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Quaker history: everything you wanted to know
00:45:13
Ben Pink Dandelion answers listener questions on the history of the Quaker religious movement
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- [00:01]
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- [01:57]
Host
Welcome to the History Extra podcast Fascination Historical conversations from the makers of BBC History Magazine. From radical rabble rousers to trusted bankers and businessmen to conscientious objectors, the Quakers have been viewed in many different ways down the centuries. Their non conformist origins and religious principles have long seen them set apart from the rest of society. But the Quakers story touches on some central themes in British and American history. In order to answer the key questions on Quaker history for today's Everything youg Wanted to Know episode, I spoke to Ben Pink, Dandelion, program Leader for Research at Woodbrook Quaker Study Centre and Professor of Quaker Studies at the University of Birmingham. Thank you so much for joining me, Ben. It's lovely to have you? On the History Extra podcast, and in today's everything you wanted to know episode, we're going to be talking about the history of the Quakers. So before we go any further, let's start with some absolute basics. Who were the Quakers?
- [03:01]
Ben Pink
So the Quakers began as a religious schismatic group in the 1640s, 1650s, in the northwest of England, with some distinctive ideas and distinctive practices, and they've since grown to become a global movement. And a third of all Quakers in the world today live in Kenya.
- [03:22]
Host
Oh, I wasn't expecting that fact. I hope that we can come on to some of the later history later in this episode, but let's start with the foundation. So tell us a bit more about how and when the Quaker movement was founded and why as well.
- [03:37]
Ben Pink
So the person generally attributed with founding the Quaker movement is someone called George Fox. He was from Leicestershire, in the middle of England. He'd had a very unsettled religious life. And in the 1640s, when he was in his 20s, which is during the time of the English Civil War, he's travelling around full of religious questions, trying to seek answers. He's argued with his village minister. He then spends time with a Baptist uncle in London, and he then visits the parliamentary army camps, which at that time were kind of hotbeds of religious dispute and debate. Everyone was wondering how religion was to be settled in England. So the Civil War was very much both political and religious. And he reaches a very low point. George Fox doesn't get the answers he's been looking for. He reaches a point where he says, my hopes in all men were gone and nor could I tell what to do. And then at this point, he records later in his journal, aged 23, he said, but then, oh, then I heard a voice which said, there is one, even Christ Jesus, that can speak to thy condition. Okay, so that's a bit complex, but basically, here's a voice, has a religious revelation that there is one no less than Christ Jesus, that can really answer his spiritual dilemmas and guide him forward. He said, when I heard this, my heart did leap for joy. And he said, I could see why there was none upon the earth that could speak to my condition, namely, I might give him all the glory. So basically, he's saying here that there wasn't anyone who could help him or any text, actually, because everything was meant to be in this direct relationship with God. So that's a pretty obviously dramatic moment for him. Transformative and a pretty radical idea in terms of his Christian thinking.
- [05:40]
Host
Absolutely. So some really interesting background there, one that he was so young at this time, but also this important context of the Civil wars and how this played into rethinking the status quo, I guess. So how did this young guy gain so many followers? How did Fox's ideas catch on?
- [05:59]
Ben Pink
So there's two important points about this revelation. The first is that George Fox doesn't think it's limited to him. So he doesn't set himself up as this kind of special prophet, but he feels that everyone can have this direct experience, this direct connection with God. And that's really the foundation of the Quaker movement, that everyone can have an encounter with the divine. Everyone, therefore is spiritually equal. And that's really important. George Fox was only one of the leaders of the early Quaker movement. We'll come across others like Margaret Fell. Women were really important in the early Quaker movement. Everyone was spiritually equal. Women, men, young people, old people, everybody. But the other part of this is that Fox was sure that he was right and that Quakers were the true church. And I think that level of certainty was very attractive. As you said, you know, it's a period of the Civil War, huge kind of national trauma suffering. Higher percentage of the population were killed in that period than in the First World War. Failed harvests. And when the war is over and the incredibly radical step of beheading the King has taken place and the republic is established, things don't actually get much better for the people in the street, as it were. There's a sort of a vacuum and a need for something that's going to be dramatically different. And in a highly ranked society, along come the Quakers with this message of spiritual equality, that everyone can be a minister in this new true church. And indeed there's also a doctrine of salvation in this life, that this kind of experience that George Fox has had is about being saved. And other than getting food on the table, probably the most important question for people at this time was, will I be saved? And Quakers unusually are saying, everyone can be saved. And so this proves to be very attractive. Lots of women come and join the movement, mainly the displaced people. One of the Quakers said, we are the outcasts of Israel. We're the kind of displaced, marginalized. And the movement really takes off in the northwest of England a few years after Fox's initial vision, he doesn't immediately have any success. But when he gets to the northwest, a long way from London, an independently minded area, then Quakerism just takes off in the summer of 1652.
