History Extra Podcast: "The Big Questions of the Holocaust" Summary

Release Date: January 25, 2025
Hosts: Rachel Dinning and Historian Lawrence Rees
Produced by: Immediate Media

Introduction

In the poignant episode released on Holocaust Memorial Day, Rachel Dinning engages with esteemed historian Lawrence Rees to explore the profound and complex questions surrounding the Holocaust. Delving deep into its origins, escalation, and the mechanisms that facilitated one of history's darkest chapters, their conversation offers invaluable insights for both newcomers and those familiar with the subject.

Origins of the Holocaust

[01:52] Rachel Dinning:
Rachel opens the discussion by posing a critical question about the roots of the Holocaust, acknowledging its intricate and challenging nature.

[02:02] Lawrence Rees:
Rees emphasizes the longstanding presence of antisemitism, tracing its roots back to biblical times and highlighting its evolution through the Middle Ages and the Enlightenment. He notes, "Antisemitism has been around for thousands of years... from the Bible to Martin Luther's diatribes against the Jews" [02:15]. Rees discusses the transformation of Germany in the 19th century, where rapid industrialization and unification fostered the Volkisch movement, which idealized rural purity and marginalized Jews as urban outsiders.

He underscores that, "Antisemitism in Germany before WWI didn't predict the Holocaust's horrendous outcome" [04:30], pointing out that widespread pogroms in Russia initially diverted attention, making Germany an unexpected epicenter for the Holocaust.

Antisemitism and Hitler's Rise to Power

[05:44] Rachel Dinning:
Rachel probes the significance of antisemitism in Hitler's ascent.

[05:52] Lawrence Rees:
Rees describes Hitler's antisemitism as "an obsession to virtual pathological levels" [05:55], differentiating it from earlier religious-based prejudices. He explains Hitler's racial ideology, where Jews were deemed a threat to racial purity and national health. Rees elaborates, "Hitler sees Jews as a racial tuberculosis... the world is divided into different racial groups" [06:10].

However, Rees notes a strategic moderation in Hitler's rhetoric as he gains political power, shifting focus towards the ideal of a Volksgemeinschaft (national community) to broaden his appeal [07:00].

Nazi Policies Against Jews Upon Gaining Power

[08:47] Rachel Dinning:
Rachel inquires about Hitler's actions against Jews after securing power in 1933.

[08:54] Lawrence Rees:
Rees outlines the gradual intensification of Nazi policies, starting with the establishment of concentration camps primarily for political opponents. He clarifies misconceptions about early camps like Dachau, stating, "These camps were not initially focused on mass murder but on political oppression" [09:00]. Laws such as the 1935 Nuremberg Laws institutionalized antisemitism by banning Jews from civil service and prohibiting intermarriage [09:30].

Local atrocities intensified, with Nazi Stormtroopers orchestrating violent attacks against Jews in communities [10:00]. Rees recounts personal testimonies, illustrating the widespread humiliation and brutality inflicted on Jewish individuals [10:30].

The Escalation of 1938

[11:32] Rachel Dinning:
Rachel highlights 1938 as a pivotal year for anti-Jewish persecution.

[11:38] Lawrence Rees:
Rees agrees, identifying three major events that year:

1. Anschluss (March 1938): Germany annexed Austria, which had a higher proportion of Jews. Under Adolf Eichmann, Nazis aggressively confiscated Jewish property and attempted forcible emigration [12:00].

2. Kristallnacht (November 1938): Triggered by the assassination of a German diplomat by a Jew in Paris, this pogrom resulted in the destruction of synagogues, mass arrests, and the murder of approximately 100 Jews [12:30].

3. Evian Conference (Summer 1938): International representatives convened to address Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi persecution. Rees criticizes the global inaction, stating, "Evian is going to take substantial numbers of Jews... absolutely doesn't happen" [13:00]. This failure emboldened Hitler, reinforcing his belief in the world's indifference and justifying further radicalization [14:00].

These events collectively marked a radical intensification of antisemitic policies, setting the stage for the Holocaust's further progression [15:00].

The Onset of War and Its Impact on the Holocaust

[16:21] Rachel Dinning:
Rachel shifts focus to the war's commencement and its role in accelerating anti-Jewish policies.

[16:29] Lawrence Rees:
Rees asserts that genocides often coincide with wars, citing the Nazi invasion of Poland in June 1941 as a critical juncture [16:35]. He explains that the Nazis aimed to enslave the Polish population while systematically targeting Jews, resulting in the establishment of ghettos like Lodz [17:00]. Rees emphasizes the dire conditions in these ghettos, where starvation and disease led to massive Jewish deaths, further entrenching Nazi racial ideologies [17:30].

Evolution of Concentration Camps and Gas Chambers

[19:03] Rachel Dinning:
Rachel inquires about the Nazis' "adult euthanasia" policy and its connection to the Holocaust.

[19:13] Lawrence Rees:
Rees discusses the broader scope of the Holocaust beyond the extermination of Jews, including the targeted killing of Sinti, Roma, disabled individuals, and others [19:20]. He details the Nazis' use of gas chambers, initially developed for "euthanasia" of the disabled, which later became the primary method for mass murder [20:00]. Rees highlights the horrifying transformation of medical professionals into perpetrators, rationalizing their actions under the guise of "racial hygiene" [20:30].

