The Carolingians: everything you wanted to know

Summary

Summary of "The Carolingians: Everything You Wanted to Know"
History Extra Podcast
Release Date: December 29, 2024

---

Introduction to the Carolingian Empire
Timestamp: [01:56]

Professor Matthew Gabriel, co-author of Oath Breakers alongside David Musgrove, welcomes listeners to the episode focusing on the Carolingian Empire—a pivotal dynasty in Early Medieval Europe. Although the Carolingian dynasty was relatively short-lived, its influence was profound, shaping the political and cultural landscape of Europe for centuries.

Defining the Carolingian Empire
Timestamp: [02:38]

David Musgrove explains that the Carolingians were a ruling dynasty of the Franks, a Germanic people who had interacted with the Roman Empire since the 3rd or 4th century. The Carolingians seized power from the Merovingians in the mid-8th century through a coup d'état, eventually establishing an empire that stretched from northeastern Spain to Denmark and from the English Channel to central Italy.

"The Frankish kingdom was first ruled by the Merovingians until the Carolingians took over, establishing an empire that would span most of Europe at that time."
— David Musgrove ([02:45])

Franks vs. Carolingians: Clarifying the Distinction
Timestamp: [04:23]

Musgrove clarifies that while all Carolingians are Franks, not all Franks were Carolingians. The term "Franks" refers to the people, whereas "Carolingians" identifies the ruling dynasty. The Carolingians adeptly assimilated other groups within their empire by allowing diverse peoples to identify as Franks, thereby consolidating their power.

"All Carolingians are Franks, but not all Franks are Carolingians. The Carolingians were the ruling dynasty among the Franks."
— David Musgrove ([04:30])

The Carolingian Empire vs. the Holy Roman Empire
Timestamp: [05:48]

Musgrove delineates the distinction between the Carolingian Empire and the Holy Roman Empire. The Holy Roman Empire emerged in the late 12th century, with emperors like Frederick Barbarossa claiming continuity from the Carolingian legacy. However, the Carolingians themselves did not conceive of their empire as the "Holy Roman Empire."

"The Holy Roman Empire is a very specific formation that begins in the late 12th century, and while it draws on Carolingian legacy, it is not the same as the Carolingian Empire."
— David Musgrove ([06:03])

Christianity and the Carolingian Identity
Timestamp: [07:28]

The Carolingians were staunch Christians and positioned themselves as guardians of Orthodoxy. They aligned closely with bishops and monasteries, modeling their rule on biblical kings like David and Solomon. This religious identity was central to their authority and governance.

"The Carolingians identified themselves as true Christians, aligning with bishops and monasteries to justify their conquests and rule."
— David Musgrove ([07:36])

Relationship with the Papacy
Timestamp: [08:20]

Musgrove discusses the nuanced relationship between the Carolingians and the papacy. While the Pope was an important religious figure, his authority was not universally recognized across Europe. The Carolingians leveraged papal support to legitimize their rule, exemplified by Pepin the Short's alliance with the Pope to overthrow the Merovingians.

"Pepin the Short sought the Pope's endorsement to legitimize his coup against the Merovingians, demonstrating a mutually beneficial relationship between the Carolingians and the papacy."
— David Musgrove ([08:27])

Importance of the Carolingian Empire
Timestamp: [09:58]

Musgrove emphasizes that understanding the Carolingian Empire is essential to comprehending European history. The empire fostered a sense of unity that influenced politics and culture well into the Middle Ages and beyond. The eventual division of the empire laid the groundwork for the formation of modern European nations like France and Germany.

"It's almost impossible to understand the history of Europe without understanding the Carolingian Empire, as it laid the foundations for many of the political and cultural developments that followed."
— David Musgrove ([10:05])

Geographical Span and the Concept of Unity
Timestamp: [11:24]

Responding to a listener's question, Musgrove outlines the vast territorial expanse of the Carolingian Empire, covering regions that correspond to modern-day Spain, France, Germany, Italy, and beyond. He notes that while the empire encompassed diverse peoples and languages, Latin served as a unifying lingua franca.

"The Carolingian Empire stretched across what are today Spain, France, Germany, Italy, and more, unified primarily by the use of Latin despite the region's linguistic diversity."
— David Musgrove ([11:44])

Relations with Britain
Timestamp: [13:48]

Musgrove touches on the interactions between the Carolingians and Britain, highlighting the movement of scholars like Alcuin from York to Charlemagne's court. These exchanges contributed to the Carolingian Renaissance, fostering a vibrant cultural and educational milieu.

"The Carolingian Renaissance was marked by the movement of scholars from distant regions like Britain to Charlemagne's court, enriching the empire's intellectual landscape."
— David Musgrove ([13:58])

The Carolingian Renaissance
Timestamp: [16:46]

The Carolingian Renaissance refers to a revival of art, culture, and learning under the Carolingians in the 9th century. Musgrove points out that while the term "Renaissance" suggests a rebirth from a prior decline, scholarly work from the period indicates ongoing intellectual activity, particularly in court-sponsored endeavors like copying texts, composing poetry, and developing biblical commentaries.

"The Carolingian Renaissance was not a rebirth from a dark age but rather an unprecedented flourishing of intellectual and cultural activity, driven by court patronage."
— David Musgrove ([16:56])

The Battle of Tours Reassessed
Timestamp: [18:22]

Challenging popular narratives, Musgrove reevaluates the significance of the Battle of Tours (732). Contrary to the belief that it was a decisive clash preventing Islamic expansion into Europe, he describes it as a localized conflict between Merovingian forces and Muslim mercenaries allied with regional Christian rulers. The battle's portrayal as a pivotal moment is overstated, and the interconnectedness of diverse alliances is highlighted.