- [08:29]
Host
And when did Fox's movement actually get that name, when did it become known as Quakerism? So Max Quigley, one of our Instagram followers, has asked, what's the origin of the name? And I wonder if you could tell us, while we're on this subject, what other names have been used for the Quakers?
- [08:43]
Ben Pink
The Quakers themselves called themselves Children of the Light or Friends of the Truth. You know, they really were sure they were the saints, these were the chosen people bringing the nation to God. But when Fox is tried for blasphemy In Derby in 1650, the judge ridicules him, saying, oh, you know, you're. You say you tremble before the Lord. Oh, you Quaker. It's an insult, essentially, it's a sneer. But it catches on. And we'll find Quaker tracts through the 1650s printed from the people in scorn, called Quakers. And so it was never one of the official terms until later, but it just sticks in the popular imagination.
- [09:27]
Host
Yeah, it's catchy. I wonder if we could talk about a few more fundamentals. We've discussed how Quakerism is all about everybody having an equal relationship with God. But Teresa Day has asked, asked about religious practices, she's asked about worshipping in silence and worshiping without ministers. Were those ideas unique at the time?
- [09:45]
Ben Pink
That's a really lovely question. So Quakers did worship in silence. I mean, it's a really unusual kind of liturgical form. There was another group called the Seekers, many of whom became Quakers, who were also radical in their religious thinking, had stripped everything out of worship and did meet in silence, although they still had a kind of fixed minister. And it may be that Quakers just borrowed the Silence from the Seekers, so it wasn't unique. At the same time, when we look at the stories, the spiritual stories of many of the early Friends, they're on their own, they're in silence, they're thinking, if you're listening for the, you know, the voice of God, silence becomes an obvious way in which you're going to listen. So right from the beginning, Quakers do worship in silence. The meetings are often three hours long. There's an account of a nine hour meeting. But equally, another part of Quaker practice is that people will offer what's called vocal ministry. They'll share something if they feel God is giving it to them to share with the group. And it is said that George Fox, for example, could minister for an hour. So he's really clear he should only speak when God tells him to. It's just that God gives him quite a lot to say, so there's that balance. So in some ways it's A very distinctive practice. And many Quakers in the world still use that as their basis for worship. So all Quakers in Britain, for example, and a large number in North America will still use this silence as the basis for the worship. It's not that there are no ministers though, in answer to Teresa's question, it's that everyone is a minister.
- [11:27]
Host
I see. And are there any other tenets of the Quaker belief system that we should really know about in order to understand this conversation? Getting further into.
