How to choose a pope

Summary

History Extra Podcast: "How to Choose a Pope" Summary

Release Date: May 8, 2025
Host/Author: Immediate Media
Guest: Rebecca Rist, Professor of Medieval History at the University of Reading

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Introduction to the Papal Selection Process

The episode opens with Matt Elton introducing the topic of papal elections, prompted by the recent election of a new pope following four rounds of voting. Rebecca Rist delves into the mechanics of the papal selection, explaining the Conclave—a secluded meeting of cardinals in the Sistine Chapel where voting occurs until a two-thirds majority is achieved (02:44).

Historical Context and Evolution of the Papacy

Rist provides a backdrop of the papacy's origins, tracing the spiritual authority to St. Peter and the unbroken hierarchical lineage leading to modern popes. She emphasizes that early church leaders did not identify as popes, a term that evolved over centuries (04:20). The transformation from multiple patriarchates to Rome's dominance is highlighted, illustrating Rome's resilience amidst barbarian invasions(05:00).

The College of Cardinals and the Conclave

The discussion moves to the College of Cardinals, first evidenced in the 7th century but solidified in the 11th century as the exclusive electors of the pope. Rist recounts the establishment of the modern conclave rules by Pope Gregory X in the 13th century, prompted by protracted interregnums where cardinals endured harsh conditions to finalize a pope (06:16).

Influence of Secular Powers and Reforms

Rist explores the fluctuating influence of secular authorities on papal elections. She cites the 10th century as a period when popes were heavily influenced by German emperors and Roman aristocrats, leading to the Gregorian Reforms of the 11th century aimed at reducing secular interference (11:36). These reforms sought to address corruption, simony, and enforce clerical celibacy.

Notable Popes and Their Impact

Highlighting individual popes, Rist discusses:

• Pope Leo IX: A German pope instrumental in initiating monastic and anti-simony reforms (13:06).
• Rodrigo Borgia (Pope Alexander VI): Notorious for personal misconduct yet recognized for effective administration and support of Rome’s poor (15:31).
• Innocent III: Elected unusually young in his 30s, exemplifying the diversity in papal leadership (32:44).

The Role of Diversity in Popes

Rist addresses the historical dominance of Italian popes, noting recent efforts by Pope Francis to diversify the College of Cardinals by including members from Africa, Asia, and South America. This shift reflects the Church's recognition of its global congregation and the diminishing influence of European supremacy (22:31).

Legends and Myths: Pope Joan

Addressing the myth of Pope Joan, a legendary female pope, Rist explains that scholarly consensus dismisses her existence. However, the legend underscores medieval attitudes towards women and informs contemporary discussions on gender roles within the Church (24:34).

Papal Schism and Antipopes

Rist elucidates the Great Western Schism, where disputes led to multiple claimants to the papacy, notably the Avignon Papacy versus the Roman Papacy. This period saw the emergence of antipopes—individuals not recognized as legitimate successors of St. Peter—highlighting internal Church conflicts (19:22).

Modern Reforms in Papal Election

Modern adjustments to the conclave process include setting an upper age limit of 80 for voting cardinals and modifying the majority required to elect a pope. These reforms aim to streamline the election and reflect contemporary governance practices (31:35).

Traits of a Great Pope

When asked about ideal papal qualities, Rist identifies three key traits:

1. Tenacity: The ability to persevere through challenges and opposition (28:24).
2. Good Listener: Valuing advisors and being receptive to diverse viewpoints.
3. Charisma: Possessing personal appeal to effectively lead and inspire (28:24).

Corruption and Its Historical Context

Rist cautions against applying modern moral standards to historical figures, explaining that practices like simony were contextually different. She underscores the complexity of labeling past popes as 'good' or 'bad' without considering the societal norms of their times (30:12).

Representation in Media: Film "Conclave"

Discussing the film "Conclave," Rist acknowledges its accurate portrayal of the conclave's rituals and voting processes. However, she critiques the film's depiction of a mysterious cardinal, which she feels is unrealistic in today's age of information (34:42).

Conclusion: Importance of Papal Elections in History

Rist emphasizes the profound impact of papal elections on both the Catholic Church and broader historical currents. She highlights the interplay between spirituality and politics, and the enduring fascination with the papacy as a pivotal institution (35:57). The episode concludes with Rist advocating for the study of the papacy's history as a lens to understand the complex relationship between religion and governance.

