History Extra Podcast

Episode: From dodos to 'lost' tribes: a history of extinction
Date: August 21, 2025
Host: James Osborne
Guest: Professor Saadia Qureshi, historian of race, science, and empire; author of An Unnatural History of Extinction

Episode Overview

In this compelling conversation, historian Professor Saadia Qureshi discusses the changing ideas of extinction and how these evolving concepts have shaped our understanding of both nature and humanity. Drawing from her new book, An Unnatural History of Extinction, Qureshi and Osborne explore landmark cases like the dodo, the role of theology and colonialism, the extension of extinction logic to human communities, and the deep political implications such narratives bring—both past and present.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining “Unnatural” Extinction

[03:00]

• The Dodo as the Archetype: The extinction of the dodo on Mauritius is framed as a classic unnatural extinction—one directly caused by human intervention (the arrival of the Dutch and Portuguese, and the introduction of predatory mammals).
  • Quote: “The idea that extinction is happening all the time in nature is not prevalent at all...something like the dodo would be seen as a human-induced event rather than a natural process.”
    — Saadia Qureshi [03:00]
• Perception at the Time: The loss was seen as a catastrophe or rare anomaly, not a recurring process.

2. Theological Constraints on the Concept of Extinction

[04:22]

• Reluctance to Admit Extinction: Early modern worldviews, grounded in the perfection of God’s creation, left little room for the idea that species could vanish naturally.
  • Quote: “To think of something going extinct all the time is effectively to admit that God’s creation has these flaws... So nobody would expect...a process that would rob the world of species...”
    — Saadia Qureshi [04:22]

3. Scientific Recognition & Skepticism—From the Dodo to the Mammoth

[06:34]

• Mammoth Bones and Georges Cuvier: In the late 18th century, Cuvier’s thorough examination of fossil evidence led to the first widespread scientific acceptance of extinction—not just as a human-mediated anomaly but as an ongoing natural process. However, prominent figures like Thomas Jefferson resisted, assuming extinct animals still lived “somewhere we haven’t found.”
  • Quote: “Through those kinds of really, really thorough investigations, [Cuvier] is able to establish that...this beast...must be extinct.”
    — Saadia Qureshi [06:50]
• Lost World Evoked: These discoveries gradually pushed the idea of a “lost world” into the public imagination.

4. Personal Reflections: Seeing a Dodo Specimen

[09:10]

• Profound Loss: Qureshi recounts the emotional impact of viewing the Oxford dodo—a fragmentary remnant that symbolizes the irreversible destruction of “ways of being.”
  • Quote: “To see such a curious way of being...reduced to almost nothing...it brings home the fact that human beings...have robbed the world of these incredible and distinctive ways of being...”
    — Saadia Qureshi [09:10]

5. Linking Extinction with Empire and Colonialism

[11:29]

• Concept Expansion: Ideas about animal extinction quickly became tools for justifying colonial dispossession, applied to indigenous peoples and framed as inevitable “vanishing” instead of violent displacement.
  • Quote: “There’s that fundamental way in which ideas of animal extinction are used to narrate the history of settler colonies as process of extinction rather than a violent process of dispossession.”
    — Saadia Qureshi [11:29]
• Enabling Science: Imperial resource extraction enabled figures like Cuvier to assemble crucial scientific evidence; science, empire, and extinction discourse are structurally linked.

6. Problems with Conflating Peoples and Species Extinction

[14:26]

• Case Study—Beothuk: The narrative of “the last of their people” imposed on the Beothuk by European observers ignored ongoing community migration and survival, furthering erasure and justifying denial of land rights.
  • Quote: “There are multiple layers of denial and disavowal involved in these kinds of claims about extinction...by us, if we continue to perpetuate them without thinking critically...”
    — Saadia Qureshi [14:26]

7. Political Implications—Extinction Narratives as Injustice

[18:19]

• Denial of Existence and Rights: The myth of native extinction underpins continued injustice, as “extinct” groups find their sovereignty and land claims systematically undermined.
  • Quote: “By repeating claims of Native Extinction uncritically, people do not realize that they are both ignoring continued Native existence...but it also perpetuates other forms of injustice, such as the denial of land rights.”
    — Saadia Qureshi [18:19]

8. Tension: Admitting Human Destructiveness vs. Justifying Dispossession

[19:55]

• Complexity of Responsibility: While it’s important to acknowledge humanity’s power to erase species, extending that logic uncritically to human groups enables colonial denial and oppression.

