The unification of Italy: everything you wanted to know

Summary

History Extra Podcast - Episode Summary: "The Unification of Italy: Everything You Wanted to Know"

Release Date: May 3, 2025
Host: Spencer Mizzen
Guest: David Lavin, Associate Professor at the University of Nottingham
Production: Daniel Kramer Arden

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Introduction

In this episode of the History Extra Podcast, hosted by Spencer Mizzen and featuring historian David Lavin, the complex and transformative period of the Italian unification, known as the Risorgimento, is thoroughly examined. The discussion delves into the political, social, and military facets that shaped modern Italy, exploring key figures, pivotal battles, and the lasting legacy of unification.

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Understanding the Risorgimento

David Lavin begins by defining the Risorgimento as the series of political and military events that culminated in the unification of Italy in 1861. He explains, “[...] the key process I would have thought would be after the end of the Napoleonic wars through to the final and complete unification of Italy in 1870” (02:38). Lavin emphasizes the significance of this period, noting that the modern Italian state grapples with regional identities and the legacy of unification’s challenges. He states, “The modern Italian state is a slightly problematic state in that an awful lot of Italians today still don't feel particularly attached to it” (03:55).

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Historical Backstory and Momentum

When exploring the origins and rise of the unification movement, Lavin traces the roots back to the aftermath of the Roman Empire and the Napoleonic Wars. He highlights the impact of Napoleon Bonaparte’s campaigns in Italy, which introduced administrative reforms but also fueled nationalist sentiments. Lavin remarks, “Napoleon's satellite states... subjects to French rule... an efficient administration, standardized laws...” (05:53), illustrating the dual impact of foreign domination and the allure of modernization.

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Popular Support and Regional Divides

Addressing whether unification enjoyed widespread popular support, Lavin acknowledges the debate among historians. He suggests that while nationalism provided an ideological framework, genuine enthusiasm was often limited to the educated elite. Lavin observes, “The vast majority of Italians didn't wake up in the morning thinking, oh, I'm Italian” (09:43), pointing out the strong regional identities and varying loyalties that complicated unified national sentiment.

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Political Landscape Pre-Unification

On the eve of the unification movement gaining momentum, Lavin paints a picture of a fragmented Italy comprising multiple states under foreign and domestic rulers. He details the major states, including the Kingdom of Lombardy-Venetia under Austrian control, the Kingdom of Sardinia-Piedmont, the Papal States, and the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. Lavin explains, “There's a patchwork of different states... even within individual states, there's a lot of difference” (12:19), highlighting the political fragmentation that unification sought to overcome.

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Key Figures: Giuseppe Mazzini and Giuseppe Garibaldi

Giuseppe Mazzini emerges as a central ideological figure in the Risorgimento. Lavin describes Mazzini as the "soul" of the movement, whose democratic republicanism inspired many despite his limited direct political success. He states, “Mazzini... spends most of his life in exile... inspires Garibaldi” (17:27), emphasizing Mazzini’s role in shaping the ideological underpinnings of unification.

Giuseppe Garibaldi, on the other hand, represents the romantic and militaristic force driving unification. Lavin highlights Garibaldi’s charismatic leadership and military prowess, stating, “Garibaldi is arguably the central figure in this entire movement and certainly the most romantic” (21:31). He recounts Garibaldi’s exploits, including his daring campaign in Sicily, which significantly advanced the cause of unification despite challenges.

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Militaristic Campaigns: Five Landmark Moments

To simplify the intricate military endeavors of the Risorgimento, Lavin outlines five critical milestones:

1. The Wars of 1848-1849:
   Lavin recounts the unsuccessful attempts by the Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia to challenge Austrian dominance, with defeats at the Battles of Custoza and Novara (25:49).

2. The Franco-Piedmontese Alliance (1859):
   Formed by Count Camillo di Cavour, this alliance with Napoleon III led to victories at the Battles of Magenta and Solferino, effectively weakening Austrian control in Northern Italy (25:49).

3. Garibaldi’s Expedition to Sicily (1860):
   Garibaldi’s landing at Marsala with a small force led to the swift conquest of Sicily and Naples, significantly expanding the Italian unification movement (25:49).

4. The Siege of Gaeta (1861):
   The prolonged defense by Bourbon forces in Gaeta marked the consolidation of Southern Italy into the unified state despite fierce resistance (25:49).

5. The Austro-Prussian War and the Final Annexation of Venetia and Rome (1866-1870):
   The decisive Prussian victory led to Austria ceding Venetia to Italy, while the Franco-Prussian conflict facilitated the annexation of Rome, completing unification (32:21).

Lavin emphasizes the strategic alliances and international support that were crucial in these military successes, particularly the role of Britain’s diplomatic recognition.

