Camilla Townsend (2:26)

When Pocahontas was born, she would have been given a different name. The word Pocahontas in her language, in effect, it means little mischievous one. It's the kind of name a young child would earn because of their behavior, because of the way that they were. And that was very typical in the native world that people would earn their own names, so to speak. Later, when she was an adult, she revealed that she had another name, Matoka, which we think means one that Kindles, one that shines, although that is subject to debate. In other words, like other indigenous women of the time, she had an adult name. It may have been a private name, it may have been a name that everyone in her world knew, but the English people did not know it until she chose to reveal it to them later. She took the name Rebecca when she was baptized as a Christian.

Emily Griffith (3:16)

And would it be fair to say that Pocahontas life is actually quite elusive? Despite her iconic stature in Anglo American history?

Camilla Townsend (3:25)

In some ways, Pocahontas is. Life is rather elusive. We don't have any diaries or letters that she wrote. On the other hand, compared to most indigenous women, we know a great deal about her because many different English people wrote about her because she played an important role in the early history of Jamestown. Also, much of what she did, what we know of about her through these English sources fits perfectly with what we would expect of a well educated indigenous high born. So the puzzle pieces do fit together rather well, actually, even though we don't have diaries and letters, I don't really think that it's too mysterious who she was, what she did and why she did it.

Emily Griffith (4:13)

Obviously we've spoken about her name meaning mischievous or I guess, playful. Do we get any other clues to her personality?

Camilla Townsend (4:21)

Oh, yes, plenty. All the English men who wrote about her when she was a little girl visiting the fort mentioned that she was playful, that she did summ and cartwheels. Later, when she was married to an Englishman, he wrote about native people in general, but undoubtedly speaking largely about her. The one that he was living with, that she or that they, these indigenous people that he knew so well was very merry and ran joyfully, as he put it, headlong into the arms of the devil. Meaning that she was doing what she wished to do, that she had a personality of her own, that she was not bowing her head and accepting all of his edicts about Christian practice, etc. So we do. And there are other clues too that we can get into as we go along. That she had quite a strong personality and also that people liked her, that she enjoyed life and they liked her.

Emily Griffith (5:14)

So can you tell us about her early years? Do we know much about these?

Camilla Townsend (5:17)

We don't know many details about Pocahontas early life, but we do know something. She would have been born in the late 1590s. And she was definitely the daughter of Powhatan, who was the paramount chief over about 20 tribes in the Virginia Tidewater region. But she was not the daughter of his primary wife. So an indigenous man in that time and place had many women, many wives, including some who were prisoners of war, some who had been given to him, some who had chosen to come, as well as primary wives through whom the heirs would be born. She, we know, was not the daughter of an important woman. We have theories about which tribe her mother had belonged to, but we can't know for certain. It is certainly true though, that when she was born poet and her father was at war against several local tribes. So it is highly likely that the mother was a prisoner of war. In any event, even though she was the daughter of the high chief of Powhatan, she herself was not considered to be terribly important in the tribe. The daughter of the king, yes, but not by an important wife. So she would not have been someone who was ever going to inherit power, for instance. And actually, like all children, including royal children, she would have worked. Everybody worked. It was a hunting, gathering society combined with some part time farming. And the men hunted and the women did the part time farming and everybody participated. So she may have been the daughter of a king, but she was out there planting corn, harvesting it, chasing the birds away from the bean plants, et cetera. This we know.

Emily Griffith (6:54)

You said that she also visited the forts as well.

Camilla Townsend (6:57)

Yes. So after the English came, they went through, as I'm sure you and your listeners know, some very hard times. Eventually, John Smith was sent up the river, so to speak, to try to trade for corn. And he was captured by the Powhatan Indians. And while he was a prisoner, he got to know her. We know from some records that he kept in a notebook, in effect, that she was the one assigned to teach him some of their language. And he tried to teach her some English. Eventually he goes back to Jamestown and at that point some mutual visiting begins, if you will, some trading, et cetera. And Pocahontas played a role there. That was probably partly because of her personality, partly because. Because she had learned some of the strangers language. But also it was very typical for indigenous rulers, chiefs and high chiefs to send their daughters or little sisters on peace missions because it was obvious if you send a daughter or a little sister that you're not trying to get a war started. So there were cultural reasons for her presence there too, as well as probably individual ones. She had a talent for getting along.