- [11:36]
Ben Pink
Sure. Thank you. Quite quickly, Quakers start to speak a little bit differently from other people. So the fact that everyone is spiritually equal means they really push against kind of, you know, the hierarchies of society. So at the time in the 1650s, you would use you as a polite or deferential form for your so called social superiors and you'd use thee and thou for your friends. A little bit like the French vous and tout. Well, Quakers just used the to form for everybody. They thee and thoued to everybody. They wouldn't use you. And so this was in a sense very rude if you were someone who was expecting to be treated with any kind of difference. They also wouldn't take their hats off to anybody because again, that's a sign of deference, you know, doffing of the cap. They would take their hats off if someone was in prayer in a Quaker meeting for worship. So they take their hats off to God but not to any other human. They would refuse to use the names for the days of the week and months of the year because of the pagan origins. So this is very pure, kind of a pure interpretation of Christianity. So they would talk about first day, Sunday, second day, Monday, third day, etc. First month, second month, third month. So Quakers would sound different and they would start to dress differently, wearing plainer clothes. Eventually we'd get through to the porridge packet image of the broad rimmed hat. But George Fox says, you know, don't let your lapels be too wide, don't have any unnecessary buttons. So anything that seemed to be superfluous or about vanity or promoting the self seemed to be unhelpful to the spiritual life. There's one story of a recent Quaker convert. His friends meet him, they take off their hats and bow down. And he won't even speak to me, just stands there, doesn't take his hat off, doesn't bow, doesn't even say good morning, doesn't even say, I'm a Quaker, I don't do that anymore. So they tried again and eventually they realize he is a Quaker. What, Tom? A Quaker. So this becomes a very distinctive group of people quite quickly.
- [13:50]
Host
I'm guessing that they really stood out then in the 17th and 18th centuries, this was still a massively deferential society and they're disregarding this, which I imagine really rubbed people up the wrong way, as you said. So I wonder if you could tell us a bit more about opposition to the Quakers and the persecution that early Quakers faced as well.
- [14:08]
Ben Pink
As I said, you know, George Fox was clear that Quakers were the new and true church. Everyone else was wrong and they weren't shy of saying that there was even a mission to the Pope in 1658. And there's one account of a conversation between a Quaker and Pope Alexander VII where the Quaker ends up saying, well, you say you're a descendant of Peter, but Peter was a follower of Christ, Thou art indeed the Antichrist. So just very clear, certain rude, arrogant, as I said, Quakers believed that they could be saved in this life. They also believed they could be perfected. And I think nothing annoyed other Christians more than these really grand claims that undermined the way in which Christianity had been trying to help humanity be faithful. So they would go into church services, they would disrupt the ministers, they would tell people they didn't need to listen to the ministers anymore, they just needed to listen to God. They didn't need to read their Bibles anymore, they needed to listen to God. So there's a lot of antagonism during the Republic in the 1650s, Quakers are fairly free reign. There's no censorship either in this period. And so Quakers are able to use the printing press to great effect. Things get a lot more difficult when the monarchy is restored in 1660. Margaret Fell, probably the second leading Quaker at the time, rides down, meets Charles ii, tries to argue for religious toleration. He is quite open to it. But the new Parliament, the restored Parliament, made up of the people who've been displaced during the republic, for them, it's kind of time to reassert their authority. And here's a group, the most successful of the sects of the 1650s, maybe 1% of the population in England, these Quakers, they really need to be told a lesson and kept in their place. So there's a series of laws against all nonconformists, but there's even a quaker act in 1662 that essentially makes Quakerism illegal and right the way until the act of toleration in 1689. Quakers will be persecuted, thousands will be imprisoned and hundreds will die in prison. Which were you know really fairly horrible places at the time.
- [16:28]
Host
So it was a dangerous faith to be part of. Can you tell us about the movement of Quakerism to America and how it diverged, or maybe didn't diverge from English Quakerism?
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Ben Pink
So here we have Quakers absolutely sure that they're the true church. Then mission becomes an important element of that and Quakers start traveling both around England and Wales, but then to Ireland, to the rest of Europe, and from 1655 to North America. There's persecution in North America. The Puritans in Boston hang four Quakers, for example. They just tell them they can't come back and they keep coming back. So Quakers is fairly slow to take off. But there are notable Quaker settlements through the 1670s. In 1681, William Penn, who has become a Quaker in the 1660s, becomes the largest private landowner in the world when Charles II just gives him this huge tract of what we now call Pennsylvania as a debt to his father, Admiral Penn. William Penn tries to set up what he calls a holy experiment, basically a Quaker colony which emphasizes religious toleration. And many Quakers, including every Quaker in Wales, will emigrate to Pennsylvania, partly for freedom from the persecution and partly for the economic opportunity it might have afforded. So there is quite a. You know, there's a kind of a large emigration to Pennsylvania in the 1680s.