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The Aftermath of Unification

Post-unification Italy faced significant internal challenges. Lavin discusses widespread dissatisfaction, especially in the South, where repression and economic disparities fueled ongoing unrest. He notes, “Between 1861 and 1865, there is almost constant rebellion in the south” (37:37), highlighting the persistent regional tensions that plagued the newly unified nation.

Politically, the Kingdom of Italy struggled with limited suffrage and economic difficulties, leading to mass emigration and continued social fragmentation. Lavin points out, “Economic problems that lead to mass immigration... the emigration to Germany and to France... the majority of Argentina's population are in fact Italian in origin” (39:29).

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Legacy and Modern Perceptions

Garibaldi’s enduring legacy is a testament to his pivotal role in unification. Lavin describes him as a national hero whose image transcended political divides: “Garibaldi becomes this one national hero you can't have a go at” (39:32). His contributions are honored across Italy, from statues to street names, symbolizing the unifying spirit he embodied.

However, the Risorgimento remains a contested historical narrative within Italy. Lavin observes, “It's for some Italians it remains divisive” (41:36), noting ongoing regional separatist movements and debates over the portrayal of unification heroes. The episode concludes by reflecting on how the Risorgimento continues to influence contemporary Italian politics and identity, serving as a focal point for both national pride and regional dissent.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• David Lavin (02:38):
  “The Risorgimento is the term that we generally use to describe the processes leading up to and including the unification of Italy.”

• David Lavin (03:55):
  “The modern Italian state is a slightly problematic state in that an awful lot of Italians today still don't feel particularly attached to it.”

• David Lavin (09:43):
  “The vast majority of Italians didn't wake up in the morning thinking, oh, I'm Italian, I want to get rid of my Austrian or Bourbon or Papal ruler.”

• David Lavin (12:19):
  “There's a patchwork of different states... even within individual states, there's a lot of difference.”

• David Lavin (17:27):
  “Giuseppe Mazzini is somehow the soul. He's the sort of spiritual guide of Italy.”

• David Lavin (21:31):
  “Garibaldi is arguably the central figure in this entire movement and certainly the most romantic.”

• David Lavin (25:49):
  “First of all, we have to think about the 1848, 1849 wars.”

• David Lavin (37:37):
  “Between 1861 and 1865, there is almost constant rebellion in the south.”

• David Lavin (39:32):
  “Garibaldi becomes this one national hero you can't have a go at.”

• David Lavin (41:36):
  “It's for some Italians it remains divisive.”

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Conclusion

The unification of Italy, as explored in this episode of the History Extra Podcast, was a multifaceted process driven by passionate leaders, strategic alliances, and significant military campaigns. While it successfully forged a modern nation-state, the Risorgimento left enduring regional divisions and socio-political challenges that continue to shape Italy today. David Lavin’s insights provide a nuanced understanding of this pivotal moment in history, highlighting both the triumphs and tribulations of Italy’s journey towards unification.

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Transcript

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Right.

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[David Lavin]

Hi David. We're here today to talk about the unification of Italy, the Risorgimento. I wonder if you could start by giving us a really brief introduction to the Risorgimento. What was it, when did it happen? And why is it so important?

[Advertiser 2]

Okay, so the Risorgimento is the term that we generally use to describe the processes leading up to and including the unification of Italy. Italy, of course, had been divided since the fall of the Roman Empire, but really we're talking about a process that most people would date from about the time of the French Revolution. Some people might date it back to the 18th century enlightenment. There's always this case of when does something begin as a historical phenomenon. But really the key process I would have thought would be after the end of the Napoleonic wars through to the final and complete unification of Italy in 1870. You could make a case that there are little bits and pieces of Italy that aren't acquired until the end of the First World War, but really the main process of unification that takes place between the major revolutions of 1848, 1849, and the conquest of Rome by the new young Italian state in 1870.

[David Lavin]

Okay, and Neil will inevitably return to this point in greater detail later on, but just in a nutshell, can you just explore why this process was so important? Why should we talk about the Risorgimento today?

[Advertiser 2]

The modern Italian state is a slightly problematic state in that an awful lot of Italians today still don't feel particularly attached to it. I mean, you can say that patriotism and nationalism are a slippery business almost everywhere. But in Italy, more than in most European countries, there is an incredibly intense sense of regional identity. There's a bit of a cliche about a north south divide, but it's a genuine one, which is economic as well as cultural. And a lot of Italian politics since unification has been couched in a sense. What went wrong with unification, you know, are the problems that Italy faces today still a legacy of what happened over 150 years ago. I think the other key thing is that it's a question of Italian identity. So you've got to remember that when Italy was united in the 19th century, people differ. The most famous historian of the language is a guy called De Mauro, said that probably only about 5% of the population could speak the national language and everyone else was speaking so called dialects. So it's a very, very diverse country and it remains a very diverse country. On the other hand, there's a really strong sense of Italianness. We all know what we think of when we think about Italy, and I think most Italians know what they think of about Italy. So it's really a story of tensions between people, in a sense pulling apart and feeling very different, and people coming together with shared values, shared political aims, shared political and economic goals.

