History Extra Podcast — “The Tangled Legacies of Two Americas”
Date: August 17, 2025
Host: Eleanor Evans
Guest: Professor Greg Grandin

Episode Overview

This episode of the History Extra podcast features a deep conversation between host Eleanor Evans and historian Greg Grandin, discussing his new book America America. The discussion traverses the complex, intertwined histories of Latin America and the United States, from the brutal Spanish conquests to the modern day. Grandin explores how these regions have at times mirrored, influenced, and defined themselves against each other, shaping pivotal concepts like conquest, liberty, nationhood, and international order. The episode sheds light on how these interactions fostered diverging principles—such as individual vs. social rights—and shaped modern geopolitics.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mutual Influence and Name Politics

• Grandin’s Thesis:
  • The two Americas continuously shaped and defined each other's development—not only politically and economically, but in fundamental ideas about nationhood, empire, and identity.
  • “These are two ways of thinking about the New World that are very similar, except for one accent mark.” (Grandin, 04:12)
• Name Usage and Identity:
  • "America" means different things in the North and Latin America—US residents often equate “America” with the USA, while Latin Americans use it to refer to the whole continent.
  • Grandin highlights cultural and political resentment over the US “taking” the name, emphasizing how such underlying tensions run deep.
    • "[Naming] is deeply embedded in Latin American political culture." (Grandin, 06:03)

2. Spanish & English Conquests: Brutality & Self-Justification

• Brutality of Spanish Conquest:
  • The arrival of the Spanish in the 16th century led to what some call “the greatest human mortality event in world history,” with roughly 90% of the 90 million indigenous people dying within a century.
    • “[The] Spanish conquest was brutal beyond comprehension.” (Grandin, 06:22)
• Emergence of Self-Critique in Catholicism:
  • Figures like Bartolomé de Las Casas challenged the morality of conquest, sowing seeds for universal political rights and interrogating the justifications of colonial violence.
    • “Las Casas was one of the first people to say that all human beings are equal.” (Grandin, 09:18)
• English Conquest and Evasion:
  • English colonizers, arriving after epidemics decimated indigenous populations, rationalized their expansion as divinely sanctioned and sidestepped overt acknowledgment of atrocity—fueling a theme of “moral evasion.”

3. Foundations for Liberty and International Order

• From Conquest to Concepts of Liberty:
  • The revolutionary periods in both Americas drew from and responded to the moral crises of their colonial pasts.
  • Latin American critique of the US, particularly about conquest, drew on frameworks developed during the anti-Spanish struggle.
    • “Latin America's critique of the United States is so consequential and so enduring...because it was first directed at Spain.” (Grandin, 12:43)
• Contrasting State-Building:
  • The US envisioned itself as a single republic on a “blank” continent, reviving conquest doctrines.
  • Latin America, emerging as several nations, championed interstate cooperation—prophesying future institutions like the League of Nations and UN.
    • “Latin America came up with the principle that the first order of international law should be that nations have interests in common and cooperation should be the guiding principle.” (Grandin, 15:22)

4. Simón Bolívar and the Quest for Social Rights

• Bolívar’s Unique Legacy:
  • Revered as Latin America’s George Washington—yet more existentially anguished over whether independence could truly atone for the conquest’s injustices.
    • “He understood independence as an atonement for the conquest, and he wasn't sure that the atonement would be redeemed.” (Grandin, 19:26)
  • Bolivar and other leaders embedded the abolition of servitude and the expansion of social rights into the foundation of new republics.
• Emergence of Social Rights:
  • Unlike US “hysterical Lockeanism” (Grandin quoting Louis Hartz), Latin America fused individual rights with social rights (education, healthcare, etc.), influencing constitutions continent-wide.
    • “The world's very first social democratic constitution…was in Mexico as a result of the Mexican Revolution in 1917…[It] predated Weimar.” (Grandin, 22:01)

5. Contrasting Doctrines: Monroe Doctrine vs. Cooperative Principles

• Origins and Ambiguity of Monroe Doctrine:
  • Initially embraced by Latin America for its anti-colonial message, but its “right to intervene” clause became justification for repeated US interventions as informal empire.
    • “Monroe Doctrine became a kind of urtext…a statement of informal empire.” (Grandin, 25:04)
• Pan-Americanism and Birth of International Institutions:
  • Latin American principles at the heart of Pan-Americanism informed both the League of Nations and later the UN, even if ultimately overshadowed by US assertions of dominance and compromise.
    • “The very idea of nations cooperating together…comes out of Latin America.” (Grandin, 26:17)