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Notable Quotes

• Rebecca Rist (07:43):
  "They were sequestered... to concentrate their minds, because they are literally locked into this process."

• Rebecca Rist (15:42):
  "You have to think about the wider context of the society in which they operated."

• Rebecca Rist (28:24):
  "Tenacity for any pope is a really important quality. Not being put off by your enemies and managing to keep going."

Key Takeaways

• The papal election process, deeply rooted in history, has evolved to minimize secular influence and enhance the spiritual integrity of the Church’s leadership.
• Historical popes have wielded significant influence, shaping religious and political landscapes across centuries.
• Modern reforms aim to reflect the global nature of the Catholic Church, promoting diversity and adapting to contemporary governance standards.
• Legends and myths, such as Pope Joan, reveal societal attitudes and continue to influence current discussions on gender roles within the Church.
• The fascination with papal elections underscores the enduring importance of the papacy in both religious and historical contexts.

For more insights into the history of electing a new pope, visit HistoryExtra.com and search for "how were popes elected."

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Timestamp References:

• 00:01 – 01:46: Advertisements and Introductory Content (Skipped)
• Relevant content excerpts linked within the summary.

Transcript

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Welcome to the History Extra Podcast. Fascinating historical conversations from the makers of BBC History magazine. Yesterday saw the announcement that a new pope has been elected following four rounds of voting. But how does the current process of choosing a pope compare to that of previous centuries? What can the elected popes tell us about the times in which they lived? And has there ever been a female pope? Shortly before the new pope was elected, Matt Elton caught up with Rebecca Rist, professor of Medieval History at the University of Reading.

[Matt Elton]

This Easter marked the death of Pope Francis, the first Latin American leader of the Roman Catholic Church, at the age of 88, and following his funeral, the process of choosing the next pope began. Rebecca, thank you so much for being with us today to talk through this process and some of the history behind it. Before we go any further, can you walk us through how the process works?

[Rebecca Rist]

So the cardinals have gathered from all over the world in Rome in the Sistine Chapel for the Conclave. And Conclave comes from two Latin Words conclave with the key. So the idea is that the cardinals are sequestered. They're locked in to the Sistine Chapel, and there's then a balloting process by which they will choose the next pope. So on the first day, there is traditionally one ballot, and then subsequently up to four ballots a day until the Pope is chosen. And what they're trying to get is a two thirds majority.

[Matt Elton]

Could you just run us through who is involved in the conclave as it currently exists?

[Rebecca Rist]

Yes. So obviously the conclave is made up of these cardinals. Cardo comes from the Latin, meaning hinge. They're the people on whom the papal election hinges. That college of cardinals goes back to a sort of formed body to at least 1059, the 11th century. These cardinals come together, they have to be male, they have to be Catholic. They will have held senior offices in the church, either within Rome itself, you know, in the dicasteries or something, or they've been, you know, senior archbishops in wherever or bishops. And yeah, this makes up the College of Cardinals. So to become pope, you don't absolutely have to be a cardinal, but it's very likely that you will be. If you're over 80, you don't get a vote. But as say you could still be made pope, though it's unlikely.

[Matt Elton]

There might be people listening to this who have no sense historically of how long the office of Pope has existed. Can you give us a sense of some of that context?

[Rebecca Rist]

Yes. So the tradition in the Catholic Church is that spiritual powers were given to St. Peter, who's obviously one of Jesus disciples. And then the idea is that the powers he's given are the powers of being able to bind and loose, to forgive and not to forgive sins. He's given this leadership role by Jesus, according to the Gospel accounts. And then obviously there were, as it were, successors of St. Peter, people who held the church together during the early centuries. So somebody would, as it were, come to the top of the hierarchy who would be seen as the successor of St Peter and the leader of the early church. Now, at that point, those leaders of the early church would not have recognized themselves as, quote, popes. Okay. So the term pope, you know, only gradually comes into existence and then we get the idea that these popes, yeah. Are the successors of St. Peter. But it would be silly to think that those very early church leaders following on from St Peter, referred to themselves as popes, because they didn't. One just has to be a little bit careful with the history there. But nevertheless, there was an unbroken hierarchical line from St Peter onwards of leaders of the early Church. You saw the Church through those early days from being just a sect within Judaism to being a massive imperial faith. And then gradually the term popes, which pontifex means priest, starts to emerge. And of course, in the early Church, there are very important, what's known as patriarchates. So the seven patriarchates and Rome and the bishopric of Rome is just one of those. But because of, well, history, some of those patriarchates get overwhelmed and get kind of knocked out of the competition. So a really important patriarchate like Alexandria, or indeed another one, Antioch, they might have become top dog, as it were, but they were knocked out of the competition. Whereas Rome emerges, despite the barbarian invasions in the west, it emerges out of the chaos of that and is actually revitalized.