[David Lavin]

Great stuff. Thank you for that. So writing in on Instagram. Rachel Ifang wonders if you could provide the backstory to the Risorgimento. So, you know, just to rewind a little bit. How long had the cause of reunification existed and when did it really begin to gather momentum?

[Advertiser 2]

Well, the first thing I'd say is it's not really reunification, because the unity had existed under the Roman Empire, which isn't really an Italian empire. You know, it's right up to the borders of Scotland and Hadrian's Wall, and it extends into North Africa. And lots of Roman emperors, of course, weren't Italian. They were born all over the place in modern day France, in modern day Serbia, in modern day North Africa. So its unification is the first time in the sense that Italy is united. And there are lots of people who wonder about this peninsula, which is very obviously a clear geographical region from really the fall of the Roman Empire onwards, what it is to be Italian. So you'll get someone like the late 15th, early 16th century Florentine political philosopher, Niccolo Machiavelli. At the end of his most famous book, the Prince, he calls for the liberation of Italy from barbarian domination. But this isn't really probably calling for the unification of Italy. It's the fact that a divided Italy is very vulnerable to invasion. So from the late 15th century, when a French king, Charles VIII, invades Italy, there is a quite strong sense in Italy that division makes it vulnerable to foreign attack by so called Ultramontani people from across the Alps. And people think about how to cope with this politically, but also culturally. But it really kicks off in my mind with the French Revolution and then with a series of invasions by French revolutionary armies in the 1790s, culminating when a young Corsican general, Napoleoni Buonaparte. And really culturally, he's Corsican, which means that culturally he's much more Italian than he is French. Leads the French Armee d'italie and starts really overturning the political system. And that begins a process that lasts until the end of the Napoleonic wars, of constant French penetration into Italy. So it's a new series of foreign invasions. And that does two things. On the one hand, Napoleon's satellite states. And remember that Turin and Florence and Rome actually become part of France. They're technically part of France under Napoleon. But there's the Kingdom of Italy, which is Lombardy and Venetia. In the south, there's the Kingdom of Naples, which is under first his brother and then his brother in law. These places are subjected to French rule. Troops are pulled out for them, for example, tens of thousands of Italians die in the 1812 invasion of Russia. People are taxed very heavily, but at the same time there's an awful lot of progress. Jews aren't kept in ghettos anymore. There's a massive attack on the wealth of the Church, there's a more efficient administration, there's standardised laws, standardised weights and measures. So people see the benefits of greater unification. They also get quite angry some of the time about foreign domination. And that really triggers a debate about what the future of Italy should be. And then you get the Congress of Vienna and Italy gets divided up again. And so it seems to be a bit of a step back for many Italians, better educated Italians. Many Italians are absolutely delighted that they're paying lower taxes and aren't being conscripted into Napoleon's armies. So there's that sort of ambiguous, double sided nature of that period. And that's really, I think, when you begin to get well educated Italians debating in much more energetic terms about what the future of Italy should be.

[David Lavin]

Yeah. That leads me on to a question that was sent in by Louis P. Leu. Did unification enjoy popular support from the Italian people? So you've kind of hinted there that certain sections of the Italian peninsula like the idea of, of unification. Does that apply to the entire population?

[Advertiser 2]

Well, this is a really big historical debate and historians really don't agree on it. I mean some historians say this is very much a bottom up movement. People see the benefits of unification. People feel quite Italian people are genuinely enthusiastic about unification. And many people would argue that say the 1848, 49 revolutions in the middle of the century show this massive popular support for the idea of being ital. My feeling is that the vast majority of Italians didn't wake up in the morning thinking, oh, I'm Italian, I want to get rid of my Austrian or Bourbon or Papal ruler. There's quite often a lot of affection for these rulers, certainly amongst the popular classes and there's a very strong sense of local identity that most people in Venice spoke Venetian, in Palermo spoke Palermitano, in Turin they spoke either Piedmontese or French even. Probably, you know, the most famous of all Italian 19th century authors, Alessandro Manzoni, whose most famous novel, the Betrothed, when he first wrote that novel in Italian and It's set in 17th century Lombardy, he had to use a French Italian dictionary looking up the words in French to find what the proper Italian was. And he had to go and live in Florence with Italian as a language, basically his Florentine. He had to go and live in Florence for A while to learn Florentine so he could rewrite it in what he called Italian. So even amongst the elites, there's not this sort of really strong sense of, you know, oh, my natural feeling is first and foremost to be Italian. I think really we're talking about an elite phenomenon now. That doesn't mean that there aren't members of the popular classes who get caught up in it. And I think what you have there is often people wanting change and they're looking around for an ideological hook to hang their desire. We pay taxes that are too high, we don't like the penal system, we don't think that the government is good. When there's a famine and they get grumpy and they latch onto something to justify their political position, what it is is a discontent with the present situation and you attach yourself to something else. And I think nationalism offered an opportunity for that.

