History Extra Podcast | How the Cold War Made the Modern World
September 16, 2025
Host: Danny Byrd | Guest: Prof. Vladislav Zubok

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into how the Cold War shaped the modern world, challenging common narratives with insights from Vladislav Zubok, author of The World of the Cold War. The discussion moves beyond a simple East-West binary, emphasizing global complexity, the nuanced roles of ideology, the emergence of new nations, the inner collapse of the USSR, and the Cold War’s profound economic and societal legacies.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Was the World of the Cold War? (01:47–05:30)

• Childhood in the Soviet Union: Zubok recounts the ideological certainties that shaped his upbringing and the eventual disillusionment he faced as a young adult.

  “I grew up in the world of the Cold War that was essentially my Soviet world...with this strong ideological certainty...that Communism could work and we could come to that future happiness for...our own proud country and maybe for the rest of humanity.” (02:42, Zubok)

• Cold War’s Shifting Nature: The period was marked by major transitions—from post-WWII devastation and atomic anxieties, through the apocalyptic fears of the Cuban Missile Crisis, to détente and shifting underlying assumptions about the possibility of a global war.

  “But the nature of this Cold War was protean. It kept changing its basic assumptions, and more importantly, unspoken assumptions kept changing.” (05:18, Zubok)

2. Challenging the Black-and-White Narrative (05:30–08:38)

• Myth Versus Reality in Ideology: Zubok contests the simplistic view of the Cold War as a mere ideological standoff, emphasizing how ordinary people, even in highly ideological societies, often disengaged from official doctrines.

  “The last thing people thought about was ideology. You know, the more people are subject to this message from above, in particular, the less people like it.” (05:51, Zubok)

• Ideology in America and the USSR: Zubok found Americans to be even more deeply ideological—if unconsciously so—than Soviets, largely because Americans considered their worldview “natural,” not ideological.

  “When I confronted it with my own, of course, residual Soviet beliefs, I said to myself, wow, this country is ideological through the core like no one else I’ve seen before.” (07:43, Zubok)

3. The Term "Cold War": Western Creation, Soviet Rejection (08:38–12:14)

• Western Language, Soviet Suspicion: Terms like “Cold War” and “geopolitics” were taboo in the Soviet Union; they were seen as Western inventions or even reactionary.

  “When you mentioned geopolitics, people who read the literature, they would say, ah, this is this reactionary, fascist sort of ideology...” (09:08, Zubok)

• Origin of the Term: Zubok credits Walter Lippmann—rather than Orwell—for popularizing “Cold War” in the American discourse, influencing how the conflict was framed in the West.

4. The Global South: Decolonization and Frontlines (12:14–18:07)

• More Than a Two-Superpower Standoff: Many newly independent nations, especially in the Global South, became key players, seeking aid and choosing paths between the US and USSR models.

  “Those liberated states...looked at both superpowers...and began to ask, what’s the best road to modernization for us?” (13:44, Zubok)

• Case Studies: Examples include Egypt, India, Vietnam, and the American response to prevent Soviet influence, such as the 1953 coup in Iran.

  “Much of the Cold War is in reality about those countries.” (16:52, Zubok)

5. Why Did the USSR Collapse? A Reassessment (18:39–24:55)

• American Myths vs. Soviet Reality: Zubok challenges the belief that US military spending or Reagan’s policies alone caused the collapse.

  “Most of Americans simply do not want to admit it was sheer luck. Because the idea is...Reagan won the Cold War by bankrupting the Soviets...Well, as a historian, I took those two claims seriously...I didn’t find evidence that actually forced them to retreat and collapse.” (19:17, Zubok)

• Gorbachev’s Role: The transformative effect of Gorbachev, who brought a unique ideological revolution, eschewed violence, and unwittingly enabled the Soviet collapse.

  “This is all because of Gorbachev. Because otherwise…I keep telling my students, you don’t believe it, but look at North Korea...Could the Soviet Union have become like that? ...Of course.” (22:42, Zubok)

6. Beyond Superpowers: Yugoslavia, Tito, and the Non-Aligned Movement (24:55–29:10)

• Tito’s Independent Path: Yugoslav leader Tito resisted domination from both Washington and Moscow, eventually helping to form the Non-Aligned Movement.

  “As we scratch every good Stalinist, we find a good nationalist, so a good Croatian. Tito built his own Yugoslav empire and managed to antagonize pretty much everyone...” (25:13, Zubok)

• Global South Strategies: Many new states leveraged both sides for aid and avoided direct superpower confrontation.

