Sacagawea: life of the week

Summary

History Extra Podcast – Episode Summary: "Sacagawea: Life of the Week"

Release Date: January 21, 2025
Host: Rebecca Franks
Guest: Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs, Author and President of the Lewis and Clark Trust

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Introduction

In the January 21, 2025 episode of the History Extra Podcast, host Rebecca Franks delves into the life and legacy of Sacagawea, the Shoshone woman renowned for her pivotal role in the Lewis and Clark Expedition. Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs, a seasoned historian and author, joins the discussion to provide an in-depth exploration of Sacagawea’s contributions, personal life, and enduring legacy.

Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs’ Background

Stephanie introduces herself as someone deeply connected to the Lewis and Clark Trail, having extensively traveled its path to gain a profound understanding of the expedition. She recounts her early experiences hiking the Lolo Trail and paddling the Missouri River, activities inspired by her father, a history professor and bestselling author. Her hands-on approach has enriched her perspective on Sacagawea’s role in the expedition.

Who Was Sacagawea?

[02:04] Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs:
"Sacagawea was a Native American young woman who accompanied Lewis and Clark on their journey from her village in what is now North Dakota all the way to the Pacific coast. She was approximately 15 or 16 at the time and carried her young son on her back."

Stephanie clarifies that Sacagawea was not merely a guide but served as a translator and a cultural intermediary. Her ability to navigate relationships with various Native American tribes was crucial for the expedition’s success.

Understanding Sacagawea’s Name

[03:08] Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs:
"The Sacagawea with a J is from her birth tribe, the Shoshone, and Sacagawea is from the Hidatsa tribe that adopted her. Her name has several meanings, including 'Boat Launcher' and 'Bird Woman'."

This section highlights the complexities surrounding her name's spelling and pronunciation, reflecting her cultural transitions.

Early Life and Capture

[05:24] Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs:
"Sacagawea was born around 1788. Her early life with the Shoshone is largely unknown due to the lack of written records, but it's understood she was pledged in marriage before being kidnapped by a Hidatsa tribe."

Stephanie emphasizes that much of Sacagawea’s early life remains speculative, relying heavily on oral histories and Lewis and Clark’s journals.

Role in the Expedition

Translator and Cultural Expert

[11:12] Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs:
"The translation chain was quite complex, involving at least five people at times. Sacagawea was pivotal in translating from Shoshone to Hidatsa, and then to French and English."

Her linguistic skills and cultural knowledge facilitated critical negotiations and interactions with Native American tribes, particularly during the crossing of the Bitterroot Mountains.

Symbol of Peace

[13:22] Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs:
"Sacagawea symbolized a walking white flag. Her presence assured other tribes that the expedition was not a war party, fostering peaceful relationships."

Sacagawea’s role extended beyond translation; she was a living symbol of peace, which significantly eased the expedition’s interactions with indigenous communities.

Challenges Faced

Health Scares

[17:25] Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs:
"Near the Great Falls, Sacagawea fell ill with what was called putrid fever. The expedition members were deeply concerned as her health was vital for their continued success."

Her illness and subsequent recovery were pivotal moments that underscored her indispensable role in the journey.

Near-Disasters

[17:25] Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs:
"During a hailstorm near the Great Falls, Sacagawea lost supplies, and Captain Clark worried about her health and the expedition’s morale."

These incidents highlight the constant perils the group faced and Sacagawea’s resilience in overcoming them.

Personal Life and Family

Jean Baptiste Charbonneau

[14:40] Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs:
"Jean Baptiste was born during the expedition and became a significant figure in his own right, working as a translator and adventurer."

Jean Baptiste’s life story further illustrates Sacagawea’s lasting legacy, bridging cultures and contributing to American frontier history.

Sacagawea’s Legacy

Cultural Memorials

[25:19] Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs:
"Sacagawea is memorialized in countless ways, including statues, the Sacagawea dollar coin designed by Glenna Goodacre, schools, and more."

Her widespread recognition is a testament to her enduring impact on American history and culture.

Misconceptions

[28:10] Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs:
"A common misconception is that Sacagawea was a guide. In reality, she was a translator and cultural expert who provided critical support at key moments."

Clarifying these misconceptions helps in appreciating her true contributions beyond popular myth.

Reputation Among Native Americans

[31:40] Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs:
"Sacagawea is regarded as a serious and important figure. However, some view her role as inadvertently contributing to the westward expansion that affected Native populations negatively."