Emily Griffith (8:03)

With people, so she almost acted A little bit like a diplomatic envoy of sorts of.

Camilla Townsend (8:08)

Absolutely. There's one Native American woman scholar who has written a book about her claiming that she was in effect, a diplomat and a spy. And in effect she really was. Even though that would not have been in a purposeful or spoken of way. She. It certainly was true about her life.

Emily Griffith (8:25)

I think her relationship with John Smith is probably one of the most famous parts of her legend. Could you tell us about the whole rescue story?

Camilla Townsend (8:36)

Right. So while John Smith was a prisoner of her people, he would have been questioned, or they would have tried to question him through signs and some signals and also through words. That's, I'm sure, why Pocahontas was assigned to try to teach him some of their words and learn some of his. However, it probably didn't go much beyond that. It was many years later, when most of the principals, including Pocahontas herself, were dead, that John Smith for the first time told the story that her father had wanted to kill him and had been planning to put his brains down on a big rock. And this young, half naked, beautiful Indian princess came running up to save him. Now, besides the fact that he didn't tell this story until years later, we have good reason to doubt. First of all, John Smith was in the habit in his writings of claiming that half naked, very young women had saved his life. And I'm told by friends who study medieval literature that that was considered a very sexy motif. That is, if you were a guy, you really wanted a girl who would be will to sacrifice her life for you, that was the sign of real romance. So we have no reason to think that this story was anything other than that. Besides, it would have been counter to their culture. It would have made no sense for Poetin to threaten to kill a prisoner, but then not do so. If you're questioning the prisoner for information, that's just not something that they did. And it certainly would have been against their culture for him to cease and desist in any activity he had publicly decided upon because his spoiled little daughter asked it of him. That is just not the way their world worked at all. So we have no reason to believe this. On the other hand, some scholars have posited that there could have been some sort of an adoption ceremony that would have been within the realm of probability. And it could be that Pocahontas even played a role in such an adoption ceremony. But at this point we're theorizing, almost making things up, sort of what could have would have happened, so to speak. We have no Real evidence for that either.

Emily Griffith (10:40)

Later on, there are also stories about a supposed love affair between Pocahontas and John Smith. What can we say about these?

Camilla Townsend (10:48)

That was definitely made up long after the fact. She was only 8 or 9 when she met John Smith, and he returned to England before she was 10. Now, I will say this later. John Smith was accused by other Englishmen of having plotted to marry her so that he could gain power in Virginia as a potentate, as though he would then become royal, a commander over the indigenous because of this marriage. And he said, he testified first of all, he said, quite rightly, that's not how you get power over there, because power passes through the women's line. He was right about that. So no Englishman was going to get power by marrying a chief's daughter. He would have had to marry the chief's sister's daughter in order to gain power. And he was aware of that. So that's sort of as a supposition, as a game plan. It was a non starter. But then he added, so maybe in my cups I did paw her a bit. I'm mangling the quotation. But he's acknowledging that maybe when he was drunk, he grabbed her. It could be that she was beginning to develop and that he had tastes that are horrendous by our modern standards. It sounds like that was the case, given that he said this. I mean, people must have seen him do this since he acknowledged it. So we could say that he sexually molested or abused her. But that's a far cry from saying that she felt fell in love with him. Later, when she went to Europe, already married to another Englishman, she publicly berated him for having lied to her people and caused a lot of trouble. Again, nothing that would indicate that she loved him or missed him or anything like that. It was other people, English people years later, and certainly John Smith himself years later, who contributed to that idea. I think really that story has lasted because it has been so pleasant in America for my ancestors, for American, white Americans to think that this Indian girl loved our English forefather, that she adored him. But there's no evidence for such a love story.

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Emily Griffith (14:57)

We return to Pocahontas, perhaps as a more diplomatic figure, then what changed in her life as the Anglo Powhatan relationship deteriorated?