[David Lavin]

Right. I just want to make this really clear. When we get to the mid 19th century, can you paint a picture of what Italy looked like politically on the eve of the campaign for unification, really picking up momentum. And how many states are we talking about here? And which were the dominant ones?

[Advertiser 2]

Okay, so in the north east of Italy you have the kingdom of Lombardi Venetia, and since the fall of Napoleon, that has been ruled by the Austrians, by the Habsburgs, as part of the Habsburg Empire. It's got its own institutions, it's got its own laws. It's not fully integrated in the Habsburg Empire, but the Austrian Emperor is its ruler. There's a viceroy who flits between Milan and Venice, which are equal capitals and is under Habsburg rule. If you move westwards, you have the Kingdom of Sardinia, Piedmont. The Dukes of Savoy in the early 18th century had briefly become kings of Sicily. Sicily had been swapped for Sardinia and they kept their royal title. So they've got. Sardinia is underpopulated, it's very, very poor. They have their hereditary lands of Piedmont, which extend in this period into what is today France. So places like Chambery or Nice were actually part of these lands. And they have a big French speaking population. In fact, the elites often do speak French by preference. And after the Napoleonic wars, they also get the former maritime Republic of Genoa. So a coastal area which traditionally doesn't really see eye to eye with Turin. So that's across the north. Then in the centre you have, by this stage, Lucca has ceased to be independent. So you have the Duchy of Parma and the Grand Duchy of Tuscany. And the Grand Duchy of Tuscany is also under a Habsburg Grand Duke. So A relative of the Austrian emperor. And that's usually considered the most progressive place in Italy, probably the fairest form of government, pretty much the only place in Europe at this time with no capital punishment, for example, directly to the south of that, you have the Papal states, which is the temporal kingdom, if you like, of the pope. So you have. The pope is in a sense an elected monarch. The cardinals elect him, but he is an absolute ruler of the papal states. And how the papal states are ruled depends very much on who the pope is. So it can be quite progressive and it can be the most reactionary, backward looking, almost medieval state in Italy. And to the south, you have the kingdom of the Two Sicilies ruled and sometimes say they're sometimes called Spanish Bourbons. I think this is a bit misleading. It's a bit like calling Queen Victoria German. You know, they've been there since the early 18th century and they think of themselves as Neapolitan. So in the south of Italy, you have the kingdom of the Two Sicilies with Naples as the capital, ruling Sicily, which is always rebelling. The Sicilians don't really like being ruled from Naples. So there's this patchwork of different states. And one of the things I would stress is that even within individual states, there's a lot of difference. If you take Sardinia, Piedmont, the nature of Sardinia is very, very different from the nature of Piedmont. It's not like each state is really clearly defined that the needs and aspirations of the people can be very, very different even within a single state, let alone the whole peninsula and its islands.

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[David Lavin]

Right? Also contacting us on Instagram Renboki Sangi wonders if you can introduce us to to the figure of Giuseppe Mazzini. He's an incredibly important personality in the rise of the cause of unification, isn't he? I mean, what role did he play?

[Advertiser 2]