"The Battle of Tours was more of a localized conflict involving Christian and Muslim mercenaries rather than a decisive battle preventing Islamic dominance in Europe."
— David Musgrove ([18:42])

Charlemagne's Elephant and Inter-Imperial Relations
Timestamp: [20:59]

Musgrove recounts the story of Charlemagne receiving an elephant named Abul Abbas from the Abbasid Caliph Harun Al-Rashid. This gift symbolizes the complex diplomatic relationships of the time, including alliances between Christian and Muslim leaders against common Christian rivals like the Byzantine Emperor.

"Charlemagne's receipt of an elephant from the Abbasid Caliph reflects the intricate and pragmatic alliances that transcended religious boundaries in the medieval world."
— David Musgrove ([21:04])

Linguistic Diversity and Latin as a Unifier
Timestamp: [22:26]

The Carolingian Empire was linguistically diverse, with Latin serving as the common language for administration and scholarship. Musgrove notes that vernacular languages, such as Old High German, were spoken alongside Latin, facilitating communication across the empire's myriad regions.

"Latin functioned as the lingua franca of the Carolingian Empire, enabling communication across its diverse linguistic landscape while vernacular languages thrived alongside it."
— David Musgrove ([22:37])

Key Figures in the Carolingian Dynasty
Timestamp: [24:06]

Musgrove outlines the prominent figures of the Carolingian dynasty, starting with Pepin the Short, followed by his son Charlemagne, and then Charlemagne's son Louis the Pious. The subsequent division of the empire among Louis's sons—Charles the Bald, Louis the German, and Lothar—led to internal strife and the eventual fragmentation of the empire.

"The Carolingian dynasty was characterized by a succession of rulers named Pepin, Charles, and Louis, whose internal conflicts ultimately led to the empire's fragmentation."
— David Musgrove ([24:18])

Women’s Roles and Agency in the Carolingian Empire
Timestamp: [25:59]

Despite the patriarchal nature of the Carolingian society, Musgrove highlights the significant agency of women within the high nobility. He provides examples such as Louis the Pious's sisters, who managed court affairs, and noblewomen like Duoda, whose educated letters reveal their intellectual engagement and influence.

"Women in the Carolingian Empire, particularly those of high nobility, wielded considerable power and influence, often managing court affairs and engaging in intellectual pursuits."
— David Musgrove ([26:08])

Decline and Fall of the Carolingian Empire
Timestamp: [30:08]

The decline of the Carolingian Empire is attributed to the civil war among Louis the Pious's sons in the 840s, culminating in the Treaty of Verdun in 843. This division laid the foundation for modern European nations. Musgrove notes that the empire's end was gradual, with lingering Carolingian rulers fading into obscurity by the late 10th century.

"The Carolingian Empire gradually declined after internal conflicts among Louis the Pious's sons, leading to its fragmentation and the emergence of future European nations."
— David Musgrove ([30:18])

Architectural Legacy of the Carolingian Empire
Timestamp: [33:03]

Musgrove discusses the limited surviving Carolingian architecture, citing Aachen Cathedral—the primary royal chapel built by Charlemagne—as a notable example. Other significant sites include the monastery of Lorsch with its 9th-century gatehouse and the monastery of Moustair in Switzerland, which features a statue of Charlemagne.

"Aachen Cathedral stands as a testament to Carolingian architecture, embodying the empire's artistic and cultural achievements despite the scarcity of surviving structures."
— David Musgrove ([33:03])

Modern Reflection on the Carolingian Empire
Timestamp: [36:36]

Concluding the episode, Musgrove emphasizes the enduring relevance of the Carolingian Empire in understanding medieval history. He advocates for a nuanced appreciation of the period, moving beyond stereotypes of the "Dark Ages" to recognize the intellectual and cultural dynamism fostered by the Carolingians.

"The Carolingian Empire offers a window into a vibrant and complex medieval world, challenging outdated notions and highlighting the period's intellectual and cultural vibrancy."
— David Musgrove ([37:02])

Conclusion and Further Listening
Timestamp: [38:18]

Professor Matthew Gabriel wraps up the episode by referencing his book, War of Brothers that Shattered an Empire and Made Medieval Europe, which delves deeper into the civil war that fragmented the Carolingian Empire. He also encourages listeners to explore related episodes, such as the one featuring Charles West discussing a significant marriage scandal during Lothar II's reign.

---

Notable Quotes:

1. "All Carolingians are Franks, but not all Franks are Carolingians."
   — David Musgrove ([04:30])

2. "Pepin the Short sought the Pope's endorsement to legitimize his coup against the Merovingians."
   — David Musgrove ([08:27])

3. "The Carolingian Renaissance was not a rebirth from a dark age but rather an unprecedented flourishing of intellectual and cultural activity."
   — David Musgrove ([16:56])

4. "Women in the Carolingian Empire, particularly those of high nobility, wielded considerable power and influence."
   — David Musgrove ([26:08])

5. "Aachen Cathedral stands as a testament to Carolingian architecture."
   — David Musgrove ([33:03])

---

This episode of the History Extra Podcast offers an in-depth exploration of the Carolingian Empire, debunking myths, highlighting key figures, and emphasizing the dynasty's lasting impact on European history. Through engaging discussions and expert insights from Professor Matthew Gabriel and David Musgrove, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the complexities and legacy of the Carolingians.

Transcript

[Ad]

This episode is brought to you by Google Gemini. With the Gemini app you can talk live and have a real time conversation with an AI assistant. It's great for all kinds of things like if you want to practice for an upcoming interview, ask for advice on things to do in a new city, or brainstorm creative ideas. And by the way, this script was actually read by Gemini. Download the Gemini app for iOS and Android today. Must be 18 to use Gemini Live.

