Podcast Summary: "Myspace and MTV: How Will Future Historians Study the 21st Century?"
History Extra Podcast
Date: October 29, 2025
Host: Matt Elton
Guests: Jane Winters (Professor of Digital Humanities, University of London), John Wills (Professor in Film and Media, University of Kent)
Episode Overview
In this episode, Matt Elton speaks with historians Jane Winters and John Wills about the challenges and opportunities future historians will face when studying the 21st century. The discussion centers on the explosion of digital records—from social media to video games—and the implications for the historical record, preservation, technological obsolescence, inclusivity, and the reliability of rapidly proliferating sources. The episode provides deep insights into how future narratives may be shaped by today's data and how historians must adapt their methods to make sense of the overwhelming scale and variety of records.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. New Kinds of Records and Sources
[03:43 – 08:20]
-
Digital vs. Analog Evolution:
- Jane Winters observed that what we consider primary sources now are often familiar forms (like newspapers) that have transitioned to digital, alongside wholly new formats such as blogs, tweets, memes, and multimedia content.
- “An issue of The Guardian newspaper that was published in print today will not have the same information in it as the online version… there'll be multimedia material. You'll have online comments appearing, which you would have only ever had letters to the editor previously."
(Jane Winters – 03:43)
- “An issue of The Guardian newspaper that was published in print today will not have the same information in it as the online version… there'll be multimedia material. You'll have online comments appearing, which you would have only ever had letters to the editor previously."
- John Wills expanded on how film, video games, and digital fandom assemble a vast, unstructured archive of audience reactions and experiences.
- "Doing that research is...vast because you’re having to deal with memes, gifs, digital content of both fandom, the everyday audience. You can access actor responses…”
(John Wills – 05:04)
- "Doing that research is...vast because you’re having to deal with memes, gifs, digital content of both fandom, the everyday audience. You can access actor responses…”
- Jane Winters observed that what we consider primary sources now are often familiar forms (like newspapers) that have transitioned to digital, alongside wholly new formats such as blogs, tweets, memes, and multimedia content.
-
Multiplicity of Formats:
- Jane Winters highlighted the web as an unstructured collection of text, images, sounds, emojis, memes, and more—posing challenges for meaningful research.
- “A web archive... will have all of this material in there in a very unstructured way.”
(Jane Winters – 06:34)
- “A web archive... will have all of this material in there in a very unstructured way.”
- Jane Winters highlighted the web as an unstructured collection of text, images, sounds, emojis, memes, and more—posing challenges for meaningful research.
2. Video Games as Historical Sources
[08:42 – 11:24]
- Interaction With the Past:
- John Wills explained that video games, once considered ephemeral, now offer a window into cultural views and can provide both experiences and reflections of history.
- “Video games can be almost this introduction to the past in a way that maybe older television programs or film would have done. They can also build history into the games…”
(John Wills – 09:11)
- “Video games can be almost this introduction to the past in a way that maybe older television programs or film would have done. They can also build history into the games…”
- John Wills explained that video games, once considered ephemeral, now offer a window into cultural views and can provide both experiences and reflections of history.
- Scholarly Lag:
- There has been a delay in academia fully integrating video games into the set of primary sources.
3. Social Media and Ordinary Voices
[11:24 – 13:33]
- Inclusion of Diverse Narratives:
- Jane Winters pointed out the historical novelty of numerous ordinary people ending up in archives via social media.
- “Most ordinary people end up in an archive when you encounter the state at some point...But now anybody with access to the Internet, it’s so easy to create content of all kinds...”“That ability to tell your own story, I think.”
(Jane Winters – 11:31, 12:57)
- “Most ordinary people end up in an archive when you encounter the state at some point...But now anybody with access to the Internet, it’s so easy to create content of all kinds...”“That ability to tell your own story, I think.”
- John Wills raised the challenge for scholars to ensure true diversity by actively including marginalized voices and being aware of new forms of exclusion.