Well, Mazzini is an interesting figure. The old way of looking at Italian unification tends to emphasize four people, basically that Count Camillo Benzo di Cavour is the brains behind Italian unification. I'd query that. Giuseppe Garibaldi is the sword, he's the great warrior. And I think there's a fair amount of truth in that. Although I'd also critique that. Vittorio Manuele ii, of course is the first king of Italy and the clue to that is that he's the second. So he thinks he just conquers Italy because he's really the second of Piedmont, but he carries on keeping that title. And Giuseppe Mazzini is somehow the soul. He's the sort of spiritual guide of Italy. Now, Giuseppe Mazzini is born 1805. So if you think about these people, Mazzini is born in 1805, Garibaldi in 1807, Cavour in 1810. They're all born during the Napoleonic period. And he's born in Genoa, which has been, you know, it becomes directly annexed to France. And his parents are really important because they sort of sum up what Mazzini is because his dad is a pro Jacobin. He's quite a radical, but he's essentially a collaborator with the French. His mother is very religious, but she's of the Jansenist branch of Catholicism, which is quite austere. And it's very much about your personal relationship with God and it's very much about being spiritual. It's not about the sort of big baroque, post Tridentine sort of splendour of the Catholic Church or lots of giving to charity even. It's a much more internal thing. And Mazzini in a sense inherits his dad's radicalism, revolutionary radicalism even, and his mum's spirituality. And he gets involved in a political movement. The Carbonari, who are secret society, periodically get involved in conspiracies against the status quo in the aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars. And eventually he's captured and sent to prison for this. A friend informs on him, and when he's let out, he goes into exile. Now, his real interests, I think, are initially almost more literary than political. He's a really interesting literary critic and writes about Goethe and writes about Dante and things like this. But he becomes involved in politics and he develops a democratic republicanism, basically. So it's pretty radical. It's drawing heavily on the more radical elements of the French Revolution. And he begins to believe passionately in the nation. But one of the things I think about Mazzini that's important is he spends most of his life in exile, in Switzerland, in France, in England. You can still see his house he used to live in in Clerkenwell, this little plaque on the wall, and mixing with Italian exiles, but also mixing with other radical democrats. For example, he knows Marx and Engels. Marx and Engels absolutely despise him, incidentally. They think he's useless. But his view is basically, if you introduce democracy within the nation state, that will solve most of the world's ills. That's a bit of an exaggeration, I think. His real importance, well, it's twofold. One is that he inspires Garibaldi, who I think is much more important, and two is that he's a big contributor to a political debate, pushing a more sort of democratic, revolutionary idea, which has a brief moment in 1848-49 when he leads the Roman Republic and seems to be quite successful administrator. But when that collapses and when he carries on trying to push insurrection. So in 1853 in Milan, in 1856 in Calabria, he's inspiring these people to take revolutionary action because he thinks we need blood martyrs fighting for the cause. I think it actually puts people off democratic radicalism, and they start thinking, oh, we might need unification, precisely to preempt democratic radicalism. We need a more measured form of unification. Who could possibly lead that? And they start looking after 1849 to Sardinia, Piedmont, because it's being pushed in a much more progressive fashion as a constitutional liberal regime with a thriving economy. And that's largely due to one man, Count Camillo Benzotti.

[David Lavin]

Now, you mentioned Gary Boldi there, David, and we clearly can't run a podcast on the Risorgimento without mentioning Gary Bolding. Going into a fair bit of detail, he's arguably the central figure in this entire movement and certainly the most romantic. So we've had a question in from Max Quigley asking what kind of man was Gary Boldi and how did he go about transforming the movement?

[Advertiser 2]

Well, I mean, Garibaldi seized the British imagination. The biggest crowds ever seen up until that date were in London in 1864 when he turned up when everyone came and, you know, he had supper with the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Prince of Wales and the Foreign Secretary and had sex with all sorts of upper class women and Irish Catholics threw bricks at him. But there were huge, huge, huge crowds gathered and he was an inspirational character, not just in Italy but across Europe and indeed in Latin America, where he spent 14 years in exile as a pirate and soldier, fighting in South American civil wars, basically as a sort of revolutionary radical. First and foremost. He was a sailor when he started out his time in Latin America. He learned to ride and to fight on land. A man of incredible bravery, which is part of the appeal. Very good looking, I mean, he's tall, he's broad shouldered, he's got this sort of slightly auburny coloured hair. No doubt about his brilliance. And having fought in, largely fought in Latin America for 14 years, when revolutions break out in Italy in 1848, he offers himself to the King of Piedmont and says, I can come and fight for you, King. Piedmont doesn't want a long haired, bearded radical running around with a sabre on horseback. Or indeed he thinks he might just use him for some naval engagements and decides no. And he sort of seeks around and he ends up fighting for the Roman Republic. The Pope has fled. Mazzini has effectively taken power in a triumvirate. But it's basically Mancini and he defends that Roman republic with incredible bravery. Before a French army comes sent by Louis Napoleon Bonaparte, the new president in France after a revolution in France. So the nephew of Napoleon and he tries to get to Venice, which is the last bit of Italy, where there's still a revolution going on. And en route, his Latin American wife Anita dies. All sorts of adventures and he becomes this incredibly heroic figure. I mean, he's heroic, there's no doubt he's heroic. He's a brilliant guerrilla fighter, incredible horseman. He inspires people by his valor. And I think the real importance is that in the 1850s this heroic radical figure switches from being Mazzini into saying, you know what, I'll throw my lot with anyone who's going to get unification. And he becomes actually personally friendly with the King of Piedmont. So Vitalio Emanuele II and Garibaldi actually get on with each other. They like each other. So in 1859, when there's a war over Lombardy, Venetia, he fights an important fringe campaign with a bunch of volunteers. And then in 1860, the real contribution is there's a revolution going on in Sicily, and with a handful of men, he lands and takes Sicily. And that's, in a sense, another story. But it's that incredible fact that with his thousand men, he liberates Sicily from Bourbon rule. It's a very complex story about why it works out. And becomes dictator of Sicily, declares himself dictator of Sicily, and is then able to put pressure on Piedmont. To actually unify more of Italy than the prime Minister Cavour wants is really, really important. That's the real significant contribution to my mind.

