Narrator/Podcast Intro and Outro (2:17)

Born in the tumultuous 15th century, Margaret Beaufort, mother of Henry VII, endured personal tragedy, dynastic danger and the ever shifting fortunes of power. Yet she emerged as one of the most influential figures of late medieval England. In this episode, I spoke to historian Lauren Johnson, author of a new biography on Margaret, to delve into her remarkable life as both a mother and patron whose autonomy, determination and political acumen helped forge the Tundra dynasty.

Podcast Host Emily Brett (2:49)

Thank you for joining me today to talk all about Margaret Beaufort. Margaret was born into a really turbulent period of English history. Could you just start by setting the scene for us for her very early years and explain a little bit about her family background?

Historian Lauren Johnson (3:06)

Sure. Margaret is born into the Hundred Years War, which is kind of surprising, I think, to Lots of people, because we sort of divide up history, I think, in our heads, and we think Margaret Beaufort wars the Roses, or we think her son is Henry vii, ultimately. So Tudors, but actually, like, she is born into the very tail end of this terrible conflict between England and France that's gone on for 100 years, even by the time she's born. And she is in quite an unusual position. She comes from this Beaufort family line who are illegitimate descendants of Edward, Edward III through John of Gaunt. So they have a kind of royal claim, but it's. It's quite questionable, it must be said. And her father actually was taken hostage, taken prisoner of war during the Hundred Years War, and spends the longest time in captivity of any Englishman. So he comes back to England, he has. Margaret essentially tries to go back and make his fortune in war again, has a completely disastrous time, dies in disgrace before she's one year old. So, like we have, I think, in Margaret right from the. Almost from birth, like this complicated legacy of royal connections, family pride, but also real, like a sense of what you can lose and how quickly you can lose it.

Podcast Host Emily Brett (4:23)

Going from a turbulent background, she also has. I mean, it's quite a shocking upbringing, if we think about it in today's terms. I imagine it might be slightly different when we talk about it in the contemporary terms. She was betrothed, married and widowed, all at a very young age. What do we know, her early betrothals, marriages, I guess, especially to that of Edmund Tudor.

Historian Lauren Johnson (4:44)

And how did they affect her? I mean, you say, was it a bit more normal at the time? I don't think it was. I genuinely think that the age at which she is not married, that's normal. She's married at 12. That's the legal age for girls in the middle ages. It's 14 for boys, 12 for girls. But the fact that the marriage is consummated very quickly, that we know that Margaret is taken away from her family, with whom she's been growing up and been very protected by her mother and her half siblings. Like, they're a real tight unit. She's completely removed from them, taken to Wales, which at this time is a very different country. You know, it's a country that England has been trying to, like, force its way into for a long time, but it's still a land that's got its own language and customs. And Margaret's just sort of tagged along with her husband, who is Edmund Tudor, a man at least twice her age. We don't know his precise age, but definitely he's in his late 20s and she is 12 and immediately, pretty much, she is impregnated. Edmund goes off to fight the very beginnings of what become the wars of the Roses. He dies of the plague and she is left at 13 years old, pregnant, widowed, completely alone and isolated. And it is so difficult to imagine how traumatising that experience must have been. And I think we see the legacy of that trauma, actually, in descriptions of her life that come 50 years later. There is still an acknowledgement of how unusual and how awful that experience was for her.

Podcast Host Emily Brett (6:15)

Am I right in thinking that this was her second husband, as we would understand it, but not maybe how Margaret would understand it, if you know what I mean?

Historian Lauren Johnson (6:23)

Yeah, I think Margaret did understand this as her second husband, because I won't go into all of the insane complexities of 15th century politics that inspired these two different marriages. But her first marriage was when she was about six or seven, to a leading advisor of King Henry vi, the Lancastrian king. And that marriage had to be sort of formally ended in order for her to marry Edmund Tudor. And what's fascinating is that you would expect that kind of this whole process of who you marry as a child, especially a female child, would just sort of be dictated to you. But we know from Margaret's own later accounts that are written down by John Fisher, her confessor, many years later, that she actually felt she had a right to a say in this, because she went away for a night, she prayed, she was thinking, am I going to break this existing betrothal or marriage? Am I going to marry this other man, Edmund Tudor? And she spent the whole night thinking about it and, as she put it, had a vision from St Nicholas, a bishop saint who is a patron of children and interestingly, also the patron saint on which Henry vi, the King, had been born. So there's something interesting going on there psychologically with what she's seeing and why. But the long and short of it is Margaret herself says, yes, I will marry Edmund Tudor. I think that's really important to notice that at this point in her life, after Edmund's death, when she has only very recently given birth, we again see her take charge of her destiny in choosing to marry the person she marries after his death. Again, we see her taking charge of her destiny in these choices, and again and again she is asserting her right to have a say in her own destiny.

