History Extra Podcast – "Nationalism: Everything You Wanted to Know"

Date: August 23, 2025
Host: Danny Bird (History Extra)
Guest: Dr. John Hutchinson (historian, author of The Dynamics of Cultural Nations as Zones of Conflict)

Overview of Episode Theme

In this "Everything You Wanted to Know" edition of History Extra, Danny Bird sits down with Dr. John Hutchinson, a leading scholar on nationalism, to address listener questions spanning the origins, evolution, and impact of nationalism. The conversation explores definitions, distinctions from patriotism, historical roots, the roles of myth and religion, intersections with political ideologies, and nationalism’s lingering influence in a rapidly changing, interconnected world.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Defining Nationalism (01:46–03:00)

• Dr. Hutchinson frames nationalism as "perhaps the most powerful ideology in the modern world", characterized by:
  • The political freedom of the nation
  • The sanctity of a territorial homeland
  • Cultural distinctiveness/uniqueness

"Nationalism is seen as an ideology ... that states that the world is divided into nations and that members of the nation seek three things in particular: political freedom, defense of a territorial homeland, and cultural distinctiveness."
— Dr. John Hutchinson (01:55)

• The distinction between nationalist ideology (emerging 18th century) vs. national sentiment (traced much earlier, medieval roots).

2. Nationalism vs. Patriotism (03:00–03:45)

• Patriotism: Loyalty to the state
• Nationalism: Loyalty to the national community
  • In practice, the boundary is often blurred; defensive nationalism can shift to an expansive, even aggressive form.

"...patriotism basically is a loyalty to the state, whereas nationalism is to a national community. But ... it's very difficult in practice to distinguish between the two."
— Dr. John Hutchinson (03:00)

3. Origins and Pre-Modern Forms of Nationalism (03:45–05:42)

• Listener questions ask: How far back can nationalism be traced? Did medieval Scots feel 'Scottishness'?
• Medieval examples: The Bible's division of people into nations; 14th-century Scotland’s Declaration of Arbroath as an early expression of national identity.

"In medieval Scotland, there is an expression of a kind of nationalism."
— Dr. John Hutchinson (05:30)

• Modern nationalism focuses more on citizenship.

4. Cultural vs. Political Nationalism (05:42–07:40)

• Dr. Hutchinson distinguishes:
  • Political Nationalism: Focus on equal state participation (e.g., 19th-century Irish Catholics seeking the vote).
  • Cultural Nationalism: Emphasis on unique customs, history, language.
  • Tensions and examples: Gandhi vs. Nehru in India; both aimed for independence, but with different visions of India’s future.

"There's a notion that the nation is more than a state. It's a moral community with its own distinctive customs..."
— Dr. John Hutchinson (06:40)

5. Top-Down vs. Bottom-Up Nationalism (07:40–09:48)

• Both elite-driven ("invention of tradition") and grassroots forms exist.
• Some movements are imposed by intellectual elites; others come from marginalized groups (e.g., Catalans, Basques).
• Quote of note:

"After Italian independence, there's a famous saying: 'We have achieved Italy, now we have to make Italians.'"
— Dr. John Hutchinson (09:18)

6. Mythology and the "Golden Age" (09:48–11:59)

• Myths and selective history play a central role:
  • Not always pure fabrication but often exaggerated.
  • The "Golden Age" narrative is used to inspire national renewal.

"One scholar defined the nation as a people united by a common mistake about their history."
— Dr. John Hutchinson (09:56)

• Example: Indian nationalists evoked the "Aryan age" to overwrite critiques of traditional Hinduism and modernize the nation.

7. Religion and National Identity (11:59–13:33)

• Religion often becomes entwined with national myths (e.g., Poland as the "crucified nation").
• Protestant literacy and the Biblical model of Israel popularized national ideals as sacred.

"In Poland, there's the idea of Poland as the crucified nation because it was torn apart by different empires."
— Dr. John Hutchinson (12:54)

8. Nationalism & Socialist Thought (13:33–15:57)

• Marxists originally saw nationalism as a rival, but they supported anti-colonial nationalism.
• Lenin recognized the need to work with national sentiment (USSR’s republic structure as a compromise).

"Many Marxists did see nationalism as a kind of rival ideology. But Marxists did make an exception for colonial peoples ..."
— Dr. John Hutchinson (13:49)

9. Is Nationalism Inherently Right-Wing? (15:57–16:59)

• Nationalism spans political ideologies: liberal, socialist, conservative.
• 19th-century British nationalism advanced free trade and individualism.

"Nationalism is a promiscuous ideology. I think all the major political ideologies seem to converge on nationalism at one point."
— Dr. John Hutchinson (16:36)

10. Exclusion and Minority Groups (16:59–19:46)

• Nationalism's logic often draws "us versus them" boundaries; can lead to exclusion—especially in crisis (e.g., WWI Britain banning Beethoven).
• Sometimes, however, national interests broaden criteria for inclusion (e.g., post-WWII Australia encouraging non-British/Irish immigration).

"...the slogan was 'populate or perish.' ... So it very much depends on where people see the interests of the nation."
— Dr. John Hutchinson (18:43)

11. Internal Conflict as Nation-Building (20:16–22:51)

• Internal divides (ethnic, religious, linguistic) foster debates over authentic national identity.
• Paradoxically, shared traumas (civil wars) and unifying figures (Joan of Arc in France) can strengthen national cohesion.

"...there's never a single history of a nation. There are always different versions. And often there have been civil wars or major conflicts ..."
— Dr. John Hutchinson (20:33)

12. Crises Breed Nationalism (22:51–25:15)

• Nationalism is often most powerful during crises—wars, social upheavals, economic distress, transformations.
• Times of threat (real or perceived) galvanize national sentiment.