[Brittany]

This episode is brought to you by Dutch Bros. Big smiles, rocking tunes and epic drinks. Dutch Bros. Is all about you. Choose from a variety of customizable handcrafted beverages like our Rebel energy drinks, coffees, teas and more. Download the Dutch Bros app for a free medium drink plus find your nearest shop, order ahead and start earning rewards Offer valid for new app users only. Free medium drink Reward upon registration. 14 day expiration terms apply. See DutchBros.com 70,000 people are here and.

[Charlie]

Bob Dylan is the reason for it.

[David]

Inspired by the true story if anyone.

[Charlie]

Is going to hold your attention on stage, you have to kind of be a freak.

[David]

Are you a freak? Hope so. And starring Timothee Chalamet as Bob Dylan. He defied everyone. Turn it down. They lied to change everything.

[Emily]

Make some noise.

[David]

BD Timothee Chalamet Edward Norton Elle Fanny Monica Barbaro A complete unknown now playing only in theaters. Rudy Darr Under 1790 minute without parenting.

[Charlie]

You can get the most important meal of the day any time of day. I'm Talking about the $5 big deal breakfast Meal from Jack in the Box, available all day and all night. A breakfast Jack with a freshly cracked egg, a hash brown and French toast sticks for five bucks. Sounds good for breakfast, lunch and dinner at Jack. Every bite's a big deal. Order Jack's five dollar Big Deal Breakfast Meal now.

[Professor Matthew Gabriel]

Welcome to the History Extra Podcast. Fascinating historical conversations from the makers of BBC History magazine. The Carolingian Empire played a crucial role in the development of Europe throughout the Middle Ages. Although the dynasty itself was not that long lived, it was star studded with famous rulers such as Charles Martel and Charlemagne, and its legacy stretched far and wide. In today's Everything youg Wanted to Know episode, Professor Matthew Gabriel, the co author with David Perry of the new book Oath breakers, speaks to David Musgrove to answer all of your questions about this influential Frankish Empire.

[Emily]

First question can you just give us a sense about what do we actually mean when we say the Carolingian Empire? And I suppose the Carolingians?

[David]

Carolingians were a ruling dynasty in the Early Middle Ages, roughly from the middle to the late 8th century, who existed in some form, ruling over some states until, you know, the 10th or 11th centuries. In. In many cases, they came from a group of Germanic peoples called the Franks. The Franks had been kind of known and traded with and interacted with the Roman Empire since, you know, the third or fourth century, eventually settled in kind of around the. The modern Low Countries on the continent, and then started gathering power as kind of Roman power kind of receded back towards the Italian peninsula over the course of. Of what we call Late antiquity. When the kingdom was established, the Frankish kingdom was established. It was first rolled over by a group called the Merovingians, named after their legendary founder, a guy by the name of Merovec. And they ruled until the middle of the 8th century when a new dynasty came in. And this is the Carolingians. This is when we get to the Carolingians. And they eventually established an empire that would span most of Europe at that time, from beyond the Pyrenees into northeastern Spain, Catalonia, around Barcelona, all the way up to Denmark, and then from the English Channel all the way down into central Italy, even extending further to the east to beyond the Rhine and beyond the Danube at times as well. The Carolingians themselves started out as high aristocracy, but they took power specifically from the Merovingians in a coup d'etat, and they successfully ruled for again, for several centuries before kind of a civil war broke the empire apart around that time, as with the Merovingians, they're simply named after one of their great founders. Charles in Latin is Carolus. And so we have the nomenclature of the Carolingians.

[Emily]

One thing that a lot of people ask is, are the Franks synonymous with the Carolingians? Are those two terms one and the same?

[David]

Yeah. So all Carolingians are Franks, but not all Franks are Carolingians, because Franks are the name of the people, and the Carolingians are the ruling dynasty. So the ruling dynasty themselves were all Franks. They came from this group of people. Now, who the Franks were, that's a really fraught kind of topic about kind of what is an ethnic group. What does kind of a political grouping look like in the early Middle Ages? Because it has something to do with blood a little bit, but it also has to do with kind of general affiliation. And what I mean by that, the Carolingians were actually really good at this, is assimilating other peoples into their empire by allowing them to call themselves Franks. And in fact, you often see in some of our sources, especially in the 9th century, during the height of Carolingian power, you have sources referring to themselves with multiple sets of identities, saying that they were a Christian, a Lombard and a Frank, or an Alemanian and. And a Frank. And it didn't really seem to bother anybody that people could hold these things simultaneously in their head. But in some ways, I mean, it should make sense because it gained you something by associating yourself with the rulers of the empire. By calling yourself a Frank, it gave you access to power and patronage, especially if you were a noble or a churchman or something like that, in a way that other types of affiliations wouldn't have in this empire.

[Emily]

It's fascinating to think about how people might have identified and thought of themselves in this period. Really difficult questions to grapple with. One more on nomenclature, though, that people are asking a lot about. Is, is the Carolingian Empire the same as the Holy Roman Empire?

[David]

No. That's the short answer is no, they are not the same thing. The Holy Roman Empire is a very specific formation of empire that begins really in the late 12th century and which the Latin terms of the Sacrum Imperium Romanum, the Holy Roman Empire, the Holy Empire of the Romans, is first used by the Emperor Frederick Barbarossa, Frederick I, later ON in the 12th century, Frederick made a big deal, and especially successors of tying themselves back to the Carolingian Empire and showing continuity. But the Carolingians themselves would have no idea. The Carolingians would have, in the 9th centuries, thought of their empire as holy, but they weren't necessarily thinking of it as putting those two titles together. And what I mean by that is that the empire was always Frankish, it was Roman, in that it was tied to the empire of Trajan and Constantine and stuff like that. And Charlemagne, kind of the great ruler of the Franks, one of the progenitors of the line, was crowned emperor in Rome on Christmas Day in the year 800. But he was doing something different with his identity. And that was never kind of a superlative title, meaning that it was in a title, being the emperor that kind of effaced his fact that he was always first and foremost a king of the Franks, as well as a king of the Lombards and people like that. So the identity that was created for Barbarossa and for rulers that lasted until the time of Napoleon was something a little bit different than what was going on in the 9th century.