Podcast Host Emily Brett (8:04)

So could we say that she was considered perhaps a desirable candidate for marriage?

Historian Lauren Johnson (8:10)

Oh, yes, she's very rich. Yeah. The Beauforts are kind of a bit of an anomaly in terms of their legal status, but they are phenomenally rich. Her father had sort of screwed the government over basically in trying to get as much money as possible for his military campaign. And he'd been made a Duke, the first Duke of Somerset. He'd got £600 a year. He had vast sweeps of land across the West Country. From her mother, she has lands in the Midlands and the East. So, yeah, enormous quantities of land that she held. And of course, she is also the King's cousin at this time. He refers to her as that. So there's a royal claim, there's a massive amount of land, there's her personal wealth and the fact that she is clearly, from pretty early on, quite a sound administrator, which I know everyone will be like, boring administration, but like, this is the fundamentals of 15th century lordship, as it would be called, rather than ladyship. Like, you have to be able to get the money out of your lands, otherwise there's no point in having them. You have to be sometimes quite unscrupulous. And Margaret's mother is a really good example of this. Margaret Beecham, you have to be making sure your tenants pay your taxes when they're due, or their local tithes, their rents. You have to make sure that people using your bridges or your roads are also paying tolls, that if animals are being kept on your lands, they are also paying for the privilege. And I have spent time with some of the legal documents and the household accounts that she was dealing with, and my God, they are so complicated. You had to be like a manager and a lawyer to make sense of this stuff. So administration is not a small. It is like the essence of being able to hold onto your power and your wealth.

Podcast Host Emily Brett (9:58)

So we can see the beginnings of her being this really astute player in this world. To go back to that point that you mentioned about this rather traumatic event in her life, the birth of her only son, Henry Tudor, who we now know today as Henry vii. Can you describe this moment in Margaret's life for us?

Historian Lauren Johnson (10:20)

It's fascinating moment, I think, because we have almost no information about the nitty gritty of this moment in time. For years and years, even exactly which tower he was born in was misplaced in Pembroke Castle. And yet we know, reading back through some of Margaret's later writings or reports of what she has told people that are then written down by other people and by some of her personal artifacts, we get this sense that this was a moment when she was utterly isolated. She was probably physically as well as psychologically damaged. By the experience of childbirth. Like I've given birth in my 30s. That was hard. Talk to almost anyone who's given birth and there will be a sort of look that comes in their eyes and it's a describing experience. And we're not talking about a fully grown woman, we're talking about a 13 year old who was noted as being quite slight in general and therefore it was probably a very difficult labour. And she has none of like, as far as we know, her mother, her sisters, her neighbours, none of them are with her. And I think it's really telling that almost as soon as she can after birth, literally within two months, Like, I don't want to belabor the physical point too much, but she is still going to be suffering the physical after effects of birth at this point. You know, there's a lot going on with your body. Two months after birth, she sets off across Wales to go and arrange a marriage so that she is having a say in it and she leaves her son behind. And I think that's really interesting because Margaret's remembered as this kind of alpha mother, tiger mom type figure and actually she really isn't. Like, she gets away from that child as quickly as she can and she remarries within a year. She goes to live in Lincolnshire with her family, with her mum and her sisters and brothers. And Henry is hundreds of miles away in Wales being raised by other people, by men. So at this point in time, I would say that that baby who goes on to become someone to whom she is fiercely attached, I think is actually the source of a lot of pain and difficulty to her. And I think it took her quite a while actually to grapple with the reality of that. So, like the story of Margaret as a mother is not as straightforward as people have said.

Podcast Host Emily Brett (12:44)

So in these early years, do we see much of a relationship between Henry and Margaret at all?