This nuanced perspective acknowledges both her positive contributions and the broader consequences of the expedition.

Final Years and Death

[24:13] Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs:
"Sacagawea likely died of typhus at a trading post called Fort Manuel Lisa, now underwater. Another less accepted account claims she lived to be 100 and is buried in Wyoming."

The uncertainty surrounding her death reflects the gaps in historical records about her later life.

End of the Expedition

[22:55] Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs:
"At the expedition's end, Sacagawea returned to the Knife River villages. Her departure was marked by her commitment to her son's education, as William Clark adopted him and ensured his education in St. Louis."

Stephanie highlights the strong bonds formed during the expedition and Sacagawea’s dedication to her family’s future.

Stephanie’s Further Contributions

[34:04] Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs:
"I authored 'The Lewis and Clark Companion' and 'Why Sacagawea Deserves a Day Off and Other Lessons from the Lewis and Clark Trail,' which offer comprehensive insights into the expedition and Sacagawea’s role."

Her works serve as valuable resources for those seeking to understand the complexities of the Lewis and Clark Expedition and Sacagawea’s contributions.

Conclusion

Rebecca Franks concludes the episode by emphasizing Sacagawea's integral role in one of America's most significant exploratory missions. Through Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs' expert insights, listeners gain a deeper appreciation of Sacagawea’s multifaceted contributions, her enduring legacy, and the historical contexts that shaped her life.

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Notable Quotes:

• Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs [02:04]:
  "Sacagawea was a Native American young woman who accompanied Lewis and Clark on their journey... she was approximately 15 or 16 at the time and carried her young son on her back."

• Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs [07:26]:
  "Some people have said she's like a human Rorschach test... fact, fiction, oral history, written history, it's all a big picture with her."

• Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs [12:54]:
  "She gave some gifts, basically, to Clark. She gave him some ermine tales for Christmas when they were on the coast... the blue beaded belt is a story of them kind of appropriating her personal adornments."

• Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs [26:15]:
  "Sacagawea is memorialized in countless ways, including statues, the Sacagawea dollar coin..."

• Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs [28:10]:
  "A common misconception is that Sacagawea was a guide. In reality, she was a translator and cultural expert who provided critical support at key moments."

This episode offers a comprehensive and engaging exploration of Sacagawea’s life, shedding light on her indispensable role in the Lewis and Clark Expedition and her lasting impact on American history.

Transcript

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[Rebecca Franks]

Welcome to the History Extra Podcast. Fascinating historical conversations from the makers of BBC History Magazine. Sacagawea is remembered in US History as the Shoshone woman who acted as interpreter to the Lewis and Clark expedition, the early 19th century mission to to chart territory in the American west after the Louisiana Purchase. But what impact did Sacajawea's contributions have on the success of this eventful journey? How did her presence influence interactions with the various Native American people that the expedition party encountered? And how has her legacy been interpreted and commemorated in the years since? Speaking to Rebecca Franks for today's Life of the Week episode, Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs delves into the life of Sacajawea, from what we know about her early years to what her story can reveal about broader cultural attitudes towards indigenous people in American history.

[Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs]

In this episode of Life of the Week, we're heading off into the North American wilderness with Sacajawea, a fascinating figure from history, and our expert has spent her lifetime walking or paddling in her footsteps. So welcome to the History Extra Podcast. Stephanie, before we launch in, can you give us the basics? Who was Sacagawea?

Yes, I can, and thank you so much for having me. She was a Native American young woman who accompanied Lewis and Clark over their journey from her village in what is now North Dakota all the way to the Pacific coast, and she was approximately 15 or 16 at the time, and she carried her young son on her back. She was not the guide that we sometimes think of her. A lot of the statues of her are of her pointing west. She was of a translator and someone who could help them with local geographic knowledge because she had been kidnapped from the area where they were headed into to cross the Bitterroot Mountains.

And can you tell us about her name, how it's spelled, how it's pronounced and what it means? I know there are differing versions of this.

This is one of the most frequently asked questions. And I sometimes joke the way to get it right is just to call her Mrs. Charbonneau. Actually, the Sacagawea with a J is from her birth tribe, and then Sacagawea is more from the Hidatsa tribe that kind of adopted her. And there's several meanings. Boat launcher was one of them, and bird woman was the Sagagawiya is bird woman. And we know that the captains use that because they named a river after her and they say we named it Bird Woman's river after our Native American translator, our interpretess or whatever. They would refer to her sometimes as squaw or woman, wife of the French trader who was also hired as a translator to go with them.