[David Lavin]

Now, I want to return to Garibaldi in a little while, but first, militarily, the resorgimenta was incredibly complex. There was a lot going on here. So. And this is quite a big ask, I appreciate. But in an attempt to kind of simplify things a bit, would you be able to pick out sort of five landmark moments in the military campaign for unification just to sort of help our listeners really, you know, sort of get their heads around what was going on here and sort of establish some kind of chronology?

[Advertiser 2]

Okay, so I think, first of all, we have to think about the 1848, 1849 wars. And with that, I would focus on the Piedmontese wars against Austria. And so Carlo Alberto, the king of Piedmont in 1848, declares war on the Austrians, and he's defeated badly at the Battle of Custoza in late July 48. And then he attempts a war again in the spring of 1849 and is defeated badly, although his army significantly outnumbers the Austrian, Austrian army, commanded by a sort of geriatric General Radezky, significantly outnumber them. They're defeated badly at Novara in March 1849. And what you have is the Piedmontese trying to annex the cause of Italian unification in order to further their own ambitions to rule Italy. Famously, in the 16th century, a Piedmontese duke, Duke of Savoy, had said that Italy was like an artichoke. You had to eat it bit by bit, and gradual annexation. And it's quite clear that at the back of the minds of the rulers of Piedmont, there's always this idea that they can't expand westward into France. So if they become more powerful, they're going to need to nick other bits of Italy. So they're piggybacking anti Austrian sentiment, nationalism, economic discontent, to try and use that unrest to expand. And in those two wars, 48 and 49, they get badly defeated on each occasion. And from that there's a sort of lesson learnt that maybe you need some foreign help. Basically, I'd say Then in 1859, Camillo de Cavour had in 1858 organised an alliance with Napoleon III, the nephew of Napoleon I. And the agreement is to attack and seize Lombardy, Venetia, so the Austrian controlled bit of northern Italy. And this is successful up to a point. So the two big battles are the Battle of Magenta in early June 1859 and the Battle of Solferino. And the important thing to think about these is they're French victories, they're not Italian victories. And Napoleon III decides the victories have been so bloody and awful and they're now facing attacking big Austrian fortifications. He pulls the French army out, he says, okay, we're making an armistice. Oddly enough, Cavour, who's supposed to be this genius, said, no, we've got to carry on fighting. If the Piedmontese had carried on fighting, Piedmont probably would have been wiped off the map and Italy might have never been united. And the King has the good sense to say, you know, no, we're not. And the generals say, no, we're not, we'll be defeated. You know, we've got Lombardy, let's leave it at that. But that's really important because that shatters Austrian dominance in the northeast of Italy. They've still got Venetia and Venice and Friuli up in the northeast, but they've been kicked out of Lombardy. And at the same time. And you can interpret this in different ways. You can interpret this with growing nationalism, with opportunism, with a fifth column of pro Piedmontese liberals, central Italy. So the north of the Papal States and Tuscany and Parma and the Duchy of Modena have all basically collapsed and pro Piedmontese provisional governments have taken over. So though that war of 1859, which is principally won by French intervention, it's not won by the Italians, actually enables this creation of a north and central Italian block, which becomes the focus of creating the new Italian nation state. I suppose the next stage is Garibaldi's attack on the south. So there's already a revolution going on in Sicily. There's almost always a bit of a revolution going on in Sicily because the Sicilians are very, very rebellious and they tend not to like, rule from Naples. And basically the Sicilians are prepared to have rule from almost anywhere else at the end of Napoleonic Wars. Quite a lot of them wanted to be annexed by the British Empire in 1848. Some of them talk about, can we become a state of the usa? They'll look for people onto anything to get rid of the Neapolitan Bourbons, if you like. And Garibaldi hijacks this rebellion, if you like, and arrives with about a thousand men. And in May 1860, he lands at Marsala. He can only land, incidentally, because the British have factories making Marsala wine there and they're bothered about the unrest and they've sent some gunboats there, and the Neapolitan navy can't sink Garibaldi's two boats because they're bothered they might end up fighting the British or damaging British factories. So he arrives and bizarrely, because his army is so small, the Bourbons don't take it very seriously. If he'd arrived with 10,000 men, they probably would have thrown their entire army in there and defeated him. So there's this 1860 campaign, first of all, the siege of Palermo, crossing the Straits of Messina and then taking Naples. And then there's the big battle on the River Volturno, when he defeats the Bourbon army and the Bourbon King runs and takes refuge in Gaeta. So by that stage, you've got the south of Italy united, and there's a terror. There's a terror in the north of Italy from Cavour, and the King, that Garibaldi, having got the south, might suddenly go back to being Mazzinian and he's got his army together, he might carry on marching north. So the Piedmontese regular army fights its way through the Papal States to block him off, and he meets the King and says, no, it's okay, you've got this. So 1848, 49 wars, Piedmontese lose, 1859 war, the French win. 1860, Garibaldi wins and then is blocked by, in a sense, his own allies marching on Rome. And then, I suppose, the final two big battles are 1866, a fairly unsuccessful campaign to get Venetia. In fact, the naval campaign is a disaster because the new Italian navy is really, really good and gets basically sunk by the tiny, rather bad Austrian navy because of appalling leadership. There's a bit of a national shame. The actual fighting in Venetia is pretty fierce and inconclusive, but the important thing is that the Austrians are defeated in Prussia and the Prussians insist that the Austrians give Venetia to their Italian allies. So really it's the Prussian victory, not the Italian victory, and Rome is finally Annexed again because of Prussian victory against France. The French pull out their garrison that had been protecting the Pope and the Italians seize Rome.