Historian Lauren Johnson (12:51)

There isn't much of a relationship between Margaret and Henry in the early years, but I would say it is difficult because we don't have the records we need until a little bit later, from about the mid-1460s. So when Henry is nearly 10, we start to see notices of him being included with Margaret and her new husband, Harry Stafford, in like, local religious guilds, which would suggest, although they're not actually seeing each other, that Margaret is considering him very much as part of her family. As far as we know, the first time that she goes to visit him after leaving him is when he is 10 or 11. There are some references to her sending servants at various points, but that's kind of it. And I would say it's not unusual for children to grow up away from their parents, but it is very noticeable that Margaret herself, even though she was in a similar situation, she had no father, she was a ward of the court, she stayed with her mother and she stayed with her family. And Henry doesn't. He grows up with completely other people. Personally, I think what happens is that Margaret expected that in her marriage to Harry Stafford, she would have more children and that therefore there'd be other people to provide for and to plan for the future of. And instead she didn't have those children. And she started to realise, okay, if Henry is it, I need to put more investment into him emotionally, probably as well as administratively.

Podcast Host Emily Brett (14:13)

Are there any notable moments in Margaret's life that we should talk about?

Historian Lauren Johnson (14:17)

There is a lot to talk about within the 10 years she's not with Henry. The trouble is that, firstly, we don't have many sources, and secondly, to be honest, she's not doing much and I think she was probably quite enjoying it, like you think about the profound difficulty of her first 13, 14 years of life. I think she literally was like, I'm going home, I'm gonna see my family. I will have a husband who is not a monster and who is respectful. Like all of their. Everything that we have, document wise, suggests he's respectful, affectionate, kind to her, also slightly her social inferior. So that's probably kind of helpful. And she's just sort of getting on with having a life. What really changes is, I mean, not just for Margaret, for the whole country, is that around 1469, there start to be these ructions happening between 1469 and 1471, which drive Edward IV, the Yorkist king who's taken power off the throne, replace him with the Lancastrian king, then replace him again, bring him back. I mean, it's a period of such complete bewildering turns of fortune's wheel, it's, like, very hard to keep track. But that's the time when I think we first start to see glimmers of Margaret as a political operator. Not just a kind of, you know, a landlady, a wife, a mother. You know, she really starts to maneuver and manipulate things and try and make alliances with different people at the court. Unfortunately, she makes all the wrong alliances. She completely backs the wrong horse, which lands them in complete disaster. So when 1471 comes around and we've had a brief period of a Lancastrian king, he's been shoved off, probably murdered. Margaret is in quite A dicey situation politically, because the King rightfully has suspicions of her allegiances and her husband dies and Henry Tudor goes into exile because there's a real threat perceived to his Lancastrian bloodline at that point. So that is, I think, a moment when again, we find Margaret having had sort of an ascendancy, she's getting better and better socially, more and more powerful, and then suddenly it's like, nope, right back to the bottom of the heap. And it's yet another instance where Margaret takes control of things, like, really asserts her dominance. And it's a bit of her life, I think, that gets totally forgotten because she marries Thomas Stanley, this Lord of the Northwest, and she goes and lives in the Northwest, largely for, like, the next 10 years. And, yeah, I think it's really important that we remember this part of her life because it shows how adaptable she is. She goes into a family of, like, I mean, just myriad relations. She has stepchildren, she has brothers in law, sisters in law, nephews, nieces. Like, there are so many people she's suddenly connected to in this part of the world. It opens up a whole new realm of experience for her. And also, Thomas Stanley has quite a high status position in the Yorkist court, so it opens up that whole realm as well. And again, like we can see in her household account, she starts sleeping on, like, purple velvet cushions and her servants are better dressed and she's giving them nicer presents at Christmas. All of these little, scarcely tangible, but just about there, hints that she's gone up in the world because of this marriage. And also, I think she learns from Stanley politically, because if anyone remembers him at all, they remember him as being this person in the wars of the Roses who never picks a side. The side he picks is him. Whatever is best for him. That's it. And I think probably Margaret learns a bit from that.

Podcast Host Emily Brett (17:56)

Of course, this is going to be really helpful in the cause that she's arguably most known for in helping Henry on his path to the throne. Was this driven by a lust for power? It's traditionally been seen as such. Or was it something that was more of circumstance?

