Eleanor Evans (2:37)

We're talking about a pivotal moment in the Kennedy dynasty, The summer of 1944, what friends called a turning point in the road for this family. Now, why is this so significant?

Dr. Leigh Straw (2:49)

I think there's the what ifs of the family. You know, what if certain members of the family hadn't died, what could have been into the later 20th century, 21st century. So I think that captures our imagination, but I think they are really fascinating because they're like one of those ancient Greek stories. There's all the tragedy, there's the issue of hubris and other things that run through the generations of the family. And I think they're also just deeply fascinating as a very powerful political family, as they certainly were at the heart of all of that in the 50s or the 60s.

Eleanor Evans (3:21)

Yes. I think a lot of listeners are obviously aware of this huge political legacy that they've left behind them. Might not be so aware of this pivotal summer when we meet this fascinating cast of characters. There are a lot of names to know in this story, aren't there? So I wonder if you can take us through the Kennedy family at this moment in the early 1940s.

Dr. Leigh Straw (3:43)

Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of names to remember. It's very, very true. But as an Irish Catholic American family, you can sort of follow a few of the names of the Josephs and the Patricks and the Johns and so on that they used across generations as a marker of respect for family. We have in the family of nine children and the parents, of course, and we've got the mother and father, so the father is Joseph P. Kennedy Sr. And. And we have Rose Kennedy, the mother. And in the family in the early 40s, coming into the summer of 1944, we've got nine siblings, and so the eldest is Joe Jr. Followed by Jack, John, I should say Jack, as he's known. And then we have Rosemary, who is a bit of an absence in this story after 1943 because of her then being in 24 hour daycare after a failed frontal lobotomy. So she's a bit of a silence in the story, but she's the eldest daughter. She's followed by Kathleen, who's known as Kick by her siblings and her parents. And we go from Kick to then the middle child, Eunice, who certainly felt, I think, a lot through her life that she was the middle child in that family of nine children. And from Eunice, we go to Patricia, who wanted to be known as the shortened Pat, and we go from Pat to Robert, who's better known as Bobby or Bob, and then Jean, who's the youngest daughter, and then Edward, who's the youngest child of nine, Ted or Teddy, as he's known in his younger years. So you can Imagine what it was like for Ted growing up in a family of eight older siblings.

Eleanor Evans (5:17)

Yes, a vast cast of family members indeed. And while Jack, John F. Kennedy, is undoubtedly the most well known, many of these brothers and sisters carved their own legacies in their own ways. So we will be going into some of that today as well. I wonder as well, if you can take us into a bit of the nature of what family life was like for these children. Nine children jostling for attendance and for prominence in this family. It's got to be a bit of a free for all, really, hasn't it?

Dr. Leigh Straw (5:47)

Yeah, look, it needed a lot of discipline. They certainly lived under very strict rules. So it's very well known that the Kennedy children were brought up with very punctual times. You had to be at breakfast at a certain time, lunch and also dinner at a required time. So it kept them all kind of in line. But we have to acknowledge the fact that this isn't just a kind of regular family of nine children where it would be a little bit more chaotic, where there's a lot of pressure that's certainly on the parents in looking after those children. They lived a very privileged, a very wealthy life as well. Okay. So by the time that a lot of those children are born into the 1920s, their father, Joe Sr. Is incredibly wealthy. And he and Rose are living a life from Boston, then to New York, whereby they live in quite large houses that include cooks and maids and. And nannies and other people who help with that household. So that's something that's very important. It's not like other kind of households of the time. So the manner of keeping those children all in line is not just down to mum and dad. It's very much down to the household people that are there keeping an eye on the kids. And I think for that reason, these children grow up with a very close relationship with a number of different nannies who come into the household, and they're there with them from virtually when they're born and see them through those very important formative years as well. So somebody like Jack would later reflect, along with his sister Patricia, on the close relationship they had with those nannies. And they almost kind of felt like parental figures for them as they grew up, too.

