History Extra Podcast: "Ghosts, Grief and the Paranormal" — Episode Summary

Release Date: October 27, 2025
Host: John Baucum
Guest: Dr. Alice Vernon, Lecturer in 19th-Century Literature and Creative Writing at Aberystwyth University

Overview

This episode delves into the evolution of ghost hunting over the past two centuries, exploring why society remains captivated by the paranormal, the deep link between grief and ghost-seeking, and how cultural, scientific, and technological shifts have transformed the way we interact with the supernatural. Dr. Alice Vernon joins host John Baucum to discuss her new book, "A History of Ghost Hunting and Why We Keep Looking," weaving together personal experience, historical anecdotes, infamous hauntings, and the social psychology behind our ongoing fascination with ghosts.

1. Origin & Personal Motivation (02:57–04:21)

• Alice Vernon discusses how her own experiences with sleep disorders and night terrors, often involving hallucinations, inspired her to investigate the cultural and historical aspects of ghost stories.

• She notes that many ghost stories are tied to nighttime, sleep, and the bedroom, linking her personal struggles to larger historical patterns.

  "So many ghost stories take place in the bedroom... someone's asleep and they wake up in the middle of the night and there's something looming over them."
  (Alice Vernon, 03:37)

2. Defining a Ghost (04:21–04:59)

• Ghosts are ubiquitous across cultures but defy simple definition.
• Vernon's definition:

  "...it is basically an echo, a lingering echo of something that was once alive but now isn’t."
  (Alice Vernon, 04:41)

3. Ancient and Early Ghost Stories (04:59–06:42)

• Earliest known tales include the story of Athenodorus in ancient Rome, illustrating that ghosts often acted as messengers with unfinished business.

• These stories typically reflected the need for closure—resolving the ghost’s “message” would grant peace.

  "The sort of early ways that ghosts existed were as messengers...they had some kind of message, or revenge."
  (Alice Vernon, 05:42)

4. The 19th-Century Ghost Hunting Boom & Spiritualism (06:42–09:00)

• True cultural obsession with ghost hunting began mid-1800s with Spiritualism, sparked by the Fox sisters in upstate New York.

• Fox sisters’ innovation: Two-way communication with a ghost (Mr. Split Foot) via knocks and coded messaging during séances.

• Connection to mass grief, especially surrounding the American Civil War—people sought contact and reassurance as they mourned loved ones.

  "It really begins with ... Margaret and Kate Fox... they actually began this two-way conversation, allegedly with a ghost that lived in their farmhouse."
  (Alice Vernon, 07:19)

5. Science, Technology, and Fraud: Spirit Photography (09:00–12:00)

• The rise of photography enabled new ways to “capture” spirits.

• Charlatans exploited the public’s unfamiliarity with photographic techniques. Example: William Mumler’s “spirit” photos, including one of Abraham Lincoln for his widow.

• Spirit photos demonstrate how intertwined technological advancement and supernatural belief became.

• Science and skepticism often lagged widespread public acceptance.

  “...when you look at some of these so-called spirit photographs now, they are hilarious... but at the time it was such a new format, people didn't understand how photographs worked.”
  (Alice Vernon, 09:28)

6. The Scientist Believers vs. Skeptics (12:00–13:47)

• Sir Arthur Conan Doyle stands out as a scientific giant who became a fervent advocate for Spiritualism, even falling out with magicians like Harry Houdini who routinely sought to debunk mediums.

• Scientists, unlike magicians, often got captivated by the promise of making contact with the dead.

  “Magicians...deliberately misled their audience and the audience knew that. Whereas the spiritualists ... made out that what they were producing was absolutely real.”
  (Alice Vernon, 12:11)

7. Grief and the Afterlife: Sir Oliver Lodge & WWI (13:47–17:33)

• Spiritualism surged after tragedies like World War I, as society dealt with profound collective grief.

• Sir Oliver Lodge, after losing his son Raymond in the war, became a powerful voice for Spiritualism, promoting séances and reporting comforting messages from the afterlife (which Spiritualists called “Summerland”).

• These stories provided solace for grieving families; Spiritualism offered a kind of pseudo-scientific closure.

  “For Mrs. Lodge, it was a huge comfort... for a lot of people spiritualism was a way for them to make peace with the horrible circumstances in which their son, brother, husband had died.”
  (Alice Vernon, 15:50)

8. Harry Price and the Rise of the ‘Celebrity Ghost Hunter’ (20:28–25:18)

• Harry Price: A colorful character and professional ghost hunter in the early 20th century, known for his obsession with publicity and his infamous investigation of Borley Rectory.

• Borley Rectory: Price organized a pseudo-scientific, highly publicized ghost hunt, complete with observer recruitment and strict procedures, leading to tales of hauntings and paranormal phenomena.

• Controversy: Price’s methods and findings were later condemned by his secretary, Molly Goldney, and fellow researcher Eric Dingwall in a posthumous exposé.

