History Extra Podcast: "Taking Sides: How the Civil War Turned Friends into Enemies"

Release Date: May 22, 2025
Host: Ellie Cawthorn
Guest: Minu Dinshaw, Author of "Friends in Youth"

Introduction

In the episode titled "Taking Sides: How the Civil War Turned Friends into Enemies," host Ellie Cawthorn delves into the intricate personal and political dynamics of the English Civil War through the lens of Minu Dinshaw's latest book, "Friends in Youth." The discussion centers around two central figures, Bulstrode Whitlock and Edward (Ned) Hyde, whose friendship becomes strained as they find themselves on opposing sides of the burgeoning conflict.

Protagonists Overview

[02:38] Minu Dinshaw:
Dinshaw introduces the two protagonists, Bulstrode Whitlock and Ned Hyde, highlighting their similar backgrounds and initial camaraderie. Both men study law at the Inns of Court, fostering a close personal and professional relationship that becomes pivotal as England edges closer to civil war.

Quote:
"They shared a wide social literary circle of acquaintances... their friendship for some time continued in a very important manner with its impact on the war and its diplomacy." — Minu Dinshaw [02:38]

Formation and Strength of Friendship

[03:31] Ellie Cawthorn:
Cawthorn notes that Whitlock and Hyde are relatively obscure figures in the broader narrative of the Civil War, prompting Dinshaw to explore their stories.

[03:44] Minu Dinshaw:
Dinshaw explains his initial familiarity with Hyde, a prominent historian and chief minister post-Restoration, which led him to uncover Whitlock's equally significant but lesser-known role as a moderate politician on the opposing side.

Quote:
"The story of both of them as contemporaries at the same time was a fresh and rich way of telling the narrative of an extremely important and complex period." — Minu Dinshaw [03:44]

The Title: "Friends in Youth"

[05:00] Minu Dinshaw:
Dinshaw elaborates on the book's title, inspired by Coleridge's poem Christabel. It encapsulates the tragic transformation of a youthful friendship under the strains of political and ideological divides.

Quote:
"Alas for they Were Friends in Youth,... the friendship of young men that gradually comes under pressure because of involuntary events around them was a really haunting and powerful idea for me." — Minu Dinshaw [05:00]

Diverging Paths in the 1640s

[07:08] Ellie Cawthorn:
Cawthorn shifts the focus to the 1640s, questioning the factors that led Hyde and Whitlock to align with opposing factions.

[07:21] Minu Dinshaw:
Dinshaw describes the pivotal moment when Hyde joins King Charles I in York, signifying his royalist allegiance, while Whitlock remains in London, striving to mediate peace with Parliament. This divergence sets the stage for their eventual opposition.

Quote:
"Hyde has decided to leave London to join up with the King in York and Whitlock is staying in London in order to try and be a moderating influence on the Parliament." — Minu Dinshaw [07:21]

Contextualizing the Conflict: King Charles I vs. Parliament

[08:38] Ellie Cawthorn:
Cawthorn requests an explanation of the deteriorating relationship between King Charles I and Parliament.

[08:52] Minu Dinshaw:
Dinshaw provides a historical backdrop, outlining the dysfunctional relationship between the monarchy and Parliament under King James and King Charles I. He emphasizes the shift from relative peace to inevitable conflict due to Charles's inability to govern without Parliament's financial support, leading to the outbreak of civil war.

Quote:
"They saw that the country was peaceful, but they also chafed under that peace." — Minu Dinshaw [09:34]

The Grand Remonstrance: A Turning Point

[17:10] Minu Dinshaw:
Dinshaw identifies the Grand Remonstrance as a critical juncture where party politics deeply entrenched itself in English governance. This event marked the dissolution of the previously unified voice of the House of Commons, leading to irreconcilable divisions.

Quote:
"The Grand Remonstrance was the moment where this fiction, this elegant tradition, could no longer be sustained." — Minu Dinshaw [18:09]

Roles of Hyde and Whitlock in Key Debates

[19:43] Minu Dinshaw:
Dinshaw details Hyde and Whitlock's involvement in political circles. Hyde becomes a leader of the Royalist Church of England Episcopal Party, while Whitlock remains a courtly lawyer in London with connections to both royalist and parliamentarian figures. Their differing stances on the Church and the Grand Remonstrance illustrate their diverging paths.

Quote:
"Hyde despaired earlier than Whitlock did. And Hyde believed the best way to exert a positive influence would be to join the King... whereas Whitlock believed... Parliamentarians would still be easier to influence in a moderating direction." — Minu Dinshaw [12:42]

Personal Relationships Amidst Political Turmoil

[15:11] Minu Dinshaw:
Dinshaw explores how personal relationships persisted despite political enmity. He highlights Whitlock's familial ties to royalist aristocracy and ongoing private communications between Hyde and Whitlock, demonstrating the complexity beyond mere political labels.

Quote:
"Whitlock and Hyde meeting as friends in private and corresponding with each other long after the armies had begun to fight each other." — Minu Dinshaw [15:11]

Diplomacy and Hope Before the War

[16:46] Ellie Cawthorn:
Cawthorn inquires about the possibility of reconciliation before the war escalated.

[17:10] Minu Dinshaw:
Dinshaw reflects on the widespread belief that war could be avoided or would be brief. He points to the optimistic yet ultimately doomed efforts to prevent armed conflict, underscoring the tragic inevitability that unfolded.

Quote:
"Many people at least wanted to believe and told themselves that no real fighting would occur, and even after it clearly would occur, that it would last only for a very short time." — Minu Dinshaw [17:10]

The Treaty of Uxbridge: A Failed Attempt at Peace

[21:58] Minu Dinshaw:
Dinshaw discusses the Treaty of Uxbridge, a significant yet unsuccessful attempt to negotiate peace. He describes the setting in a small manor house and the interplay of various factions, highlighting the personal and performative aspects of the negotiations.

Quote:
"You have people like Whitlock and Hyde... trapped in the middle by stronger, harsher forces." — Minu Dinshaw [24:04]

Aftermath: Lives Post-War

[24:15] Minu Dinshaw:
Post-war, Hyde enjoys a relatively comfortable life in Oxford, albeit plagued by gout, while Whitlock faces more perilous circumstances, including near assassination attempts. The Restoration sees their friendship strained, with lingering grudges and political repercussions affecting their relationship.

Quote:
"They are the ghost, a shadow of a friendship, not much more than that by that point." — Minu Dinshaw [26:59]

Relevance of the Civil War Today

[27:20] Minu Dinshaw:
Addressing contemporary relevance, Dinshaw connects the Civil War to modern political debates like Brexit, suggesting that understanding this period offers insights into current national identity and governance challenges.

Quote:
"The whole Brexit debate was certainly a huge force for me in the composition of this book." — Minu Dinshaw [27:20]

Conclusion

Ellie Cawthorn wraps up the episode by acknowledging the depth of Dinshaw's exploration into a period often overshadowed by the dramatic tales of the Tudors. The nuanced portrayal of Hyde and Whitlock provides a fresh perspective on the English Civil War, emphasizing the personal tragedies intertwined with political upheaval.

Quote:
"What Hyde and Whitlock believed... is that this war was an avoidable tragedy. But it didn't have to be this way." — Minu Dinshaw [28:32]

Note: This summary excludes all advertisements and non-content segments from the original transcript, focusing solely on the substantive discussion between Ellie Cawthorn and Minu Dinshaw.