Camilla Townsend (15:08)

Well, we think that she had been married while the English were off doing their thing at Jamestown for several years, a warrior named Kocoum, who apparently had died or they had separated and divorced. That was easy in her culture because he disappears from the picture. Then in 1613, when she was still quite young, just a young adolescent, maybe 15 years old, she was kidnapped by a Samuel Argyll on the Potomac River. The English ship captains had been given instructions, actually by the Virginia Company and the Crown to see about kidnapping some key intermediaries, because the strategy had work quite well for the Spaniards further south. So he kidnapped her and she was imprisoned in the English colony, first to Jamestown and then probably at Henrico upriver. So for these reasons, because the English had been looking for prisoners and because she, Pocahontas, was the daughter of a high Chief and traveled through the region that her father ruled. She was kidnapped on the Potomac and ended up a prisoner in the English settlement. It was not an enviable situation.

Emily Griffith (16:15)

How traumatic or transformative was this moment for her?

Camilla Townsend (16:19)

I have had native scholars say to me that it is possible, possible that the moment was not as traumatic as we might think. In the sense that the mutual kidnapping of women was part of indigenous warfare. And high born young women, the sisters and daughters of chiefs, knew that this could happen to them and that they would then marry with the enemy and become part of a peacemaking process. It actually afforded them some power. So that's one way of interpreting the situation. On the other hand, Pocahontas herself had been used to living at Werowocomoco on one of the innermost rivers, well protected from the forays of enemies. She would not have been one of the women who thought it was likely that she would be grabbed. Perhaps chosen for foreign marriage. Yes. But grabbed and taken, probably not. And then to have this happen at the hands of these men who spoke a language nobody in their world understood, who were hairy and wore metal armor that shattered arrows that flew at them, I think it would have been terrifying, frankly, and perhaps galling too, because you have to remember she was taken first to Jamestown, where she had once gone as a visitor and a translator of sorts. And now as a prisoner, she was transferred, we think, up to Henrico, where there were some other women colonists. So she wasn't the only young girl imprisoned among many men for long, but as long as that lasted, that would have been pretty horrific, in my opinion.

Emily Griffith (17:48)

Do we know about anything that happened during her time in captivity?

Camilla Townsend (17:52)

We have every reason to think that on a surface level, on a technical level, shall we say, she was treated well. That is, we have no reason to think that she was brutalized or abused, because she herself never alluded to anything like that. And in fact, after her eventual marriage to an Englishman, she seemed quite content. At least her husband saw her as being, as we said, laughing and merry and doing her own thing. There is a story out there on the Internet that some Mattapanai people have a cultural memory of her having been repeatedly raped. But that story, when you trace it back, seems to have been invented by somebody who actually himself was found guilty of fraud. He was a medical doctor who cheated insurance companies. So I believe that that story was made up from whole cloth in order to sell some books. Bluntly, all of the evidence that we have, the written evidence, would indicate that the English had her, so that she could serve as an intermediary. And they treated her by their definitions, well, so that she would be an intermediary. However, that doesn't mean she was their patsy or that they were successful in convincing her to do whatever they wanted. They wanted her, for example, to convert to Christianity, and for a whole year she would not. They taught her some English and then eventually took her upriver into the midst of a battle that they were having with the local Indians so that she could serve as an intermediary right there in front of the indigenous people with the proverbial knife to her throat, so to speak. And it was actually at that point that one of the English colonists, John Rolfe, wrote a letter to the leader of the colony, Thomas Dale, and suggested that he marry her. He said that he loved her. He said, I promise you, it's not lost. We have this letter. So that's why we know what he said. It was very clear from the letter that he was totally smitten with her. The indigenous people then sent some messengers to her father asking about this marriage, and he agreed rapidly. Again, we must remember that this was very normal for indigenous chiefs to marry their daughters with the enemy. And it was only then, after they had agreed to the marriage, at that point, she also consented to become a Christian. So it's very clear to me that it wasn't that she'd been overwhelmed by the beauty of the Christian doctrine, but that, on the contrary, it was part of the deal. As an indigenous person, when you marry with the enemy, you also accept their gods. It was a polytheistic society. There were many gods, like ancient Greece. You could come from Athens and be devoted to Athena, but then if you marry someone from Sparta, you change your primary allegiance in a religious sense. So it's pretty clear to me that that's what happened. Three days later, she became a Christian. And I think it was three days after that she married John Rolfe in a Christian ceremony and took the name Rebecca. So she was acting in a way that was very appropriate to an indigenous princess, if you will, or highborn, noble girl. She was helping her people by marrying with the enemy.