[Emily]

And just picking up on the holy bit there, though, the Carolingian Empire was Christian, right? That was the religion of the Carolingians.

[David]

Absolutely. Yeah. The Carolingians were Christian. In fact, they thought of themselves. They identified themselves as kind of true Christians in a way of justifying, for example, conquests of other Christian people. The Lombards were bad Christians, the Aquitanians were bad Christians. And so they were very happy in the rhetoric to position themselves as kind of guardians of Orthodoxy, aligning themselves with bishops and monasteries and things of that nature. So the Carolingians did think of themselves as kind of holy rulers, but their model went back to kind of biblical Israel is that they were modeling themselves on kind of the Davidic kings, David and Solomon of ancient Israel, and not necessarily kind of tying themselves to any sort of justification that they would need from the papacy or from Rome in that way.

[Emily]

And what was the relationship with the papacy and Rome then? Was that not quite the same as we might imagine today?

[David]

Yeah, no. I mean, one of the problems when we think about religion in the Middle Ages, we oftentimes think about kind of modern instantiations of kind of what's now Roman Catholicism. And what I mean by that is that there's kind of a pope at the top of this hierarchy, and he kind of tells everybody else, you know, who's a Christian, kind of what they can do and they can't. In the early Middle Ages, and really until the 12th century, but certainly in the time of the Franks, the Pope's just a really important bishop. Rome is an important city, and the bishop of Rome is an important position, but he doesn't really have any moral or spiritual authority that anybody north of the Alps would really have to listen to if they really didn't want to. He becomes a convenient tool, especially for the Carolingians, when they need to justify their rule. However, and in fact, one of the ways that the Carolingians kick off their empire is Pepin the short Charlemagne's father, sends a letter to Rome, to the bishop of Rome, and asks a very rhetorical question. Who should have power in a kingdom? Should it be the person who actually, you know, kind of controls the armies, or should it be the person who inherits the position of my blood? The idea being that Pepin is saying, like, I should really have power over the Merovingians who have been sitting on the throne but aren't doing anything? And the Pope very astutely reads the room and says, like, no, Pepin, you're right. You're the one who should hold power in this way. And, in fact, if you were to send an army to help me against the Lombards who are troubling my lands, In Italy, I would be very, very grateful for that. And so very much a quid pro quo thing happens in which Pepin gets this institutional backing that he wants to legitimize the coup d'etat and Pope gets an army to help him against Lombards.

[Emily]

Now, here's like, a really easy question for you. Why was the Carolingian Empire important?

[David]

It's almost impossible to understand the history of Europe without understanding something about the Carolingian Empire. There is a sense of unity that the empire creates that animates a lot of the politics and culture of Europe throughout the rest of the Middle Ages and even into modernity. Like I was talking about, you know, a few moments ago with the Holy Roman Empire. Although they're not the same empire, the people in the 12th and 13th and 14th and subsequent centuries were very much enamored of the idea that they could recreate the greatness of Charlemagne. And so it drove a lot of their politics, just the way that they patronized certain capitals, the way that they governed, the examples that they look to. And then almost in a paradoxical way, when the empire split up in the 840s, which is the subject of the new book that me and David Perry have, it really divided Europe in a way that eventually, after a long and very complicated one path, would lead us to places that we have today, like France and Germany and Italy, because the empire divided roughly and again, very roughly, kind of along those lines. So the idea both that the empire could be recreated and the idea that the empire has irrevocably split were ways that the Carolingians seeded the legacy of Europe as it developed for millennium and more afterwards.

[Emily]

Now, that slightly answers or gives a sense of an answer to a question that we've had from cj@pitrefoyasuizo. I'm not sure how that's correctly pronounced, but CJ wants to know how many countries did the empire span? I presume he wants to know the countries that exist today and wants to know whether it can be considered the predecessor of the European Union. So what's your line on that?

[David]

It's a great question. It's a complicated one. Certainly the eu. I mean, one of the biggest prizes that the EU gives out every year is the Charlemagne Prize. Right. Like, they're very conscious of this kind of legacy and understand. Understand what the Carolingians kind of did for the idea of European unity, even if it was at the point of a sword that Charlemagne quote unquote, united most of Europe. I think it's a little Bit difficult to say that it's a predecessor of the EU in that way. And what I mean by that is that we don't have things that can really be qualified as nations. In the early Middle Ages. We have groupings of people and we have power centers. And Charlemagne and the Carolingians were kind of the most powerful group in that period. And so they ruled over a vast region of territory, but it was really primarily the way that they conceived power was it was ruling over a vast diversity of peoples. So Alemanians and Lombards and Aquitanians and Saxons and Bavarians. And so the borders, these nice kind of bright borders that we often see on maps about the extent of European kingdoms or empires, are really more of an idea than anything kind of concrete. Whereas now, you know, there's a border crossing when you move across a national line, or there's a geographic region that kind of really divides this place from that place, or a river or mountain range or something like that. In the Middle Ages, it was more about kind of where. Where could you be felt as a ruler, where could you exert your authority? Whereas today, we can very easily kind of superimpose what we think was the extent of Charlemagne's power on a map of Europe today. And we could say it, you know, encompass Spain and France and Switzerland and Belgium and the Netherlands and Germany and parts of Denmark and parts of Italy, parts of Hungary, maybe even parts of the Balkans as well. They weren't thinking of it in that way, because you had Franks in all those places, and you had Alemannians in many of those places, and you had Lombards moving around, and even the power of the Franks being felt across the English Channel. In England, though Charlemagne never claimed that territory by any stretch of the imagination. There were certainly like it mattered where there were Franks and where Charlemagne's reach could be felt.

