Podcast Summary: History Extra – "The secret propaganda war against the Nazis"

Release Date: December 19, 2025
Host: Spencer Mizzen (Immediate Media)
Guest: Terry Stiasny (Author, Journalist, Broadcaster)

Overview

In this fascinating episode, Spencer Mizzen interviews Terry Stiasny about her new book, Believable: The Misfits who Fought Churchill’s Secret Propaganda War, which explores the shadowy activities of the Political Warfare Executive (PWE) – Britain’s covert propaganda arm during the Second World War. The discussion delves into PWE’s founding, methods, internal ethical debates, key figures, operational highlights, and lasting significance, all against the backdrop of the ongoing struggle over truth and disinformation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of the Political Warfare Executive (PWE)

• Catch-up Game: The PWE was formed as Britain scrambled to match Nazi Germany’s advanced use of radio propaganda. Early British efforts were amateurish, involving leaflet drops via hot-air balloon in WWI, but WWII demanded more effective, technological approaches.
  (03:00) "They really had to catch up with a new world where Germany was far ahead in terms of using radio as a form of propaganda." – Terry Stiasny
• Key Figures: Robert Bruce Lockhart (former spy), Richard Crossman (academic/BBC broadcaster), and government ministers like Hugh Dalton and Brendan Bracken were instrumental in the establishment and operation of PWE.
• Woburn Abbey: A country house outside London became the PWE headquarters and hub for propaganda radio targeting occupied Europe.

2. Harnessing Technology for Propaganda

• Evolution: Britain’s use of radio, though hampered at first with technical limitations (e.g., shortwave, jamming), evolved rapidly—including use of the powerful Aspidistra transmitter, which reached as far as North Africa and Germany.
  (05:10) "Initially they could only broadcast on shortwave... It wasn't until later on in the war when they built a huge transmitter called the Aspidistra..." – Terry Stiasny
• Radio Disguise: To evade Nazi censorship, broadcasts were covertly framed as local European stations featuring native speakers, musicians, and even clergy.

3. Black Propaganda – ‘Believable Lies’

• Definition: Black propaganda is essentially fake news—misinformation designed to appear as though it originates from insiders or locals, not from the British.
  (06:35) “Yes, Black propaganda is really what we would call today fake news.” – Terry Stiasny
• Sefton Delmer’s Role: Former Daily Express journalist Sefton Delmer masterminded many black propaganda operations, using rumors about corrupt Nazi officials, strategic use of banned music and even pornography.
• Accuracy and Plausibility: Authentic details were layered with fabrications, enhancing believability.
  (21:06) "The best lies... mainly contain truth but with little lies embedded in them." – Terry Stiasny

4. Internal Ethical Debates on Propaganda

• Moral Dilemmas: The "ungentlemanly" nature of deception sparked controversy, especially with figures like Sir Stafford Cripps, who disdained the use of lies and especially sexually explicit material.
  (09:05) “‘If this is the way we have to win the war, I would rather lose it.’" – Terry Stiasny, recalling Cripps' attitude
• Post-war Trust: There was real concern that if Britain’s credibility was tainted by widespread lies, it would hinder reconstruction and future influence.
  (09:52) "When we come, we hope to win the war, we need people to trust us." – Terry Stiasny

5. Churchill’s Relationship with PWE

• Direct Involvement and Ambivalence: Churchill was aware of PWE’s work and sometimes pushed for rapid development (e.g., the Aspidistra transmitter), but was at other times reticent to exploit propaganda opportunities, fearing backlash or boomerang effects.
  (11:05) “Churchill didn’t actually take all that much interest in propaganda except at key points.” – Terry Stiasny
• Example: After Rudolf Hess defected, Churchill deliberately stalled on using this for propaganda, suspecting a Nazi ploy.
  (11:45) "He thought it was a trick. He thought that perhaps it could be turned back against Britain somehow." – Terry Stiasny

6. Infighting and Unique Personalities at PWE

• ‘Misfits’: PWE attracted unconventional, argumentative, and often eccentric figures—journalists, academics, exiles, and even secretive politicians like Brendan Bracken, known for fabricating his own backstory.
• Debate Culture: The environment at Woburn was vibrant and combative, filled with debate, sometimes excessive drinking, and a certain disregard for rules.
  (17:27) "I think you needed to be up for a good argument... a lot of them weren’t very conventional." – Terry Stiasny
• ‘Believable Lies’: Many of the propagandists were adept at embellishing their own life stories as well as their professional output.