Emily Griffith (20:49)

Is it possible to get close to her feelings on this marriage, or is it more just a question of duty?

Camilla Townsend (20:56)

We can't know for sure. As I mentioned, we don't have any diaries written in her hand. On the other hand, there is some evidence that she at least liked John Rolfe. We must remember that she came from a society that didn't have a sense of romantic love in the sense of it's not that men and women never fell in love or never had such feelings in her world, but there was no sense that your husband was supposed to be someone that you had fallen in love with, quote, unquote, that you had those feelings for. It would have been enough in her world to like the man you were going to marry. That was what one aimed for. And in fact, marriages could be dissolved if you stopped liking the person that you were living with. But they didn't dissolve a marriage because they were, quote, unquote, no longer in love. That would have seemed insane to them because everybody knows that those feelings don't last forever. They didn't imagine that a marriage partnership should necessarily be founded on that emotion. Now, why do I say we have reason to think that she did at least like him? John Rolfe's letter gives every indication of being written by someone who knew her and who had continued to like her and to fall more and more in love with her. I think it's hard for any man, then or now, to fall more and more in love with someone who doesn't like you. Unless you're a sadist, of course. Then of course, that man can continue to feel whatever he feels. But we have every reason to think John Rolfe was a normal man, and he clearly had gone from being interested in her to being desperately desirous of marrying her. So it seems to me quite likely that she wasn't just a wooden girl staring with loathing back at him, but that she must have liked him too. And then that. And there's further evidence that I touched on before, in that after he was married, when he was describing life with Indians, so to speak, in this book that he wrote, really more of a pamphlet for use back in England in their fundraising efforts, he described these Indians that he knew, as I said, you know, joyfully running into the hands of the devil, doing what they wanted to do, continuing to be themselves. That also doesn't sound like someone who's profoundly unhappy. Lastly, she agreed to go to London, and there she did serve as a very effective sort of walking advertisement. People were interested in her and liked her too. Well, if someone, in effect, has a knife to their throat, if someone is being forced or is incredibly miserable, they are not going to be interested in going to London. And once there, they're not going to be an effective advertisement for the Virginia Company. You can't take a hostage and have her laugh and say charming things. It doesn't work that way. I mean, perhaps in some Hollywood movies it does, but it does. So we have every reason to think that she had some positive feelings, at least towards Rolf. And as I said, in her world, that would have been enough to base a marriage on. Now, what she felt by the end, a few years later, once she got a sense of the power and the might of England, and what she hoped for or regretted later in her life, we cannot know for sure. But at least at first, it seems likely that she was pleased to do this. At the very least, it gave her an important role amongst her father's people.

Emily Griffith (24:16)

Now, I'd like to touch on their journey to England in a moment, but this is a marriage that produces a son. Could you tell us more about what married life was like for Pocahontas and for Rolf?

Camilla Townsend (24:28)

That is probably the hardest question you've asked so far. There are, as I'm sure you know, historians who write about family life in the early 17th century, but of course, they're writing about life among people from the British Isles and sometimes later in the colonies. But it's very hard to know how things would have been worked out between an English husband and an indigenous wife. We do know, though, that there were indigenous people living with them, that is, some of her friends or relatives. We can't be sure. We're working with them. That's probably because John Wolf was trying to, and was indeed starting, in effect, a tobacco plantation. He had brought some seeds from South America. And the people, the indigenous people of Virginia, knew very well how to grow tobacco, although their species was a bit different, but they knew how to grow and dry tobacco. So it makes sense that there were people living there on the farm with them, not only to keep her company, but so that they could effectively grow this tobacco. We know that she became pregnant almost immediately because within two years of the marriage, she had a toddler named Thomas. So beyond that, I don't think I dare to go. I would be making things up, and that I don't want to do.