Historian Lauren Johnson (18:14)

From 1471 onwards, there's this very strange chapter, I think, in the relationship of Margaret and Henry, because Henry Tudor goes into exile in Brittany, slightly accidentally, they were aiming for France, they landed in Brittany and then has a very precarious few years for lots of complicated international political reasons. What seems, again, reading very carefully across the sources, what seems to be happening is that Margaret stays in touch with him and is Trying to either manoeuvre for his return or to keep him out of Yorkist hands. And I think initially in the 1470s, when Edward IV comes back the Yorkist king, I think Margaret is very suspicious of him and I think she's right to be suspicious of him. I think Edward IV is kind of remembered as this almost like a proto Henry viii. You know, he's this lusty, friendly, big character, but actually, in 1471, he kills by dragging out of sanctuary and having beheaded, he kills a number of Margaret's cousins. He also wipes out various other Lancastrian claimants in highly suspect ways. One of them is that one of them gets pitched overboard on a ship coming back from a war and he starts going back on promises. And this is a really big thing in the medieval mind. You can't be promising, for instance, to pardon someone and then kill them. And he does a lot of that in the 1470s. So I think Margaret, quite rightly is thinking Henry should not come back, he should not trust himself to this person. But then, after about 10 years, Edward IV is still ascendant. He has this enormous nursery of children and start to be these little whispers that maybe Margaret and Edward are planning a marriage alliance for her son Henry, and perhaps one of Edward's daughters. And this is where we start to see a little shift, I think, in Margaret's thinking, where she starts to maybe trust Edward iv, trust that the Yorkists are sticking around, obviously, and that she can get some advantage for Henry out of it. The other thing I'd say, and this gets totally forgotten, is that her mother dies in this point. She dies in 1482, Margaret's mother. And that means that all of the inheritance that Margaret's mother would pass on to Margaret is sort of stopping with her at this point, because there's no children to pass it on to. But Henry is in exile. Well, if he came back, he could have that inheritance. So Margaret and Edward make this deal that if Henry comes back, he makes peace with Edward, probably this marriage will happen. Definitely. He will be the Earl of Richmond again. He will have the inheritance from his grandma. Like, it's quite a complex Wheeler dealer situation. But what it really suggests is that Margaret has found a solution for Henry to come home. And then it all gets completely messed up, because in 1483, Edward IV dies. His son is still, I mean, not even adolescent at this point. The prospective Edward V and his brother, Richard, Duke of Gloucester, ultimately takes the throne instead. And there is complete uncertainty. There's no way Henry Tudor can come back in this situation. And I think it's really important to emphasise that, like Margaret wasn't trying to constantly manoeuvre her son onto the throne. She wasn't trying to make Henry king. What she wanted was to get him back into England as Earl of Richmond, as someone who had a future, she had a way to do it, and Richard III messed it up. And the other thing is that Richard III introduces this entire uncertainty into the political landscape. Like, I think people imagine that he maybe was popular and he wasn't like. There is very, very little to suggest that Richard III was this king that everybody welcomed with open arms. There are many praiseworthy things about Richard in lots of different ways, but I think it's really telling that Richard takes the throne, his nephews disappear to all intents and purposes, and within weeks there are rebellions against him to try and get the princes out of the Tower, or to get the other children of Edward IV out of the country, or just to get rid of Richard because people think that he has done something wrong in the manner that he takes the throne and in what he has done to the princes. And it's only then, only because of Richard's actions, that Margaret starts to maneuver for Henry to be a rebel against him.

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Historian Lauren Johnson (24:32)

I have to ask you about the.

Podcast Host Emily Brett (24:33)

Prince in the Tower, because this is something that has been attributed to Margaret. What are your thoughts on the suggestion that Margaret may have orchestrated their disappearance?