[Emily]

You've just mentioned England there, so I feel obliged to just hop in there. What did the Carolingians think of Britain? Do we know anything about relations across the Channel?

[David]

I don't want to say they were kind of good or bad. There were relations, I'll say that. And what I mean by that is that it seemed like people moved back and forth pretty freely. One of the great figures at Charlemagne's court at the end of the 8th century and into the early 9th century was a guy by the name of Alcuin, who came from York. You know, he's a monk from Northumbria, spent his time up there, and then eventually came south and got attracted to Charlemagne's court, which was trying to attract very consciously, kind of the greatest minds of the time there, patronizing them and creating a literary culture, culture of education around the king and his advisors. And Alcuin stayed, and he was by far not the only one. And that's one of the really interesting things that I think you see about the Carolingian empire that's often overlooked is we had this term a long time ago called the Carolingian Renaissance. And that's problematic in its own ways, but it does capture something about the fact that people moved throughout this empire and came from places very far away, even this tiny backwards island across the English Channel, as the Carolingians would see it. Of course, at the time, the rulers in England certainly were very conscious of, you know, what was going on on the Contin. And there's one kind of famous moment in which it seems like Charlemagne's about to marry his eldest son off to one of the kings in the British Isles and it kind of falls through. And that kind of sours things for a little while. It's a little bit unclear about why that falls through or exactly what's going on, but these people were, you know, the kings in England were very much kind of thought of not on par, but certainly, you know, worth parlaying with from the Carolingian perspective.

[Greg]

Looking for a pickup truck to get just about anything done, look no further. The Chevy Silverado EV isn't just the most powerful Silverado ever with next level towing capability and technology. It also offers game changing versatility with the available multiflex midgate and tailgate. Which means Silverado EV helps you carry large, bulky and oddly shaped items up to nearly 11ft in length. Chevrolet Together, let's drive. Visit Chevrolet.com to learn more.

[Hannah]

This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Upgrade your business with Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. Shop pay boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning fewer carts going abandoned and more sales going cha ching. So if you're into growing your business, get a commerce platform that's ready to sell wherever your customers are. Visit shopify.com to upgrade your selling today.

[David]

Oh, such a clutch off season pickup Dave. I was worried we'd bring back the same team. I meant those Blackout motorized shades. Blinds.com made it crazy affordable to replace our old blinds. Hard to install? No, it's easy. I installed these and then got some from my mom. She talked to a design consultant for free and scheduled a professional measure and install hall of fame son. They're the number One online retailer of custom window coverings in the world, blinds.com is the goat shop.

[Brittany]

Up to 45% off select styles plus.

[Ad]

A free professional measure during the blinds.com year end blowout. Rules and restrictions may apply.

[Emily]

You just mentioned the Carolingian Renaissance, so we're going to skip on to a question we've had on that, which was what was the Carolingian Renaissance? It sounds like that's. It's a term that perhaps is somewhat outmoded.

[David]

The Carolingian Renaissance is a really interesting idea. One of the reasons it's kind of problematic is just the term Renaissance itself, because it implies a rebirth from something that had been dead before. Meaning that when this kind of efflorescence of learning, as the old story went, happened in the late 8th and early 9th century, nobody had been doing any learning before then. It's just not true. Right. Like there were centers of learning at monasteries and lots of educated people write some really interesting sources that we still have today that kind of tell that story. But I think what's lost there sometimes in that scholarly jettisoning of that term is the fact that there was a lot of intellectual work that was being done by the Carolingians, primarily around the court, but influenced by the court in all regions of the empire. That really is kind of unprecedented. And that happens in the 9th century. Copying of texts, and not just in monasteries, copying of texts and monasteries, but not just the copying, the using the production of new commentaries on the Bible, the creation of new philosophical text, this incredible outpouring of poetry that's written in this period. And we have several volumes of it and many more that just haven't been kind of cataloged yet. Other sorts of historical works, works about history that hadn't been written in a long time. All of that stuff is kind of going on, both tied to, again, kind of Charlemagne's capital at Aachen, but also to outlying areas that were trying to kind of emulate that type of learning that was going on the court.

[Emily]

Great. Now look, we've missed a question, so we're slightly chronologically out of kilter, but let's go back to it because it's one that a lot of people are interested in, which was about the Battle of Tor. People want to know about the Battle of Tor and how important that was in the story of the empire. Can you help us out on that? What was the Battle of Tor? When was it? And should we care about it?

[David]

We should care about it. Whether we should care about it in the way that we do Is that's maybe a different question. Even growing up in the United States, you know, in upstate New York, like I heard about the Battle of Tornado, this was a critically important battle in Western history in which the old story goes that if Charles Martel, who is actually the progenitor of the Carolingian line, and he's the Carolus from which we get Carolingian in 732, hadn't defeated the Muslims, Muslim invaders from across the Pyrenees, then, you know, Europe would have been Islamic at that time. That is a story that is told even, unfortunately to this day, it's one that is still used to inspire violence. A Christchurch shooter in New Zealand who did his horrific acts was inspired by, in fact, had written Charles Martel 732 on his weapon. So this is a story that's very well told. The reality is much more complicated. And in fact, I mean, it's interesting in its own way, but relatively insignificant in the history of Europe, because what 732 was, what the Battle of Tours actually was, was a squabble between the Merovingian rulers with an army that was sent south by Charles Martell and the Christian ruler of Aquitaine at the time. And what had happened was basically is the Franks wanted to extend their power south into Aquitaine. The Christian ruler of that region did not want him to do so, but ended up needing help because he had annoyed another regional ruler who had hired Islamic mercenaries. And the Islamic mercenaries were kind of raiding through the countryside. And so what happens at Tours was just kind of a relatively small kind of pitch battle between some Islamic mercenaries who had moved. Moved north and a Frankish army, and the Franks won. And then they proceeded to ignore the Muslims for the rest of their campaign and fight against the Christians in Aquitaine. And what this really shows, if you actually look at it, what's really kind of important to understand about the battle is the complex networks of affiliation in which it was fine for Christians to hire Muslim mercenaries, it was fine for Muslims to work with Christians at the time. And real kind of lines of dissension or battle at that time were simply between different Christian rulers about who extended authority in this region or that region. It was not in any way, shape or form, kind of the beginnings of holy war or beginnings of any sort of kind of religious confrontation. And the sources at the time are extremely clear that that's what's going on.