Emily Griffith (25:38)

When Pocahontas married Rolf, I imagine there was some changes. Could you perhaps tell us about some of these?

Camilla Townsend (25:45)

There probably were some changes in what she wore. Many of us imagine Pocahontas based on the engraving that was made of her when she was in London, where you see the great Elizabethan style collar. I mean, I realized it was after the reign of Elizabeth, but the collars were still there, and she probably did wear such outfits when she went to be presented at court or sat for the drawing. It would most likely be the case that the Virginia Company would have outfitted her to look like a fine lady because they wanted people to understand her to be a princess. And the marriage with her was a success and a symbol of the connections with native peoples. On the other hand, we have no reason to believe that changes of that nature would have happened when she was on the farm with John Rolfe. It's very possible that she continued to wear deerskin leggings and a sort of a smock like clothing that would have been finely embroidered because it was very practical. It's also possible that they began to wear linen, you know, woven. How should we put it? Not underwear exactly, but the blouse that was worn over the petticoat, because that too is very practical. Wearing woven clothing, cloth that has been woven by others is the heart of the industrial revolution. There's a reason why people gravitated towards it. It makes life much easier to be able to buy a bolt of cloth and make clothing. So it's very possible that it began right away that she and her indigenous friends who were living there on the farm with her began to enjoy the use of fabric because it's so much, much less labor intensive than treating a deer skin, as much as you have to treat it before you can make clothing out of it. My guess would be that she did a little bit of both, that she wore some partially indigenous style and partially simple English style clothing. And I say that because that was what most people did, most indigenous people did when they were living in or on the outskirts of European settlements. And that continued for over a century before they mostly moved away from the east coast. Of course, as I said, once she was in London and needed to impress the fine people, they threw a fancy collar around her, her neck and a brocade dress. Right. But I don't think that that would have been what she wore in her real life, so to speak, on the farm.

Emily Griffith (27:55)

So tell us more about this journey to England. What exactly was the intention behind it?

Camilla Townsend (28:02)

The Virginia Company was struggling, of course. They had hoped, the English had hoped that they would find colonies that were similar to the ones that the Spaniards had found with densely populated native settlements who could be forced to work almost like serfs, or that they would find gold, or that they would at find a kind of bucolic climate like in the Caribbean. They were finding none of these things. And in fact, there had been low intensity warfare between the colonists and the indigenous until Pocahontas marriage with John Rolfe. So the investors in the Virginia Company had some explaining to do. They wanted to allay people's fears. They wanted People to adventure or invest their persons, meaning come as colonists, as settlers. And they wanted them to adventure or invest their capital to help strengthen the colony. And so it was very important that they bring a sort of success story, a sort of proof that all was well over there. Proof that the Indians are now getting along with us. Here's one married to an Englishman, proof that the Indians were willing to become Christians. Here's one who has been baptized as Rebecca. And she, Pocahontas, was willing to play that role. I think it was probably important to her and to her people that she attempt to establish a more permanent peace. Because she went to England with some high ranking advisors of her father's. One named Uttamatamakan, who had a priestly role as. As a political role in the indigenous world.

Emily Griffith (29:26)

I know we've said this briefly. It's difficult to get into the mind of Pocahontas because we don't have any surviving sources specifically from her. But do we have any sense at all of how Pocahontas herself felt about England, about London, about her role in this?

Camilla Townsend (29:45)

A little bit. When she met with John Smith in front of numerous people, she grew very angry and talked about how you Englishmen do lie much. I think that's pretty close to a direct quotation. Yeah, she was passionately angry. So there were certainly some negative feelings. We also know that they removed from the Bel Sauvage Inn where they had been staying, to an estate in the countryside. That also tends to imply that she was not happy in the city. It could also have been simply that they couldn't get over all the colds and other germs that they were being exposed to. The other thing is that relatively recently, a letter exchange came to light in which a proselytizing organization is asking to give money to John Rolfe and his wife to help them with Christianizing the Indians. And he answers that he and his wife will accept this money as long as it is understood to be largely a thank you gift for baptisms that have already occurred and not a payment ahead of time for more baptisms. So it's almost as though she's saying through her husband, you can't pay me enough money to enforce or my people, or insist that my people become Christian. If they want to, fine, we can keep talking about it. But it's as close as we have to a statement from her saying there have to be limits to what you English expect us to do in the way of cultural change.