Eleanor Evans (7:17)

So, yes, a massively privileged existence. And as you say, that's a lot down to Joseph Sr. And his, you know, success and his ambition. I wonder if we can stay on him as a paternal figure in the family for a little bit, because he's obviously very important to the whole family's fates, really. What does Cape Cod specifically come to represent for him in this story?

Dr. Leigh Straw (7:39)

Well, if we go back a little bit, in terms of the ancestral heritage that is there, both the Fitzgerald and the Kennedy families. Now, Fitzgerald was Rose's maiden name, of course, and both the Fitzgeralds and the Kennedys were from Irish immigrant families. The grandparents had come over as survivors of the Irish famine and had set up in very, very poor conditions in Boston, and from those poor immigrant origins, had kind of built up political lives in both the local and the state politics in Boston and Massachusetts. But by the time we get to Joe Senior, who is very ambitious from a young age, he has a mother who wants to push him beyond those Irish immigrant origins. And so she keeps encouraging him to fit into what she sees as regular American life. And there's a manner of where he tries to go beyond those, you know, Irish American origins. And as I said, a very ambitious young man. He becomes a. A bank manager at a young age. He's very set on wanting to be accepted by the very wealthy Protestant society. Now they're not accepting him because he's Irish Catholic. He's come from these immigrant origins, and that's something that really gets his backup from a very young age. He just seeks that acceptance. But he understands that he will be accepted more if he accrues a fair amount of wealth. So he enters not only into banking, he gets involved in real estate, he gets involved in stockbrokering and so on. And we see that by the 1920s, that there's a little bit of where the door is almost open for him in that wealthy Protestant Boston or New York society. But still, he's not quite accepted. And so what he sees with Cape Cod, which is a very wealthy kind of playground for your Boston and New York families who want to summer in the likes of Hyannis Port or other areas around Cape Cod. He thinks that if he can get a big house for he and his family, maybe, just maybe, he'll be more accepted into this wealthy society. So it initially represents that. But Cape Cod, Pyanisport in particular in this Barnstable area, this takes on even more significance for Joe Senior because he's away with work so much of the year that he also wants to reconnect with his children, and he wants to reconnect with that family life. So it takes on a. An essence of privilege, but also it's very much about family time as well.

Eleanor Evans (10:03)

And the family time in your book is so vividly brought to life. I wonder if you can Take us inside, as it's called, the big White house in Hyannis Port, that becomes such an integral part of the Kennedy family life in many summers.

Dr. Leigh Straw (10:15)

Yeah, it was so integral to their family life to reconnect, whether it was coming back to summer from school or boarding schools in particular. And I'm remembering, too, the children spent a fair amount of their schooling out at boarding school, so they are away from this centre of family life. So when it comes to summer, they come back to this centre, they come back to Cape Cod, to Hyannisport and the big white house, as Jean and others within the family called it. Within that house, you have a sense of. It's large, it's incredibly large. There's 12 rooms by the 1930s. There's also a huge theatre room that is installed in the house so that Joe Senior can show the films to his children that he's bringing back from Hollywood from his business there. And within that house, obviously, you've got to cater for all these children and growing children too. Imagine the time when there's teenagers coming back for summer and, you know, Jack Kennedy is the quintessential teenager who ends up just leaving towels over the place and he leaves the bathtub running and forgets about it. The water pours through the ceiling above, much to his mother's dismay. It is a very busy household, but not only within the walls themselves, the actual whole grounds of this Hyannis Port house are used by all of the children. So there's touch football contests, they're playing tennis, they're in the water, they're swimming, they're out on various yachts and other boats and so on, and they're in contests to beat other residents in the latest yachting races and so on. So it's a very busy, bustling kind of place. And I guess the neighbours would have certainly known when all the Kennedys were back in town, for sure. Yeah.

Eleanor Evans (11:53)

They sound like very busy, very active summers. And through a lot of the activities that you just mentioned, the sailing and the football tournaments and so on, what comes out in your book is a sense of competition, particularly perhaps between the two eldest boys, Joe Jr. And Jack, I wonder if we can talk about this dynamic and what this perhaps means, feeding into some events that are to come.