9. Evolution of the Concept of Extinction: Timeline

[22:47]

• Early Modern Era: Losses seen as “extirpation” or rare intervention, not systemic.
• French Revolution and Cuvier: Scientific recognition of animal extinction; transitions from theological taboo to a natural process.
• 19th Century: Extinction as providential/inevitable, supporting imperial expansion (e.g., British Empire).
• Late 19th to 20th Century: Recognition of rapid human-caused extinctions (bison, passenger pigeon); conservation, national parks, and emerging environmentalism.
• 1980s–Today: Mass extinction and biodiversity crisis as central narratives, focus on urgent action.
  • Quote: “Extinction then comes to be something that can be both rapidly accelerated by humans, but that also means it can be stopped or halted.”
    — Saadia Qureshi [25:33]

10. National Parks—Conservation and Dispossession

[27:14]

• Origins as Tourism, Not Conservation: Initially, American national parks were about facilitating tourism, not saving species.
• Dispossession of Indigenous Peoples: Parks were carved from native lands; conservation narratives erase the violence underpinning their creation.
  • Quote: “National parks...are carved out from the lands of native peoples...often forced off those lands, are dispossessed of them...”
    — Saadia Qureshi [27:14]

11. Forgotten Names and Hidden Narratives

[30:26]

• Georges Cuvier: Underappreciated progenitor of the extinction concept, overshadowed by Darwin.
• Shana Dittith (Beothuk): Emblematic of the personal costs of extinction narratives.
  • Quote: “I would be far happier if people knew who Shana Dittith was and what her life story really means...”
    — Saadia Qureshi [30:26]

12. Hope for the Future—New Relations with Nature

[31:59]

• Transformational Potential: Understanding the roots of extinction narratives and respecting “ways of being” opens the door to a new ethic—one based not on extraction and dominion, but on care, justice, and coexistence.
  • Quote: “If we can change the way we relate to other ways of being around us...that itself is a huge, huge shift from thinking of nature as an exploitable resource.”
    — Saadia Qureshi [32:27]
• Love and Justice as Guiding Values: A “love letter to the natural world” and a call for policies that embrace both biodiversity and indigenous justice.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "[The idea of extinction as a process] is not prevalent at all...that's why something like the dodo would be seen as a human-induced event rather than a natural process."
  — Professor Saadia Qureshi [03:00]

• "To see such a curious way of being...reduced to almost nothing...is a very, very powerful realisation, but also incredibly upsetting."
  — Professor Saadia Qureshi [09:10]

• "By repeating claims of Native Extinction uncritically, people do not realise...they are perpetuating injustice, such as the denial of land rights."
  — Professor Saadia Qureshi [18:19]

• "Extinction as a political choice offers hope rooted in love and joy...if we change the way we relate to ways of being around us."
  — Professor Saadia Qureshi [31:59]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:00 — Dodo and the concept of unnatural extinction
• 04:22 — Theology and the difficulty of accepting extinction
• 06:34 — Mammoth bones, Cuvier, and the shift to extinction as a process
• 09:10 — Emotional impact of seeing a dodo specimen
• 11:29 — Extinction, imperialism, and colonial narratives
• 14:26 — Problems with applying extinction logic to human groups (Beothuk case)
• 18:19 — Extinction myths and their impact on indigenous rights
• 22:47 — Timeline and shifting concepts of extinction
• 27:14 — Origins and complex legacy of national parks
• 30:26 — Forgotten faces: Cuvier and Shana Dittith
• 31:59 — Finding hope and ethical transformation through history

Further Reading & References

• An Unnatural History of Extinction by Professor Saadia Qureshi
• For more on extinct animals: “Everything You Wanted to Know” episode with Dr. Ross Barnett

This episode delivers both a sweeping historical overview and an intimate, morally urgent reflection on what extinction means—and whom it serves to remember or erase. It is essential listening for anyone interested in natural history, science, colonialism, or the future of conservation and justice.