And you followed in her footsteps quite literally on the Lewis and Clark Trail. Can you tell us briefly about your career and how you came to work on her?

Yes, I was 16 years old. My father was a history professor at the time. He later became a best selling author partly because of Lewis and Clark and the summer of 1976, he decided that we were gonna all keep journals and do car camping and hiking and paddling on the entire trail. Take the whole summer. We did it. And we, you know, we did. We hiked the Lolo Trail, we paddled in the Missouri river breaks at one point. Later on, we even horseback rode over the Lolo Trail. So in addition to some of the work that I've done during the bicentennial of the expedition, I've pretty much traveled the whole trail, some parts of it several times. And I got a real feeling for, I guess you would call it like the astronaut aspect of their journey. They were going into the unknown, except for her. She knew that country because she had been kidnapped by a Hadatsa from her tribe, the Shoshone, who were living in present day Idaho. So she was taken back to North Dakota from there.

Maybe you could tell us a bit then about her early life and her background. You know, she was born in roughly 1788, I think.

Yeah, 1788. Yes. Her early life with her birth tribe we really don't know a whole lot about. She was pledged in marriage to a Man at that point. But before her kidnapping, we really don't know a whole lot about it because there were no observers to write down what had happened. We get a lot of oral history and some of that conflicts with each other. But her early life we don't know a whole lot about. We know more about when she lived with the Hidatsa, who were not a nomadic tribe. They were more the farmers of the plains out there in North Dakota. And it was a matrilineal based society where the women planted the crops and the women did a lot of the sustenance and the curing of hides. And the basic jobs of community were all done by women. The men were more hunters and warriors and also in charge of various ceremonial things. And the women were really the grunt workers of the tribe. And so that's what she did. She worked really hard. She learned the language. She was married to this trapper. We don't know exactly if he won her in some kind of a poker game or if he bought her, but he was with her and she was pregnant by the time Lewis and Clark met her. So she was young, pregnant woman. But she knew her birth language too, so she would have been a vital link in the translation chain. I should also say that my understanding of her is really based on the journals of Lewis and Clark because they mention her, they talk about her, not a lot, but that's the written record and that's what my understanding is based on.

That was an area I was curious to know, actually, how much fact is known about her and how much is kind of conjecture or speculation or even fiction.

Some people have said she's like a human Rorschach test, because it really depends on where your knowledge and your frame of reference comes from, how you understand her. So fact, fiction, oral history, written history, it's all a big picture with her. And, you know, she wasn't keeping a journal. The one time that we know about her real, I would like to say her temperament and her personality is when the canoe she was riding in, which happened to contain a lot of the instruments and probably the journals, almost tipped over. And she saved all the stuff that was floating away. And Meriwether Lewis says she had the fortitude, she had the resolution, she saved all of our stuff. And without that record of the first part of their journey, it really would have been half the story.

Do we get a sense of sort of what she was like then as a person at all, or is that kind of too much to say?

The other time, I would say we Get a sense of her personality is when they're on the coast near Astoria, Oregon, and they were sort of inland a little bit, and there was an ex looking for a whale that had been beached on the actual coastline there. And she wasn't going to be allowed to go. And she. In the journals, they say she is very. She petitions to go. She doesn't think it's fair that she came all that way and then would not be allowed to see the big water or see this beached whale, which would certainly be the hugest fish she would ever see. And the fact that she insisted to go see that whale, I always admired and thought, wow, she had some spunk. You know, she really knew that that was not fair to keep her in camp when they were going to see this water.

The ocean definitely gives a great flavor of what she must have been like. I wonder if we could set it a little bit in that context then, of who she was with and maybe go back to the beginning of the expedition. So she became, you know, the reason her name is kind of in the history books is her involvement with the Lewis and Clark Expedition of 1804 onwards. Could you briefly tell us what the expedition was setting out to do?