- Jane Winters pointed out the historical novelty of numerous ordinary people ending up in archives via social media.
4. Digital Divide and Global Gaps
[13:33 – 14:49]
- Persistent Inequity:
- Despite the global spread of digital platforms, significant regions (e.g., Africa, China during global events like COVID-19) are still underrepresented in major digital archives.
- “It skews to the global north in terms of the story about that pandemic, which, as we all know, was a global pandemic.”
(Jane Winters – 14:16)
- “It skews to the global north in terms of the story about that pandemic, which, as we all know, was a global pandemic.”
- Despite the global spread of digital platforms, significant regions (e.g., Africa, China during global events like COVID-19) are still underrepresented in major digital archives.
5. Technological Obsolescence and Material Culture
[15:16 – 19:15]
- Short Lifespan of Media:
- John Wills illustrated the issues with preserving video games (hardware malfunctions, reliance on emulation, and lack of physical records for digital-only releases).
- “...A console that sells well might only be publicly available for, say, ten years. Those consoles will then degrade, or they might not be designed to even last that ten years...”
(John Wills – 15:16)
- “...A console that sells well might only be publicly available for, say, ten years. Those consoles will then degrade, or they might not be designed to even last that ten years...”
- John Wills illustrated the issues with preserving video games (hardware malfunctions, reliance on emulation, and lack of physical records for digital-only releases).
- Archival Responses:
- Jane Winters described how memory institutions now preserve not just files but the entire context—hardware, software, metadata—to enable future “replay” of digital content.
- “We need to preserve the material culture of these born-digital records...”
(Jane Winters – 17:23)
- “We need to preserve the material culture of these born-digital records...”
- Jane Winters described how memory institutions now preserve not just files but the entire context—hardware, software, metadata—to enable future “replay” of digital content.
- Context Collapse:
- Digital records are easily decontextualized; tracking origins after an account deletion or server loss is sometimes impossible.
- “Context collapse is something that gets talked about in relation to social media... it’s quite hard to trace it back to where it started, particularly if that crucial piece of information has gone.”
(Jane Winters – 19:29)
- “Context collapse is something that gets talked about in relation to social media... it’s quite hard to trace it back to where it started, particularly if that crucial piece of information has gone.”
- Digital records are easily decontextualized; tracking origins after an account deletion or server loss is sometimes impossible.
6. Entertainment Archives: Commercial Interests and Loss
[21:45 – 24:44]
- Deliberate Demolition and Paywalls:
- John Wills addressed the problem of content disappearing due to conscious deletion (for paywall or control purposes) or lack of archival responsibility from private companies (e.g., MTV, Myspace).
- “MTV is an incredible resource for people... so there’s a paywall issue and there’s a control issue.”
(John Wills – 22:10) - “MySpace... lost 12 years worth of photos, video and music because of a faulty server migration. So that just went.”
(Jane Winters – 23:56)
- “MTV is an incredible resource for people... so there’s a paywall issue and there’s a control issue.”
- John Wills addressed the problem of content disappearing due to conscious deletion (for paywall or control purposes) or lack of archival responsibility from private companies (e.g., MTV, Myspace).
7. Data Deluge: Scope and Navigation
[25:04 – 28:52]
- Archival Overwhelm:
- Jane Winters referenced the “tidal wave of digital material” already overwhelming archivists and historians.
- "[The National Archives] have this wonderful description in there of a tidal wave of digital material…”
(Jane Winters – 25:04)
- "[The National Archives] have this wonderful description in there of a tidal wave of digital material…”
- Most digital collections aren’t catalogued; keyword search offers no guidance on importance or representativeness.
- “You will find whatever you’re looking for, but you will have no sense of how important or representative it is because there’s just so much material there.”
(Jane Winters – 25:04)
- “You will find whatever you’re looking for, but you will have no sense of how important or representative it is because there’s just so much material there.”