[Matt Elton]

You mentioned the College of Cardinals. What's the earliest evidence we have of that?

[Rebecca Rist]

So the College of Cardinals, we first have evidence, primary source evidence for that, as early as the seventh century. But it was a rather nebulous body, and not until the 11th century does it become sort of firmly in charge of electing the new pope. The conclave is much, is a later introduction, really gets going from the 13th century onwards during the pontificate of a pope called Gregory X. And he instituted new laws because there'd been a really long and difficult sede vacante interregnum period when the cardinals had not been able to elect a pope. And indeed they were already shut up, but they were sort of starved until they made their choice. And there was such a palaver over the election that when Gregory X was finally elected, he decided to set up the rules which form the basis of the modern conclave. So there are lots of stages in this approach with the College of Cardinals and then with the conclave itself.

[Matt Elton]

You mentioned in passing there, the idea of people being starved as part of this process, which seems quite outlandish. Can you talk us a little bit about that?

[Rebecca Rist]

Well, it was a particular instance where there'd been this serevicanti period for almost three years, two and a half plus years, and by that point there was a real crisis. So apparently their food rations, the food rations of the cardinals were reduced in order to concentrate their minds, because they.

[Matt Elton]

Are literally locked into this process. Is that right?

[Rebecca Rist]

Yes, they're sequestered, I suppose, would be the modern word for it. So you probably remember in the recent film Conclave, where all the windows shut and all the security kicks in, and that's for a serious reason. It's so there can be no outside influence on the voting process. And so the cardinals can think deeply about, you know, in trying to discern and pray and so on, about who should be the next successor of St.

[Matt Elton]

Peter and what are some of the things that happen next once a pope has been chosen?

[Rebecca Rist]

Once the pope has been chosen, he's brought out onto the balcony by the senior cardinal and he's introduced with the words habemus papam. We have a pope. And this goes back centuries, this tradition. It goes back to the very early idea of acclaiming the pope and that acclamation was done by the Roman clergy and people. And so it's persisted to this day. And so that will be the first after the white smoke, that will be the first telling to the world that there is a new pope. And then after that, there will be an inaugural Mass where the pope will preside and there will be various symbols which will show that he's the new pope. So he will be given the fisherman's ring as a sign that he is the successor of St Peter. He will also be given a woolen mantle to put around his shoulders, a woolen scarf, which is the sign that he's now a bishop. It's called the pallium in Latin. So he's now the bishop of Rome. In the period, the dye study in the medieval, the pope would also have been crowned to show that he was the ruler of the papal states. But obviously the popes no longer have the papal states. All that's left to them now is Vatican City. So that crowning went out. I think Paul VI was the last pope to be crowned. So John Paul I didn't have that, so we don't do that anymore. But that would have happened as well in the past. And then his pontificate begins.

[Matt Elton]

I wanted to talk a little bit about the people and the groups of people who get to decide who is pope, who has got to choose the pope over the centuries?

[Rebecca Rist]

So, as I mentioned earlier, in the 11th century, the college of Cardinals is supposed to be the sole elective body. There are sometimes variants and popes who are put in without them, famously like Gregory vii. But in general, from then onwards, it's the College of Cardinals that does the choosing. Now, that's because popes had been elected in a sort of bewildering number of ways before that, and they were trying to regulate the process. So before the 11th century, quite often popes are put in by German kings, by German emperors, their favorites, who they think should lead the church. Germany, because of Charlemagne, regards itself as the kind of caretaker of the papacy. So sometimes popes are put in by German king stroke emperors, sometimes they're just acclaimed and put in by the Roman populace, the Roman mob, if you like, and indeed the Roman clergy. And I've already mentioned that idea of habemus papam, which comes from that idea that it's the Roman clergy and people who get the rights to decide on their pope. So if it's the Romans who appoint their pope, as I say, it can be very much a mob thing, but it can also depend on the Roman aristocrats. So important Roman families like the Orsini, the Pierleoni families, from whom a lot of cardinals eventually will also come. But as I say, they have a huge effect, even before the establishment properly of the College of Cardinals, on who becomes pope. So you can see there are competing and different interest groups, and that's really why there's this decision under Nicholas II in 1059, at a particular synod, to ensure that it should now, from now onwards, be the College of Cardinals.