Dr. Leigh Straw (12:14)

Yeah, well, I mean, in a family such as that, such a large family between siblings, there will be competitiveness, there will be rivalry, and that's certainly there from the younger years and as you say, particularly from Joe Jr. And his younger brother Jack. And there's not Much of an age difference between the two. Joe Jr. Born in 1915, and then Jack coming along in 1917. But it's both positive, that competitiveness and the rivalry that's there. It propels them on to make something of themselves. But the other side of that story, too, is that it's incredibly problematic. And so the rivalry between Joe Jr. And Jack, I wouldn't say that it's violent, but I would say that there's certainly the aspects of bullying that goes on. There's certainly aspects whereby that physical confrontation, I mean, it leads to Jack at a young age where he has to get a number of stitches because the two of them have run into each other's head, chasing each other in opposite directions around the house. But I think the competitiveness between Joe Jr. And Jack was that there was the understanding that Most certainly Joe Jr. Was the father's favorite. He was the one that was being propelled for political success. And certainly once Joe Sr. Realizes he won't have his own political career, he then looks to his son, Joe Jr. To take the family ambitions much further than he can. And I guess in that way, Joey Jr. Has set himself up as the mainstay of the family, the standard bearer of the family. And so for Jack, he's a little bit in the shadow of his brother for many of those earlier years. But of course, as events have it, in 1943, it's Jack who becomes the war hero. So that propels us into 1944, whereby the oldest brother, Joe Jr. He wants to beat the younger one. He wants to be the war hero.

Eleanor Evans (13:56)

Yes. So let's rocket forward in this story. You've given us a great sense of the family dynamic and their summers on Cape Cod, and then the family sort of spreads out a little bit more. Where do we find various members of this family as we go into the 1940s? Can we go a bit more into Joe and Jack's position in the war? And where is Kic as well? She's a very important part of this story.

Dr. Leigh Straw (14:18)

Absolutely, yes. What I found as a historian looking into this story is the fact that you're following their lives in different places. So we've talked about it being the summer retreat is in Cape Cod, but not all of them are at Cape Cod. And so in this summer, if we get into the 1940s and the summers that bring them back together, they're meant to do that because they are often different places. So we've got even before the war starts and even before America enters into the war itself, after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. You've got both Joe Jr. And Jack have studied at Harvard University. Jack is still studying at Harvard University as he enlists for the war. And they both enlist into the Navy. We have Kathleen, we have Kick, who is over in England. She initially has gone there because of her father being ambassador from 1938. And so she's been there from 1938, 1939. Very interested in England, in high society, the aristocracy. All of this is very fascinating to Kick. And she's fallen in love as well. And so having fallen in love is one thing, but what we also see is that her time in England has drawn her into an aristocratic Protestant English family. And so this is a scandal that is Brewing from 1943 into 1944. And her great love, Billy, who comes from this aristocratic family running for politics now, he's quite conservative, much like her father. But this issue of religion is a very divisive one in the family. And so this is all brewing. We see that happening overseas with kic. So the family, her parents in particular, are very happy if she could come back to Hyannis Port. They don't want her to marry Billy. They don't want those connections to be with the Cavendishers and that wider aristocratic background that is very Protestant. And Billy's mother and father are also concerned because they don't want him marrying a Catholic girl. So there's this really striking scandal unfolding. And then we've got. We always overlook, in a sense, the younger ones that are coming through as well. And what you need to do with the telling of this story is to not think of them as Bobby as he is in the 1960s, or Ted Kennedy as he becomes the third longest serving senator in US history. Well, I want readers to position them at this point in the early 1940s. We've got Bobby, who is at Harvard. You know, by 1944, he's only 18. Ted himself, having been born in 1932, by 1944, is only 12. He's very lonely. He's away at boarding school in Boston, and he's really missing his family. He's bullied while he's away in boarding school. And so there's a sense of a loneliness that surrounds the youngest member of the family. Now we've got the sisters who are so fascinating as well, beyond just Kathleen, beyond Kick, who has had wonderful biographies written about her. We've also, as I mentioned before, Rosemary's away in care. She's a silence coming through in the family by late 1943, 1944. But then we've got Eunice, the middle child, trying to find her way in the family, who's also studying away. But she's trying to figure out what is she going to do, what is she going to make in terms of her own life? And she knows she can't compete with her older brothers. She knows she's not going to take on that kind of political life. So she's trying to eke out a way of, what will I be? Patricia? She's already interested in movies. She's been drawn in from a young age into the world of Hollywood. And so she has in the back of her mind, while she's studying at Rosemont College, that she wants to get involved not only in the arts because she's studying a Bachelor of Arts, but she wants to get involved in producing and perhaps take her over to Hollywood. So there's a bit of that interest that's brewing with young Patricia, who at the time has just turned 20. And then there's Jean, who's the youngest sister, who has kind of tried to keep up with the older ones, but she's very much closer to Ted. So in this summer of 44, she's leaving school excited to catch up with her youngest brother, Ted, who later on was reflected as being her soulmate within the family. So as the youngest members of the family, they kind of hold together, and it's an element of support between the two of them.