"Nationalism is an ideology of crisis or sense of difference. Most of the time, people just exist quite placidly."
— Dr. John Hutchinson (23:12)

13. Remembrance, War Memorials & Sacralization (25:15–27:59)

• National identity is sacralized through remembrance; fallen soldiers become martyrs akin to religious figures.
• Memorials, rituals, and wartime narratives provide both caution ("never again") and celebration of national virtues.

"...the nation is seen as a force that's eternal and that by being part of a nation and contributing to that nation, you itself achieve a kind of immortality."
— Dr. John Hutchinson (26:30)

14. Empires Collapse, Nations Multiply (27:59–32:11)

• The fall of multi-ethnic empires (Ottoman, Habsburg, Soviet) resulted in intense nationalist conflict, population transfers, and sometimes violent purges (e.g., Armenian genocide).
• "Balkanization" describes fragmentation driven by nationalist rivalries, often with outside powers exacerbating divides.

"The word balkanization has also been used by African nationalists ... to deter foreign countries trying to instigate nationalism among their minorities."
— Dr. John Hutchinson (31:02)

15. The Rise of Nations in an Interconnected World (32:11–35:14)

• Collapse of empires (post–WWI, WW2, Soviet Union) led to a "mass production of nation states."
• Despite globalization, national identity still dominates political organization.

"The world of nation states is quite recent ... But ... there never is a kind of global identity."
— Dr. John Hutchinson (32:30)

• Globalization often perceived as "Americanization," prompting nationalist backlash.

16. 21st Century Nationalism: Nostalgia, Crisis, and Change (35:14–39:41)

• Emergent nationalisms today are "wrapped in nostalgia" and "reactive": responding to shifting economic power, religious revival, migration, and decline of post-WWII Western order.
• Populist movements express confusion, disorder, and competing claims to authenticity.

"There's confusion in nationalism and competing nationalisms. ... Everything seems in flux."
— Dr. John Hutchinson (39:17)

17. Is Looking Back Always Nostalgic? (37:52–39:41)

• While nostalgia is present, the past is invoked not just out of longing, but as a search for lost stability—and a possible recipe for future renewal.
• However, contemporary nationalist movements struggle to offer convincing models for renewal.

18. The Future: Lessons and Hope for Nationalism (39:41–42:24)

• Nationalism is not inherently destructive—history shows it can foster cooperation as well as conflict.
• International institutions (EU, UN) succeeded by balancing national identity with collective aims.
• Dr. Hutchinson calls for "enlightened self-interest" and rebuilt cooperative frameworks.

"Nationalism doesn't necessarily lead to conflict ... Nation states can cooperate together."
— Dr. John Hutchinson (40:47)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

(format: [timestamp] Speaker: Quote)

• [01:55] Dr. Hutchinson: "Nationalism is seen as ... the most powerful ideology in the modern world."
• [03:00] Dr. Hutchinson: "...patriotism basically is a loyalty to the state, whereas nationalism is to a national community."
• [05:30] Dr. Hutchinson: "In medieval Scotland, there is an expression of a kind of nationalism."
• [09:56] Dr. Hutchinson: "One scholar defined the nation as a people united by a common mistake about their history."
• [16:36] Dr. Hutchinson: "Nationalism is a promiscuous ideology. I think all the major political ideologies seem to converge on nationalism at one point."
• [18:43] Dr. Hutchinson: "...the slogan was 'populate or perish.'"
• [23:12] Dr. Hutchinson: "Nationalism is an ideology of crisis or sense of difference. Most of the time, people just exist quite placidly."
• [26:30] Dr. Hutchinson: "...the nation is seen as a force that's eternal ... you achieve a kind of immortality [by contributing to it]."
• [32:30] Dr. Hutchinson: "The world of nation states is quite recent ... But ... there never is a kind of global identity."
• [40:47] Dr. Hutchinson: "Nationalism doesn't necessarily lead to conflict ... Nation states can cooperate together."

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment Topic | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------------------------|----------------| | Opening & Defining Nationalism | 01:46–03:00 | | Nationalism vs. Patriotism | 03:00–03:45 | | Historical Roots & Medieval Nationalism | 03:45–05:42 | | Cultural vs. Political Nationalism | 05:42–07:40 | | Top-Down vs. Bottom-Up Nationalism | 07:40–09:48 | | Mythology in Nationalism | 09:48–11:59 | | Religion's Role | 11:59–13:33 | | Nationalism and Socialism | 13:33–15:57 | | Right- vs. Left-Wing Nationalism | 15:57–16:59 | | Minorities and Exclusion | 16:59–19:46 | | Internal Division as Unifier | 20:16–22:51 | | Nationhood and Crisis | 22:51–25:15 | | National Identity & Remembrance | 25:15–27:59 | | Collapse of Empires & Balkanization | 27:59–32:11 | | Multiplication of Nations & Globalization | 32:11–35:14 | | 21st Century Nationalism & Uses of History | 35:14–39:41 | | The Future of Nationalism: Lessons & Hopes | 39:41–42:24 |

Conclusion

This comprehensive conversation with Dr. John Hutchinson demonstrates that nationalism is complex, multifaceted, and ever-evolving. Far from being monolithically right-wing or purely exclusionary, nationalism can unite or divide, modernize or mythologize, empower or oppress—depending on context. While crisis often gives it force, nationalism’s direction is neither predestined nor inherently destructive. As the conversation closes, Dr. Hutchinson calls for renewed international cooperation and critical, pragmatic engagement with this enduring force in world affairs.