[Matt Elton]

Does it tell us something about the wider sweeps and currents of history? Who got to choose up until that point and who's got to choose subsequently?

[Rebecca Rist]

So in certain centuries, the popes have been very much at the mercy of secular powers. So just an example, a particularly bad century for the popes was the 10th century. It's often seen by historians as sort of nadir, because they're really getting pushed around, whether it's by the German Ottonian, the Otto's emperors, or by, say, aristocratic factions in rome. So the 10th century is a nice example of just how difficult it is for the popes really to assert themselves and their need to rely on secular powers to get elected. And that's really why there's such a revolution in the 11th century and a real attempt by these popes like Leo IX and Gregory VII to break away from secular power. So we talk about Gregorian reform, the Gregorian revolution, and that's really because they've had such a bad time in the 10th century. And a lot of these reformers, who are themselves monks coming out of places like Cluny and Lorraine, are very concerned that there's much too much secular power involved in their elections.

[Matt Elton]

So we can chart the dominance of the Church as a cultural force through this process.

[Rebecca Rist]

Very much so. But as I say, the amount of secular influence wanes and waxes. So some popes have a much more of a free reign to be spiritual leaders than others do.

[Matt Elton]

So let's get into some of these individuals. You've already mentioned a whole host of names. During the course of our conversation so far, are there particular moments at which a particular pope tells us something about the period?

[Rebecca Rist]

Yes. So, for example, there's a pope, Leo ix, who's a German, and he's put in by a German king in the 11th century because the king wants a good reformist pope. So the king actually gets rid of three other popes who he regards as useless, and puts in Leo ix. And. And then we get a huge amount of reform in lots of areas. The reform of monasticism in Europe, which has become very decadent and wealthy, Benedictine monasticism, but also other reforms, an attempt to deal with the issue of corruption and bribery in the church. We call that simony. So this idea of the sin of simony. So Leo IX does a lot to try and help that. There's also the very controversial issue of clerical celibacy and clerical marriage, known as nicolaism. And celibacy for the clergy is not a matter of theology. It's just been a. It's a rule that the Western Church has had for centuries. And that rule really becomes enforced by these reformer popes, including Leo ix in the 11th century. So there's an example of a lot of movement by a pope. And his reforms are carried on by Gregory vii, who I've already mentioned to you later, just to give you another example. You've got a pope like Rodrigo Borgia, Alexander Vill, very notorious because he's supposed to have had many mistresses and illegitimate children. As I say, the popes were supposed to be celibate, but certainly some of them in the 15th century almost certainly weren't. And he's accused of having very much bribed his way to being pope. He got in on the fourth ballot at the conclave, and he's supposed to have given money to various cardinals for their churches around Rome. It's very interesting because he gets this bad name as a bad pope, as it were. But however dodgy his election may or may not have been, he was actually, you know, he was a very good administrator. He did a lot to help the curia. He fed the poor of Rome. He let the Jews who'd been expelled in 1492 from the Iberian Peninsula, he let the communities into Rome. And if you go to Rome today and use in the synagogue, there's a plaque to Alexander Village. So these popes are obviously very mixed bags. You know, Eamon Duffy talks about them as saints and sinners very famously in his book. But they can have a lot of say, as you can see, on the direction and the kind of image of the pope, you know, of his image through the ages.

[Matt Elton]

To get into some more, this idea of there being perhaps good popes and bad popes, was there a point at which a particularly bad pope was elected that made this process change course, or vice versa? I suppose so.

[Rebecca Rist]

As I've already mentioned, Alexander vi, Rodrigo Borgia, who's regarded by many as a bad pope because of his private life. And obviously there's a lot of contemporaries talk about corruption. There's always a bit of a problem when we think about corruption in the church. In the past, this sin of simony that I've mentioned, money just did change hands when people became bishops and archbishops and abbots in the medieval world. And that was not necessarily seen as something really wrong in the way that it would be today with our modern sensibilities. So when we're trying to assess whether popes were bad in the past in terms of whether they were corrupt, you've got to think about the wider context of the society in which they operated. And kings and emperors expected that if they made someone a bishop or an archbishop in their territories, for example, that they would pay something to the king or the emperor. So it is really difficult for us to understand this and it makes it difficult for us to label. I think. I think we should be very careful about labeling popes good or bad. For that reason, you chose to hit.