Eleanor Evans (18:17)

These bonds and sort of alliances are really fascinating to read about. And I think, as you say, it's so interesting to reposition these figures who loom so large in American history and popular history, and reposition them almost as vulnerable young people who are sort of finding their way. It's really quite moving to read about. And you've mentioned Rosemary and you've mentioned that she is a silence in this story. For listeners who aren't aware of what happened to this young woman in the early 1940s, can you tell us what happened to Rosemary?

Dr. Leigh Straw (18:46)

Rosemary is a really interesting story within the family, but when you know more about her story, it's quite devastating. It's a very sad story within that family. Now, there's a lot of different perspectives around why she was then, you know, she suffered from this failed lobotomy in 1943. Now, her father was told by medical professionals that this was something they would do because by that stage in the family, they said that Rosemary had become a little bit problematic. There's been questions about her behavior. It was said she wasn't keeping up with her siblings and her father and her mother had been concerned that she was behaviourally quite far behind. And then by her early 1920s, there's a bit of concern that she's not as aware as others of her age in terms of the dangers of, you know, meeting up with young men. And so they became increasingly concerned about perhaps her sexual background and if she was going to become involved with young men and didn't quite have the behavioral capacity to fully understand the complications associated with that. So they're given this medical advice that a partial lobotomy would sort of correct her. Now, there's been lots of questions through the years about exactly, well, what was going on with Rosemary. Was it simply that she was dyslexic? Was it that she was behaviourally behind? Was there more going on in terms of perhaps there is autism or there is ADHD or what we might have better understandings about today? But I think the reality and the sad part of her story is that that medical advice is really wrong. Her father has signed her up for this. She goes with her father while this procedure is conducted on her. And she absolutely adored her father. And so that's a sad part of this story, that a man she so adored listened to these medical professionals. And what happens after that operation is that basically Rosemary has about the behavioral capacity of a five or six year old for the rest of her life. She has a permanent limp. She's not physically or mentally the same as she was when she goes in for that operation. And there's a silence that descends, that her siblings don't really know what happened to her. There's different stories that are shared that she's off teaching in the Midwest or she's gone into care because this is the best thing for her. And so because they become a very prominent political family by the 1950s, not much is said about Rosemary. She's definitely not there in public. There's debates about was she kept out of sight or was it for her own good? So it really depends on how you interpret that situation. But it certainly meant that by the 1960s they also become a family who are public champions for people who have different abilities that we might refer to. And she also is brought back later on into the family and is publicly seen with the family. But it's such a heartbreaking story to understand what had happened to her when, maybe because of her birth, her mother argued her birth meant that she was behaviorally behind because she wasn't delivered when she should have been, because they were waiting on the doctor Turning up to deliver Rosemary, perhaps that's something that contributed from a young age, but the devastation, which you can overlook with the story is that failed lobotomy. And she is just not the same, mentally or physically, ever again for the rest of her life, which is many decades.