- [18:02]
Host
And outside of England and America, are there any other notable communities of Quakers that we should know about?
- [18:08]
Ben Pink
Basically, Quakerism remains a transatlantic community through until the 19th century. There are Quakers in Germany and other European countries, but essentially most Quakers we'll find in North America or in Britain. In the 19th century, most of Quakerism takes on a renewed sort of sense of mission, takes on an evangelical emphasis. And Friends, as Quakers, also called Friends, start to send missionaries abroad to India, to Africa, other parts of Asia. And today we'll find Quakers, as I say, part of a global faith, with the mission to Kenya having been particularly successful. And a third of all Quakers in the world are in Kenya, large numbers in Peru and Bolivia, notable sizable elements in Taiwan and Nepal just through these evangelical missions. But Quakerism itself also has divided over time. And so we'll also find different kinds of Quakers in the world today, and some, as I say, who are still using the silence as the basis for worship, and a majority who may have a pastor and some music as part of worship or a message and these kinds of things. And it tends to be these kinds of Quakers who have promoted the mission work overseas.
- [19:28]
Host
So when did we see the end of the persecution of Quakerism and Quakers allowed to practice their beliefs in peace.
- [19:36]
Ben Pink
In 1689 there's an act of Toleration and that allows Quakers and other non conformists to worship legally. One of the other things Quakers wouldn't do was swear an oath. So it says in the Book of Matthew, swear not at all. But there was also this sense of a double standard of truth telling, that if you were swearing to tell the truth in court, what did it say about the rest of your life? But in the 1690s, there's also an Affirmation act that allows Quakers to affirm in court, where prior to that you could get a Quaker into court for any reason, they'd refuse to swear an oath, you could get them into jail. But the Affirmation act is really quite important. But it's right the way through to the 1850s and beyond that Quakers are still partly at odds with the state because as again with other nonconformists, they won't pay tithes and that's an offence through to the Victorian times. And only in 1854 can non conformists go to Oxford or Cambridge. And only in 1871 could say a Quaker work at Oxford or Cambridge. So I mark 1871 as the big date where Quakers in Britain were kind of full citizens. Obviously, when the Quakers who went to North America, particularly those who went to Pennsylvania, they had full citizenship. That was another real draw for people to emigrate. And whilst most Quakers left the Pennsylvania assembly in the 1750s because they had to, the Crown kept insisting they voted for war taxes. Basically that was a decision the Quakers took. They decided how and when to withdraw from political power. That wasn't an option in Britain. The British Friends had to wait a lot longer to have full agency as citizens.
- [21:24]
Host
From what you've told me, the Quakers obviously held some pretty radical beliefs for their times and. And something that Quakers are known for today is believing in equality for women, as you mentioned, but also holding non judgmental attitudes towards issues like sex and sexuality. How long was that a part of Quakerism? And if so, how unusual or controversial was this in previous centuries?
- [21:47]
Ben Pink
So the equality of women was there from the beginning. It was very important element. A large number of published women's writings in the 17th century are by Quaker women. And it was obviously a very attractive feature that women could be seen to be equal, find an equal place in a religious movement. Having said that, what we find is that Quakers are always of their time. And after about 20 years, George Fox and Margaret Fell instituted separate women's business meetings because it turned out that men, the Quaker men weren't really listening to the women. They were being as patriarchal as men more generally. And so for a couple of hundred years, you then had separated men's and women's business meetings. When I talk about a business meeting, that again, in Quaker terms is a meeting for worship to listen to what God might have to say on any particular question. So there are these separate business meetings and they are, though highly gendered. Women tended to work with the pastoral issues, things like marriage, poor relief. Men dealt with theological questions, property and money. And we don't get a fully united business structure until the early 20th century. And then if we look at people who have taken on key roles in the Quaker movement, women aren't taking on those roles until about the 1990s. So the theory has been there right the way through and the reality has taken a bit longer because people are of their time and embedded in the society. So in terms of sex and sexuality, Quakers in Britain have been progressive on those points. In 1963 there was a booklet called Towards a Quaker View of Sex that suggested that loving same sex relationships were equal to heterosexual relationships. And that may have influenced the wolfenden report in 1967. And in 2009, Quakers in Britain decided to campaign for equal marriage, which was unusual amongst Christian groups at the time. Having said that, we could see it took about 50 years to get to that point. So Quaker innovation can take some time because of this way of just trying to listen to what God has to say and of looking for unity in those meetings. And so a few voices or strong voices, that having a different sense of what God has to say can slow the process up. And so it can take quite a while for Quakers to move into a wholly new position. But when they do, everyone is there on the same page.
