The real women behind Europe's greatest legends

HistoryExtra Podcast | Host: Danny Bird | Guest: Dr. Yanina Ramirez
Release Date: February 25, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Danny Bird is joined by historian, art historian, and author Dr. Yanina Ramirez to discuss her new book, which explores how medieval and early modern European women like Joan of Arc, Isabella of Castile, and others were transformed—often posthumously—into potent national and political symbols. Ramirez unpacks how legend and myth have obscured the real lives of these women, the political motives behind their mythologization, and the complex interplay between gender, identity, and nation-building.

Main Themes & Purpose

Historicizing Women’s Role in Nationhood: The episode examines how individual women became larger-than-life symbols used in the construction of national identity, often posthumously and sometimes contradictorily to their own experiences.
Legend vs. Reality: Ramirez challenges the listener to look past popular legends and archetypes and rediscover the complex, authentic lives of women whose stories continue to shape politics and culture.
Lessons for Today: The conversation explores how history is manipulated for contemporary agendas and what we might learn about identity, resilience, and critical thinking from the women of the past.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Perspective in Historical Research

Timestamp: 02:03–05:26

Ramirez reflects on her own identity—as a woman of Polish-Irish heritage, raised Catholic in the UK—and how it naturally informed her scholarly voice and interests.
She describes the gradual realization that national and religious identities are not just research topics but part of her own lived experience—"those scaffolds of my own identity have really come into everything I’ve done." (Yanina Ramirez, 02:07)
National identity and terminology (British Isles, Welsh, Irish, etc.) have always required careful consideration, especially as history is repurposed for nation-building.

2. Women as National Icons: Enduring Impact

Timestamp: 05:26–08:07

Joan of Arc: Ramirez discusses how Joan remains central to French political rhetoric, notably appropriated by far-right movements—“He then set up a further right version of it, which he named the party of Joan, the party of Joan of Arc, and made her the banner...” (Yanina Ramirez, 05:37)
Isabella of Castile: Her legacy continues to affect Spanish regional dynamics and cultural tension—“And yet again we’ve got conflict in Catalonia, in the Basque region, in Scotland. These imposed identities will not always be simply accepted...” (Yanina Ramirez, 07:40)

3. The Paradox of Feminized Nations

Timestamp: 08:07–13:24

National personifications (Britannia, Marianne, etc.) adorn institutions but exclude real women from power.
Ramirez highlights the contradiction: “The nation is a woman, but women didn’t build nations... In almost every revolutionary moment... the women are almost entirely excluded from the creation of a national identity.” (Yanina Ramirez, 08:27)
She reflects on progress and regression in women’s agency and the cyclical nature of gender roles in history: “We think we’re on a constant spiral of progress upwards, but what I’m seeing is that there are these sorts of waves... we move forward, we step backward, we slide way backwards.” (Yanina Ramirez, 12:12)

4. Why Some Women Become Heroines

Timestamp: 13:24–16:35

Charisma, controversy, and the reductive power of storytelling help select which figures are remembered: “We are still in the thrall of the charismatic, the extreme, the outspoken, the difficult.” (Yanina Ramirez, 13:36)
Iconography and simplicity foster endurance—e.g., Goya’s imagery of Agostina of Aragon: “That icon has been seared into people’s minds... the thing is, I could have written a thousand books looking at 1000 different historical figures.” (14:43)
Ramirez urges readers to dig beneath the myth: “Let’s go beneath the story. Let’s be really forensic about who our historical figures are.” (15:41)

5. Objects, Art, and the Byzantium Chapter

Timestamp: 17:58–23:03

The Greek War of Independence and the Byzantine world are often downplayed in “Western” narratives.
Surviving artifacts—coined by female Emperors, bejeweled crosses—show that women were sometimes at the apex of power: “You find things like coins that have the two empresses, Zoe and Theodora... literally the top of the [world].” (Yanina Ramirez, 20:57)
Ramirez stresses the importance of a global, less Eurocentric history and warns against Western exceptionalism.

6. Women of Faith: Catherine of Siena and Others

Timestamp: 23:03–28:05

The allure and the dangers of self-mortification and extreme action as routes to religious/political prominence.
Catherine of Siena—an “influencer” with a “vicious marketing team” (23:18)—used public penance to gain notoriety and effect political change.
Discussion of how extreme acts and sainthood are tightly bound, often as the only available path to agency for medieval women.

7. The Political Use and Abuse of Historical Women

Timestamp: 28:05–31:05

Propaganda’s modern manifestations: “It’s everywhere. It’s every day, it’s every moment. I mean, the frustration of the historian is we get often told to stay in our lane... How can I not?” (Yanina Ramirez, 28:20)
The misappropriation of Templar and crusader imagery by modern far-right figures is cited as a stark example.
Ramirez notes: “There’s never been a time where the good and the great haven't harnessed the past... None of us have the ability to see forwards... we’ll constantly go back and misuse that past...” (Yanina Ramirez, 29:24)