Eleanor Evans (22:03)

Yes, it's very difficult not to be very affected by this story. It's a very moving chapter. And I think it also speaks to something you've alluded to, which is Joseph P Kennedy's sense, whether it be caution, whether it be control of this family image more widely. I think there's a quote you use in the book that's something like, I'll probably botch the paraphrase, but never commit anything to paper you wouldn't want on the front page of the New York Times. What's your sense of that?

Dr. Leigh Straw (22:30)

Oh, that was so true. So I actually had to look at the family correspondence with that in mind. I had to think about the fact that there were so few references to Rosemary from late 1943 onwards, particularly 1944. There's, like, two references to her in the family correspondence. And that struck me. I thought, why is she not even being mentioned? But if you think about Joe Senior and his ambitions and that public profile, what you then see is that they're not talking about her in correspondence, because that might be kept for future references or future research material, as they were hoping. But also, I think, with this too, is recognising that there was such stigma associated with people who had disabilities who were behaviourally behind that sense of what is normal and not normal. I mean, that was something that was very much a stigma at the time and would have influenced her mother and her father. And I think in getting into that story, I tried to look at it from different perspectives and to try and understand that not only for them as parents, but the social part of that story. But as you say, of course, there is the public profile that they were very keen to keep in a very clear, positive manner. I mean, imagine what it was like in that family, too, that competitiveness, the trying to keep up, to do something with your life. And the pressure that Rosemary certainly felt by her teenage years and her early.

Eleanor Evans (23:49)

Twenties, Immense privilege and immense pressure as well.

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Eleanor Evans (25:27)

I wonder if we can return to Jack and Jo, who are both at war and their various accomplishments and ambitions. What's happening with them in wartime?

Dr. Leigh Straw (25:37)

What's very interesting, what's unfolding, you've got Joe Jr. And Jack engaging in war service in a war that their father didn't actually want America being involved in. So that's quite an interesting turn of events. But they are patriotic. They enlist, they get enlist into the Navy. It's a bit different for the two of them because Jack, his health is a problem from a young age and so he was kind of lucky to get picked up for war service in the first place. He's quite sickly, he has various ailments and so on. His back isn't so good, but he's a lieutenant, however we might pronounce that around the world. And he gets involved with the PT boats and he is in charge of PT109. And in 1943, as we see in the middle of that year that actually is hit by a Japanese destroyer. He loses two men on that ship. But the act of heroism that comes out of it is that he's able to save the other men on the PT109. And they kind of skip between different islands until they are rescued by a couple of local guys from the Solomon Islands who then alert the Navy command to there having been survivors on PT109. Now he's heralded as a war hero with some help from his father, who has friends in the press and the media who can run very favorable stories about this young Jack Kennedy. Now what happens with Joe Jr. Is he's just continuing to do war service, but he also becomes engaged in very secretive missions, bombing missions over Europe, over major German sites and supply sites and so on. And they are experimenting in these missions with drones. And so the idea is that there will be bombs that are loaded onto the plane. The idea is that you're able to eject from the plane and that the bombs will go over the sites, and then nobody is harmed in terms of those who are running the missions. And they were problematic because they weren't always successful. And there was the chance that it just would not be successful. And you might not get out of that. But Joey Jr. Has continued to do these missions because, as I said before, he wants to be the war hero. He wants to beat out this younger brother and have the stories about him. And he's already done enough missions, but he volunteers for more missions and he volunteers for another mission rather than actually take his leave and go back to Cape Cod to be with the family by August of 1944. And so what I found really fascinating, and the letters and the correspondence was you get this real sense of parents wanting their children back for summer, especially Joe Jr. To take his leave, come back to Cape Cod, spend the rest of the summer with them. And so initially, he'll be back in July. Then he's not back in July. They're hoping he'll be back in August. Then he's writing and saying, I'm not going to be back at the start of August. It looks like I'll be back in September. So there's this real angst in the family of just wanting Joe Jr. Their eldest, the hopeful, back home.