[David Lavin]

So is that the moment when you could say unification was finally achieved?

[Advertiser 2]

I think the key date in a sense is March 1861, when they establish the Kingdom of Italy. When they say this is the Kingdom of Italy, that's basically saying we're attempting to unite all the Italians under one flag. And there are problems. The big problem is the so called Roman question, because Rome is defended by a French garrison and Cavour doesn't want a war with France because they'll lose it. And when he dies, his successors don't want a war with France. So they're always trying to say, oh, we don't want Rome. Really, Garibaldi is the exception here. Garibaldi, of course, keeps saying we want Rome. So I'd say 1870, yes, it's completed the acquisition of Rome, the capital of the old Roman Empire, the centre of the Catholic Church. When they finally say, actually, you know, sorry, the Pope is not going to be a temporal ruler anymore, that's really important. But so is the declaration of the Kingdom of Italy in 1861. And when the British recognised that Kingdom of Italy, that's really important because without British diplomatic support, without French military support, Italy would have never been created. Without British diplomatic support, it could always have been attacked again by the Austrians, maybe with help from the Spanish, who don't like the Bourbons being ousted in the south. So there are all sorts of possibilities that international support, Anglo, French international support is what enables Italy to remain as a new kingdom.

[David Lavin]

And is that part of Garibaldi's genius that he was able to sort of craft this romantic image and manipulate media to win international support? I mean, how key was he to sort of rallying Britons and French people to the cause?

[Advertiser 2]

Yeah, I mean, Garibaldi. There's a temptation to see Garibaldi as a brave bloke on horseback. He is very, very shrewd. I mean, going back to the great historian of modern Italy, British historian of modern Italy was Dennis Mack Smith and his first book was cavour and Garibaldi 1860. And he showed that Garibaldi quite frequently rang rings around Cavour. Absolutely. He's a very, very smart guy. So he's politically astute. He's always pushing to try and use, in a sense, Italianification to get some concessions from the government. He knows the government is conservative. He's not. He's very, very canny that he's also Has a very, very good marketing department. I mean, you know, Alexandre Duma, the Three Musketeers. Guy writes a biography of him as a personal friend. So he's very, very good at taking advantage of Mazzini's network of English supporters. I mean, Mazzini is really, really popular in England, too, and so using that to sort of market himself. And of course, he appeals the British hugely because he is quite clearly an enemy of the papacy. And he plays on an awful lot of British anti Catholic sentiment, which is both ingrained in British culture and is sort of intensified by things that are going on in Ireland. So he uses all sorts of connections. He certainly uses his sex appeal, and boy, does he like women, and boy, to women like him. So there's a sort of appeal as the great romantic hero, which, apart from anything, gets people to give money. You know, he gets funding for a lot of his ventures from inside and outside Italy from people who are inspired by him. And I think. I mean, there's a great book by Lucy Ryle that came out in 2008, I think, Garibaldi, Invention of a Hero, which also really picks up on this, that, you know, we can emphasize the undoubted ability on the battlefield, which had its limitations in 1862 when he tries to seize Rome and is stopped by the Piedmontese army in 1867. You could argue Garibaldi is one of the very few people who's actually defeated by the papal army. You know, it's not always a story of victory, but even in those defeats, he's heroized. You know, he gets shot in the foot. His critics say that he must have shot himself in the foot because so few rifle rounds were fired at him. But I think that's probably not true. But he gets shot in the foot at Aspromont in 1862. And again, you get English ballads about Garibaldi, the hero of Aspromonte, being wounded for the cause of Italian unification. So there's also a broad radical left liking for him at a time in Britain when, for example, Chartism has failed and parliamentary reform looks as if it's not going to happen. People are looking around for something that they can attach their support to. And while things are going badly in domestic politics, they say, well, but at least we have Garibaldi uniting Italy and being the popular hero in Italy.