Thomas Jefferson decided that he needed more information about the Louisiana Purchase and he wanted to find the Northwest Passage. So he found his private secretary, Merit. Lewis was the man for the job, and Lewis hired William Clark. And they basically were on the river looking for a quick way to get to the coast, and they never found it. But in addition to that looking for the Northwest Passage, they were also looking at everything and observing and noting and taking down long lists and talking to Native American peoples to gain the information that Jefferson wanted so that they could fill up that area with settlers and people looking for commerce. He always said it's for purposes of commerce. It wasn't some family camping trip thing. It was. They were a military expedition sent into the. What was then unknown wilderness to find out what was there, who was there, and what they did for their livings, and, you know, just anything. It was like they were the supreme surveyors of our history, really. And she was the translator that they hired in Fort Mandan. Well, actually, they named Fort Mandan. The name of her village was the Knife River Villages in North Dakota, present day North Dakota. And when they heard that there was a French trapper there with a wife from the area where they were headed to, they knew they had to have those two as translators to be able to buy horses and get their gear over the mountains. And then onto the ocean.

So it sounds like there was quite a complicated or at least convoluted train of translation from Shoshone to Hidatsa to French to English sort of involved.

Yeah, it really was. Especially at certain times. There would be at least five people in the translation chain. I kind of have a little note here. I can tell you that the captain spoke English to Labiche. Labiche was one of the boatmen, and he spoke French to Charbonneau. Charbonneau spoke Hidatsa to Sacagawea, and she spoke Shoshone to the Shoshone leaders. So when they were at a real crucial part trying to get the horses to cross the Bitterroots, she was instrumental in that translation change. She was a vital part of it. And they did get the horses and they did cross the Bitterroot Mountains.

And was she the only woman on the trail as part of that expedition?

Yeah, she was the only woman. When they encountered other tribes, there would be women, naturally, but she was the only woman. And one of my points is people say how could she keep up with these hardy young soldiers? And given her background and her extreme familiarity with hard work, you know, I think at some point they might have had a hard time keeping up with her. And I also think a lot of people feel this way, is that when they were around the campfire at night having their last dinner of the day, and the fiddle would come out, the music would be played. I think she reminded the men of their families back home and gave them a little bit of confidence that if she can do this, then we can do it too.

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[Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs]

And aside from languages, how important was it for Lewis and Clark to have a Native American working with them?

Well, I don't think they realized how important it would be, especially for her as a woman, because what she symbolized kind of was a walking white flag, a pie emblem. A person who would never be part of a war party. So when the other tribes would see her, they would say, well, this can't be a war party. They've got a woman, a baby, a dog. You know, they would see her and think, well, it's gotta be okay. These People aren't coming to hurt us. They want something from us. So she was in that passive role. She was really important as a peace symbol.

And do we know how she felt to be part of the expedition and sort of how she was treated? I mean, did she have much agency herself within this?

I think what she had was their respect and an acknowledgement that as a mother and as somebody who worked alongside them and contributed by finding certain foods and being able to say, I recognize this landform. We're on the right road. Those kind of things were crucial to their morale. And she was the reason they had that reassurance that they were on the right road.

And you mentioned that this image of. Of a woman with the baby and the dog. We know she was traveling with her infant son. What do we know about him and later his younger sister?

Well, we don't know a lot about the younger sister because most accounts believe that she died pretty early in her life with Jean Baptiste Charbonneau, her son. We do know quite a bit because he had a really long life of being a translator, basically. He was born February 11th of 1805 with the help of a rattlesnake rattle, which people say, well, how did that work? Well known amongst the Hidatsa people that if a woman was struggling in labor and you gave her a couple of rattlesnake rattles pulverized into water like a tea, that it would hasten her bringing forth her child. And so they did that, and she did bring forth her child fairly swiftly after they gave her that tea. And Lewis always said, I don't know if that was real thing or if it was just their belief in that, but it worked. And he was born, and he was about two months old when they took off. And he was on his mother's back basically the whole time, except when they would be stopped. He experienced a serious illness during the expedition when, if he would have died, it really would have hurt their morale. I think he had an abscess. And they were able to treat it, and he was able to get better. After the expedition, he went to live with Clark. He was adopted by Clark about a year or so after they left the expedition and went back to the Knife river villages. And Clark had written them this letter saying, I would much like to adopt your son and educate him in St. Louis. So they agreed. They brought him to St. Louis, and he was educated there. And he met Duke Paul of Wurttemberg. I think I'm pronouncing that wrong. But he meets him, and then he goes to Europe with him, and he learned more languages while he was in Europe. He became a trapper. He came back to the United States, became a trapper, a mule skinner, a guide for the Mormon Battalion. He worked at a mission, he surveyed. He was a miner. He was a hotel clerk. And he died trying to get back to Montana to go look for gold in 1866. And he's buried. You can see his grave. It's in Inskeep, Oregon. So he had a really long life, and there are a couple books about him that are very interesting. He was a man of many cultures, and he was fortunate. He was lucky that he got to meet all these great people. And his mother taught him everything that she knew, certainly. So a very interesting character we mentioned there.