Eleanor Evans (28:24)

So These are the two events looming over this family in the summer. Joe Jr. S absence in Europe, flying these bombing missions, and kick Kathleen's relationship, that's causing quote, unquote, scandal within certain circles. And certainly Rose, the matriarch, is not happy about this match. So these two issues are really causing a lot of tension. What plays out then? That means that this summer is such a pivotal moment for this dynasty.

Dr. Leigh Straw (28:49)

Well, it's such a pivotal summer as we enter into the summer, of course, Kik does marry, you know, so that breaks her mother's heart. And so there's a lot of healing that then needs to take place and in the family. But the importance of that summer is the fact that Joe Jr. Doesn't come back. And so he dies in a bombing mission with his co pilot. And tragically, particularly for Rose, who was so devoutly Catholic, so was Joe Sr. But Rose was Very much that devout Catholic matriarch. And what is devastating for her is that there is no body, no remains are found. And Joe Jr. Rather than be able to eject out of the blame of this co pilot, the bomb goes off, the plane explodes, and nothing, nothing is found in terms of he and his co pilot. And that happens early in August of 1944. And so you really see this pivotal moment change the dynamics of the family, because he is the favorite son, he's a political hopeful. He was meant to finish his war service, come back and then enter into politics. And that doesn't happen. And so there we have a father, Joe Sr. Completely devastated, in disarray. What is going to happen with the family now with Joe Jr. Gone? And I think what I wanted to capture with the telling of the story is not just the fact that we know this paves the way for Jack to then go into politics. He's the one, you know, eventually who takes those political ambitions to the White House. And I didn't want to just focus on that. I wanted to focus on a very real family story, that this is something that was devastating, if we can understand that, what was that like for the family? They don't know what's ahead of them. They don't know what's going to happen in 45, in the 1950s or 60s, whatever it might be. So in that critical moment when they receive the news that Joe Jr. Is lost, that he is likely dead, that we have to understand as a mother and father receiving that news. And I wanted to communicate what that was also like for his siblings, too, and just how devastating it was.

Eleanor Evans (30:44)

Yes, I think that grief is really palpable. It comes through, and I think you've detailed it already. All of these siblings have their own ambitions and they're forging their own paths at school or at college. And I think it does affect them all in very different and very moving ways. I want to pick up on what you said about Jack picking up this political mantle. And I think there's a myth that the focus, the laser beam of his father's attention immediately shifts to Jack. And he sort of points and says, you're it. You're the political feature of this family. Now, what did you find about the reality of this idea?

Dr. Leigh Straw (31:18)

Yeah, what I found around that is that the story that, you know, Jack is next, as you say, that he's next in line for politics. And so very quickly, he's picking up those ambitions. That's not actually true. And that's the work of what historians do we know that there's mythology around particular public figures? We know that there's a myth making. We know that there's also stories that get shared again and again, and somehow they don't actually stack up with the evidence. So you've got to go back to. To the primary sources and figure out what actually unfolded. And so what was very interesting in relation to that is the fact that Jack is more preoccupied, really preoccupied with trying to get through his grief, as his siblings are, his parents are. So they're not immediately turning to Jack because they're in mourning. They're trying to understand getting through their grief as best they can in the summer of 19. Now, Jack had always been interested in politics. He was interested as a student at Harvard University, but at the time, he's kind of grappling with, does he become a journalist? Does he become a professor of history? Does he become a writer? So he's very creative. And so that background, I think, fuels his political career and is with him for the rest of his life. And it's really not even in the weeks that follow that summer, not even really in the months that followed. It probably is BY maybe about 1945 that we see Jack seriously thinking about a political career. And also something that his father thinks, well, you know, maybe Jack could do this, because Joe Sr. Didn't think that Jack was going to be a politician in the family, so he really has to come around to that. But I think there was a genuineness that was there that Jack was interested in politics and he didn't just enter into it because his father wanted him to or there was family ambitions. He did it because he wanted to do that. And I think that's quite important.