Historian Lauren Johnson (24:43)

There is absolutely no evidence that Margaret orchestrated the disappearance. The murder, I believe, of the princes in the Tower, there is none. If anyone can show me a single contemporary source that suggests it, I'm really happy to consider it. But no one at the time thought it. No one suggested the possibility of Margaret's plotting in any way for, like, 150 years. And it is essentially a product of fiction and it's, you know, a very compelling fictional story, but it's not based in history at all. The one person who had access and motivation to get rid of these children was the person who was sitting in their throne, and that was Richard, as far as I'm concerned. And as lovely as it is to think that these boys managed to escape abroad, I can't see that happening. Like, look what happened to Henry vi, he gets murdered in the Tower. There are other instances of kings who are locked up. Edward ii, Richard ii, they don't make it out. So, yeah, I just don't see any way that the boys were not dead, whether accidentally, whether by illness, whatever, whether by murder. I think they were dead by the autumn of 1483. And that, that is really what causes Richard some problems, is he can't do what Henry VII later does and be like, no, look, they're still prisoners, look, just wave at a window. Boys, you know, have a little tour around St. Paul's Cathedral and then go back in prison. They're gone, like, clearly. And, yeah, there's just no way, there's no way some random noblewoman is going to be getting into the Tower or having one of her very recognisable attendants get into the Tower. We have so little information about Margaret's activities in this period because she's very careful. But also, clearly, because she is known by this point in time, like, she is a known commodity, she is a high status person. When she is trying to be in touch with Elizabeth Woodville, the mother of the princes in the Tower, she doesn't do it through any of her own servants, she doesn't do it herself. She sends this Welsh physician, astronomer, essentially, to go and visit because that's the only person she can find as a kind of linchpin between them. So, yeah, I just don't think there's nothing to it.

Podcast Host Emily Brett (26:57)

So going back to the real history, then, from 1483, how do we get to the Battle of Bosworth? How do we get to the point when Henry is actively seen as a rival claimant to the throne?

Historian Lauren Johnson (27:09)

I think we only get to Bosworth through Margaret's efforts. And I think that's really worth emphasizing because not only does she give Henry Tudor this, let's be honest, quite muddy claim to the throne through her royal descendants, but also she is working for him to come to the throne. In order to raise an army, in order to especially cross a channel with your army and then take on a sitting ruler, you need money. And I think that's the big thing that people forget is, like, Margaret is incredibly rich. Margaret has, by this point, nearly in her 40s. She has been married for, like, 30 years. She has built up these associations across decades and across, like, vast sweeps of England and Wales with different merchants, with different, like, leading citizens, religious guilds, many religious orders, so many powerful people or other rich people from all walks of life she has made connections to. And essentially what she does is mobilize those connections in order to get money to Henry and in order to get support and information for him. The big challenge is, of course, is that a lot of this has to be construed from context. It has to be worked out from the later networks of associations of people or the later accounts or earlier accounts of, like. Understandably, there is, and I'd love it if there was, like, a letter between Margaret and Henry in which she's like, oh, by the way, could you be at Bosworth on the 22nd of August, 1485? Thank you. Love you, Mummy. Kiss, kiss. There's nothing like that between the two of them. Of course, they're really careful. And the other thing to say is that, like, although Margaret is, I am absolutely certain orchestrating this, she is having to do it under constraint because after the initial failed rebellion against Richard iii, Margaret is effectively the prisoner of her husband. We don't know exactly where she is, but I think it very likely she's up in the northwest, sort of in one of Stanley's castles, just sort of being left without her servants. We know that. We know that her lands are seized, allegedly for Stanley, but he's 10 years older than her, so, like, there's no certainty she's gonna get them back. They're started to be granted away by Richard already. So really it's those kind of like intangible connections she has to people that are the way she gets her wealth in this time. And it's also, I think, quite telling that although Thomas Stanley very famously like, equivocates until the absolute last minute at Bosworth as to who he's going to support, we know that Margaret's eldest stepson, George, he supports Henry. We know that her brother in law, William, supports Henry. We know that another couple of relations of theirs, of the Stanleys, the savages, they join him. So I don't think it's realistic to imagine that all of these people connected to Margaret support Henry just by accident. I think she is working on them to get their support.

Podcast Host Emily Brett (30:20)

Margaret's political activity during the wars of the Roses was that unusual for a woman of her time?