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[Matt Elton]

Perhaps a fairer question then is, are there any particular papal elections that we've not talked about so far that you think are significant or help illustrate some wider themes?

[Rebecca Rist]

Well, if you don't mind me just going back to Gregory vii. He's elected by popular acclaim, even though by his pontificate there is a College of cardinals since 1059 who is meant to be doing the electing process. So he's this great Pope that brings in Gregorian reform and he's famous even today. And you know, he really pushed a revolutionary movement in the church and yet he himself was not quotes properly elected. So you know, he was in the 1070s. So they should have elected him through the College of Cardinals, yet they didn't. So what I'm trying to give you is a sense that these things remain much more fluid even when the rules have been established. So some people might say, oh well, he really should be an anti Pope, because by that point they knew jolly well how to elect Pope and yet he didn't follow that procedure. So if you don't mind me just bringing him in, I think he's a really interesting one from that point of view.

[Matt Elton]

And you mentioned the idea there of an antipope. Could you talk us through that?

[Rebecca Rist]

Ah, yes. So this issue of antipope. So an antipope refers to someone who the Vatican today, the Catholic Church, does not regard to have been properly appointed and not to be a true successor of Saint Peter. And in various times in the Church's history, there has been this phenomenon where you'll have two claimants, both claiming to be the rightful Pope. And that happened in the period that I very much study, the 11th and 12th century, there were no less than 14 antipopes. But they also come up later again when you get the great Western schism in late 14th and then 15th centuries, where you've got a divided allegiance with a Pope in Avignon and a pope in Rome, and both sides are calling each other antipopes. So it's a phenomenon that we've had at different periods of our history. Not been a problem so far in the 20th and 21st centuries.

[Matt Elton]

What you just alluded to there, the papal schism is another phrase that people might have heard of. Can you talk us through a little bit how that came to happen?

[Rebecca Rist]

Yes. So it's known as the Papal Schism, or the Great Schism, or the Western schism, or even the Avignon Babylon exile. So what happened was that at the end of the 13th century and moving into the 14th century, popes became very much puppets of the French kings. This was partly because they were waging political crusades against the German emperors. And so they looked to the French kings for protection, and the French kings took advantage of. And eventually it becomes such a situation and Rome becomes so difficult for the popes and they're losing out in the papal states. And so they actually decide to move to Avignon in France, and then they're there for quite a while. And of course, a lot of people are very shocked by this. I referred to the Babylonian exile because, you know, the idea is that the pope should be in Rome, right? He's meant to be the bishop of Rome, and Rome is the place of St. Peter and so on. So anyway, the popes are then in Avignon for, you know, quite a while in the 14th century. And then eventually, partly because of Catherine of Siena, who's a great female mystic, medieval mystic, she urges the popes to go back to Rome, and they do. But then there's a massive split. And this is where really the idea of the schism comes in, between those popes who are holding back in Avignon and those who are back in Rome. And so there's a great divide in Europe, a great schism, as to who is the correct population pope, the Avignon pope, or the Roman pope. And then that's where we get this idea of anti popes coming up again.

[Matt Elton]

Before we move on, are there any other groups or individuals whose influence we've not talked about so far?

[Rebecca Rist]

So we've talked about German emperors, we've talked about the College of Cardinals, which comes through eventually. We've talked about the Roman clergy and people, the Roman mob, Roman aristocrats. I mean, I've just mentioned that French Kings in the 14th century become very influential. So they're putting pressure on the College of Cardinals. By this point, there is a proper College of Cardinals, 14th century, but nevertheless, there is no doubt undue influence. But I think those are the main groups.

[Matt Elton]

Some of the commentary surrounding this current election has been around the background of the people who could be elected pope. How diverse in terms of ethnic background have popes been historically?