[Emily]

Am I right in thinking that Charlemagne received an elephant from an Islamic ruler at one point?

[David]

He did, indeed. Abu L Abbas, yes. Shortly after the year 800, the Caliph Harun Al Rashid from Baghdad sent as a gift an African elephant that made its way somehow across North Africa, across the Mediterranean, up through. Walked up through Italy, over the Alps, and showed up as a gift of the caliph. And Abalobass does indeed kind of accompany Charlemagne on his campaigns. He ends up dying. The only reason we know this is because he's not mentioned a whole lot in the sources, but it's mentioned in the Royal Frankish Annals, one of these histories that I mentioned earlier, that he dies in Saxony about 10 years later, and it's a great period of mourning for the Franks. So he must have been kind of like the household, not the pet of the emperor, but he was there. But what really shows, and I mean, why that incident is important, is because Charlemagne enjoyed really pretty good relations with the caliph in Baghdad. And the reason for that is because he didn't get along very well at the time with the Byzantine emperor, the Christian Byzantine emperor in Constantinople. And Charlemagne was kind of pressing claims in southern Italy against the Byzantines and wanted the support of the Abbasids, the caliph in Baghdad, to kind of press the Byzantines on their eastern flank, to kind of distract them so that Charlemagne could carry out his political ambitions. And both of them mutually benefited from this. Again, kind of a Christian and a Muslim making an alliance against another Christian ruler. This is not what we expect of the Middle Ages, and yet it would seem to be fairly common at the time.

[Emily]

Now, you've mentioned already that the empire was pretty diverse in its geographical spread and in the number of peoples that existed within it. Does that mean that there were a lot of different languages? Was there a lingua franca?

[David]

Yes. So the common language was Latin. Latin was still a spoken language at this time. It was certainly the language that was in writing and reading and things of that nature. What's really interesting, though, is that we get these hints that there were other native language or other vernaculars, I should say, that were spoken throughout the empire, and those could be quite different from one another. Einhard, one of Charlemagne's biographers, who wrote shortly after his death, for example, that Charlemagne was very fond of hearing tales in Old High German or in the Old German language. So that's a hint that there was something else kind of going on, that there was kind of a Frankish language that was Germanic in origin that was being spoken and certainly listened to at Charlemagne's court later on during the civil war. There's a famous moment there where two brothers who are on the same side, they come together to kind of cement their alliance against another brother who they're fighting with. And they take oaths to one another. They, as kings and their armies, at the same time, take oaths. And they swear them both in kind of French and German. And it's not exactly French or German. It's some sort of vernacular that would eventually become, after many centuries, French and German. But it's clear that the empire is a very linguistically diverse place. And in fact, because it's made up of a bunch of peoples, and you needed that universal language of Latin in order to unify them so that they could actually communicate with one another. Because although the elites, again, would be speaking Latin, you know, the vast majority of other people would be speaking their own different types of languages.

[Emily]

Now, you've mentioned Charlemagne a few times. He's clearly kind of the main guy in this story. Who else are the sort of the figures that people should know about in the story of the Carolingian Empire? Obviously there's loads, but who would you pick?

[David]

The great thing about the Carolingians is they have like three names for all of their rulers. Charles, Louis and Pepin. And then every once in a while, there's kind of a Lothar or Carloman thrown in there, but it's mostly Charles, Louis and Pepin. So you start with Pepin, named the Short, and then he has a son, takes over by the name of Charlemagne, or Charles the Great, Carolus Magnus. And then he has a bunch of sons, but only one survives to succeed him, and that's Louis, Louis the Pious. And he rules until 840. And then he has three sons who live to succeed him when he dies. And that's when the civil war I mentioned breaks out. And that's Charles the Bald, who is his youngest, Louis the German, who is the middle one, and Lothar, who is the eldest, and becomes the co Emperor and eventually succeeds him as emperor. And then from there, you know, then you have branching different dynasties, because after the Civil War, Charles kind of ruled, rules the western part of the empire, this region we would eventually call France. Louis the German rules the eastern part, a region roughly what we would call Germany. And the Lothar kind of gets these middle bits. And then Lothar's kingdom kind of gets chipped away by various things after his death and stuff like that. But then, you know, it's just kind of more Charles's and Pepin's and Louis kind of all the way down from there. So all these names kind of continue until Charles the Fat, who rules the very end of the 9th century, he eventually gets deposed, and then really after that, the empire state divided after that. But the big guys, you know, when we say the Carolingians, we oftentimes are talking about kind of the first three or four generations. So Pepin the Short, who seizes power from the Merovingians? Charlemagne, his son, Louis the Pious, and then three sons of Louis the Pious who survived, Charles the Bald, Louis the German, and Lothar.

[Emily]

Okay, so that's a load of men. Would I be right in thinking that this is a very patriarchal society? Did women have much agency, as far as you can understand?