- [24:29]
Host
Now we have a question from Rob, who's asked about Quaker connections to the abolition movement, the movement to get rid of slavery.
- [24:37]
Ben Pink
Well, that fits very well with this slow process of reaching unity. So there are quakers in the 1670s and 1680s who are very clear that slavery is wrong. To enslave another human being goes against this idea of spiritual equality, the equality of all. And rather curiously and perhaps some discomfort, not all Quakers immediately held that view. And it took about 100 years for Quakers to find unity on that question and to start to say, well, clearly we shouldn't hold slaves, William Penn was a slave owner, for example. We shouldn't hold slaves and we should oppose this trade in people and oppose the slave based economies. Once Quakers are there, they're A prominent and vocal part of the abolition movement. And we can read histories which says old Quakers are at the forefront. But the story behind that is it did actually take some time for everyone to agree to oppose this practice.
- [25:41]
Host
It's obviously a bit more nuanced than it's sometimes presented. While we're on that subject, are there any other more difficult aspects of the Quaker story that you think we need to acknowledge that perhaps don't get much airtime?
- [25:52]
Ben Pink
Well, what's happening now in Britain and in North America is that a number of meetings are looking back at their histories and saying, well, actually, how far were Friends in our meeting involved in slave based economies? And it wasn't that the meeting itself was, but there may have been donations from money made through slavery. So there's a lot of work going on now around reparations and around actually just trying to really have a much more realistic view of the Quaker past. So one of the challenges, I think, is that Quakers often presented as really very good people and indeed that, you know, have done many, many wonderful things and made a major contribution to, say, penal reform and have been, you know, latterly at the forefront of the abolition campaign. But there is this story behind about Quakers being embedded in their societies, not having monasteries and convents, being people who are brought up in the society they're in. And therefore one of the questions for Quakers now is what in 100 years or 200 years time will people look back on and say, well, why? Why are we so slow on doing that? Whether it's giving up flying or changing your diet or whatever. And so there's that constant awareness of perhaps the need for some discomfort along with the spiritual comfort of being part of this group.
- [27:13]
Host
That question of living within a society rather than being secluded from it is interesting. And Quakers are quite associated in Britain with business. And JB has asked about Victorian industrialists who were Quakers and why so many were.
- [27:29]
Ben Pink
There's a number of points at play here. The received view is that because Quakers wouldn't swear an oath, they wouldn't then be able to join the professions such as medicine or law. And so commerce was really the alternative. There's some more recent work though, suggesting actually Quakers were quite commercially inclined. There were a number of factors around Quakerism that it was a kind of fairly closed group. There were some strategic marriages to help promote particular businesses. There was a great internal network in a way that you could do business with other Quakers and a way of apprenticing, you know, younger Quakers into businesses.
- [28:06]
Host
Because in a way that seems at odds with what you were saying earlier about stripping everything back and having kind of no excess frippery or vanity.