Historian Lauren Johnson (30:27)

It was not unusual. I think that's really important to emphasise and what I really like, tried to get into this book is that the context of this time in history is that other women, other noble women especially, are stepping into positions of authority. There's this again, it's like complex, but there's this particular legal idea at this time that if a noble man is attainted, that is, if his estate is forfeited, it's gone, it's gone to the crown. The family can't get it back. But bits of the female inheritance are kept. So wives, daughters, mothers, they are holding onto things we see through legal records. They are trying to manipulate the law in various different ways. They're creating trusts, they're doing all sorts of, like, incredibly ingenious things in order to protect their family for the next generation. And Margaret is just doing the exact same thing. Her mother does the same thing for her sons as well. So it's not unusual. This is like a time of matriarchs, I would say. I think the thing that is really interesting and that is unusual is that even though we can see Margaret is a real power behind the throne, is she is so cautious in how she is presented, especially once Henry Tudor becomes King Henry vii, like she's the King's mother. She's in a really awkward situation, actually, because she has a living husband and that doesn't normally happen. Like, usually a king has died in order for there to be a new king's mother. And instead, you know, people could very easily question her loyalties. They could suggest there's some sort of sexual malpractice. You know, is her husband more interested to in her than, you know, than her interest in her son. There's all sorts of things that could be questioned about her as a woman. And we know that most of the other powerful women of the wars of the Roses have those accusations levied at them because it's really easy for male writers to say, oh, well, you know, the Queen or this, the King's mother, she's, you know, she's an adulterer, she's clearly got other men in the King's bedroom. And it doesn't happen with Margaret. And I think that is because she is so careful in how she controls her image to the extent that in the last 10 years of her life and Henry VII's life, she becomes a vowess, which is essentially a nun, but with a living husband. I think she does that in part to kind of stave off any potential accusations against her behaviour and also to ensure that she can have real authority without the inconvenience of her husband actually dying. He just lives forever. And, like Stanley is hugely important to them because he is the power of the Northwest. His armies can change the course of history, as we've seen, so they need to keep him on side. But Margaret also needs her independence, hence this vow ess process. So, yeah, Margaret is not unusual, but I think she is exceptional in how successfully she navigates the political complexities of her time.

Podcast Host Emily Brett (33:25)

Some contemporaries, though, and perhaps later writers, and have pictured her as this perhaps overbearing, manipulative, almost Machiavellian mother character. I'm presuming you don't think that's quite a fair assessment of her.

Historian Lauren Johnson (33:40)

No, I don't think it is. I think it's misogynist. I just think it's construed from some remarks by male writers who never saw Margaret. As far as we know, there's some Spanish ambassadors who say that Margaret is, you know, oppressing the Queen, overstepping her boundaries there. And I think it then has been continued to be repeated by later male writers and more recently female writers, actually. And I don't think it is correct. I think Margaret is powerful. She is an unusually powerful woman who has a good relationship with the members of her family. And I think one of the accusations is she's this, like, mother in law from hell, you know, she's awful. She's writing household ordinances to tell her daughter in law how to give birth is not true. It has been disproven that Margaret wrote the household ordinances. It's just that someone in the 1600s wrote that she had done it. And it's like, what? There's no evidence at the time. We know that after Queen Elizabeth of York died, Margaret did write guidance for how, like mourning dress, so you know, what people wear during grieving periods at the court, but that's it. She didn't write that the Queen had to give birth in particular ways. But, yeah, I don't think Margaret is this unpleasant figure. I think she had the ability, as did Henry Tudor, to be unscrupulous and to make the most of her situation in a way that might disadvantage other people materially. But I would say actually that's pretty much the story of rich and powerful people throughout history. Firstly and definitely in the 15th century. I don't think you can say Margaret's doing it and not look at all the others. Richard III does various morally questionable activities when it comes to seizing other people's property throughout his life. So, yeah, it's. I just don't buy the notion that Margaret is some sort of dragon figure and everyone else was perfect. Yes.

Podcast Host Emily Brett (35:42)

And especially that thing of not being the dragon mother in law as well. So post Bosworth, Henry's on the throne.

Historian Lauren Johnson (35:49)

What.

Podcast Host Emily Brett (35:50)

What kind of authority did Margaret have at this time? And also what kind of role did she play in court government?