[Rebecca Rist]

So historically, the largest number of popes have been Italian for very obvious reasons that Obviously, Rome is in Italy and, yeah, so they've been the largest number. However, there have been lots historically of German and French popes as well. We had an English pope, Nicholas Breakspear, Adrian IV, in the 12th century. But obviously these days, the Church, the Catholic faith, and indeed Christianity more widely, is very much growing, not in the west, not in Europe, but in other parts of the world, in Africa, in South America. And so the Catholic Church is very keen that it be seen as a much more global institution, not just something that's European centric. And of course, Pope Francis has encouraged that because he made a lot of new picks for the College of Cardinals in the years before he died, and he was very careful to try and get cardinals from countries which had not really been represented before. So this is why we've got a really sort of interesting pool this time round, which of course will, you know, that's partly why everyone's so intrigued about the outcome. So, you know, we're living in a post colonial, post imperial age and I think the Catholic Church is very aware of that and it's aware of where its strength is. So it's, you know, of course, we may still get a European pope. I'm not saying that that won't happen, but it's much more likely. Obviously we've had a South American with Pope Francis. It's much more likely that they will look to Africa or Asia this time round, or if not this time round, in the future.

[Matt Elton]

We discussed earlier the idea of who gets to choose a pope, reflecting wider historical currents. Does it tell us something about wider history? Who has been elected Pope in terms of their ethnic or geographic background?

[Rebecca Rist]

Yes. So obviously the west has gone through a period of huge dominance, and so it's not surprising that popes have come from Italy and from Europe. We've had John Paul II from Poland, haven't we? We've had Benedict XVI from Germany and so on. But as I say, we're now living in a post colonial, post imperial age and so things are likely to shift.

[Matt Elton]

Has there ever been a female pope?

[Rebecca Rist]

Ah, well, there's a legend that there was a female pope, Pope Joan. So we have various accounts of, of her supposed pontificate coming from the 13th century. One account particularly, which was then disseminated, she's supposed to have lived in the 9th century and she's supposed to be a very able, talented woman who sort of rose, who disguised herself as a man and rose through the ranks and became pope and then was only, as it were, found out, because she gave Birth, supposedly during a papal ceremony. Now, as I say, in the 13th century, this was a very popular idea, which is very interesting that that's the case later. Historians of both a Protestant and a Catholic flavor, when they looked at this in the 16th century and from then onwards, have realized that it's extremely unlikely that she existed or that any of this happened. But in a sense, that doesn't matter because it tells us actually something about how people in the 13th century, in the medieval period, thought about women. And perhaps we should rethink a bit, that perhaps they were more progressive than we might imagine. But anyway, yes, no, it's. Scholars today would say that it's highly unlikely that she existed.

[Matt Elton]

Do you think our fascination with the story tells us something?

[Rebecca Rist]

Yes, I think so, because certainly at the moment there's a lot of questioning about what roles women should be playing in the church. Obviously, we've been talking today about the College of Cardinals, who are all men. Right. So you have to about talk to be in the College of Cardinals at the moment. You have to be a Catholic and you have to be a man. We know that during Pope Francis time, as pope, he's tried to get. He tried to get women into sort of higher positions in some of the dicastria and so on in Rome. There's also the issue of women deacons, which is still bubbling under the surface at the moment. And we know that some cardinals would be keener on that than others. And this is partly why we talk about things like progressive cardinals versus more conservative ones. So the issue of women deacons and whether women should be able to do much more active ministry in that way. And so I think, you know, when people look at a legend like Pope Joan, they're trying to think about ways in which they can widen the participation of women in the Catholic Church today.

[Matt Elton]

So that's an example of a papal figure who isn't real. Are there any popes whose stories we've not talked about so far you'd like to highlight as being particularly interesting or who listeners might want to find out more about?

[Rebecca Rist]

Well, I've already mentioned Rodrigo Borgia, Alexander vi, who's a bit of a favorite of mine as he's notorious for his private life. But I actually think he was quite a decent pope in terms of being a good administrator in Rome. And he was also kind of clever enough not to kind of fool around with theology. I think he probably realized that he wasn't a great theologian, so he didn't concentrate his efforts there. But he did do a lot for the poor of Rome and helping Jewish communities come into Rome. So I'd like to highlight him, but you can see from some of the characters that I've been talking about today how widely they vary. You know, some are great theologians, some are great pastoral leaders, some are less good pastoral leaders, some are great administrators. And I suppose what really fascinates me overall is that tension between the characters of the individual popes, quotes good popes or quotes, bad popes, and the office itself and the fact that whoever holds this office is representing, you know, as he's representing Christ, but He's also representing St. Peter. He's representing him, he is the Bishop of Rome. So it's a sort of massive responsibility. But obviously in different ages, you could say cynically that the Holy Spirit can only work with who it can work with. So, you know, you may not get a really nice character on the papal throne, but that doesn't mean that he won't take his responsibility as the successor of St. Peter, you know, very, very seriously.