We're traveling through this landscape that Sacagaweir did know, but. But it was still a dangerous sort of undertaking, and she risked her own life at points. Can you tell us what happened near the Great Falls of Montana?

Yeah, at the Great Falls. Well, first of all, she got sick near the Great Falls, and they were very worried that they would lose her, and then they'd be with an orphaned child and they wouldn't have a translator. So it was very important that she get better. And they gave her some water from a sulfur spring near Great Falls, and it cured her. She got better. So that was a really fortunate thing for Lewis and Clark. There was also an episode near Great Falls where shortly after she recovered, she was with Clark, Captain Clark and his slave York, and they were in a gully near the river, and a huge hailstorm came up and basically washed all their clothes away. And she lost the backboard, I think, or the cradle that she carried her son in. Clark loses his compass. I mean, it was a near disaster, a near fatal disaster. And Clark worried that she was going to have a relapse of the sickness. So he was very concerned about her at that point. And I think it's one of those moments where you really understand how vital she was to them, to the captains.

And there's another story about a blue beaded belt, which. And that was important. Would he be able to tell us that story, too?

Yes, and that also has a very romanticized painting associated with that, where she's giving her belt to Captain Clark. And it's kind of a. You know, it implies there was a romance there, which I don't believe was ever real. But she had this blue beaded belt that she probably acquired because her husband was a traitor and he traded with Native Americans, or she might have been given it because she was such a good worker. And so at her tribe with or when she was living with Hadassah's, I believe, she acquired this belt. And when they got to the coast, they were running out of supplies to trade. And, of course, blue beads were one of the most highly prized trade items that they could use to secure other items that they needed. And in this case, there was a sea otter robe that Clark said it was the most beautiful robe he had ever seen. And both the captains wanted it, but they couldn't come up with the right trade item to purchase it until they offered her blue beaded belt to the tribe to get them the sea otter robe. So she was given a blue cloth coat in exchange for that from the captains. But, you know, I always thought, well, she must have been kind of mad that day, a little bit PO'd that they took this treasured relic of hers and gave it to purchase something they wanted. And we don't know what happened to that sea otter robe. So the blue beaded belt is a story of them kind of appropriating her personal adornments and using it to purchase something they wanted.

Interesting illustration of that kind of power dynamic in a way. More generally, what were the challenges and triumphs of this expedition?

Well, as I mentioned, it was a huge challenge because there were tribes where they were going. There were Indian settlements that they were going through, but they didn't know the differences. They had to learn all these things about the Native Americans, so that was a huge challenge. The geography was the challenge. I mean, they were following the river, so it wasn't like they were gonna get lost. But once they got up into the mountains, there was a lot of challenges finding the trail if it snowed. And food. There was a scarcity of food when they got into the mountains. So every kind of aspect of their journey was a challenge. I mean, you think about it, they didn't have any gear like we have today, you know, waterproof gear. They had leather and wool and things that they had to always replenish. They always had to make new moccasins and make new clothing. So that was a challenge. The food was a challenge. The tribulations would be just the sheer amount of energy that it took to paddle or hike or ride the trail, get over the mountains, and look for that Northwest Passage, which, as I mentioned, they didn't find. There wasn't one. So it was very hard work. And especially when you think of her as a young woman doing that work, and never in the journals does it Say, oh, she was a slacker. Oh, she didn't help. Oh, the baby cried all night. She did her job and she did it well. And I think that's why in America, she's so well regarded. There's more statues to her than to any other American woman. And not just statues. I made a list here, let's see, of all the things, you know, we have the coin, of course, and we can talk about that later. There's things like perfume named after her. There's things. There's a coffee named after her. There's, of course, schools, lakes, mountains, rivers, a constellation, a navy ship, a plane and a plaza, scenic byway, hotels, books, of course, tons of books about her, DVDs. And she has her own stamp, the coin, a candy bar, hazelnut American Girl doll and a Beanie Baby. So, I mean, when you think about, she's recognizable to American students, and they always relearn, you know, one of the scholars of Lewis and Clark said, America is always rediscovering Lewis and Clark. With each generation of students, there's a new wave of people saying, wow, I want to know more about her. So when you see her statues all across the country, it is amazing. She's an icon.