Historian Lauren Johnson (35:58)

That is such a good question. So after Bosworth, I think what we need to remember when it comes to Margaret and Henry VII is that Henry Tudor arrives in the kingdom with like very few relatives. Any relatives he has, it's basically his uncle, Jasper Tudor, who's been in exile for years, and then everyone else is related to him through Margaret. He has various exiles who have been following him who've, you know, who've fought for him now, who've proven their loyalty. But in terms of, like having a court in place immediately, like, he just doesn't really have it. And he has to also navigate the fact that there are lots of people who fought for Richard iii, lots of people whose allegiance was to York or to Elizabeth of York, who he marries in order to kind of, I mean, really as a PR exercise, to be like, look, the wars of the Roses are over, hooray. Although I do think they like each other. Side note, separate issue. And so what Henry needs is people who have long term experience of the court in England, of politics in England. He looks around like, who can he actually trust? I mean, Margaret Beaufort is among the leading people that he can go to. And what is clear, I think, in the very limited amount of writing that we have between the two of them, is that she has this position to him where he completely trusts her. I mean, she genuinely might be the only person he completely trusts, maybe Jasper Tudor as well. I think everyone else, there is a little question mark next to their name in Henry's mind. And I think Margaret proves again and again and again, in good times and bad, before he's king and after he's king, that she is capable, she is trustworthy and she just knows her stuff. And I think she enables that transition for Henry, quite possibly in concert with Elizabeth of York, who, although she's much younger, has grown up as a princess in England, has her own experiences to bring. And, of course, the frustrating thing is that women's power at this time is sometimes called soft power, which is a bit of a gross term anyway, but, like, it doesn't leave quite the same traces. I mean, literally, we have ambassadorial reports, for instance, where we know Margaret's there, there's nothing's said, we don't know what she's saying to anyone. So I think that Margaret is hugely important in ensuring that Henry holds onto the kingdom and takes the right steps at the right times. So, yeah, I think she's pivotal to the Tudors managing to stay as a ruling dynasty.

Podcast Host Emily Brett (38:29)

I'm very curious. We so often talk about Margaret in her relationship to Henry. Do you think it's fair that we often characterise her in that way by that particular relationship?

Historian Lauren Johnson (38:42)

I think in Margaret's later life, it makes sense to see her in that relationship with Henry. But I also do think that sometimes we forget that she had an independent life, like she had a considerable life, where she didn't see him until he was, like, 28. And then even once Henry is ruling. We know that Margaret lives with the court for a period of time, but she does then actually remove herself and she goes and becomes this kind of power in the Midlands, like, almost a regent, to be honest, in the Midlands, at Collyweston palace, which is on the route directly from kind of London north up into the various different distant territories. And it's a land where she has her own family connections and has done for many years. So, like, it makes sense for her to be the authority there. But she also, we know from some letters at the time, is stamping her authority in places where she actually doesn't have any official power and she's doing it as the King's mother, effectively. So I think it is fair to some degree to see her in relation to Henry. I think also, though, you have to put in the other relationship she has. And again, it's something that, like her household accounts demonstrate, is just the number of particularly women who have kind of been forgotten about who she has lifelong multi generation relationships with. And we can find that in the fact that, like when she receives sad news, like when her grandson Arthur dies, for instance, we can see she receives visits and she receives presents and she receives servants with clear messages, although the letters themselves don't survive. But from those friends she has these networks of people. At Collie Western as well. She almost like virtually sets up a sanctuary for women fleeing their terrible husbands. There's a number of them at various points. So she has a much broader life, I think, than maybe we remember.

Podcast Host Emily Brett (40:35)

So I guess we should maybe speak about her patronage of arts, education, religious houses. Could you tell us a little bit about these and about this particular aspect of her life?

Historian Lauren Johnson (40:45)

Oh, yeah, because there's just the minor matter that she's like the first English woman to appear in print for her own writings. Yeah, there's just that. Just, you know, brush that off her shoulder. She translates these various French religious texts which are printed in English. She's disseminating different texts. She is using this new, like completely new technology of printing in order to get her message out, not just politically but religiously, educationally. She founds two different Cambridge colleges she patronises. Yeah, many different people, choirs and singing are interested to her. Incidentally, the Tudor's very big on actors. They are among the first rulers to kind of fund their own players. Admittedly they're players who also work as carpenters or things like that, but they are doing it. And I think that's again, a bit of Margaret's like almost her humanity that's been forgotten about. We can't suggest that Margaret is, you know, exactly a feminist in the way we'd understand it, that she's wanting things to be equal in the way we'd understand it because, like, she's a medieval aristocrat. They just don't think that way. But what is clear is that she recognizes her privilege in certain areas, like the fact she can go and use a monastery library and take out their books and read these words of wisdom which most other people can't because they can't read for a start, or they can't afford to go and have a manuscript or go into the library. So she enables that knowledge to be disseminated through preaching in English, through publishing different works. Like she really does seem to be concerned to spread knowledge in a way that I think actually is quite unusual for her time.