8. Resilience and Identity: Lessons for Today

Timestamp: 31:05–35:00

Ramirez urges critical engagement with history as a tool for combating division, misinformation, and propaganda.
“We need to be brave. We need to be clear minded. And I use the phrase sharpen our scholarly sword and sharpen our minds to prepare ourselves for what’s coming.” (Yanina Ramirez, 31:20)
Emphasizes everyday agency, local history, and reconnecting physically with the landscape and each other as antidotes to the alienation of modern, digitized life.
“The thing we can control... is we can connect with the people around us... We can help each other, we can live collaboratively... No, we’re humans and we’ve always lived alongside each other.” (Yanina Ramirez, 34:06)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Joan of Arc’s Political Afterlife:
“Even when he was kicked out of the National Front Party, he then set up a further right version... named the party of Joan of Arc, and made her the banner...” (Ramirez, 05:37)
On Feminized Nations and Exclusion:
“The nation is a woman, but women didn’t build nations. It is a fundamental injustice...” (Ramirez, 08:27)
On Hero Construction:
“People don’t wanna dig into all of the nitty gritty and the detail. They wanna know who their heroes are... an instantly reductive version of a hero.” (Ramirez, 14:13)
On The Power of Objects from the Past:
“When you see these accidental survivals... that are very, very clear indicators that women ruled the world... that chapter was really powerful for me.” (Ramirez, 21:32)
On the Use and Abuse of the Past:
“There’s never been a time where the good and the great haven’t harnessed the past... all anybody can ever do is look backwards.” (Ramirez, 29:24)
On Lessons for Today:
“We need to be brave. We need to be clear minded. And I use the phrase ‘sharpen our scholarly sword’ and sharpen our minds for what’s coming. Because... we are fighting against misinformation, we’re fighting against propaganda and control at the very highest, most manipulative levels.” (Ramirez, 31:20)

Timestamps for Important Segments

Personal and National Identity in Scholarship – 02:03–05:26
Icons as National Symbols (Joan of Arc & Isabella of Castile) – 05:26–08:07
The Paradox of Nation as Woman – 08:07–13:24
Why Some Women Endure as Legends – 13:24–16:35
Art Objects, Greece, and Forgotten Heroines – 17:58–23:03
Women of Faith & Power (Catherine of Siena, etc.) – 23:03–28:05
Propaganda and Manipulation of History – 28:05–31:05
Resilience, Reconnection, and Modern Lessons – 31:05–35:00

Conclusion

Dr. Yanina Ramirez’s insight-packed conversation with Danny Bird leaves listeners with a compelling call to interrogate the history behind national myths, remain vigilant against manipulation, and reconnect with the real, complex women whose lives shaped Europe’s past. Their courage, and the truth beneath the legend, offer both a challenge and an inspiration for thinking critically about identity, power, and resilience in the present.

Transcript

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Danny Bird (1:35)

National icons aren't born, they're engineered. But how were medieval figures such as Joan of Arc and Isabella of Castile transformed into political symbols, their real lives obscured by centuries of myth making? In this episode of the History Extra podcast, Yanina Ramirez tells Danny Bird about some of the women who have been elevated to such pedestals and and how these legends are created, recreated, and repurposed for national mythologies.

Danny Bird (2:03)

So I suppose what I should ask you is, was there a moment when you knew you had to write this book?

Yanina Ramirez (2:07)

I think in a funny way, everything I've written coalesces around three aspects. Because of course, you know, I remember being brought up, learning about Said and this idea of the scholar exposing their identities openly in their work. You'd be very candid, as opposed to trying to be the voice of empirical truth, but instead trying to say, you know, this is where I come at this from. And so right from the beginning of my academic career, I always remember trying to think, be courageous, say who you are, and then if the readers want to come along on the journey with you, then at least you're being transparent. So my identity really revolves around the fact that A, I'm a woman, B class comes into it. You know, immigrants, lower classes. Then you've got this idea of the fact that I'm Polish Irish, of Polish Irish heritage, growing up in the uk, born in Dubai, funnily enough, weirdly, but married to a Spanish Scot, and, and having a kind of very European sense of myself and my identity and a very European upbringing. And then this idea as well of being Polish Irish. I wasn't gonna get away without a Catholic upbringing. So listen, what was I to do? There was nothing I could do. So I was brought up Roman Catholic, sent to a convent school. All the rest of it doesn't mean I'm a practicing Catholic now, but it means that I have this foundation in religion and a sort of an empathy and an appreciation for people with belief. I can understand why people have faith and why people believe. And so those scaffolds of my own identity have really come into everything I've done. I mean, I remember my aunt, who is actually a Franciscan lay missionary, bizarrely saying, oh, Nina, look at you. I'm so proud of you writing about the saints. Cause that was my first book. I said, have you actually read the book? Cause kind of the whole premise of the saints is I'm kind of pulling down the edifice of saints and putting them in the landscape, putting them in their own kind of real lives. But yeah, I was like, oh, oh my gosh, I've written about saints. Oh God, I've written a book about Julian of Norwich. Am I actually still just like this sort of 10 year old Roman Catholic girl who's writing about all these religious topics. But that's just bled into my knowledge and my understanding of the world, how I make sense of the world. And so in terms of nationality and in terms of writing this book, it's been there from the off. It's really been there from the off. I remember sending in my first book, Private Lives of Saints, and having a discussion about use of the terms British Isles, Welsh, Irish, Northern Irish, Scottish, uk, and how to very carefully and sensitively be very accurate about the national terms I was using. And that was God. That was nearly 12 years ago, 13 years ago. And then writing Femina, it started to become like a klaxon that was going off in every chapter. It's like, look how people are laying claim to this. Look how people are using this for their national histories now. Look how Scandinavia uses their Viking heritage. Look how France uses its Cathar heritage. Look how each of these figures that you're pointing out is situated so firmly in their own historical time, but have then been used and manipulated centuries after they actually lived for different agendas.