- Jane Winters referenced the “tidal wave of digital material” already overwhelming archivists and historians.
- Algorithmic Filtering:
- John Wills warned that the first presentation of historical info may now be shaped by search engines or AI—with risks of bias, error, or distortion.
- “Our platforms...are in a sense potentially misleading us as scholars, or they’re potentially pushing the most common citation...”
(John Wills – 27:27)
- “Our platforms...are in a sense potentially misleading us as scholars, or they’re potentially pushing the most common citation...”
- John Wills warned that the first presentation of historical info may now be shaped by search engines or AI—with risks of bias, error, or distortion.
8. The Problem of Trust and the Role of AI
[28:52 – 31:56]
- Proliferation of Disinformation:
- The scale and algorithmic curation of digital content make assessing reliability an increasing challenge compared to the “fraudulent charters” of the past:
- “It’s always been an issue that there’s misinformation in archives, but the scale of it is, I think, different now… particular narratives are being created algorithmically that we’re not aware of behind the scenes.”
(Jane Winters – 29:09)
- “It’s always been an issue that there’s misinformation in archives, but the scale of it is, I think, different now… particular narratives are being created algorithmically that we’re not aware of behind the scenes.”
- The scale and algorithmic curation of digital content make assessing reliability an increasing challenge compared to the “fraudulent charters” of the past:
- Archiving Algorithms:
- Jane Winters stressed that preserving the functioning of algorithms themselves (“algorithmic heritage”) will be vital to understanding digital history.
- “If we don’t know how the algorithms worked, we won’t be able to see what their effect was on the material that we want to study.”
(Jane Winters – 31:36)
- “If we don’t know how the algorithms worked, we won’t be able to see what their effect was on the material that we want to study.”
- Jane Winters stressed that preserving the functioning of algorithms themselves (“algorithmic heritage”) will be vital to understanding digital history.
9. Comparing Scarcity and Overabundance
[31:56 – 35:48]
- Different Challenges, Same Dilemma:
- Whereas ancient and medieval history contends with scarcity and partiality, modern digital historians face too much unstructured information, with both extremes risking distortion.
- “Both the volume and the scarcity distort the picture, I think.”
(Jane Winters – 34:08)
- “Both the volume and the scarcity distort the picture, I think.”
- Whereas ancient and medieval history contends with scarcity and partiality, modern digital historians face too much unstructured information, with both extremes risking distortion.
- Ephemerality and Loss:
- Even now, valuable digital sources may disappear unexpectedly—making ephemerality a modern analogue to the accidents of historic survival.
- “One of my fears is about ephemerality and that things will go or deliberately be deleted.”
(John Wills – 34:08) - “There’s a lack of fixity in some digital archives…”
(Jane Winters – 35:19)
- “One of my fears is about ephemerality and that things will go or deliberately be deleted.”
- Even now, valuable digital sources may disappear unexpectedly—making ephemerality a modern analogue to the accidents of historic survival.
10. Opportunities of Digital Abundance
[35:48 – 38:18]
- Holistic and Rich Reconstructions:
- John Wills likened digital traces created today to “time capsules” that might enable immersive future histories, with more detail than previously possible.
- “We’re every day kind of creating these kinds of capsules that historians of the future could use… create your own picture of that time period with quite a lot of depth and realism to it.”
(John Wills – 36:05)
- “We’re every day kind of creating these kinds of capsules that historians of the future could use… create your own picture of that time period with quite a lot of depth and realism to it.”
- Jane Winters agreed, emphasizing how emerging technologies—like topic modeling and automated cataloguing—will help historians access qualitative richness.
- “Technology is developing to help us with that. Things like topic modeling software which allows you to draw out key themes in a huge collection…”
(Jane Winters – 37:16)
- “Technology is developing to help us with that. Things like topic modeling software which allows you to draw out key themes in a huge collection…”
- John Wills likened digital traces created today to “time capsules” that might enable immersive future histories, with more detail than previously possible.