Podcast Host Emily Brett (42:32)

Tell us about Margaret's later years and her death.

Historian Lauren Johnson (42:35)

So I said before that Margaret moves away from court. She kind of has this independent life at Collie Weston. That changes at the point that I think probably around the time Queen Elizabeth of York dies and Prince Arthur, the heir to the Tudor dynasty, dies. Margaret then, I think, starts to be a bit worried about how things are going at court, and especially I think worried about Henry in his mental and physical health. And she moves back into, not into the court, actually. She's always sort of careful to have her own separate household and things, but she is clearly much more involved in the lives of Henry and his children at that point. And she becomes this kind of. Obviously she's not taking on a mothering role. I think she always knows she's, you know, she's nothing like their mother, but she is very specifically their grandmother. And we can see that, like she's, she takes care to spend time with the children and to praise when they do things well and to give them presents. You know, I think she definitely sort of invests more back into her family again in that phase of life at the same time as she is continuing to sort of think about her legacy in terms of the educational foundations that she sets up in terms of the schools she establishes as well. So I think towards the end of Margaret's life, she's really concerned to ensure that Henry VII stays on the throne as long as he can and that when he dies, everything is in place for a safe accession of his son. And I think it's really important to remember that in 1509, when Henry VII dies, there has not been the peaceful accession of a adult son to his father for a hundred years. Like it is beyond the memory of anyone at that time. So it is a really dangerous moment for the dynasty. And I think Margaret works with the different factions who are sort of manoeuvring around, playing the Stanley card, basically kind of seeming to be friendly with all of them so that she can make sure that her family emerge triumphant. And again, it really is, I think, a testament to her and the alliances she makes that when Henry vii dies, his 17 year old son becomes Henry VIII immediately and starts his reign in this, like, triumphant acclaim. And there's all these like poems written about how it's a golden age is being born again in Henry viii. And I think that that is really testament to Margaret's efforts. And it is also like incredibly apt that Margaret attends his coronation and dies after the coronation feast. You could not write a sort of more perfect ending for her in some ways. She eats a baby swan, she changes her will she dies. There we go. The age of Henry VIII is born.

Podcast Host Emily Brett (45:27)

It's really like a chapter closes with that. I suppose we should come on to talk finally about Margaret's legacy. We've spoken about how views of her have changed over time from contemporary sources up to the modern day. But if you had to sum up Margaret Beaufort as a mother, a political strategist, a patron, what would you say Margaret's legacy is?

Historian Lauren Johnson (45:51)

I think Margaret's biggest legacy is the Tudors. I do not think the Tudors would exist if not for Margaret Beaufort. And I'm not sure they would have, you know, made it to the next generation even if Margaret had not been there. And also I think the legacy is there in her educational interest, in the fact that schools that she founded, colleges that she founded, continue to operate for centuries. I mean, her two colleges in Cambridge are still going. She was a patron of learning in that way. I think the aspect of her that kind of got muddied was the political angle. And it is because, I mean, even up to this, the modern day, I would say people are not comfortable with women in power. And I think, unfortunately, she is kind of almost been punished for being a powerful, successful woman throughout the centuries that have passed. And I think it's completely unjust. I think she was an admirable, extraordinary, innovative person and like the ultimate survivor of her period of time.

Narrator/Podcast Intro and Outro (47:00)

That was historian and author Lauren Johnson speaking to me. Emily Brett, check out Lauren's latest book, Margaret Beaufort, survivor, rebel, kingmaker, to delve even further into the life of this medieval mother of the Tudor dynasty.

Podcast Host Emily Brett (47:16)

Thanks for listening to today's Life of the Week. Be sure to join us again next.

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Time to learn about another fascinating figure from the past.

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