  “It was smart choice for the part of the global south to be sort of sitting on the fence, dangling both legs in different directions and trying to milk both sides in terms of loans and economic aid.” (28:38, Zubok)

7. Redefining Capitalism (29:10–34:19)

• Cold War as Economic Crucible: The Cold War forced capitalism to reinvent itself—initially via state intervention (Keynesianism), and later through the free-market revolutions of Thatcher and Reagan as responses to crisis and competition with socialism.

  “Only towards the end of the 50s, and mostly in the 60s, the future of capitalism was being discussed. And...leading thinkers and leading economists never actually contemplated the possibility that capitalism could manage its own by itself without the huge interference and oversight of the state.” (30:52, Zubok) “That was the moment when capitalism reinvented itself again...that coincided with the terminal problems of the Soviet Union, the collapse of communism and the Soviet Union itself. And that...gave immense booster to that belief...that we discovered the recipe of eternal dynamism of humanity.” (32:58, Zubok)

8. The Post-Cold War Disillusionment in Russia (34:19–38:10)

• Reality After the "End of History": For many in Russia and the former Soviet bloc, the euphoria of the Cold War's end gave way to hardship, disillusionment, and social turmoil.

  “As I was shuttling back and forth between the ruins of the Soviet Union...and the glittering Western world that was in its sort of Fukuyama-like euphoria...I couldn’t see more the contrast between these two kind of details of the two cities...” (34:54, Zubok)

• Unmet Expectations and Backlash: The sudden collapse of the old order and lack of immediate prosperity bred disappointment and set the stage for nationalist populism.

  “People waited for a cornucopia after the end of communism...any sane observer at the time would have said there would be a backlash. There would be. It’s almost inevitable.” (37:24, Zubok)

9. Historical Analogies: Weimar Germany and the Russian 1990s (38:10–40:57)

• Parallel Traumas: Zubok echoes and historicizes the analogy between post-WWI Germany and post-Soviet Russia—great power collapse, economic chaos, and the temptation for strongman rule.

  “The more I think about it in retrospect, the more I apply this analogy with...Weimar Germany...that this country, this big, unpredictable country, might one day pull out a trick on all of us. That wouldn’t be pleasant.” (40:22, Zubok)

10. Are We in a Second Cold War? (40:57–45:51)

• A Different World Order: Zubok disagrees the world faces a “second Cold War,” noting today’s conflicts (US–China, Russia–West) lack the entrenched ideological and global fuel of the Cold War.

  “So far [the] conflict does not look as entrenched, as inexorable, as being fed by global developments and global ideologies as the first Cold War was.” (41:16, Zubok)

• From Mars to Mercury: The shift from “the Time of Mars” (war) to “the Time of Mercury” (trade and deal-making), personified by politicians like Donald Trump, marks today’s less ideological, more transactional order.

  “Mercury is his God. And that proves my point. We have a much more robust, if less idealistic, less ideological international trade system...than we ever had at the start of the Cold War…” (44:31, Zubok)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The really theological protagonist in the Cold War was American, not Soviet.” (07:54, Zubok)
• “Much of the Cold War is in reality about those countries [the Global South].” (16:52, Zubok)
• “Gorbachev was not corrupted enough by power. It’s true. It’s true, Danny. He was not corrupted enough.” (21:34, Zubok)
• “That was a smart choice. This non-aligned movement didn’t go very far, but it was smart choice…” (28:38, Zubok)
• “That gave immense booster to that belief, again highly teleological belief, that we discovered the recipe of eternal dynamism of humanity.” (33:16, Zubok)
• “We just want to cut deals and make money. That’s it.” (44:44, Zubok)
• “Capitalism is very strong.” (45:38, Zubok)

Key Timestamps

• Soviet childhood and ideological certainty: 02:42
• Nature of Cold War changes: 05:18
• Soviet perception of ‘Cold War’ & term’s Western origins: 09:08 – 11:40
• Global South, decolonization, and their agency: 12:27 – 17:45
• Why did the USSR collapse?: 18:48 – 24:55
• Yugoslavia, Tito, and Non-Aligned Movement: 25:08 – 29:10
• The reinvention of capitalism: 29:22 – 34:19
• Post-Cold War hardships in Russia: 34:41 – 38:10
• Weimar–Russia analogy: 38:18 – 40:57
• Are we in a new Cold War? The Age of Mercury: 41:11 – 45:51

Conclusion

Prof. Vladislav Zubok offers a rich, nuanced portrait of the Cold War’s legacy—one defined not only by superpower rivalry, but by decolonization, economic transformation, evolving ideologies, and the lived experiences of millions. His challenge: to look behind the familiar headlines and celebrate the “protean” nature of this world-changing conflict, while being alert to the lessons history offers for navigating present-day anxieties and shifting world orders.