Emily Briffett (4:11)

And how different was this dynasty to its forebears, to its ancestors that it's descended from?

Professor Nandini Chatterjee (4:18)

So the ancestry that the Mughals were proudest of was the Timurid one. And I already mentioned Amir Timur. Amir Timur was a fearsome Central Asian conqueror who, among other places that he invaded, also invaded Northern India in the 14th century and left behind a trail of destruction and carried away hundreds of thousands of enslaved people. Now, the Timurid culture was centered around the headquarters in the city of Samarkand in Uzbekistan. Today, the Mughals shared much with the Timurids of Central Asia, including, for example, their attachment to Persian language as the language of court and culture. They shared in the attachment to calligraphy, to certain building styles, and so on. And warriors and elites from Central Asia continued to travel to South Asia during the Mughal Empire's rule. But on the other hand, the Mughals could not be more different. Having settled down in India, intermarried with local elites, they acculturated and in fact, created something perhaps unparalleled because, among other things, the Mughals were the only Islamic dynasty in the world that throughout its career, ruled over a majority population of non Muslims. So, in fact, the career of the Mughals coincided with the tremendous cultural efflorescence in South Asia, which was a unique blending, we should say, of Indic and Persianate cultures and also a blend of their what they had brought with them and what they had found in India and had developed.

Emily Briffett (6:03)

And this unique blend is something that I'm sure we'll come on to as we talk. But I'm just curious. We have a question from a listener, and they've just asked, where does the word Mughal come from?

Professor Nandini Chatterjee (6:16)

That's a very interesting question. And I've been looking into it myself for a while. And for the listener, there isn't a definitive answer. But I'll tell you what I do know. The first thing to know is that the dynasty never used the term for itself. They were very proud of being descendants of Amir Timur. So they actually called themselves Timurias or Timurids. They also refer to themselves as Gurganias. Gurgaon, I understand, is a Mongol word for son in law. And that relates to the fact that they claim to be descended from a daughter of Genghis Khan on the maternal line. So for the Mughals themselves, they were not Mughals at all. Possibly the word was invented and applied to them by European travelers. And it looks like the earliest usage of the term in South Asia is probably from the 15th or 16th centuries. And it's probably the Portuguese who use it for the first time. And they use the term with an R at the end, moghor or mogul. And then that's taken up by other Europeans, including the British, and eventually about in the late 18th century, it starts gaining some currency in South Asia itself. The word Mughal was not popular among the people we call the Mughals now because it's a derivative of Mongol. Mongol, despite their claim to be descended from Chingis Khan, suggested barbarity, violence and lack of civilization. That is not what the Mughals wanted to be known as. They saw themselves as cosmopolitan representatives of the acme of civilization. Hence it's probably a pejorative conflation with bloodthirsty warriors, roughly of Central Asia, that Europeans use the term as, and that's probably what has stuck. But once again, I have to say I haven't found any absolutely established scholarship on the subject. So what you're hearing is very at the edge of scholarship.

Emily Briffett (8:25)

It's really important to clarify while we're talking about these origins, the origins of terms, could we just establish when and how was the empire founded?

Professor Nandini Chatterjee (8:36)

So, officially, the Mughal Empire was founded by an invasion by the Central Asian prince and warrior Zahiruddin Mohammed Babur. Babur had tried to invade India previously. India. And I should clarify for listeners, I'm using the term loosely. It refers to the undivided subcontinent, which would include the nation states of Pakistan, India as well as Bangladesh. Now, so Babur was a prince of a minor principality at the border between Afghanistan and Uzbekistan, a place called Farghana. And he lost his father at the age of 12 and was surrounded by rivals, mostly his own relatives, and was in a dire state, harried by these rivals as well as the tremendous Uzbek or Shaibani conquerors. So sort of pushed out of Central Asia, Babur made it to what he called Hindustan, which is the word for northern India at the time, which at the time actually had been ruled by Turkic origin and later Afghan origin, Muslim rulers for more than 400 years then. So when Babur comes to India in 15 and finally wins this battle against the then ruling king, called Ibrahim Lodi, it's a new kingdom. But the area had been ruled by Muslim rulers for more than 400 years already.

