santa Claus variant of this figure might come as a surprise to listeners, because I think there's sometimes an idea that Santa Claus specifically is a very much more recent, very much more American. Whereas what it sounds like you're saying is actually the roots of that figure go very far back historically in a way that we may not always give full credit to. Is that right?

Historian Thomas Rees Smith (8:58)

Yes, I think that's absolutely right. I think especially. Well, I mean, I grew up in the late 20th century, let's say, and I think there was definitely a suspicion in my childhood that Father Christmas had always been Father Christmas and he'd always been the figure who visited British houses to bring presents at Christmas time. And Santa Claus was an American Aravist. And actually Santa Claus was a figure who represented a worrying Americanization of British culture. But yes, absolutely, Santa Claus has himself a deep history. And certainly the Father Christmas that we think of now, the Father Christmas that we associate with visiting your house, bringing presents, leaving them in your stocking, is really heavily influenced by Santa Claus for, you know, at least a century and a half. So, yeah, these things go, I think, deeper than people realize. And again, if you, I mean, some people as well, when they're drawing this family tree, will actually trace one line of it back to figures like Odin. So even a kind of, you know, pre Christian figure can appear in that lineage. I'm not sure whether there's much evidence for that, but it's surprising how much even the 19th century people are banding around the idea that somehow Odin sits behind some of these figures as well. So we've got 4th century bishops, we've got Odin, we've got other kind of mysterious pre Christian traditions that might be influencing here. And yes, Santa Claus is a key part of all of this in a way that is, yeah, absolutely buried deep into the legends that we develop around Christmastime.

Interviewer Matt Elton (10:29)

So we've set ourselves something of a task here. We've got not one, but two slightly elusive characters to keep track of. And if at any point I sort of mislabel one as the other, then you must, must call me out on it. Just to return to an idea that you did mention earlier, which is the fact that obviously listeners might be aware that in the 17th century, this was an era in which Puritans really set out to ban the marking of Christmas. Did Father Christmas take a side in this particular conflict?

Historian Thomas Rees Smith (10:57)

I think more to the point, he was used as a figure by both sides to support their case. So certainly he appears most frequently in pamphlets written by anti puritans in support of Christmas. So he's brought to the fore as a figure who's attempting to defend the old ways of Christmas. It's amazing how frequently this happens in the history of Christmas, actually, that each era thinks that its Christmas is under threat and it tries to evoke the power of nostalgia, to bring back a kind of golden age of Christmas. And so that's really how Father Christmas first comes into print. I mean, when Ben Johnson writes his famous Christmas mask, even in 1611, when Christmas is personified as a figure with a whole variety of children, like mince pie and various other kind of things associated with the festive season, even then, he's kind of framing that in a sense of Christmas being under attack or somehow not having the same position as it's had in previous eras. But, yeah, by the time we get to the Civil War and the interregnum, that's when predominantly those who are attempting to defend Christmas, Royalist pamphleteers are bringing Father Christmas forward as a personification, as a defence of the old ways of Christmas and as a support to those who want to keep celebrating the old ways of Christmas. On the other hand, you do get some Puritan pamphleteers who fight back and kind of condemn Father Christmas in their pamphlets as well. So, yes, he's a figure who is brought to the fore in this culture war around Christmas that develops in the 17th century. And I think he probably is reinstated after the restoration of the monarchy and after Christmas, you know, has a kind of revival in those years. But it's not really until we get to the 19th century that he kind of really emerges again as a vibrant figure in popular culture.

Narrator/Host (12:49)

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Interviewer Matt Elton (14:10)

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Historian Thomas Rees Smith (15:24)

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Interviewer Matt Elton (15:58)

The things I want to do as we go through this conversation is just check in periodically to see the extent to which Father Christmas that we know today is starting to take shape in terms of the image of the man. Before we head into the Victorian era, how much would we recognize Father Christmas as we know him today?

Historian Thomas Rees Smith (16:16)

Before the Victorian era, there's not a great visual record of Father Christmas. As I say, he's depicted in a couple of these Puritan pamphlets. And he's recognizable in the sense that he's an older man with a big beard. But that aside, there's not a huge amount that would necessarily. I don't know if you could spot him in a lineup. If you put six people in Father Christmas outfits and you put the Puritan version of that or the anti puritan version of that into the lineup, I don't know if you'd necessarily choose him. I think it's the Victorians really who help to bring that into focus conceptually. This sense of him representing the winter season. Yeah, I think that's there. I think you would be able to understand the role that he's playing in that era through those texts.