Quite a legacy. Before we get a little bit more into that, can we wrap up the expedition? What happened at the end of it?

So for her, at the end of the expedition, she went back to the Knife river villages in present day North Dakota. And I think because she valued so much this idea of basically the Enlightenment, these guys coming out, writing in their journals, reading, using maps, that she saw the value of education, especially amongst the white people. So with Clark writing that he would take responsibility for educating her son, I think that was a major priority for her. So then a couple of, I think after he was weaned, maybe it was the next year, they took him to St. Louis and left him with William Clark. And, you know, it must have been exceedingly hard for her to do that, but she really saw the value of education, I think, and she wanted him to be educated. So they go back to St. Louis, the expedition does, and try and get the journals published while she left her son with her trusted friend Clark to be educated. And so I think that's a testimony to the closeness of their relationship between Sacagawea and Clark and Charbonneau, too.

And how much longer did she live?

Well, there's two stories on that. The one that most scholars believe is that when Clark gave her husband, Charbonneau, some land around St. Louis, but he didn't like farming. He didn't want to be a farmer. And she wanted to go back to her people, the Hidatsas, at that point. So they left St. Louis and went back, headed back. And when they were at this place called Fort Manuel, Lisa, which was a trading post, she caught this. It was typhus, basically. They called it putrid fever. And she died and they buried her. But that area is now underwater. There's another grave that has another story to it that says she lived to be 100. And most scholars don't really accept that. But there is a grave in Wyoming that says this is Sacagawea's burial place.

And as you mentioned, she's been memorialized in countless ways, including on a gold dollar coin. I wondered if you could tell us a bit more about that coin and how it went when it came into being.

Yeah, I can. And I can also show it. It's in a glass covering here. But it's a beautiful coin and it has her image on it with her baby on her back. It was designed by an artist named Glenna Goodacre, and it was commissioned or issued in the year 2000. It really was in circulation until 2008, and then I guess they reissued it. It never caught on in America. People didn't like to use it. I don't know. It was a replacement for the Susan B. Anthony coin. So I don't know whether it was the fact that it was a dollar coin and they would much rather have a paper dollar. I'm not sure why it didn't catch on, but I understand that it is very popular. It was very popular in Ecuador, so you can still find them, but they no longer issued that Sacagawea dollar coin.

What was her legacy? Is that something that's possible to kind of sum up?

I always think of the inspirational fact of her legacy that she continues to inspire young women and young students of the expedition. I mentioned that each generation rediscovers this story. As an interpreter, she did help with the collection of information. So she was crucial to the assignment, to fulfilling the assignment that Jefferson gave them. When she pointed out a place called Beaverhead Rock, which is near where they were going to go and cross the mountains, it was so reassuring and so morale building for the men to know, wow, we are going the right direction and we're going to fulfill this mission. We know that as a society, we know more about the Native Americans of that time because of her, because of what she could say, well, this is why they do this, or this is what this tribe believes through translation. Lewis and Clark might not have succeeded without her. I don't believe that she hastened the demise of the Native American populations. Because, in a way, America, they were already. When Lewis and Clark came back to St. Louis, they were meeting traitors and trappers that were already heading out West. So I don't think that they. Lewis and Clark and Sacagawea were the big door openers for Western civilization. But the information that they brought back was crucial. And I think of her like a great teacher and a storyteller. And her story's going to always be retold as long as we have campfires to sit around and audiences who enjoy a good yarn. Only the fact of her life is that she really did it. She did it. So, you know, she's inspiring. Her legacy is the inspiration she continues to give to young women and people who study this story.

Are there any common misconceptions about her?