He reflects on how trained doctors participated in these atrocities, often justifying their roles by prioritizing the perceived health of the state over individual lives [21:00]. Rees cites Robert J. Lifton’s work to explain the psychological mechanisms that enabled ordinary professionals to commit heinous acts [22:00].

The Invasion of the Soviet Union and Further Radicalization

[24:22] Rachel Dinning:
Rachel asks about the significance of June 1941, the date of Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union.

[24:34] Lawrence Rees:
Rees identifies the invasion as a pivotal moment that intensified genocidal policies [24:40]. With Hitler’s declaration of a "war of extermination," the Nazis began mass shootings and ghettoizations on an unprecedented scale [25:00]. He recounts testimonies of brutal massacres involving entire families, including women and children, underscoring the systematic nature of these atrocities [26:00].

Auschwitz: From Concentration Camp to Death Camp

[26:41] Rachel Dinning:
Rachel seeks clarity on Auschwitz's role in the Holocaust.

[26:48] Lawrence Rees:
Rees portrays Auschwitz as the Holocaust's epicenter, stating, "Auschwitz was never established to do this. It evolved through decisions" [26:55]. Initially a concentration camp for Polish political prisoners, Auschwitz's transformation began with the experimentation using Zyklon B gas originally intended for lice extermination [27:30].

He narrates the gruesome development of gas chambers, detailing the transition to Auschwitz-Birkenau for mass murders and the logistical challenges faced, such as the ghastly separation of bodies from their disposal [28:00]. Rees emphasizes that Auschwitz became a "microcosm" of the Holocaust's systematic extermination [29:00].

The Wannsee Conference and the Final Solution

[32:37] Rachel Dinning:
Rachel inquires about the Wannsee Conference held in January 1942.

[32:48] Lawrence Rees:
Rees clarifies misconceptions surrounding the conference, noting it was not the singular moment when the Holocaust was "decided" [32:50]. Instead, he points to December 1941 as critical, when Hitler vowed the extermination of Jews regardless of war developments [33:00]. The Wannsee Conference, chaired by Reinhard Heydrich, was a bureaucratic effort to coordinate the "Final Solution," focusing on deportations and exterminations [33:30].

Rees outlines the establishment of death camps like Belzec and the use of gas vans as steps towards industrialized killing methods [34:00]. He asserts, "The death camps in Poland were chosen because they housed the largest Jewish populations" [34:30], dispelling false notions that local antisemitism motivated their locations [35:00].

Misconceptions About the Holocaust

[37:56] Rachel Dinning:
Rachel asks Rees to address common misunderstandings about the Holocaust.

[38:05] Lawrence Rees:
Rees identifies several key misconceptions:

1. Singular Focus on Jews: While Jews were the primary victims, other groups like the Sinti, Roma, disabled individuals, and political prisoners also suffered immensely [38:15].

2. Defining Moments: The Holocaust was not the result of a single event but an "evolutionary process" marked by incremental policies and actions [38:45].

3. Inevitability: Rees stresses that the Holocaust was not inevitable, warning against complacency in the face of rising intolerance and racism [39:30].

He shares disturbing anecdotes, including encounters with former SS members who downplay their roles, illustrating the lingering denial and rationalization surrounding these atrocities [39:45].

Conclusion

[40:45] Podcast Host:
Rachel and Lawrence conclude with a call to action, directing listeners to resources for Holocaust Memorial Day and promoting Rees's upcoming masterclass on Nazi Germany [40:50].

[40:45 - 41:00] Lawrence Rees:
Rees leaves listeners with a sobering reminder: "There was never a problem. It was in their heads," underscoring the destructive power of unfounded hatred and ideology [40:55].

Key Takeaways

• Historical Context: The Holocaust was rooted in centuries-old antisemitism, which escalated under Hitler's racially driven ideology.

• Gradual Escalation: Nazi policies against Jews intensified progressively, marked by significant events in 1938 and the onset of World War II.

• Mechanisms of Oppression: The transformation of concentration camps into extermination centers exemplifies the systematic approach to genocide.

• Human Rationalization: Professionals, including doctors, played critical roles in facilitating mass murder by rationalizing their actions under state ideology.

• Complex Legacy: Understanding the Holocaust requires recognizing its multifaceted nature, dispelling myths, and acknowledging the broader spectrum of victims.

Notable Quotes

• Lawrence Rees:

  • "Antisemitism has been around for thousands of years... from the Bible to Martin Luther's diatribes against the Jews." [02:15]

  • "Hitler sees Jews as a racial tuberculosis... the world is divided into different racial groups." [06:10]

  • "Evian is going to take substantial numbers of Jews... absolutely doesn't happen." [13:00]

  • "Auschwitz was never established to do this. It evolved through decisions." [26:55]

  • "There was never a problem. It was in their heads." [40:55]

Further Resources

• Holocaust Memorial Day:
  For more resources on Holocaust Memorial Day, upcoming events, and ways to get involved, visit hmd.org.uk.

• Nazi Germany Masterclass:
  To delve deeper into Nazi Germany, subscribe to Lawrence Rees's six-part masterclass at HistoryExtra.com/NaziGermany.

Produced by Jack Bateman for History Extra Podcast.