Interviewer Matt Elton (16:59)

So his function will be recognisable, if not his image.

Historian Thomas Rees Smith (17:02)

Yes, as long as we don't bring in the delivering presence bit. Because that is a much later add on.

Interviewer Matt Elton (17:08)

Okay, let's start to talk about some of the later add ons. When we get to the Victorian era. Is this. Are we saying the period during which really Father Christmas became the dominant image of the Christmas period?

Historian Thomas Rees Smith (17:19)

Yes, but we have to step back a couple of decades to the early 19th century to really see that process take shape. Because 1821, 1823, those are two key years in the emergence of Santa Claus back across the Atlantic. Because in 1821, we get the first real print description of Santa Claus, his first real appearance in print. He stars in a picture book for children which contains illustrations and a poem which describes the way that Santa Claus visits houses. It's all there. It's amazing how complete it is. Santa Claus visits houses on Christmas Eve in a sleigh drawn by a reindeer dressed in red robes, comes down your chimney, leaves your presence in your stocking. As long as you've been good, he just leaves some sticks in your stocking if you've been bad. So he's still a bit of a kind of moral arbiter. And I guess that's something that comes and goes in our sense of Santa Claus, how much we emphasize the idea of being on the naughty list or not. But anyway, 1821, it's amazing how much it's all there in this picture book. And then just two years later, possibly inspired by the earlier poem, we get what's still one of the dominant images of Santa Claus and still one of the most popular poems in the English language, which is Clement Clark Moore's a visit from St Nicholas, which is better known by its first line. Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the house not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse. And More builds on what we've already got there. So we have to assume on some level this is already circulating as a folk story. Do these authors invent some of this? Are they drawing from tradition? We're not really sure. But More gives us a very vivid image of this Santa Claus as being jolly, merry, plump, but far more closer to our image of Santa Claus. And he names Santa's reindeers, all eight of them, apart from Rudolph, who doesn't appear until 1939. So that really lays the template for everything that follows. And thereafter in an American context, writers really start to build on those foundational images. And I think this is what's unique about Santa Claus. There have always been gift bringers, as we said, across Europe, lots of different gift bringers in different communities, all performing a similar function in the winter era. Different saints, different folk figures, all doing the same. But Santa Claus, for some reason within the American context, becomes a figure that American writers and artists really start to work with, to find inspiration in and to build a whole world around him. His home in the North Pole, his toy workshop, his elves. Mrs. Claus appears right. It's incredible how much they all keep iterating on this character and building him an extraordinary fantasy world. Print culture being what it is in the Victorian era, it doesn't take long for this to arrive in Victorian England. And Santa Claus as the figure that we know, starts appearing in British culture from the 1850s onwards. There are some key publications that help that. A visit from St Nicholas, for example, is reprinted in the Illustrated London News in the middle of the 1850s, along with an article that describes these American Christmas customs. You know, children hanging up their stockings. It tells you how to. It's like a. It's like a lifestyle guide about how to do this, this American Christmas thing. And a very popular writer called Susan Warner, who's one of the biggest selling authors of the 1850s, she's an American, but her works are, if anything, even more popular in Britain. She writes a book about a young boy who hangs up his Christmas stocking, and it's called the Christmas Stocking. So again, there's accounts from people who grew up in this period saying, yep, absolutely, we all read this book. And then we all wanted to start hanging up our stocking. So it has a kind of virality which we can understand. You know, I mean, obviously, things go viral much more quickly in 2025, and it takes a few decades for Santa Claus to go viral from the 1820s to the 1850s. But nonetheless, you get this sense there's a real craze in the 1850s for Santa Claus in Victorian England. There's a great quote from a Birmingham newspaper which says, santa Claus has scaled the wooden walls of old England over the last couple of years. So, you know, people are recognizing this as a new thing. At the same time, Father Christmas has also had a revival. From the late 1830s, mid-1830s onwards, we can see an increasing interest in a kind of antiquarian interest in Christmas developing. So before Dickens, you know, we kind of think of Dickens as really igniting the Victorian Christmas revival. And absolutely, you know, he's a pivotal figure in that. But even before Dickens published his Christmas Carol in 1843, you've got writers who are increasingly looking back old Christmas customs as they're understood. And again, this element of nostalgia, this element of, you know, maybe we've lost something that maybe we need to bring back. And Father Christmas starts to be one of those figures who is evoked again in this era as a characteristic and a characterful embodiment of the season. And so, again, you start getting illustrations of Father Christmas in the Illustrated London News, for example, in the early 1840s, looking, I think, familiar to us, but still a bit more. Bit more pagan, bit more rugged. He's always got this crown of greenery, probably got some kind of robe. There's a famous one where he's riding a goat. I don't. I mean, I'm not sure what's going on there necessarily, but these are all in the mix as images of Father Christmas. And I think probably Dickens is important here as well, because if we think of the ghost of Christmas Present in A Christmas Carol, he, I think, is a great embodiment of what Father Christmas means before we get to the later 19th century. I think, you know, Ghost of Christmas Present is very much an embodiment of the Christmas season in that book. He's got the evergreen crown, you know, in the famous John Leach illustrations. He's got the robes and he's got this kind of bountiful cornucopia of Christmas feasting. So he really is embodiment of the Christmas season who is born every Christmas and dies at the end of every Christmas. So I think he's a touchstone that we're all probably familiar with. That's kind of Father Christmas in early Victorian Christmas culture. Kind of antiquarian figure, a figure who is Christmas personified. But then, of course, we have this intermingling that takes place. We've got both the players on the board. Father Christmas is back with a new kind of purpose in Victorian culture. Santa Claus has arrived from America and is generating all these new Christmas behaviors, these novelties of, you know, hanging up stockings and having them filled up every Christmas. And over the next few decades, they're going to have a relationship that changes both of them, in a sense, and.