  “He just had a lot of money and wasn't quite sure what to do with it. So he sort of dabbled in all sorts of things. But...ghost hunting could get him quite a lot of publicity.”
  (Alice Vernon, 20:37)

9. The Case of Helen Duncan & Ectoplasm (25:18–29:23)

• Helen Duncan, a Scottish medium, gained notoriety for producing “ectoplasm” (usually cheesecloth or egg white) during séances.

• She was prosecuted under the Witchcraft Act after revealing sensitive WWII information during a séance.

• Harry Price’s scientific investigations of Duncan’s ectoplasm often devolved into farce and revealed fakery, but still drew public fascination.

  “He did what any investigator would do in that situation and he sniffed it. That was his immediate reaction, was to just sniff it.”
  (Alice Vernon, 27:52)

10. Child Poltergeists and The Culture of Belief (29:42–34:08)

• In postwar UK, poltergeist phenomena often focused on children, particularly in unstable household environments like council houses.

• Notable cases: The “Sorkie” and Enfield poltergeists. The Enfield case was heavily covered by the media and involved intense scrutiny of a child at the center of the alleged haunting.

• These cases highlighted the discomfort and ethical dilemmas of ghost investigation, especially when children were involved.

  “It is about a group of adults bearing down and just waiting for this child to mess up and show that they are the ones faking the phenomena.”
  (Alice Vernon, 31:43)

11. Media, Entertainment, and Escalation (34:08–36:12)

• Ghost stories and the portrayal of hauntings have become ever more dramatic and sensational in popular culture, from reality TV to horror films.

• Modern expectations demand increasingly shocking or fear-inducing evidence—trending from mysterious to outright terrifying.

  “No evidence is ever enough. It always has to be better. And I think we see that in how ghosts are portrayed in modern horror films. They're really scary.”
  (Alice Vernon, 35:36)

12. First-Hand Ghost Hunting (36:12–37:48)

• Alice Vernon describes her own experience training to be a paranormal investigator. Despite skepticism and fear, she found ghost hunting to be a uniquely social and surprisingly fun community activity.

• Ghost hunting, past and present, is motivated as much by camaraderie and curiosity as the supernatural itself.

  “What was the kind of the big eye opener for me...was just how fun it was... it’s a really fun social activity to just be in like a really weird old building at 3 o'clock in the morning...”
  (Alice Vernon, 37:12)

13. Continuity & Emotional Resonance (37:48–39:03)

• Despite advances in technology, the core motives for ghost hunting remain unchanged: grappling with mortality, mourning the dead, and maintaining connections to history.

• Ghost hunting serves as both an exploration of the unknown and a means of personal and collective comfort.

  “The technology changes, but the social aspect stays the same. It is about trying to understand our place in the world... and trying to make peace with mortality.”
  (Alice Vernon, 37:51)

14. Changing Perspectives (39:03–40:14)

• Vernon’s research journey shifted her perception from playful skepticism to a more empathetic view, especially regarding the role of grief in perpetuating beliefs about ghosts.

  “What really changed for me was the level of grief behind a lot of spiritualism and a lot of ghost hunting, which you cannot mock. You have to really look at it from an individual perspective.”
  (Alice Vernon, 39:13)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the personal and collective need for ghosts:

  “It is so human to be obsessed with the idea of ghost hunting.”
  (Alice Vernon, 04:13)

• On media sensationalism:

  “The media really lap up a poltergeist case. You don’t really see it very often in the newspapers these days, but in sort of the 1980s, 1990s, newspapers loved a poltergeist case.”
  (Alice Vernon, 32:59)

• On the emotional value of spiritualism:

  “She can face Christmas now because they've been having these sittings... the sons don’t quite believe... but for Mrs. Lodge it was a huge comfort.”
  (Alice Vernon, 15:37)

Key Timestamps

• Defining Ghosts: 04:21–04:59
• Earliest Ghost Story (Athenodorus): 04:59–06:29
• Spiritualism’s Rise (Fox sisters): 06:42–09:00
• Spirit Photography & Technology: 09:00–12:00
• Science vs. Spiritualism (Doyle, Houdini): 12:00–13:47
• WWI, Grief, and Spiritualism: 13:47–17:33
• Harry Price & Borley Rectory: 20:28–25:18
• Helen Duncan & Ectoplasm: 25:18–29:23
• Children & Poltergeist Cases: 29:42–34:08
• Media & Popular Culture: 34:08–36:12
• First-Hand Ghost Hunting: 36:12–37:48
• Enduring Motives and Grief: 37:48–40:14

Conclusion

This episode provided a rich exploration of ghost hunting as a deeply human phenomenon: a blend of skepticism, science, and above all, the search for comfort amid uncertainty and loss. Alice Vernon’s research and personal insights offer both a critical and compassionate view of why ghosts have shaped our history—and why we keep seeking them still.