7. Devious and Memorable Operations

• On-air Killing: To update a black propaganda station’s narrative, hosts staged a live “execution” (which hilariously played twice due to a technical error).
  (23:08) "De Chef died live on air twice." – Terry Stiasny
• Radio Drama: Innovative broadcasts reenacted submarine rescues and other frontline experiences, harnessing drama for persuasion.

8. Did it Work?

• Measuring Success: Feedback came from interrogations of POWs and reactions from Nazi officials. Public denials by German authorities and the adoption of PWE-borne catchphrases (e.g., “Tunisgrad”) were taken as signs of impact.
• Leaflet Influence: Evidence suggested some Italian commanders’ decisions to surrender were swayed by PWE’s leaflets.

9. German Countermeasures

• Game of Shadows: The Germans tried jamming and fought a cat-and-mouse game on the airwaves; Delmer’s team even mimicked official Nazi broadcasts during bombing raids.

10. Tensions with British Military

• Bomber Command Row: Arthur "Bomber" Harris resented using bombers for leaflet drops, preferring to focus on bombs. A broadcast featuring Harris caused controversy for overstepping military/civilian roles.

11. Researching a Secretive Organization

• Challenges: Much information was long classified, with many relevant documents only recently released and some never published. Women’s contributions were often under-acknowledged.
• Triangulation: Stiasny compared memoirs, letters, and official documents to piece together the full story.

12. Contemporary Resonance

• Parallels to Today: The episode draws striking comparisons between wartime propaganda techniques and modern fake news, noting how technology has democratized and accelerated the creation and spread of disinformation.
  (31:10) "If Delmer returned today... he'd completely get exactly what is happening now in terms of fake news, how you spread it." – Terry Stiasny

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• (03:00) Terry Stiasny: “They really had to catch up with a new world where Germany was far ahead in terms of using radio as a form of propaganda.”
• (06:35) Terry Stiasny: “Black propaganda is really what we would call today fake news.”
• (09:05) Terry Stiasny: “If this is the way we have to win the war, I would rather lose it.” (Recalling Stafford Cripps' attitude)
• (11:05) Terry Stiasny: “Churchill didn’t actually take all that much interest in propaganda except at key points.”
• (14:20) Terry Stiasny: “One day people will say that this never happened. And I think he realizes then... if you have been shown to be telling untruths... you can’t allow any room for denial or for doubt...”
• (17:27) Terry Stiasny: “I think you needed to be up for a good argument... a lot of them weren’t very conventional.”
• (21:06) Terry Stiasny: “Yes, absolutely. And they had a whole sort of research section devoted to... finding out what was going on... so they could then add an untrue story.”
• (23:08) Terry Stiasny: "De Chef died live on air twice."
• (31:10) Terry Stiasny: “If Delmer returned today... he'd completely get exactly what is happening now in terms of fake news, how you spread it.”

Timestamps: Important Segments

• [02:30] Origins of PWE & key founders
• [04:38] Use of technology & Aspidistra transmitter
• [06:22] 'Black propaganda' – definition and examples
• [08:20] Internal opposition & ethical debates
• [10:01] Churchill’s awareness and involvement
• [12:44] Stakes of public trust and postwar consequences
• [14:20] Dachau liberation, the value of truth
• [17:14] PWE personalities: ‘misfits’ and nonconformists
• [22:36] Detailed description of specific operations (e.g., “live” on-air execution)
• [24:39] Evidence of propaganda effectiveness
• [26:31] German countermeasures and airwaves rivalry
• [27:54] Conflict with Bomber Harris and British military
• [29:18] Challenges in researching PWE’s secretive world
• [30:58] Why the story resonates today: the relevance of disinformation

Conclusion

This episode offers an eye-opening look into the shadowy, inventive, and often ethically ambiguous world of Allied propaganda during WWII through the lens of Terry Stiasny’s research. Listeners gain a nuanced understanding of how the British state waged a secret “political war”—not just against Nazi Germany, but over truth itself—and what that historical legacy means in our current disinformation age. Echoes of these wartime battles can be felt today, as the questions of belief, truth, and manipulation remain as timely and urgent as ever.