Interviewer Matt Elton (24:04)

The currents of that are fascinating. Before we get into that, I want to return to my idea of iconography. Bingo, if we can call it that, and just sort of hone in on a couple of the things that we now think of as being either Father Christmas or Santa Claus. And I wondered if you perhaps could tell us a little bit about some of the context behind those. So you mentioned earlier the idea of a lineup of Father Christmases, and I suppose if there ever was to be a lineup of Father Christmases, it would be house entering that he was probably in the dock for, potentially. Why does Father Christmas come down the chimney? Is it Father Christmas? Is it Santa? And does it tell us anything about the fact that that's the. The method of entry that he uses?

Historian Thomas Rees Smith (24:43)

Well, I think it's definitely Santa who pioneers the chimney house entry. And I don't think there is a good reason for it. There's not an explainer. What I think is very engaging is that when you look at Americans who themselves are dealing with this new craze in the 1840s, they are often mystified. They're like, how has this happened? How are we all suddenly doing this tradition where this guy's going to come down the chimney and fill up these stockings? Because, you know, as I say, these things are never nailed down in a particular moment. They always spread organically. And suddenly, you've got your children hectoring you to start this strange new custom where this man's gonna come down the chimney. Apparently so, yes. Even. Even in America, just a couple of decades after this thing gets going, people are already like, well, I have no idea how we got here. And definitely the coming down the chimney part of the Santa myth is part of that. And already you can tell that parents are fielding questions. Parents whose houses don't have chimneys are already fielding questions. How is Santa going to get in here? We don't have a chimney. It's okay. He can come in through the pipes or through the keyhole or through the window or so parents are already having to deal with that. There is a bit of a. I think it's a slightly torturous connection back to St. Nicholas because depending on which legends of St. Nicholas you're talking about, he famously gives presents around his saints day to various impoverished families to get them out of certain kinds of trouble. And some people see the idea of him throwing money, as it were, through a window or through some kind of opening anonymously as being the inspiration for Santa coming down the chimney. And certainly I think when St. Nicholas was around to perform these charitable acts, I don't think there were chimneys. So already it feels that there's a bit of a stretch going on here. The reason I think that it catches on is because it helps to generate this sense of magic associated with Santa, with Father Christmas. And I think it is that magical quality that I think helps it to become something that persists over centuries as a custom, which is in some senses inexplicable. There is something about it that transcends the everyday. The whole purpose of it in a sense is to wrap up Christmas gift giving in something a bit more magical, a bit more transcendent, something that marks it out from the ordinary. It has that kind of fairytale folk quality that you can imagine as it develops amongst some people in the late 18th century. But I don't know if there's any better explanation for it than that.

Interviewer Matt Elton (27:11)

From the magical to the slightly more mundane. Are both of these gentlemen bearded characters and does that tell us anything at all?