[Matt Elton]

If you had to identify three traits that you think made for a great historical pope, what three traits would you choose?

[Rebecca Rist]

Tenacity. Because certainly my medieval popes, they were often being driven out of Rome. So a pope, I like someone like Alexander iii In the mid 12th century, he had a very long pontificate. He had to deal with no less than four anti popes while he was in office. He kept being driven out of Rome and yet he continued going. So I think tenacity for any pope is a really important quality. Not being put off by your enemies and managing to keep going. I suppose that's the case with all politicians and leaders. But yeah, so tenacity, I think a pope has got to be able to listen to his advisors. He doesn't have to be a great theologian and he probably won't be, but he needs people around him who can guide him. So he needs theologians to guide him. He also needs figures who are in tune with, with popular sentiment and the zeitgeist of the age. So he needs to be a good listener. So that would be my second one. I think he's got to have some kind of popular appeal and charisma as well. I mean, you know, particularly maybe in this day and age, because we're living in such a fast moving environment in terms of communication and getting sort of getting message across and perhaps trying to counter all sorts of other, you know, different messages. But I think, you know, even, Even in the 10th century, you know, popes had the die of the papacy. Popes had to have charism to get on with the Roman populace, you know, and so that they could acclaim him. So he's got to have that, that special quality.

[Matt Elton]

You cautioned us earlier about applying modern sensibilities to concepts like corruption. People remain fascinated, though, by the idea of skulduggery, of there being perhaps elections that went a bit awry, of there being corruption. Are there any historical episodes you'd like to highlight in this regard? And do you think our fascination with this idea tells us something about how we view the Church?

[Rebecca Rist]

Yeah. So I suppose, because these are ultimately spiritual leaders that we're interested in, that we're observing with these popes. You know, we want them to be whiter than white, because otherwise why should we allow them to have spiritual power? They're not supposed to be, you know, politicians or secular leaders who we probably don't trust. Right. So we want to be able to put our trust in spiritual leaders. But of course, in the past, popes were great princes and kings, in a sense, of the Papal states. And so they had a lot of secular power. And that made a lot of medieval people actually uncomfortable. If you look at a poet like Dante, for example, he gets very upset that the popes got so much power in the Papal states. So even in those past times, people were uneasy with the popes having a lot of temporal power. Now, today, as I say, they don't have that temporal power. They just have Vatican City. And yet, as you rightly say, we're still kind of. We want them to be holy men, we want them to be whiter than white because they have such an important spiritual office and for non Catholics as well. So lots of Christians who don't necessarily give the Pope primacy, but they still regard him as a really important figure because he's bishop of Rome and that tradition goes all the way back. So I think it's very natural that we want someone who's going to be spiritual and holy. Of course, he's got to be able to deal with power and be a good lipped diplomat. But we're still looking, obviously for that spiritual element, and that must be the most important thing for all Christians.

[Matt Elton]

Have there been any recent. And we're talking historically here. So recently could mean anything up to 100, 200 years ago. Efforts to modernize the process of selecting a pope.

[Rebecca Rist]

Yes, there were quite a number of kind of reforms put in the 20th century. So you have legislation now, which means that you can vote yourself in the conclave for being pope, which you couldn't before the 20th century, you have to have these days a 2/3 majority, which I've already mentioned, plus one after 12 days of voting. If they haven't reached a 2/3 majority, then they can go for a 50% majority plus one. So these are all things that they've introduced. Oh, and also you have to be below the age of 80 these days. And so that's really interesting because we see the cardinals all coming together in Rome at the moment, but obviously only the ones who are under 80 can vote. One over 80 can become pope, but he can't vote. So. Yeah, so that narrows down obviously the numbers who actually have real power in the conclave.

[Matt Elton]

It's interesting because there are parallels there between some of the discussions that are being had about the age of our political leaders.

