History Extra Podcast
Episode: "The Road to the Holocaust"
Date: January 19, 2026
Host: Spencer Mizzen
Guest: Frank McDonagh
Main Theme
This episode of the History Extra podcast explores the gradual evolution of Nazi persecution against Jews, culminating in the Holocaust. Historian Frank McDonagh discusses insights from his new book, The Hitler Holocaust 1933-1945, providing a detailed, year-by-year account of how Nazi thuggery, exclusion, and bureaucratic changes laid the groundwork for genocide. Throughout the conversation, the focus is on understanding how anti-Jewish policies escalated, the complicity of various actors, the diversity of experiences across occupied Europe, and the necessity of remembering these harrowing events in the face of denial.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Why a Year-by-Year Narrative?
- Chronological Structure: McDonagh explains the book’s decision to cover each year from Hitler’s ascent in 1933 to 1945 as it allows readers—especially non-academics—to grasp the gradual, escalating nature of Nazi policies toward Jews.
“It's impossible to predict in 1933 that we're going to end up in 1943 with extermination camps. So it tells the story through the years when these things happened, and I think it has a greater impact.”
— Frank McDonagh [03:27] - Visual Documentation: The book’s use of 100 photographs is intended to make the history vivid and immediate for readers.
- The incremental, unpredictable evolution of Nazi policy is best understood as a slow, cumulative development rather than a pre-set plan.
2. Early Nazi Policies & Hitler's Initial Thinking
- No Clear Plan in 1933:
When he took power, Hitler’s policies were not mapped out; his initial aims were to remove Jews from German society mainly through forced emigration and exclusion from economic sectors.“He had no big legislative plan, but he had two things in his mind. The first was he wanted Jews removed from German society... and he had this idea that he would gradually try and remove Jews from the economy.”
— Frank McDonagh [06:06] - Early Measures:
- April 1933: Boycott of Jewish businesses – largely unsuccessful due to public resistance and international outcry.
- Civil Service Law: Excluded Jews from government jobs (with a partial exception for World War I veterans).
- Educational Restrictions: Limited Jewish access to state schools and universities to 5%.
3. International and Domestic Awareness
- Western Awareness:
Western governments and citizens were well informed about events in Germany through news reports and demonstrations (e.g., New York’s Madison Square Garden protest).“The New York Times carried umpteen articles... it’s over 400 articles about persecution in 1933. So really, you know, people did know what was going on.”
— Frank McDonagh [08:48] - Jewish Responses:
Jewish reactions documented in letters and diaries reveal the impact of local violence and indicate that persecution was often community-driven before becoming formal government policy.
4. The Role of Hitler and Bureaucracy
- Hitler as Non-Micromanager:
Hitler devolved the implementation of Jewish policy to figures like Heinrich Himmler and Reinhard Heydrich. Grassroots anti-Semitic initiatives often drove national policy changes.“All the initiatives in Jewish policy really come from either below... that percolates its way up.”
— Frank McDonagh [12:03] - Nuremberg Laws (1935):
Banning Jewish citizenship and relationships was a response to pressure from below rather than an initial plan from Hitler.
5. Operation Barbarossa & the Shift to Genocide
- Turning Point – 1941:
The mass murder phase began after the invasion of the Soviet Union with the Einsatzgruppen (death squads) executing Jews en masse in what’s called the “Holocaust by bullets”.“The Holocaust through bullets starts with the invasion of the Soviet Union.”
— Frank McDonagh [16:06] - Creation of Extermination Camps:
Difficulties and inefficiencies of mass shootings prompted the SS to develop extermination camps with gas chambers for systematic murder.
6. The Wannsee Conference & “Final Solution”
- Policy Coordination:
The 1942 Wannsee Conference, chaired by Heydrich, organized the extermination of all European Jews:“In the Wannsee conference they specifically say they've got two kind of policies. One is to take all the Jewish people who are able bodied and work them to death... [others] should be taken away for what was called special treatment.”
— Frank McDonagh [18:42] - Mass Murder Facilities:
Death camps like Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka, unlike Auschwitz, existed solely for extermination. Most victims were gassed with carbon monoxide, not Zyklon B.
7. Knowledge, Resistance, and Varied Experiences
- Ghetto Uprisings:
The 1943 Warsaw Ghetto uprising was directly motivated by Jewish knowledge of their likely extermination upon deportation. - National Variation:
Persecution and survival rates differed greatly by country, depending primarily on local officials’ and governments’ willingness to cooperate or resist Nazi demands.“It depended on where you lived... Denmark... hardly anyone goes to a death camp... Greece... 250,000 Jews were killed like that.”
— Frank McDonagh [23:31]
8. The War’s End and Cover-Up
- Desperation and Concealment:
As Allied victory seemed likely, Nazis made efforts to destroy evidence—digging up and incinerating mass graves, dismantling camps.“All these camps... all the corpses are dug up and they're then sort of burned... There's kind of like this fear that they're gonna get found out and they're gonna go on trial.”
— Frank McDonagh [25:46] - Hungarian Holocaust (1944):
Despite imminent defeat, the Nazis persisted with genocide, notably in Hungary, where over 400,000 Jews were exterminated in the Holocaust’s final phase.
9. The Historian’s Burden and the Necessity of Remembrance
- Personal Toll:
McDonagh describes his emotional distress from studying the Holocaust:“It just. It makes you feel ill, you know, in a way. So I'm glad it's over ... it's horrible, but it's necessary.”
— Frank McDonagh [29:01] - Confronting Denial:
The proliferation of Holocaust denial makes diligent scholarship and public history more urgent than ever.“For all the liars, we need someone to tell the truth. And the truth is important in history.”
— Frank McDonagh [31:05]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On the unpredictability of genocide’s evolution:
“It's impossible to predict in 1933 that we're going to end up in 1943 with extermination camps.”
— Frank McDonagh [03:27] -
On knowledge of Nazi crimes at the time:
“People did know what was going on. There were demonstrations ... over 15,000 people turned out.”
— Frank McDonagh [08:48] -
On Hitler’s management style:
“He wasn't a kind of micromanager... all the initiatives in Jewish policy really come from either below.”
— Frank McDonagh [12:03] -
On the mechanics of extermination:
“Most people in the extermination camps were killed by carbon monoxide gas, which was piped in to the gas chamber.”
— Frank McDonagh [18:42] -
On post-war memory and denial:
“For all the liars, we need someone to tell the truth.”
— Frank McDonagh [31:05]
Important Timestamps
- [02:19] — Start of core discussion: why begin in 1933?
- [03:27] — Advantages of the year-by-year approach.
- [06:06] — Hitler’s initial anti-Jewish policies.
- [08:48] — How much the wider world knew about the persecution.
- [12:03] — Hitler’s delegation of Jewish policy and Nuremberg Laws.
- [16:06] — Impact of Operation Barbarossa and mass killings.
- [18:42] — The Wannsee Conference and the mechanics of genocide.
- [22:17] — Jewish resistance and knowledge in the ghettos.
- [23:31] — Why national differences in survival rates existed.
- [25:46] — Endgame: Nazi cover-up and final killings.
- [29:01] — The personal impact of researching the Holocaust.
- [31:05] — The importance of truth against Holocaust denial.
Summary
Frank McDonagh, in conversation with Spencer Mizzen, provides a chilling and meticulously researched account of the Nazis’ road to genocide, emphasizing that the Holocaust was not a preordained plan but the result of escalating policies, societal complicity, and a web of bureaucratic and local actors. The conversation highlights the importance of close historical analysis, the responsibility to truth amidst denial, and the enduring necessity of bearing witness to these horrifying realities.