Historian Thomas Rees Smith (27:19)

Well, I think always Christmas is depicted as an older gentleman. So I think it's adds to that sense of venerable age wisdom because I suppose we're coming to the end of the year. So there is that connection with winter being the old age, if you like, and the end of one year before we get to the rebirth in the new year. So there's a kind of old year quality to that. You know, we're coming to the end of something. So I think that speaks to his age and also that kind of old Father Time ness going on there. I think there were lots of things feeding into that. Yes. It's difficult to imagine either of them without a beard, isn't it, as a prospect? I think that's probably. That might be the. Almost the key element of the Father Christmas Santa image in some senses. But I think it probably speaks to that sense of age and the end, him representing winter and the end of the Year. One way that you can spot the difference is the question of headgear because Santa wears a Santa hat. And I think that's, you know, that makes sense. We're all on board with that. You can often spot a Father Christmas from a Santa because Father Christmas wears a hood. So you know, we can think of a kind of hooded outfit, hood up, you know, fur around the edge still. But Santa would never wear a hood. But Father Christmas often wears a hood. But now, you know, these things are blurred again. And he will often have a Santa hat on as well. But if you see a guy with a beard and a hood, I would say that's Father Christmas.

Interviewer Matt Elton (28:51)

To extend this idea of what they might be wearing. One of the, I think the ongoing debates around Father Christmas, Santa Claus is whether or not he's always worn a red suit or whether that has been an image that's been co opted or shifted by companies including perhaps Coca Cola. What's your take on this slightly thorny subject?

Historian Thomas Rees Smith (29:13)

Definitely there's a fluidity to the outfit throughout the 19th century. I've already talked about Santa's first appearance in print in 1821 and he's conspicuously in red in that appearance. So you know, in some senses in his origin story there in print at least he is in red. And that's unsurprising because if we're thinking about some kind of genetic connection to St Nicholas, bishop's robes, red, it kind of, you know, it works that he would be in red and there is a nod to the older figure of St. Nicholas. But yes, you will definitely find Santa Clauses and Father Christmases throughout the 19th century who are attired in different colours, blue, green, very popular, especially with Father Christmas because there is that association with kind of winter greenery. So that kind of does make sense. But before Coca Cola get to Santa in 1930 ish, it's kind of early 1930s, they start using him in their advertising campaigns. Father Christmas and Santa Claus are both pretty much in red. I think that's, you know, it's already well established by that point. So Coca Cola does not invent or generate the red Father Christmas. I think undoubtedly though the iconic illustrations that they produce throughout that period certainly help to again kind of solidify the popular image of Father Christmas and Santa Claus. So it definitely doesn't hurt that iconic image. You know, it helps to really solidify in the popular conscious and probably I think it helps to solidify in a global way. You know, once Santa's involved in that kind of multinational commercial world, then I think it changes him from being either a regional figure or a national figure or an international figure to a truly global figure. So I think it helps to make that Santa image a global thing. But it's not something that's invented by Coca Cola.

Interviewer Matt Elton (31:02)

To return us briefly to the 19th century, I just wanted to pick up on something you mentioned there. I think what it sounds like you're saying is during the 19th century, Father Christmas and Santa Claus sort of coexisted peacefully, side by side, as two equally valid cultural figures. Is that right?

Historian Thomas Rees Smith (31:20)

Yes, I think that's. There's a period from, you know, after 1850 and probably before the 1880s, 1890s, where people fully understand these as two different characters. And you will see newspapers. I think there's a nice editorial from somewhere in the 1870s where the author says, well, Father Christmas has arrived and he's brought some cold weather with him, and we're all looking forward to Santa Claus coming on Christmas Eve to bring the presents. So you've got that perfect. One is the season itself, and one is this guy who comes to bring presents, but slippage's. Because, again, these things aren't science. Right. And slippages occur quite soon. In the late 19th century. People start talking about Father Christmas being the one who's also bringing your presents. And that slippage occurs more and more and more as we go through the 19th century. I think there is that sense that there is this a preference for a kind of nationalistic figure who evokes something of Britishness. And interestingly, you do get a sense around the kind of run into the First World War, that there is definitely a kind of jingoistic preference emerging for Father Christmas because there is a sense, not that Santa Claus is necessarily an American figure, although there's maybe a bit of an antagonism around that. But actually, because maybe there's something a bit too Germanic y about the whole Santa Claus tradition. So you do get a couple of commentators saying, absolutely, no, it's Father Christmas. He's a good British figure. I mean, this is true today as well. But it's also true, you know, around the turn of the 20th century in the same thing, you might get someone saying, oh, don't forget to hang up your stocking for Father Christmas. I hope everyone's looking forward to Santa Claus coming. So we literally will just use the two terms as interchangeable. But, yes, this is something that you see debated over those decades. You know, people saying, well, hang on, is it Father Christmas? Is it Santa Claus? And I think people just come to a growing sense that actually over here in Britain, we do Father Christmas. And I think what's amazing is how decades of children growing up in Victorian Britain waiting for Santa Claus almost kind of gets erased. And as Christmas has a habit of doing, suddenly this is what we've always done, right? This is. It's always been Father Christmas who's brought the presents in his sleigh to leave in our stocking. And at some point, it becomes that's always been the way. We've never had Santa Claus in this country. He's just a creeping Americanization of British culture. And. Yes, and that pops up again and again throughout the 20th century.