Emily Briffett (10:02)

And then how was the imperial court established after this?

Professor Nandini Chatterjee (10:06)

So we have really lively accounts of this precarious process, if you like, of a regime establishing itself. And one of the most wonderful sources we actually have is Emperor Babur's own autobiography, which, by the way, is one of the first autobiographies to be written in the non Western world. And Babur writes beautifully and really accessibly as well. He's very humane in his writing. He wrote in his native tongue, which is a variant of the Turkish language. Unfortunately, that manuscript is lost, but it was translated to Persian by his grandson. So one of the first things actually we encounter is this lively scene where Babur, having defeated the ruling king, among other things, asks to eat Indian food and he has special cooks brought to him in order to prepare a fantastic meal. Unfortunately, by doing that, he actually brings danger upon himself because the defeated emperor's mother bribes the cook to poison the new emperor. And she nearly succeeds, except Barbara starts feeling sick halfway through the meal and so gets up to go throw up, which saves his life. And then they discover the poisoning and so on. I just narrate that story, not just to share a story of violence and intrigue, but to just communicate, if you like, both the curiosity on the part of those who were incoming. Babur famously didn't like many things about Northern India. He found it like a Central Asian. He found it too hot. He didn't like the fruits, he didn't quite like the people. He couldn't make friends. It's a bit of a grumpy expat, really. And he also died four years after, but the curiosity was still there. And if you actually look through his autobiography, the amount of details he gives about Indian timekeeping, Indian food, Indian currency, Indian trade, you think this is pretty amazing to have gathered in four years. And subsequently, of course, the court evolves through generations, and the second generation of the dynasty is a very unsettled one. It's the one where Emperor Humayun is actually forced to leave the country and go into exile in Iran for a while, where he's also compelled to accept the Shia form of Islam, whereas the Mughals were Sunnis. But that actually that forced exile, which ends when Emperor Humayun again comes back to India and has re established the Mughal dynasty. But his Persian interlude, so to say, contributes a major factor to Mughal Kotli culture, and that is Persian art, Persian calligraphy, Persian building practices. He not just brings the ideas, he actually brings the personnel with him. So the trend, if you like, of migration in this period is from Central Asia and Iran. Skilled people generally try to move towards the Mughal Empire in order to find better paid jobs and also greater security as both Central Asia and especially Iran go through turmoil, but also the regime start getting more and more restrictive. Whereas the Mughals build a reputation for being tolerant and welcoming to foreign skills and to all skills, in fact. And I think this kind of open, tolerant and assimilative culture fully comes to fruition in the third generation with Akbar, who is probably the most unique Muslim king ever, because the level of religious curiosity and cultural curiosity that he brings to his rule is both unprecedented and perhaps never replicated ever again. So Akbar starts the trend of intermarrying with northern Indian Hindu religious warrior groups known as the Rajputs. And alongside there is a major transformation that takes place in terms of the Kotli culture, one example of which is the tradition that he develops of inter religious dialogue and for which he invites the Jesuits who had come to Goa following the Portuguese establishment of empire in that coastal city. So the Jesuits are invited to the Mughal court to debate the merits of different religions alongside Zoroastrians, Jains, who are a small group in India, and of course Hindus as well as Muslim clerics. There is a real intermingling of literary styles and perhaps the biggest translation project perhaps of the world, where the royal court patronizes the translation of ancient Indian scholarly literature, not just religious literature, but all kinds of learned texts, including on astronomy, on medicine, on sexology, on art and so on. From the ancient Indian language, Sanskrit and into Persian. The court also adopts a range of religious festivities as part of the courtly culture. They celebrate Nowroz, which is the ancient Persian New Year, which is also celebrated in Iran. Even now. They celebrate of course, all the Muslim festivals, but they also celebrate major Hindu festivals as well. So it's a thriving cosmopolitan court which is made up of nobility that come from Central Asia, Iran, Anatolia, that is Turkey. There are no nobles from Europe, but there are certainly soldiers who come from Europe, especially Venetians and the Portuguese. And then of course you have Indians themselves of different religions and backgrounds and they all participate in this cosmopolitan culture which is what unites them.