Emily Griffith (31:16)

How was Pocahontas then treated and perceived? I Think she was presented at court, wasn't she?

Camilla Townsend (31:22)

You know, it's rather sad. I mean, in some ways, people were very excited, of course. I mean, it did help the Virginia Company. On the other hand, there were snide comments made. John Chamberlain, a famous diarist, talked about how eager she must be to stay here. I forget the exact words. The comment was very condescending and entirely without evidence, but has been quoted over and over again for generations since. As though it was sort of obvious that she would have been absolutely delighted with London. When, in fact, the bits of evidence that we have, as I've just said, would indicate that she was not. She also met with her whole cohort, met with the Bishop of London, and he reported on some sort of frustrating interactions with them about the nature of Christianity and religion. It's also true that they had an artist named Simone van der Pas come to the rooms. This is when they were still at the Belle Sauvage Inn. Come to the room and take her lightnings, take a sketch. They could produce an engraving that they could sell as a sort of a memento that would help raise funds, but also advertise the Virginia Company was perfect for their purposes. On this engraving, it says first in Latin, pocahontas, daughter of the king, Powhatan. But then it says in English, pocahontas, daughter of Powhatan, the king of Tsenacomoko. They've written out, with all the letters they can muster in our Alphabet, a representation of her country's name in their Algonkian language. Well, obviously her husband. There's no Englishman in the party who would have known that word, cared about that word, been able to spell it anything like that. Clearly this information was coming from her. So she remained proud of who she was. Even though English diarists were making snide comments about her. One of them actually said, she is no fair lady with her dark complexion. I mean, there's overt racism involved too, as one might expect.

Emily Griffith (33:22)

And she was considered the daughter of a king, so a princess.

Camilla Townsend (33:25)

Yes. It was on that basis that she was taken everywhere and, you know, presented at court and spoke to the Bishop of London, et cetera. She was understood to be an important personage. I think there was still condescension towards her, even as such. But at least they could justify her being taken to meet royalty on grounds that she herself was royal.

Emily Griffith (33:45)

Pocahontas actually died at quite a young age, didn't she? Could we tell us a little bit about that moment?

Camilla Townsend (33:52)

Yes, it was very sad. So she had Been in England a year about when they decided to go back rather quickly, actually catching the tide, so to speak, and trying to make it out while they still could sail before it was too cold. I suspect that this was because she and her party were already struggling with lung ailments. But at Gravesend, they decided they had to stop. They docked and she was taken to an inn where she died. Other members of her party were also very sick and continue to be sick. The records that we have do not tell us whether it was a lung ailment or something like dysentery. But the fact that members of her party continue to be sick weeks later tells us that it was a lung ailment, some kind of a flu. So she dies and is buried there in the Gravesend Church. She would have been 21, about. We don't know where her body is. At some point there were renovations and the, you know, parking lots were dug up and things like this, but she was buried there. Her people stayed about for a few days to weeks, were not sure, trying to figure out what to do. Her little son was orphaned. She may still have been nursing, for all that we know. At length, John Rolfe decides that because even the indigenous women who were his, the toddler's maids or governesses, so to speak, nannies, were also s and wanted to return home but were very sick, that he would send the child to his brother. So little Thomas was sent off to be raised in England by John Rolfe's English brother. And he stayed there in England until he was 21, and then he came to Virginia. But John Rolfe and the other surviving indigenous people did get back on the boat and go back to the Americas, where Powhatan, her father, is reported to have said by an Englishman that he was deeply grieved at his daughter's death, but that twas enough for him that her child liveth. He was delighted to learn that Thomas was still alive. That is in keeping with poet and indigenous culture. An individual dies, but what you want is the family line and the tribal line to continue. So he may well really have said.