[David]

It is. It is a very patriarchal society, I think when we're talking about the Carolingians themselves. But when we dive down just a little bit, when we kind of scratch the surface at the level of kind of the high nobility or the nobility, you can see how actually powerful women could be in their own right, how they had agency and how they were oftentimes kind of shunted to the side because of how powerful they could be and what authority they could wield within the Carolingian empire. I'll give you two quick examples about this, is that one is that when Charlemagne dies, the only son who's left alive, only legitimate son, I should say, who's left alive is Louis the Pious. Louis is the youngest. He is almost certainly Charlemagne's least favorite child for a variety of reasons. He's kind of shunted off to the region of Aquitaine. He's named King of Aquitaine. When Charlemagne is clearly sick and dying, he is not allowed to return to Aachen. And so there's really some question about whether he's going to actually succeed, even though he's been named kind of the successor. Is there going to be another kind of coup? Is there going to be another high noble who's just going to seize power at the court and take things over? And Louis very aware of this. So when he gets wind that Charlemagne, his father, has died, he moves very cautiously north, and he kind of moves very deliberately to kind of secure the loyalty of some really key nobles along the way. And one of the first things he does when he finally gets to Aachen is he seizes his sisters, who had been at Aachen the entire time, and banishes them to nunneries. We just don't hear about them. Again, what scholars like Janet Nelson and others have argued, and I think extraordinarily persuasively, is that they were running the show, they were running the empire, or at least running the court on behalf of their father for probably at least a few Years, and maybe even longer than that. And they had built up extensive networks of power and patronage that they themselves controlled. And Louis was aware of that and was terrified of it, and so knew that the power that they wielded could really threaten the legitimacy of his rule. He didn't know how they would react. He was off kind of in Aquitaine doing his thing, and that they were back at the court. We don't have any sources that tell the daughter's side of the story, though, so oftentimes we're forced to kind of rely on Louis side of the story. We have a number of sources about his succession, but you can even see the tensions, I think, in what's going on in his really troubled relationship with his sisters, even in the sources that are very positive about him. The other example comes from a little bit later, in the middle of the civil war, is we have an extraordinary letter or manual that was written by a noblewoman by the name of Duoda. And this is the text that was authored by a noblewoman sent to her son who is being held captive by Charles the Bald. And when I say captive, what I mean is that her son is a member of Charlotte's court and is kind of being kept there to ensure the loyalty of Duoda's family. Duoda and her husband, this guy by the name of Bernardo Septimania, controlled a really important area in what's now southern France. But William, her eldest son, is at Charles the Bald's court to ensure, in this civil war, Bernard stays loyal to Charles the Bald. But we have this letter from her, and the letter is just such an extraordinary document because it's so, on the one hand, deeply personal about the care and the love and the fear that a woman feels, this mother feels for her son. But. But it's extraordinarily learned in a way that I think has really troubled our expectations about what Carolingian women could be like or Frankish women could be like in that way. It is filled with allusions to classical literature. It shows an intense and deep understanding of not just the Bible, but of biblical commentaries that were being written by contemporaries in monasteries and the circulation of texts that must have happened at that time and how she had access to them even way down in kind of southwestern France at that time. So these types of things, I think, speak to a much more robust way of understanding women in the Frankish Empire than is often kind of characterized.

[Emily]

That's really interesting. It comes across very well in your book, I think. I'm sure this is a question of academic debate. And discussion. But when, in your view, did the empire end and what brought it down?

[David]

Oh, man. Yeah. There seems to be kind of a general consensus that failure of Charles the Fat at the end of the 9th century is really kind of the end of the Carolingian experiment, for lack of a better term. That's when we date the end of the Carolingian Empire. And the reason for that, too, is because you start to see in the different regions, rulers who aren't Carolingians start to become kings. So in Italy, in the east, in East Francia, which we would call Germany today, and in West Francia, what we would call France today, dynasties like the Rebertians, the Ottonians, later on in the East. The thing that gives me pause, though, is that even by the end of the 10th century, certainly there's still a Carolingian, at least somewhere, who's holding power over something. The short version of this is that the Carolingian empire doesn't really end with a bang, but with a whimper in that it kind of just peters out and blends into other dynasties and kind of fades into obscurity. People are aware that the Carolingians are no longer around, and sometimes this causes great consternation, you know. But even in the middle of the 10th century, there's a tract by this guy by the name of Adso who's writing about the Antichrist. And, you know, is the Antichrist going to appear anytime soon? And he's writing to this woman by the name of Gerberga, who is a queen. And even in the middle of the 10th century, when he's writing this, it's like Gerbera's husband is a Carolingian, and he has just returned to the throne, and he's going to rule, and his son's going to rule for a little while as Carolingians. So it's really problematic to kind of put a hard and fast date or date to stop it. What I will say that kind of leads to the whimpering, if you will, or the beginning of the end is the civil war that erupts among the grandsons of Charlemagne under Louis the Pious Sons. And that takes place in the 840s, the early 840s. It's kind of famously, supposedly ends in 843 with the treaty of Verdun, which kind of divides the empire into three parts. But it begins almost immediately after Louis the pious death in 840, and then kind of culminates in this massive, bloody battle, literally brothers fighting against brothers, uncles and nephews. Families torn apart and Fontenoy in June of 841. And that kind of irrevocably, kind of breaks this myth of unity. They don't know that it can't be recovered. But I think looking back, we can tell, like, the empire is kind of on its last legs after that.

[Emily]

Okay, well, we're not quite done with the empire just yet. In this podcast, there's a couple more things I want to ask you about. This is from Simsbury. Mike, who asks what are the best buildings or ruin to see from this empire. And he talks about arc and having the throne of Charlemagne, wants to know if there are any other places. Now, I happen to know that even though you are in the States, you have been over here having a look around. So any ideas?