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Emily Briffett (17:27)

Now there are several other royals that I'm sure we might name drop as we talk, but let's step away from the court for a moment. What was life like in the Mughal empire?

Professor Nandini Chatterjee (17:39)

I think that question would be more or less equivalent to asking a question like what is life like in Pakistan or India? Now these are very large places and with very many people of very, very different socio economic conditions. So life in the Mughal empire depended on who you were. And because of its enormity, it's perhaps worth thinking of some specific groups of people for whom we have detailed textual as well as visual evidence. So one very important group of people are the weavers of this really high quality textile known as the muslin. When we talk of muslin now, we think of this very low quality burp cloth really that is used for babies. But once upon a time muslin used to be this hyper fine cotton cloth. So the urban legend about it used to be that once a princess draped herself in seven layers of this muslin and was still told off by her father for appearing practically naked. And that's how Fine it was. Now, muslin becomes a bit of a fashion craze in Europe in the 17th and 18th centuries, and this is what draws a lot of the European trading endeavors towards South Asia. And incidentally, the particular type of cotton plant which produced the fibers from which this hyperfine cloth was made is extinct now, so it cannot be reproduced anymore because of changes in environment. But we do know that actually the task was both laborious, it was highly skilled, and it was also specialized. So, for example, the picking of the threads from these cotton balls was actually done generally by women, and that is to say, actually very young women, almost girls, because of the fineness and dexterity of their fingers. So it was very hard work, actually, and some of it apparently had to be done in particularly humid and hot conditions. So it couldn't have been fun pulling out those strings of the fiber and then spinning them and then weaving them. And we have lots and lots of evidence, of course, of these weavers being given advances through agents, some of them really exploitative advances, which then bound them to produce certain amounts of cloth. Now, weaving, if you have actually seen handlooms at work, is very heavy and repetitive work, but it's also extremely skilled if you're trying to make patterns. So weaving has a certain rhythm. So we also have these songs that develop alongside these weaving practices. So we know that the weavers were singing this particular songs which go along with these weaving practices, and some of this is recoverable. So I think, like, taking the example of the weavers is a good one because it's one of hundreds of different kinds of artisans that populated the Mughal empire, which supplied its riches, who were not generally wealthy themselves. But on the other hand, they were also valued for their skills, and I do have some idea of how much they would be paid. So a skilled artisan, specifically a weaver in the 18th century, would be earning something like between 50 and 100 rupees a year. And that suggests that they could have a modest house, they could have decent but not opulent lives. It's worth also thinking from artisans outwards for this reason that we often think of these vast countries as faceless agricultural masses. There is a lot of agriculture, but agricultural work is also very specialized. Also, not in all parts of the country could the soil and environment actually maintain agriculture throughout the year. So in many parts of the country, especially where the soil and the environment was drier, people would be cultivating their lands for part of the year, and for the other part of the year, they would be signing up as soldiers. And this is Something that continues right up to the 19th century, where in fact, with the rebellion of 1857, when the soldiers of the East India Company rebel, they simply go back to their villages and arouse their own relatives. So you have these soldiers, the soldiers, some of them are truly poor, but they have a reputation and they have a family tradition of military work. Some soldiers we know are wealthy enough to actually buy and equip their own horse and buy their equipment. So these soldiers are like the gentleman soldiers, if you like, of 17th century Europe. They are actually known as ahadis, which comes from the Arabic word wahid one, as in they are solo, they are not dependent on anyone, they are kind of free men. So even within the soldiery, if you like, you have such a range of people from the poor farmer who part time signs up to some noble's army, is given perhaps a secondhand horse and some secondhand equipment, and risks his life really in these, or sometimes in impossible battles. And there are some military maneuvers that are basically using poor people as cannon fodder. So for example, sapping and mining, whenever there is a siege on a major stone fort, especially uphill, they have to push the cannons up the hill. But then when they actually approach the fort, they create these kind of covered tunnels which are known as sabat. And they're doing that under gunfire, so they're dying in their thousands, in fact. So there is that level of soldiering which is almost a desperate move for livelihood. And on the other end of the scale, you have the absolutely opulent nobles, if you like, the noble warriors who lead huge regiments and sign up to the Mughal court. So I think like between all of these things, we have a range of lifestyles, conditions, chances in life actually as well. And then as now in South Asia, where you get to does have something to do with your skills, your motivation and sheer luck. But a lot of it does depend on where you're born.