Yeah, the biggest one, I would say, is that she was a guide. That's the biggest. Because a lot of the statues show her pointing. People assume, oh, Lewis and Clark, they needed somebody to tell them the way. Well, no, not really. Cause they had that river. She did guide at a couple of crucial points. And Clark says she was a pilot to me for this part of the country. But it wasn't like every day they would wake up and go, okay, which way do we go now? Sacagawea. She was crucial at certain points, but she really wasn't a guide. She was a translator, a cultural expert. She harvested some plants and some foods that they didn't know about and helped aid to their diet. At one point, she looked at some tracks and was able to say, oh, those moccasin tracks are from this or that tribe. She could read moccasin tracks. She would explain the place names of things like the beaverhead rock and explain, this is why we called this a beaverhead rock. It looks like a beaver coming out of the water. And she remembered all the stories, the origin stories that she heard through both of her tribes. She gave some gifts, basically, to Clark. She gave him some ermine tales for Christmas when they were on the coast. She gave him some stale bread, a lump of sugar that she had somehow saved. And of course, there is that blue beaded belt story. So I think when you look at her legacy and the misconceptions and all that, you gotta go back to the journals and see where Lewis says after that accident on the river and all the journals could have spilled in. He says the Indian Woman to whom I ascribe equal fortitude and resolution with any person on board at the time of the accident, caught and preserved most of the light articles which were washed overboard. And a week later he named a river Bird Woman's river after her. And that river is still, you know, for a while it was called Crooked Creek, but now it's back to Sacagawea's river, or Bird Woman River.

Has her reputation. Has it always been. Has she always been like a well known figure in North America ever since this happened, or has it fluctuated over the years, her reputation?

You know, I think you could say that it fluctuated depending. Like in the 1900s, there was a movement, the suffragette movement, used her as an example of what it means for women to have the right to vote. Because she was able to vote with the rest of the expedition members on the location of the fort they built out there on the coast, she was able to add her vote. And it's recorded. And in the journals it says Sacagawea votes to stay where the POTUS roots grow. And it's kind of like a potato root. So she was always thinking ahead, like, we need to have food. We might as well build the fort close enough to the food so that we don't have to, you know, have extra effort to go out and find foods. If we build the fort near it, that would be the best idea. And so the suffragettes love to say, you know, she was the first woman to have the vote and they built a statue to her and there was an account written of her life and things like that. And I think it's kind of like when there's a famous enough story, there's certainly gonna be liberties taken with that story. And some of them are good and some of them aren't so much.

And how is she regarded by Native Americans?

Well, I think just given the idea that many want to claim her as from their tribe, she's regarded as a very serious figure. People say, well, she was the one that helped destroy Native populations. And I don't come across that that often that people say that, but there is that feeling out there, like if she hadn't pointed the way, then maybe none of this Western civilization stuff would have happened. And it just simply isn't true because there was this press of population wanting to go into the new land, and it was always going to happen. In my view, it's very disturbing the way that it happened and how the Native Americans were basically driven off their lands and put onto the reservations and the history of our treatment of Native Americans is not a happy one. But I think that a lot of the people that are closest to her story really appreciate it and they like to tell it and they actually teach it and say, here's an example of a woman who wasn't educated, couldn't read or write, but she was very crucial to the success of this journey. And that's what I always go back to. It's like you could take away some of her legacy, but you got to give her credit for what she did, give the woman credit for what she actually did. And I believe that's the way she would have felt. It's like, don't, you know, name all these things after me and novels and movies and all this. But don't forget who I was, really a real person, just like you. And I got it done. I got my job done.

It sounds like that's a part of her character that you admire.

Yes, very much so. And actually, you know, in Lewis and Clark studies, in the world of Lewis and Clark, the extreme hardcore geeks amongst us, there's a saying about Lewis and Clark, luck. And how many times that they really did luck out. They had certain lucky things happen to them. And I believe the luckiest thing that ever happened to them was having her come along on the expedition, was meeting her, having her along and watching and witnessing from the journals how she kept up with them, how she was able to do her job and do it well, and at the same time carry a baby on her back.

Are there any other questions or any other little topics that you would like to mention?

I wrote a book called the Lewis and Clark Companion, which is an encyclopedic guide to the voyage of discovery. And it's still in print. I think you can still find it. And then this is the one. It's called why Sacagawea Deserves a Day off and Other Lessons from the Lewis and Clark Clark Trail. It's not a big book, but it's one that I think if any of your listeners are interested in learning more about her or learning more about Lewis and Clark, they should pick up a copy. There's also a great website called Discover Lewis and Clark that I tell you if you get into it, you will go down the rabbit hole and you will become what we call a Lewis and Clarky. You will know and understand that this story has so many threads to it. And it's just you never stop learning. If you get into it, you'll never stop learning.

[Rebecca Franks]

That was Stephanie Ambrose Tubbs, author and president of the Lewis and Clark Trust. Thanks for listening. This podcast was produced by Jack Bateman.