Interviewer Matt Elton (33:44)

Are there any other sources or cultural works or writers who you think have contributed to this shifting view of these figures, who we've not highlighted that you think we ought to?

Historian Thomas Rees Smith (33:56)

Well, I think what's interesting in the American context is that there are lots and lots and lots of stories told about Santa Claus. You know, he becomes a very vibrant figure in popular culture. And there's a surprising lineup of American literary luminaries who engage with the figure of Santa Claus. So L. Frank Baum, who writes the wizard of Oz, who's back on everyone's minds because of Wicked, he writes a whole book about Santa Claus where he tries to kind of reinvent the mythology a bit. It doesn't really stick. He renames the reindeers, and that really doesn't take hold of people's imaginations. But nonetheless, you know, he's dealing with Santa Claus. Francis Hodgson Burnett, you know, we best known for the Secret Garden, really a kind of transatlantic figure, even in the 19th century. Born in Britain, lives in America, crosses the Atlantic endlessly. She writes a story about Santa Claus. So Santa Claus has a really rich popular cultural life in America in the 19th century. Father Christmas, strangely enough, does not have as much of a kind of cultural canon. There's much less written about Father Christmas as a figure who we shape stories around. But I do think that, I mean, for example, he appears in the middle of the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, which is surprising. Sometimes when you read the book again, you forget that Father Christmas pops up halfway through. And I think it's probably that kind of moment in a children's book like that that's so iconic still, that really helps to cement the idea of Father Christmas being the most important figure in a British Christmas cultural sense. Obviously, you've got Tolkien writing his letters from Father Christmas, which are not in the public imagination when they're first written from about 1920 to sometime in the Second World War, because they're written for his children, but, you know, they are published later. I suppose, when you get to, you know, someone like Raymond Briggs writing about Father Christmas, I think he's one of the most iconic and incredibly kind of British renditions of what Father Christmas means in that sense. You know, there's a very specific Britishness that is attached to that. And that probably is also important, I think, for keeping Father Christmas alive as a character with an inner life and an outer world that is different from Santa Claus.

Interviewer Matt Elton (36:04)

To check back in for one final time on the image we have today of these figures, at what point did he become the owner of a workshop in the North Pole populated by elves and married to Mother Christmas? Mrs. Claus.

Historian Thomas Rees Smith (36:18)

The workshop emerges around the 1850s. So there's a book by Caroline Butler, and she has a visit to Santa's workshop, which is populated by the familiar kind of army of little helpers. She doesn't name them explicitly as elves in that book, but the whole the workshop scenario is completely there, fully formed. Although Santa Claus is a bit of a tyrant in that book. You know, he's kind of really exhorting those poor little helpers to work harder and harder. He's like a kind of industrial factory owner. And so not for the first time, the working conditions of the North Pole are seem possibly slightly problematic, and they become elves over the next couple of decades. And actually his home in the North Pole, that kind of takes shape around the same time, I think, probably working backwards from the fact that he arrives in a sleigh pulled by a reindeer, which, again, is not necessarily explicable. So I think people think, well, okay, if there's a reindeer involved, he's probably based somewhere around there. Mrs. Claus is very much a product of the late 1860s, 1870s, 1880s. That's when she really kind of comes to the fore. And what's interesting about that is you can see the way in which Santa and Father Christmas both respond to changes in the world around them. Because when she emerges, she's absolutely immediately caught up in the question around women's rights. So the women's rights movement in America is gaining more traction over those decades, and Mrs. Claus becomes a figure who is both put forward as a champion of women's rights and also is also used as a figure for those who are saying the status quo is fine. You know, we don't need to change anything. Women don't need more rights in Society. So Mrs. Claus is evoked as a figure on both Sides of that debate. So it's interesting, again, as in the Puritan era, how these figures respond to the society around them and also how they respond to technology. Santa is always having to engage with new forms of technology. So when the telephone comes along, there are lots of stories about what this means for Santa's work. So there's a story where he becomes incredibly fed up because children won't stop ringing him to tell him what they want for Christmas. And again, when the aeroplane, the automobile are invented, the camera, all of these things get absorbed and played around with by people who are looking for new angles, new stories to tell about Santa Claus. I think, in a sense, there are still attempts to reinvent Santa Claus. And I think some stick, some don't. A lot depends on when you grow up, unsurprisingly, because the traditions of your childhood take on this very significant and in a sense, eternal place in your mind. So this year happens to be the 40th anniversary of Santa Claus, the movie which. Which, depending on your age and your. And your geographic location, you may have fond memories of, that was a big film in Britain in 1985. It was absolute box office smash. Everywhere else in the world hated it. America hated it. Everyone associated with it kind of disavowed it over the years. But it was an enormous success in this country and still occupies quite a nostalgic place in many people's memories of the figure of Santa Claus. So, yeah, these things are very dependent on time and location and that brief window of childhood when the magic of Santa Claus is all powerful.