Emily Briffett (24:18)

There are so many threads that I'd like to pull upon there. Firstly, let's start here. You mentioned there about women's involvement in manufacturing cloths. Where else can we see the lives of women in the Mughal Empire? Both in the courts and more widely.

Professor Nandini Chatterjee (24:34)

We can see women in all sorts of places. So it's almost surprising that we don't talk more about women in the Mughal Empire. They're not necessarily invisible, it's just that we don't take time to see them. So I talked about the weavers. Let me tell you about another kind of artisan. And these are the bricklayers. Even now, when you go to South Asia, whenever you're in a building site, what is perhaps most striking is how many women work in those sites. And the typical work that women do on those sites is carrying the bricks up these ladders on their heads. So they are supplying the bricks while the mason is actually like building a building. And that's the case even now. And what's really charming is we have a text called the Akbar Nama, which is the life of the third emperor Akbar as narrated by his chief courtier. We have gorgeous manuscripts produced in his reign which are richly illustrated with miniature paintings showing the process, among other things, of the building of the magnificent fort at Agra, which is known as Fatehpur Sikri. And in those paintings you see women working hard alongside men in building that fort. And these women are dressed in ways that looks quite familiar. So, for example, there's a love lovely painting of a woman carrying these bricks on her head and balancing while doing that, going up these bamboo ladders. And she's wearing a full skirt, she's wearing something like a loose shirt and she's got these chunky ornaments, these bangles up her arms as well as round her ankles. And she's very muscular and looks really robust as well as you would have to be in order to do that work. So we can see women doing work of different kinds. Another great example we actually have is from European travelers accounts, including of how difficult it is to actually collect taxes from some parts of the countryside because the peasants who I just mentioned are also armed in most cases because they are also part time soldiers and they really don't like the taxman. So Nicola Manucci, who's a Venetian who travels to the Mughal empire in the 17th century and he's bit of a character because he sets himself up as a quack for a while and then he signs up as a gunner and then he signs himself off to be a diplomat. And he, he does tell a lot of tall tales, so we can't believe everything he says. But this one does ring true. He says that when the taxpayer actually comes to collect taxes near some villages near Agra, the men hold off the taxpayer with their guns and their wives help them load the guns. Which then brings me right back to perhaps the most famous Marx woman in the Mughal Empire, who is the Empress Noor Jahan. Noor Jahan, the 18th and final and most important wife of the fourth emperor Jahangir, is basically known as the Empress of the Mughal Empire at the time because her husband essentially handed over the controls of the empire to her, or that at least how nobles, men who were really grumpy about the situation saw it as. She certainly had a lot of power, but what we also know about her is that she was an excellent marksman. Her husband was really impressed with how she took down once four lions with six shots. And this while traveling on top of an elephant. She also led an entire regiment once across a raging river in order to rescue her husband, this emperor, Jahangir, who had been temporarily kidnapped. So women are visible in all sorts of places, including in court chronicles, including entertainingly, in the accounts of European travelers, some of whom complain that women have too much power in the Mughal empire. And then you see them depicted in paintings. And one final place where you see women, perhaps, is on the walls of religious buildings, and that is because they make donations to these religious buildings. This conspicuous patronage is very much something that women with any wealth do, and they make sure that their name is actually recorded in there as well.