Emily Griffith (35:48)

That her name has gone into myth and into legend. I'd like to talk a little bit about her legacy, if you don't mind. What have subsequent representations done for her public image, for her historic image?

Camilla Townsend (36:02)

At first, very little was said about her except by descendants. Some colonists and some travelers mentioned her story as told to them by descendants. But in the very early Republic, after the Revolution, it was actually an English traveler, John Davis, who heard this story again. From a relative. And it was he, as a foreigner, who saw immediately the power of this tale in the context of the then young United States. So he published a version of it that was very popular. And he then made money for years on this. He expanded it from a little story to a longer story to finally to a full supposed and the history of her life, embellishing and imagining as he went along. And of course, encouraging everybody to think that there had been a love affair. This story was beloved by Americans. It went into Noah Webster's textbook. He didn't just do a dictionary. He also did a little simple textbook that was used in early United States public schools. So it became a kind of permanent part of American lore or knowledge. This idea that there had been this Indian princess who loved our men and loved England and loved John Smith. That notion grew and grew and grew really right up to the 1930s, 90s. I was raised with it in the 60s and 70s. In the 1990s, though, people began to realize. Americans began to realize that this was a bit nutty to imagine that these were her real feelings. And Native Americans who had been empowered by the political movements of the 70s and early 80s also began to talk about how ridiculous this was. So when the Disney company made their movie in the middle of the 1990s, they made some adjustments. They made Pokemon Pocahontas very proud of her people. And they made her speak very honestly about not wanting to go to England and become English. And that's all to the good. And I think for many young Native girls on reservations, it's been good for them to see one of their own as the star, as the princess of a popular movie. On the other hand, what that film and what our lore continues to do is whitewash her story. It's not conceived of as the tragedy or the anger inducing story that it really is. But, you know, it's still. Even when it's done in a slightly more politically correct style, we still like to think of it over here in this country as a love story. And it really was not.

Emily Griffith (38:20)

We still have quite a romanticized image. What does perhaps a more accurate understanding of Pocahontas change about how we think about American history more widely?

Camilla Townsend (38:34)

I think that's a great question. Ironically, I think her real story is more interesting, more exciting, more fun, more compelling than the myth. It shows how hard Native American people tried to defend their own interests, how much power they were up against, and therefore how difficult their situation was. And yet how they responded with dignity and savvy and feistiness. As often as possible, which means that the sort of early conception of the country is not a story of Christianization and enlightenment, but nor is it entirely a story of abuse and horror. It's a story of struggle, of different people and different groups of people coming together and trying to figure out what the future was going to be. And some of those people, in this case, namely the English, had the advantage of power. But that doesn't make the story any less of a struggle or any less of a dynamic and changing and moving story of the American experience. So I really wish that more people knew about the real Pocahontas for her sake and her descendants sake, but also for all of our sakes, because it shows us more what history is really all about.

Emily Griffith (39:49)

And as a final question to you, if listeners could take away one thing from the life of Pocahontas, what would you like it to be?

Camilla Townsend (39:57)

I think I would want them to know how brave she was. We think she was a silly girl, you know, when we know very little about her, we assume she was a silly girl who wanted to go to England, something like that. But all the facts indicate that, in fact, she was tough as nails as a 15 year old. And right up through the age of 21, she did everything she could to help her people. She did everything she could to get to know another culture. She braved ocean voyages. She braved new worlds over in England. She handled herself there. Nobody, even the most condescending commentator, said anything other than that she behaved with dignity and aplomb. And then she faced mortality at age 21. And from all the testimony that we have, handled that with strength and guts. So I wish people understood that she, like many another Native American woman in that time period, and I guess one could say many other humans then, handled great difficulties in very admirable ways.

Emily Griffith (Narrator/Interviewer) (40:59)

That was Camilla Townsend speaking to me. Emily Griffith, Camilla is professor of history at Race Rutgers University and the author of Pocahontas and the Powhatan Dilemma, as well as numerous other books on the early history of Native Americans in the United States and the history of Latin America.