- [28:16]
Ben Pink
Sure. There is advice from George Fox about not making an undue surplus so you could make a profit but don't do so unfairly. One of the other early characteristics of Quakers was fixed price trading. So they would name a price and say this is the fair price and I'm not haggling. I'm either not going to haggle to buy and I'm not going to haggle to sell. That was unusual at the time, but it did allow people to trust Quaker traders and it said that the origins of Quaker banks, banking dynasties and Lloyd's and Barclays bank both began as Quaker enterprises was in the public trust of Quakers who were maintaining a position of integrity around money. So it wasn't that they didn't make a profit, but they tried to make a profit fairly and actually often did very well through those kinds of practices. So you certainly have a group of people who are inclined to commerce, commercial life and commerce and industry become main Quaker occupations. I mean, there are some very notable Quaker industrial industrialists. Cadburys, Roundtrees, Frys, Reckitt and Coleman Carr's Biscuits, Clark Shoes, the Derbys at Colebrookdale with their iron bridge and the huge furnaces. And they do tend to stick in the popular imagination. It may be that the majority of Quakers weren't so well off, weren't so middle class in the 18th and 19th centuries, but that these families really kind of led the way along with the banking dynasties and allowed other people to come with them. And by the time we get to the 20th century where actually Quakers in business becomes a declining concern, Quakers are then clearly mainly middle class.
- [30:03]
Host
So three of the names you mentioned, there were Cadbury's, Roundtree and Fry. We've had a question from Sarah C. Who's asked why did the Quakers love chocolate so much? And I think what she's getting at here is really why were so many Quakers in the confectionery business?
- [30:19]
Ben Pink
Well, chocolate originally was to do with cocoa and cocoa is a temperance drink. And so each of those three companies initially were involved in cocoa as a temperance drink during kind of the more evangelical period of British Quakerism. And they then later get into confectionery. You know, George Cadbury builds his factory at Bournville, he calls it Bournville because the best chocolate comes from France. And so this has a kind of French sound to it. And they will become major chocolate manufacturers. That's not to say they won't necessarily get into their own what's been called chocolate wars with each other. And, you know, there's tales of industrial espionage and inviting people along for interviews just to find out a recipe and. But not really having a job on offer. So Round Trees and Cadburys are at times were rivals, as well as both being Quaker chocolate companies.
- [31:15]
Host
And if we move the story from the 19th century into the 20th century, we've got a question from Alex Plotkin on Facebook, who's asked about how Quakers dealt with the draft in the Second World War and whether any Quakers served in any capacity. I wonder if you could broaden this out a bit, maybe to talk about their approach to pacifism generally.
- [31:34]
Ben Pink
So when George Fox is in jail in Derby, he's offered release after six months if he will fight at the forthcoming Battle of Worcester against Charles I's son, also called Charles. And he refuses, saying, this is not part of my Christianity. And really, from the beginning, we have Quakers holding a very clear view against war and against the kind of preparation for war. So what, in a sense will be called later a pacifist witness. Having said that, there have always been Quakers who in any particular conflict have joined up, whether it's the War of Independence in North America or the American Civil War, where for some people the abolition cause was so important they felt they needed to fight for it. The crunch for British Quakers came with actually the First World War rather than the Second World War, and Quakers took one of five positions there. So some joined up. In fact, a third of all eligible Quaker men joined up in the First World War. So for a peace church, this is quite a high percentage. But again, that sense of conscience that this was perhaps a greater cause, a kind of Quaker version of the just war came into play. Others joined as non combatants, perhaps joining a medical unit. There was then an independent Quaker medical unit called the Friends Ambulance Unit, and some Quakers joined that. But in March 1916, the Military Service act introduces conscription and two Quaker MPs, Arnold Rowntree and T. Edmond Harvey, are able to insert a conscientious objection clause into the act. And this allows Quakers and other conscientious objectors to take a stand against military service to say, my religion doesn't permit me to go to the front. And many Quakers then go before tribunals and they give an alternative service, please go and work on this farm, for example. But other Quakers will not go before the tribunal because they feel that to go and, for example, work on the farm releases the farmhand to go to the front. And these people refuse to even register as conscientious objectors. They're labeled as deserters, called absolutists in some sense and spend much of the First World War in prison. So there's these different positions that they take. The Quakers as an organization though maintain an anti war position and always have done. But individually people will navigate that and find their own path. And one of the features of 20th century Quakerism is that there's been a greater permissiveness around just finding your own way through these difficult questions in challenging times.