Emily Briffett (28:58)

Something that has struck me, as you've been talking is just the extraordinary wealth of art and architecture and artisanal achievements. It sounds extraordinary. How did Mughal patronage shape the development of these sorts of things in South Asia more broadly?

Professor Nandini Chatterjee (29:15)

I think whenever we think of the Mughal Empire, the first building we think of is the Taj Mahal, which is a tomb dedicated to the fifth emperor, Shah Jahan's wife, Mumtaz Mahal. Now, the Taj Mahal is, of course, a World Heritage site, and it's also very representative of the Mughal architectural style as it develops across generations. So there are certain things about the shape of the dome, the particular pointiness of the arches, and there's something that I at least find particularly charming, which are these honeycomb shaped cornices. Very, very pretty. They're known as mukarnas that develop over time. There's use of a kind of signature combination of red sandstone with white marble, which is what you see in the Taj Mahal as well. The Taj Mahal is designed as a bit of a visual surprise factor. There is a wowness to it, because once you walk through the gates, which are red, and then you see the Taj Mahal, which is gleaming w, that's the kind of combination that becomes a kind of signature Mughal style. So a lot of the kind of signature Mughal architecture, through palaces, through forts and so on, are obviously developed directly through the dynasty's own patronage. But perhaps the reason that it's so widespread is that that kind of patronage and that kind of subscription to the Mughal style is not limited to the dynast one Very striking place and perhaps unexpected space to actually see Mughal style in operation is the temple complex in the north Indian city known as Vrindavan. Now, here, the Vaishnavas, who are the worshippers of Vishnu from Bengal, which is in the eastern part of the Mughal empire, set up a religious center in the 16th century. They receive patronage from Emperor Akbar. And with that patronage, but also from subscriptions that they collect from lots of different people, they build these gorgeous temples dedicated to different forms of the Lord Vishnu. So there is the Govindev Ji temple, for example. Now, if one saw the Govindev Ji temple, which is the earliest one that's built there, and if one were not told, it's very hard to know that it's in fact a Hindu temple, because it doesn't look that different from the fort complex in Fatehpur Sikri. This is signature Mughal style, and it's not something that the dynasty has designed. It's something that people have actually chosen to replicate because this is what is seen as the highest standard of culture at the time. And to give another, if you like, less grand example, because the Govindev Ji temple is made in stone and it's the same red sandstone and. And it's extremely monumental. But you have these really charming brick temples in Bengal in a place called Vishnupur, which is also a World Heritage Site. And that has a beautiful combination, in fact, of the Bengal style with the Mughal style. And again, you have these temples which have these detailed brick bas relief work, really. And the mind boggles to think, like, how hard it is to actually create such detailed relief work in brick. But you have this series of. Of friezes, if you like, on these temples which depict this fictitious scenes of Emperor Jahangir gracing the court of the local chief, who is, of course, a subordinate of the Mughal empire and is very proud to be so and so in kind of patronizing the building of these temples in his own domains, he's choosing to depict Emperor Jahangir on the walls of this temple. And I think that is a great illustration of the cultural power of the Mughals.

Emily Briffett (33:18)

From the cultural power we should probably just mention, this is a vast territory we're talking about over several centuries. How was it governed? Was it strong administration, diplomacy, warfare?