11. Copyright and Access Barriers
[38:18 – 41:05]
- Restriction by Legislation and Ownership:
- Legal deposit laws, copyright confusion, and control by digital platforms all limit what historians can access or publish—even with public materials.
- “It’s not clear whether you can post a screenshot of an archived website in a book or on a website yourself. In theory you’re supposed to ask permission from everybody, but you can’t do that…”
(Jane Winters – 38:28)
- “It’s not clear whether you can post a screenshot of an archived website in a book or on a website yourself. In theory you’re supposed to ask permission from everybody, but you can’t do that…”
- The "free" ethos of the internet is an illusion—platforms exercise increasing legal and technical control.
- Legal deposit laws, copyright confusion, and control by digital platforms all limit what historians can access or publish—even with public materials.
12. Looking to the Future: What Stories Will Historians Tell?
[41:05 – End]
- Enduring Partiality:
- Jane Winters argued that all histories, past or future, will be partial—shaped by what survives, what’s preserved, and what’s accessible.
- “We’ve only ever been able to tell partial stories, and that will be true for future historians, as it is for current historians.”
(Jane Winters – 41:48)
- “We’ve only ever been able to tell partial stories, and that will be true for future historians, as it is for current historians.”
- Jane Winters argued that all histories, past or future, will be partial—shaped by what survives, what’s preserved, and what’s accessible.
- Hope for Preservation Through Community:
- Despite daunting challenges, the guests expressed confidence that ongoing efforts in national libraries, archives, and academic communities will ensure valuable records are sustained for future research.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
“Context collapse is something that gets talked about in relation to social media... it’s not very long before something is completely decontextualized and reused and it’s quite hard to trace it back to where it started.”
— Jane Winters [19:29] -
“On one level, there’s a repetitive thing there, an ongoing thing of how to save things, not to lose them, how to protect our history and our culture. But there’s definitely... an issue here over control and paywall. I think it’s coming to the fore.”
— John Wills [22:10] -
“If you’re working on an event, you could look at the sound, the video, personal files. You could in a sense create your own picture of that time period with quite a lot of depth and realism to it. And that is a huge opportunity for the future...”
— John Wills [36:05] -
“We’ve only ever been able to tell partial stories, and that will be true for future historians, as it is for current historians. How partial those stories will be, I think, is the challenge for us now...”
— Jane Winters [41:48]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 03:43: How digital formats differ from analog records
- 05:04: The scope of digital content: Barbenheimer and fandom research
- 09:11: Video games as historical sources and their role in public history
- 11:31: Social media and the inclusion of new voices in historical records
- 14:16: Missing geographies in digital archiving (COVID-19 example)
- 15:16: Technological obsolescence and the struggle to preserve media
- 19:29: The fragility of digital context and “context collapse”
- 22:10: Corporate control and digital demolition in entertainment archives (MTV, Myspace)
- 25:04: The tidal wave of digital data and the challenge of meaningful analysis
- 27:27: Dangers of platform- and algorithm-shaped histories
- 29:09: Misinformation and the need for contextual clues in the digital era
- 31:36: Importance of archiving algorithms themselves
- 34:08: Digital ephemerality and loss compared to earlier eras’ scarcity
- 36:05: New potentials for immersive, data-rich histories
- 38:28: The access and copyright conundrum for future historians
- 41:48: Why partial stories will always dominate—past, present, or future
Conclusion
This episode vividly explores how the 21st century’s explosion of digital content—unprecedented in both scale and type—presents opportunities for richer, more inclusive history, yet simultaneously brings immense challenges of preservation, access, context, and trust. Jane Winters and John Wills’ dialogue encourages both critical rigor and optimism, envisioning a future where, with the right tools and collaboration, historians will construct ever more nuanced narratives from our era’s data deluge.