Interviewer Matt Elton (39:34)

Just exploring the idea you mentioned there of the variance across different places in the world. How does Father Christmas or Santa Claus pop up differently in different parts of the world? And I suppose how do people from various religions try to understand the concept or try to pass the concept onto their children?

Historian Thomas Rees Smith (39:52)

In a sense, Santa is Santa everywhere because he is. He does have this global presence. So I think he, above all of the gift bringers, has kind of transcended any kind of local tradition and has become a figure who is very much of the world. In a sense, he is responsible for, you know, the trillions of dollars that Crispus represents to the global economy. A lot of them are attached to his image. So in a sense, he's, you know, the most successful intellectual property of all time, arguably. But yes. So other. Other countries still have very distinctive relationships to their own gift bringers. I think, probably, as I say, Santa is Santa. So. But, you know, St. Nicholas, of course, is still. Is still a really significant presence in many parts of Europe, you know, and then there's a whole, which I don't necessarily think we're always familiar with, but, you know, St. Nicholas arrives in Holland every year in late November on a steamboat from Spain, where he lives. And I imagine that might be a surprise to many British or American listeners that, yes, St. Nicholas lives in Spain and he arrives every year on a steamboat. And that's a big moment in, you know, in Dutch popular culture as well. Lots of other saints whose saints days are around this period have traditionally had some relationship with gifts. So St. Basil, St. Lucy, they're both, you know, popular figures in different parts of Europe who also bring gifts with them. Then you have slightly more intriguing ones. So in Italy, you have this figure of Befana, who's kind of a witch, and she brings presents on Epiphany. So there's a whole backstory to A, why she's a witch and B, why she brings presents around Epiphany. And, you know, Iceland famous. I think these are more and more famous, these ones, but. But has a whole selection of slightly terrifying figures, like the Yule cat who will eat you if you're not wearing your new Christmas clothes. The kind of ogres, an ogre called Grylla, who again, will do terrible things to you if you transgress certain things. She has a series of children called the Yule Lads. Thirteen figures who visit you over the festive period and create various sorts of domestic chaos. The list of gift bringers that we have developed over the winter period over many hundreds, thousands of years is very deep and has an amazing cast of characters. But, yeah, none of them really approach Santa in terms of being a kind of a viral sensation for the last 200 years.

Interviewer Matt Elton (42:13)

As listeners who are marking Christmas this year make their final preparations, how would you like them to think about the characters that we've been talking about today?

Historian Thomas Rees Smith (42:22)

I think people have different opinions about whether. Whether Father Christmas or Santa Claus are, in a sense, good traditions that we pass on. You know, I think there are arguments for and against, but I think we should cherish them as figures in popular culture who are entirely benevolent. They're figures who are entirely devoted to spreading happiness, spreading festive cheer, and, you know, as male role models, I think they stand up. You know, they're. They're about doing good, being kind, being resilient. You know, I think there's a whole host of values that Santa and Father Christmas have that we should probably celebrate. And I think it's great that we put them at the heart of Christmas.

Narrator/Host (43:02)

Still, that was Thomas Rees Smith in conversation with Matt Elton. Tom is professor of American Literature and Culture at the University of East Anglia, and his book Searching for For Santa Claus, an anthology of the poems, stories and illustrations that shaped a global icon, is out now, and Tom has also written an excellent feature on the rivalry between Father Christmas and Santa Claus. There's a link to that in the description of this episode.

Historian Thomas Rees Smith (43:35)

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Narrator/Host (43:37)

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Historian Thomas Rees Smith (43:40)

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