Professor Nandini Chatterjee (33:32)

It's a combination of all of those. So the Mughals do develop the most bureaucratized and centralized empire that South Asia had seen up to that point, but they also overstate their efficacy. And so there are these manuals. Most famously, this book called Ayn E Rules of Akbar, which, again, predictably, are produced in Akbar's reign by his courtier, which spells out exactly how everything ought to be done. So it's not just about how to collect taxes, how to recruit soldiers, how to appoint judges, but also how to make biryani. It's all like, kind of down to every single detail. I think we can safely assume that not every single rule was actually followed exactly to the letter. Having said that, the Mughals divided their empire into provinces. They did not just collect taxes as an ad hoc matter of kind of grabbing tribute from whoever they could. They had a detailed system of surveying the land according to its productivity as well as the crop that was growing on it. And there were these detailed tax schedules for the measured parts of the Mughal empire. Now, there were peripheral regions in which such measuring had not taken place, in which the tax claim was more, shall we say, ad hoc. What could have been negotiated. They also had, even in the central administration's view, they had this idea that there were some local landlords and they called them zamin Dars. Zamin is land. Dar is one who has that. There are some Zamindars who simply need force in order to give up the taxes. So they were kind of acknowledging the fact that rules and violence went hand in hand. There was a systematic tax system as well as an explosion of documentation that we actually see remnants of in the form of hundreds of thousands of scraps of paper. So there were actually personnel who were deployed all over the empire. However, most taxes did not actually go straight to the central treasury. The way it worked was that the Mughal office holders who were known as mansab Dars. Mansab is position. Dar is one who has or holds. These were the officials who were the nobility of the Mughal empire. So once a noble mansabdar was appointed, they were given a jagir, as in place that they could seize. And that meant that they were entitled to the tax collections from that region. In theory, they were not meant to collect those taxes themselves. The taxes would be collected anyway, but they would get the proceeds of those taxes. And what were they to do with that money? They were supposed to raise regiments, which we just mentioned before, which is they were supposed to sign up a certain number of soldiers in proportion with the taxes they were allocated, equip them and so on. So this was essentially, I think, the kind of indirect, outsourced way in which most of the administration took place. So there was a whole plan, but not all of it was directed centrally. A lot of it was outsourced to these mansabdars and just to get a sense of how many, there were roughly about thousand of them at any moment in time. And these. These thousand people were essentially the state, if you like, and they were about as diverse in background as you could imagine, but they all learned the rules and they knew how it was to be done.

Emily Briffett (37:09)

Now we should start coming to a close of our story. We've got a question here from a listener on Instagram, Max Quigley, and he's asked about whether the Mughal Empire would have survived had it not been for the East India Company. But I suppose we can add that with another question. You mentioned earlier about the long decline of the empire. What were the major factors behind this decline?

Professor Nandini Chatterjee (37:35)

So the decline of the Mughal Empire. Thank you, Max, for that question. Is perhaps one of the big historiographic debates, unresolved historiographic debates, I should say, among historians right from the time of its decline itself, as in contemporaries, were actually thinking, why is this regime, which was so successful, suddenly not working quite so well? One thing we can say with confidence is that the East India Company had very little to do with its decline as such. So the Mughal Empire goes into very rapid decline after the death of the sixth emperor, Aurangzeb, who died in 1707. It's not immediate, but from around the 1710s to 15s, what we see is a combination of two factors. One, that the governors of the major Mughal provinces start striking out on their own as rulers of those provinces, not as appointees, and setting these up as kingdoms in their own right. In many cases, these people are signing out, if you like, of the Mughal Empire, because once upon a time, signing up to the Mughal Empire meant that you pay the price in terms of subordination. You have a bond, but you get access to much greater resources that you would not otherwise have by just being a local king. And here the historiographic debate comes up. We are not sure why exactly that equation starts to change, but what's very clear is that the empire had overstretched itself. And so now the new territories which were under Mughal control were not paying enough taxes. So people were, if you remember how the administration worked, worked, the people were being told to administer territories with taxes which were inadequate for doing that administration. So people were getting fed up because they weren't getting paid. Their soldiers were not getting paid. So they began thinking, and these are all formidable warriors and governors in their own right. Right. We don't need to send the taxes to the center anymore. We'll pay verbal tribute, which they continue to do. Until the 19th century, but we won't send any money. So by the 1710s, by which time the East India companies, in plural, have no political power whatsoever. The governors are striking out. In combination with that, we have a second factor which is of social change. And certain social groups are becoming dissatisfied with the Mughal Empire. And one of them is this Western Indian warrior peasant group known as the Marathas, who, led by a charismatic leader in the late 17th century, a man called Shivaji, actually start building an empire of their own. There are various other parallels, including in the Punjab, where you have the Sikhs disaffected with the Mughals, and there's a social rebellion going on there as well. So in terms of, if you like, the combination of the Mughal governance deciding to break out on their own and the social rebels, the Mughal Empire's capacity, if you like, although not cultural appeal, really declines rapidly in the 1720s onwards.