- [34:20]
Host
We have a really interesting arc of the Quakers so, you know, these rabble rousers that then become trusted bankers and businessmen and then become conscientious objectors with controversy surrounding that as well. And this relates to something that SK has asked on Instagram about how attitudes towards the Quakers have changed over time.
- [34:42]
Ben Pink
Well, it's interesting. So I think the position on war means that Quakers are never fully aligned with the state. There's times where they're quite close, you know, when they become full citizens. And obviously in Pennsylvania they're running the colony for a time. But there's always that sense that God may lead the Quakers into a kind of countercultural position. And Quakers have often been at the pioneering end of social reform and social justice work as well as the peace witness. So we can think of Elizabeth Fry, for example, working with the women in Newgate jail and other prisons and trying to push for penal reform. Sort of unpopular and ridiculed at the time, you know, especially as a woman. And then later of course is on the five pound note in Britain and is heralded as a pioneer. I think Quakers have taken and continue to take unpopular positions and yet there seems to be a sort of grudging respect for that kind of again, the integrity that Quakers try to maintain. In the stories of people sort of nervously being in the middle of a conversation about war and then saying, well actually I'm a Quaker and I don't go along with that and say, oh, okay, well good for you, mate. There's a sort of respect for the position even if it's unpopular. Although again, Quakers in the First World War who did refuse the draft were, you know, obviously given white feathers and some people lost their jobs because they were seen to be unpatriotic. So it's not always an easy balance. But I think there is a general respect for the Quakers where people know who the Quakers are. And I mean that's one of the other things. It's a group that's often unknown or that people don't fully understand it or know very much about it. You know, as the image on the porridge packet, which actually is a Presbyterian company, just trying to get a good marketing ploy. But porridge peace, Puritanism, you know, people have said to me, oh, the Quakers are all dead, aren't they? And they're not, you know, it's half a million globally.
- [36:45]
Host
Porridge, peace and Puritanism leads me onto my next question from Sebastian Smith on Facebook, who's asked about the cultural influence of the Quaker community.
- [36:56]
Ben Pink
Well, okay, so more widely, I suppose we can see. I mean, Quakers weren't the only people not to haggle. But fixed price trading is now commonplace. I suppose there has been a greater acceptance of religious diversity and of peace as a valid position. I think Quakers have been able to have a cultural influence in terms of social justice work, things like, I mean, obviously abolition of slave trade, but penal reform. Constantly trying to push for a greater sense of social justice in the world, that people be treated with equal respect. More recently in Britain, Quakers have opposed fracking, but, I mean, often one voice amongst many. It's not that somehow Quakers are totally unique or alone in pushing for, say, divestment in fossil fuels or things like that. That was a position that churches together took. But Quakers hopefully are a voice that are pushing, say, on the equal marriage issue, just pushing away at the status quo a little bit.
- [37:55]
Host
And finally, Ben, as someone who's, you know, very involved with Quaker communities today, to what extent do you think that today's Quakers are shaped by their history?
- [38:07]
Ben Pink
Well, Quakers in Britain today are very, very different from the first Quakers. So Quakers in Britain today would not say they were the true church and that everyone else was wrong. In fact, they're more likely to say that everyone is a little bit wrong with Quakerism as one option amongst many and none and yet are still very shaped and informed by some of those ideas of George Fox and Margaret Fell. So that there is a direct connection with spirit that people can tap into that this is available for everybody, that everybody therefore is spiritually equal. No one has any greater spiritual authority than anyone else. And in fact, everybody should be treated with equal respect, whatever their age, gender or any other kind of characteristic. So that's really fundamental. And Quakers today get that directly from that founding vision of George Fox. Peace is really important. The way in which Quakers worship, even those with pastors and music, still will often have a period of open worship for people just to sit and listen and be guided and gathered by God. So the tradition is important, even whilst it's evolved and adapted over time and in different places and different contexts.
- [39:26]
Host
That was Ben Pink. Dandelion Ben is Professor of Quaker Studies at the University of Birmingham and the program leader for Research at Woodbrook Quaker Study Centre. He's also the author of the Quakers A Very Short Introduction. Thanks for listening. This podcast was produced by Jack Bateman.