[David]

I have? Yeah, yeah. It's one of the great things about being a medievalist, even in the United States, is you have an excuse. Oh, darn. I have to go traipse around Europe every once in a while. Yeah, it's a really great question. Unfortunately, I don't have a great answer because there's not a lot of Carolingian stuff left. Carolingian palaces, which tended to be made of stone, for example, and they had lots of palaces, we know that from the sources. They tended to be either in the kind of the middle of nowhere and so were destroyed by the ravages of time or kind of reused for scrap, or there were pretty destructive wars on the continent in the middle of the 20th century which destroyed a lot of things. Or if they were in cities, they were rebuilt in different styles kind of later on. So there isn't a lot of kind of Carolingian architecture. The best one is Aachen, right? Is the palace chapel at Aachen is absolutely. That is a Carolingian building from the 9th century. It was built by Charlemagne himself. The interior decorations, a lot of them have been kind of redone or reconstructed from, you know, from the 19th century. Though some of the relics that are there and some of the gold work, especially in the Treasury Cathedral, are really spectacular and due date from the Carolingians. The other two that I would suggest that are really kind of neat and interesting is at the monastery of Lorsch. There is an old gatehouse that's still standing at the monastery, and that is absolutely a 9th century gatehouse that has been built there. It's very sturdy and kind of impressive. And I don't want to say overbearing, but it just kind of looms over you. And that's particularly interesting because it still maintains some of the interior. At least the interior layout that it would have in the 9th century, meaning that it's a big gatehouse and then up above there's kind of a meeting hall. And that would have been kind of the welcoming to this imperial. It was an imperial monastery, would have been a welcoming place for revered guests like the emperor or something like that, to meet the abbots and the monks and things of that nature. So you can get a little bit of a sense of what interior of a Carolingian place would be. The other one I would mention, and actually I'll mention two more, is there's a monastery in Moustair in modern Switzerland. It's a little bit unclear about whether the architecture of the monastery itself is Carolingian. I think it's probably a little bit later than that, though, maybe kind of evokes the Carolingians. What's neat about Muster, though, is that there's, as far as we can tell, I think, an actual statue of Charlemagne that's there. So you have a sense of what people there were kind of trying to present Charlemagne as. And it looks very much like Einhard describes him, like he has a little crown and a big bushy mustache and even a little potbelly and stuff like that. But some of the decorations in Moustair are probably Carolingian there as well. And then the other one, it's not Carolingian, I have to say, but it is kind of from the period, is that there's a couple places in Rome which underwent a kind of a building boom under the. Not the patronage of Charlemagne, but maybe the kind of the watchful eye of Charlemagne in which there's 9th century mosaics and 9th century cathedrals that are still there. And so those types of things are very interesting, especially because how distinctively Western they are, but at the same time very Byzantine in their outlook. And I think that really shows the interconnectedness of the early medieval world in that although Charlemagne's palace was in Aachen in western Germany and pretty far north, this was a guy who cared about what happened in Rome and also cared about what happened in Constantinople and even in far off Baghdad and knew about those things. This was part of a very permeable medieval world in which people actually did move back and forth between them. And the goings on in the Byzantine Empire of the Abbasid Caliphate really mattered even to the Franks in Norway, Northern Europe.

[Emily]

Great. Well, that's a really nice little geographical tour that Simsbury Mike can have a grow at. That sounds like a good trip. To me. Now, before we finish, let me throw you a bone, see if you got an answer to this. You know, a few years ago, there was this meme about men thinking all the time about the Roman Empire. Do you, as an early medievalist, do you think that men should really be thinking all about the Carolingian Empire and let's just broaden out? Not just men. Should everyone be thinking about the Carolingian Empire?

[David]

Oh, yeah, I think everybody should be thinking about the Carolingian Empire. I think about the Carolingian Empire every day. But that is part of my job, I guess. And really what attracted me to the study of the early Middle Ages, way back when, was how knowable this period is. Oftentimes the early Middle Ages are characterized stereotypically as the Dark Ages. And that classification comes from the idea that it's cloaked in shadow, that we just don't. We can't know a whole lot about this period, but we really can, and especially about the Carolingians, because these guys were prolific writers. We have a real sense of kind of how they thought the world was and how it worked from this period. And so we can reconstruct with pretty good certainty kind of what we think was going on. And as I was talking about with not just the kind of the geographical diversity, but also this included women. It included. They cared about children. They understood that. That there were people of different races who existed out there in the world, people of different religions, and they didn't think about them in the ways that we did. And I'm not saying it was kind of a paragon of virtue or, you know, tolerance or anything like that, because they. Carolyn, just loved killing people, I'll tell you that. But at the same time, like, there were other ways of being, and they understood them and they thought about them. And it is, at the very least, just a fascinating period that we can know something about.

[Professor Matthew Gabriel]

That was Professor Matthew Matthew Gabriel. His book, written with David M. Perry, is called the War of Brothers that Shattered an Empire and Made Medieval Europe. The book explores the Civil War that broke up the Carolingian empire in the mid 9th century. And for more on major moments that rocked the Carolingian world, then be sure to check out our episode with Charles west about the marriage scandal that destroyed the reign of Lothard ii. You can find the link to that episode in the description of this one. Thanks for listening. This podcast was produced by Jack Bateman.

[Isabella]

At New Balance. We believe if you run, you're a runner, however you choose to do it. Because when you're not worried about doing things the right way. You're free to discover your way. And that's what running is all about. Run your [e-mail] running.

[David]

Hablas espanol spritz du Joy if you've heard that sound.

[Isabella]

From Babbel before, I bet you do. Babbel is the science backed language learning app app that actually works with quick 10 minute lessons. Handcrafted by over 200 language experts. Babbel gets you on your way to speaking a new language in just a few weeks with over 16 million subscriptions sold and a 20 day money back guarantee. Just start speaking another language with Babbel right now. Up to 55% off your Babbel subscription at babbel.com Spotify podcast spelled B A B-B-E-L.com Spotify podcast rules and restrictions may apply.