Emily Briffett (40:50)

Is there an official end date that we could give the Mughal Empire?

Professor Nandini Chatterjee (40:55)

Yes, absolutely. That Official date is 1858. This is when, following the rebellion of the East India Company soldiers known as the sepoys, in 1857, the East India Company abolishes the Mughal crown and exiles the last Mughal Emperor to what was then Burma to die in exile. And the reason they do that, because the king had no power. So the reason it was actually useful for the East India Company to do that is the cultural appeal that the Mughal still had in 1857, such that the rebellious sepoys made their way to Delhi and declared the Mughal Emperor the ruler of Hindustan once again because they wanted to recreate this independent regime. What's perhaps quite entertaining and also sad at that point, is that the Mughal Emperor then, Bahadushah Zafar, ironically known as the victorious, which he was not. Bahadushah Zafar was an old man, 80 plus, and he had absolutely no desire to lead a rebellion against the East India Company. But he was thrust upon a leadership position by the soldiers. And one has to say that after the battle was lost and his sons were shot without trial, he was himself brought to trial in front of what we would probably caught a kangaroo court, because it was like a military court which is just set up just to try him, he denied the jurisdiction of that court. So you see the last kind of expression of kind of Mughal dignity where he says, but I do not understand how this company of traders actually has any jurisdiction to try me, who is the ruler of Hindustan. But of course, that was just a flourish because he was a powerless old man. And then they get rid of him. So 1858 it is.

Emily Briffett (42:42)

How is the legacy of the Mughal Empire viewed across South Asia and beyond today?

Professor Nandini Chatterjee (42:48)

This is a bit of a divided matter, and it is also very politically sensitive in many countries of South Asia, not just India. But if we start with India right now, where the majority of Mughal built, as well as textual heritage still resides, the Mughals have a poor reputation. This is a development that we have seen growing over the last 20 years. It used to be thought that it was the last major Mughal emperor, Aurangzeb, who was the one who was not beloved in the sense that he was seen as a bigot. He was seen as somebody who had discarded the tolerant ideals of Emperor Akbar, among others, but also his own father and grandfather. There is both truth and falsity to those allegations against him. He was a formidable warrior and by all accounts, quite a grumpy man as well. But now the situation is that the Mughal dynasty in general is being criticized by many people in India as a foreign, violent, extractive, and unwanted part of Indian history. Which is extremely sad, because among other things, the Mughals perhaps gave India the identity that we know of today in Pakistan. The Mughals do not have this negative reputation. And it's almost like, as I understand, it's kind of a mirror of the Indian stereotypes. So there, Aurangzeb tends to be the hero. But on the other hand, the Mughals in general are not quite role models in Pakistan. They're obviously thoughtful, knowledgeable people in all these countries who would be with me and laughing sadly at these interpretations. But the Mughals were hard drinking, hard wenching in every single way, like what many people would think of as un Islamic, but they were Muslims, and that's how you did Muslim empire in those days. So it's not very popular in any South Asian country at the moment. Unfortunately, in some ways, almost the glamour of the Mughals has moved to the West. And in some senses, if you like, it's really in the museums and collections and public kind of opinion about the Mughals among the South Asian diaspora, but also among wider audiences that the Mughals kind of retain their glamour and their appeal. So we shall see where that goes.