Eleanor Evans (33:06)

Right. And I think a lot of listeners will know what happens next with his political career. It's obviously well documented in many of our other podcasts. So do please go search on our channel for other conversations about JFK and his political career and legacy as well. If we can go back to Cape Cod for just a moment, because obviously this summer, that they have many of them together in this house is such a seminal one for the family. But they do return. It still keeps its place as a central focus of family life. You've been there yourself. I wonder if you can give us a sense of what it's like today, what it was like in the decades following, and what it means in the wider story of the Kennedys today.

Dr. Leigh Straw (33:47)

Oh, look, it's still a remarkably historic place. When you go there now, and it opens into view, you can walk around on the beach, and then you walk through a few of the streets of Hyannisbourne. And I've done it a few times, and it's almost like you round on the sand, and suddenly there is this large Kennedy compound, the main house at the front, and then also Bobby and Jack's houses, which were there on the back of the property as well. And so it still holds that kind of marvel. It still is very important in the history of the area. Locals talk about it. People still do that walk to where the former Kennedy compound is. But, you know, it's very different from what it was. And I think it holds historic value because when you're there, you can imagine the presidential helicopter landing, you can imagine Jack arriving and future summers where he's president, you know, all that they've achieved in that place. But I think what it really holds in terms of the area, I mean, it's not one of the biggest houses anymore. There are so many larger houses that have been built around it in the decades that have followed. But what it has retained is that sense of history. The house hasn't been dramatically changed on the outside. You still have that very large part porch that goes around the house where you can imagine the Kennedys sitting there. You can imagine them as they come back in that summer of 44 and the summers that followed, lounging about on the porch, playing touch football on the large lawn at the front. And what I found really striking about the place itself is that you can stand there on the beach and you're imagining all of that history that is around you. But what really stands out is there's a quiet calm to the area as well. If you pick the right time of the year, it could be very busy at different times of the year, but in a quieter period of the end of the year, perhaps towards the end of the summer, it's very peaceful, it's very calm. And you can certainly see why they kept coming back to that big White house, coming back to the Kennedy compound, because it was their retreat from what were very busy lives for all of the Kennedys, whether it's a president or senators or the sisters at Eunice in particular, who had her own wonderful career and community contributions as well. You do get a sense of it being a very important family place. And the whole area. Hyannis, you know, the JFK Museum and Hyannis in particular, they've done a wonderful job of memorializing the Kennedys in Cape Cod.

Eleanor Evans (36:09)

And I wonder if I could get a final thought from you, Leigh. On your own journey to writing about the Kennedys.

Dr. Leigh Straw (36:15)

I laugh because I get asked that and I always wonder, should I be really quite honest about this? And I think perhaps I should. I mean, I discovered the Kennedys when I was a 13 year old. I've always been interested in history, as my accent might reveal. I've lived in Australia for a while, but I actually was a kid in Scotland for a lot of my formative years. And so my mum and dad would take us around to different historic sites in Scotland and England and around the parts. So I'd always been interested in history from a young age. But as a teenager, I was 13 and I opened up an encyclopedia and I went to a page and it had a name, Robert Francis Kennedy, and it had a picture of rfk. And I sort of, as a teenager, let's be honest, went, wow, who's that? He's really good looking. And so that was kind of my foray into the Kennedys. And from there I just became very interested in the family. I've always been interested in American history and then through the years, it had always been playing in the back of my mind. I really wanted to write this story, I wanted to write a book on the Kennedys. And so, so I've come To this point, 34 years later, I've revealed my age, but 34 years later, after that 13 year old wanted to tell that story. I've done that and it has that sense of what I'd like to inspire with other people is that when you've got a dream, hold onto that dream. It doesn't matter how long it takes, just keep pursuing that dream. And it's a wonderful thing to see that come to fruition. But yeah, the interest is there. Historically, I think the interest is there because they are just such a fascinating family. For all the what's positive, negative, the flaws, the achievements, everything. It's such an interesting, captivating story as a whole.

Podcast Host (37:52)

That was Dr. Leigh Straw speaking to Eleanor Evans, Leigh's associate Professor in history at the University of Notre Dame, Australia, and the author of the Kennedys at Cape Cod, 1944.

Dr. Leigh Straw (38:06)

Foreign.

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