[Rebecca Rist]

Indeed, yes. Because obviously I suppose you're thinking probably about Joe Biden in the States and was he too old for office? Was he not well. And should he ever have been the president? Yeah. So these are ongoing discussions. I mean, it's really interesting with popes, they've tended to be older figures in their 60s, 70s, 80s when they become pope, because if you think about it, they've got to have held important positions in the church, you know, to be in the College of Cardinals in the first place. So they're likely to have been well known bishops or archbishops or abbots of monasteries at least. And that obviously takes a long time. So you're likely that they're going to be older. And supposedly if they're older, you know, they have more wisdom as well. And it's really interesting, a pope that I study a lot and I teach a lot on in the early 13th century. Right. At the end of the 12th and to the 13th century. Innocent III, he was only in his 30s when he was elected and that was incredibly unusual in the day. You know, the popes around him in that century are sort of in their 70s and 80s and so on. And you know, in some ways it's really useful because he's a dynamic individual and he can do lots. But it's also potentially problematic because you do want to be a man to be pope for too long. You know, his capacities may fade. But also, you know, if there are certain things that are controversial about him, you know, I say maybe you don't want him in office for too. And there are issues of illness as well. So yeah, traditionally they've tended to be older. And we can see with the cardinals coming who've come together in Rome at the moment, you look at the average age of them, they're regarded as they are quite old.

[Matt Elton]

You alluded earlier to the 2024 Film Conclave, which some listeners might have seen, some may not have got round to watching. So without giving anything away, are there aspects of that film that get the history of this right? Are there things about that film that you think are misleading in terms of this history?

[Rebecca Rist]

Yeah, so it's a lovely film with some really good acting by Ralph Fiennes, Isabella Rossellini and so on. There's a lot that actually, I mean, we can laugh about it because it's a Hollywood film as well, but there's a lot that they do actually get right in terms of very careful detail with the conclave voting process and also about all the, you know, what happens to the Pope when he dies and all the details on the vestments and so on and the different rituals. So there's obviously a huge amount of work gone on behind the scenes to get all that right. Where people are going to say, well, it's not really right is the fact, well, again, I don't want to spoil the ending, but these days with modern communication, people are likely to know an awful lot about the candidates who make up the College of Cardinals, their backgrounds, their issues, their foibles. And so, you know, the plot of the film does hinge on the fact that there's this cardinal that nobody knows anything about and then all sorts of things come out about him. And I just wonder whether that's really very representative of, you know, the modern world and say in this age of mass communication. So, yeah, and people have said, yeah, the plot line is very far fetched, but, you know, in terms of the detail, so, you know, they really have got a lot right about the voting process.

[Matt Elton]

Finally then, how much has it mattered historically who has been elected Pope?

[Rebecca Rist]

It matters a lot because particularly if they have a relatively long pontificate, it can affect the direction of travel of the papacy, but also of the Catholic Church more widely. And that's why you'll see that there's a big furor in the media at the moment about, you know, are we going to have a traditional conservative Pope or are we going to have a liberal progressivist Pope? Because, you know, issues, like I mentioned women deacons earlier, you know, different cardinals have different views and what's going to happen? Are we going to get women deacons eventually, for example? So, yeah, so a Pope, his own views are very important, but also who he surrounds himself with in terms of advisors and theologians and so on. So that the sort of makeup of the papal courier who he appoints to leading positions during his time as pope. I've already mentioned Pope Francis putting some women in, in some of these leading positions in the Vatican, in the Curia. And so it is. Yeah, it can make a really big difference.

[Matt Elton]

And I suppose. Are there any thoughts you want to leave listeners with about the history of the papacy more generally these days?

[Rebecca Rist]

You know, even in the secular world, people are just interested in this phenomenon. And because the sort of the debates between Protestants and Catholics are much less virulent than they were in the past, I think Christianity has realized that kind of if it wants to survive in the modern world, it's got to kind of stick together. So, you know, in the past, there would have been a lot of sort of historians who were sort of Protestant nature who would try and sort of discredit the papacy, and there would probably be a lot of Catholic historians who kind of sort of tried to overblow it, as it were. But I think what's really nice is that certainly with my students, they're just, they don't come with those kind of preconceptions. They just come because they're really interested in the phenomenon. And so in an odd sort of way, the fact that most of them are coming from secular backgrounds, it actually, you know, it probably helps the subject in a way. And obviously there are other competing religions in the world. So I think Christians have realized we've seen this, you know, with the Anglican Church and the Catholic Church coming together so much more these days, that the important thing is to keep Christianity going. And so there's, you know, there are new ecumenical movements all the time, as I say, and even if people, for people who are not religious, papacy, it's just, I recommend it as the most fascinating thing to study because of that incredible mixture of religion and politics, secular and spiritual, that you get with it.

[Nordstrom Advertiser]

That was Rebecca Rist, professor of Medieval History at the University of Reading. For more on the history of electing a new pope, head to our website, historyextra.com and search for how were popes elected.