6. The Cold War and Its Aftermath

• Cold War, Intervention, and the Monroe Doctrine:
  • Monroe Doctrine invoked to support repressive regimes and anti-communist militaries, rationalizing US-backed violence as protection from “foreign” ideologies.
    • “Communism itself was seen as a foreign ideology, and Monroe Doctrine was invoked as a way to justify putting it down.” (Grandin, 28:36)
• 1930s-40s Convergence and Hope:
  • In the 1930s-40s, FDR’s New Deal sensibilities aligned with Latin American social democracy, fostering a brief period of reformist convergence during WWII.
    • “By 1945, pretty much every Latin American country was formally social democratic.” (Grandin, 32:08)

7. Contemporary Lessons and Present Tensions

• Learning from Latin America:
  • The persistent thread: Latin America continues to champion social democratic principles, fusing liberalism and material guarantees—contrasted with the US’s recurring turn to toxic nationalism or culture wars.
    • “Latin America…is one of the last regions in the world that takes the promise of the Enlightenment at its word.” (Grandin, 34:13)
• Export of US Culture Wars:
  • Recent years have witnessed US-style “culture wars” and reactionary politics seeping into Latin American politics, sometimes undermining its humanist legacies.
    • “The danger about US brand of culture wars is that because it's never about any one thing…there's no way of ending it.” (Grandin, 35:04)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Competing Meanings of ‘America’:

  “America refers to all of the Americas. For most people...in the United States, America means their particular country...these naming practices, this kind of resentment that the United States stole our name, is deeply embedded.”
  — Greg Grandin, (04:12–06:03)

• On Brutality and Critique:

  “90 million people lived in the Americas at the time that Columbus arrived...within a century, 90% of them were gone...it spurred a critique within Catholicism...Las Casas was one of the first people to say that all human beings are equal.”
  — Greg Grandin, (06:22–10:02)

• On Foundational Differences:

  “The United States came into the world a single republic on what their founders imagined…was an empty continent. Spanish America came in already a League of nations...what emerged was the idea that the interstate system should be organized around principles of cooperation and shared interest rather than competition.”
  — Greg Grandin, (14:29–15:22)

• On Social Rights:

  “The state...should stand up and capture surplus wealth and redistribute it in the form of education, health care, old age, pensions and what not. The world’s very first social democratic constitution...was in Mexico as a result of the Mexican Revolution in 1917.”
  — Greg Grandin, (22:13–22:41)

• On the Monroe Doctrine's Twisted Application:

  “It's like other nations have laws, the United States has doctrines...the Monroe Doctrine was invoked as part of this idea that communism was a foreign, non organic ideology...and Monroe Doctrine was invoked as a way to justify putting it down.”
  — Greg Grandin, (28:36)

• On Contemporary Nationalism:

  “Latin Americans didn’t respond to the dislocations of neoliberalism and globalization by turning to a kind of nasty, toxic nationalism…their nationalism was always a stepping stone to a greater universalism.”
  — Greg Grandin, (33:41)

• On ‘Gulf of America’ Proposal:

  “Of course it's ridiculous. Nobody’s going to call the Gulf of Mexico…the Gulf of America except people who are ideologically committed to Trump...they could put an accent on the E...of course, nobody in the United States would understand that was a compromise...”
  — Greg Grandin, (36:42)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:28] — Overview of book’s central thesis and concepts
• [06:22] — Spanish conquest: demographic impact; emergence of critique
• [12:43] — Formation of liberty and critique of conquest in revolutionary era
• [18:13] — Simón Bolívar; origins of social rights in Latin America
• [23:55] — The Monroe Doctrine: origins and evolving interpretations
• [26:17] — Latin American influence on League of Nations and UN
• [28:36] — Cold War interventions; Monroe Doctrine invoked to justify repression
• [30:14] — Divergence and lessons from the 20th century; enduring social democratic ideals
• [34:37] — Modern politics: culture wars, nationalism, erosion of social ideals
• [36:42] — Responding to the ‘Gulf of America’ naming controversy

Conclusion

This episode offers a sweeping yet insightful tour of five centuries of inter-American relations, unpacking how the United States and Latin America, often in tension and dialogue, have forged distinct yet profoundly connected political traditions. Grandin, through both scholarly rigor and vivid narrative, traces how the legacies of conquest, revolution, and doctrine continue to shape both continents' destinies—and challenges listeners to rethink what “America” truly means.