Emily Briffett (45:11)

Okay, as a final question for you then, is there anything in particular that you would like to leave listeners with? Is there a myth you want to bust? A message you would like to leave? A cool fact that we haven't yet shared.

Professor Nandini Chatterjee (45:27)

So the one group of characters that we haven't talked about at all is the Sufis and saints, as I like to call them. Right. So the Mughals did a lot of warfare. There was a lot of also expensive courtly spending and conspicuous consumption and so on. But one really important place where a lot of the cultural life of the Mughal Empire actually flourished were around the Sufi shrines. Now, Sufis, our listeners may or may not know, are those that practice tasabwa, that is a mystical way of trying to unite with God, trying to clean your soul, which is trying to experience the divine. Now, the Sufis were these really important and powerful characters in the Mughal Empire. And a very important episode, I think, is when the third emperor, Akbar, sends his pregnant wife to give birth in the house of the Chisti Sufi saint in Fatehpur Sikri. This is a deliberate effort, first of all, to basically ask for a miracle. He really needed a son at that point. But it's really also trying to borrow from the charisma of these religious figures. Even now, the reach of the Sufi saints of South Asia is across religious barriers. If we actually go to any Sufi shrine, for example, the Nizamuddin Shrine in Delhi, or we go to Ajmer, to Muniddin Chisti Shrine, both of which, by the way, was visited by the Mughal emperors. You see this place, which is so lively. Actually, I watched something on Instagram recently where a Muslim traveler from Southeast Asia actually visited one of these shrines and said, this doesn't look like Islam to me. And indeed, that's again, about busting those expectations of what does Islam look like, like? And these are these absolutely lovely, colorful spaces full of people in which as soon as one enters, one sees, first of all, endless merchandise. Then you can buy these coupons which you can use then to feed the poor. When you enter the shrine complex, if one is fortunate, it's full of music. This is called sama. So it's a particular Sufi practice. And in India, it actually develops into this song form, which is known as kawali. And you have these beautiful qawali performances, which are not necessarily all ethereal. They're often very loud. It's accompanied with a lot of instruments, and on the side of it, there could be an exorcism going on as well. So there's some person who has mental health or nervous difficulties is being exorcised off an alleged ghost. Then you see, like, kind of men going to touch the shrine and sometimes being whacked by peacock feathers, which is supposed to also, like, convey the charisma of the saint. Whereas women touch the grills of the shrine and they tie little knots with promises on them. I think in many ways, actually the Sufi shrines are where the culture, the courtly culture of the Mughal Empire actually took its popular form. And I think I would like to end our discussion of the Mughal Empire by placing ourselves very much in this shrine. And if we are to choose a shrine, then I choose Nizamuddin's shrine in Delhi.

Emily Briffett (49:03)

That was Nandini Chatterjee, professor of Indian History and Culture at the University of Oxford. She was speaking to Emily Briffett.

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Professor Nandini Chatterjee (49:55)

Hey, this is Sarah.

Emily Briffett (49:57)

Look, I'm standing out front of a.m. p.m. Right now and well, you're sweet and all, but I found something more fulfilling.

Professor Nandini Chatterjee (50:03)

Even kind of cheesy. But I like it.

Emily Briffett (50:05)

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Professor Nandini Chatterjee (50:07)

Needs, but they've just got it all. So farewell Oatmeal, the long use train.

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Break up with bland breakfast and taste AM PM's bacon, egg and cheese biscuit made with cage free eggs, smoked bacon and melty cheese on a buttery biscuit. Am P M Too much good stuff. Hello, I'm Greg Jenner, host of youf're Dead to Me, the comedy podcast from the BBC that takes history seriously. Each week I'm joined by a comedian and an expert historian to learn and laugh about the past. In our all new season, we cover unique areas of history that your school lessons may have missed. From getting ready in the Renaissance era to the Kellogg brothers. Listen to your dead to me now. Wherever you get your podcasts.