[David Lavin]

Great stuff. Thank you, David. Right. I'm quite conscious that time is ticking, but would quite like to talk briefly about the aftermath of the Risorgimento. What sort of Italy emerged from unification politically, what did it look like and how powerful was it?

[Advertiser 2]

Okay, well domestically I think it's true to say people are quite unhappy, particularly in the South. Between 1861 and 1865, there is almost constant rebellion in the south and attempts to impose standardised laws. Even simple things like getting rid of the silver currency that was used in the south and replacing it with paper money. Conscripting people of the army, there's the so called Grande Brigantajo, the great Bricantage. And really, really savage repression in the South. It's much debated to this day. People talk about the extreme neo Bourbons these days. Say there was a genocide in the south, which is of course not true. But there's a lot of very, very brutal military campaigning to suppress southern separatism. Southern army carries on fighting for much longer than people realize. It's still fighting in March 1861. People don't just give up. There's a big siege in Gaeta where thousands of people die. So it's not easy going easy in that sense. It's not easy in the sense that the new constitution. Every adult male has been given the right to vote in plebiscites to legitimate unification. Everyone apparently votes yes, these are clearly rigged. Just statistically it couldn't happen that much. But you've said everyone's got the right to vote, to legitimate it. And then the actual electoral system gives almost no one the vote. It's only wealthy literate taxpayers who get the vote. So people are then excluded, but even then half of them don't vote because the Pope says, hang on, I've lost my land, so you should do that. So the division between people who obey the Pope and people who don't is a real internal division you get during the course of the late 19th century. Economic problems that lead to mass immigration. We all know about the emigration to the United States, but there's emigration to Germany and to France. Probably the biggest immigration is to Brazil and Argentina. The majority of Argentina's population are in fact Italian in origin, so it doesn't really speak of a successful economy.

[David Lavin]

And what happened to Gari Bowley after unification?

[Advertiser 2]

Well, he sort of pootles along. I mean in 1870 when Rome is taken, you know, remember he tried to take Rome in 1862 and 1867. He's actually fighting for the French against the Germans. God, when did he die? 1882 I think. Garibaldi dies, he becomes old. He served as a parliamentarian, he becomes a sort of institutionalised national hero. Garibaldi becomes the one national hero you can't have a go at. You can say Vittorio Emanuele ii. Well, he wasn't really an Italian patriot, he was just a Piedmontese expansionist. You can say that Mazzini was too dangerous a radical and didn't ever really achieve very much. But you can't criticize Garibaldi. That doesn't mean that people don't. That you know that today he's sort of vilified by the Italian separatist movements. There's of Venetian separatists don't like him, the southern Neo Bourbons don't like him. But broadly speaking, Garibaldi becomes this one person who left and right likes. So if you think about in the Second World War, the communist partisans were called the Garibaldi Brigades. But Garibaldi is also an absolute hero of the Fascists. Unless you're dealing with people who begin to aspire to separatism. Garibaldi is the good guy. And you only have to wander into the centre of almost Italian city and you'll see a statue of him or a Corso Garibaldi, a street named after him that you know, little villages have plaques. Garibaldi once slept here. He really is the person who can be seen as pulling Italy together. And interestingly, there's a big monument to him in Rome that used to stare down at the Vatican. And when the Lateran treaties were agreed in the later 1920s between Mussolini and the Pope, in which the Pope finally recognised the existence of a united Italy, they had to turn that statue round. So it wasn't being provocative to the Pope anymore. So, you know, even then you need to make Garibaldi's the figure who pulls.

[David Lavin]

Everyone together and very finally, David, how is the Risorgimento remembered in Italy today?

[Advertiser 2]

I think it's for some Italians it remains divisive. I've got lots of friends in what was 10 years ago, the quite powerful Venetian separatist movement. And some of their anger isn't about that. They really want an independent Venetia and Friuli or the recreation of the Ovnish Republic. It's the way in which the story of Italian unification is taught in schools and still a pretty positive spin put on it. In the south you'll get lots of people at festivals, popular music festivals, tarantella festivals and things, dressing up in brigands costumes. They're the people who fought against unification. And I think Italy is still a country that has intense regional divides, intense economic inequalities. And I think there's a surprisingly level of grassroots feeling that's hostile to it. On the other hand you have in Italian politics at the moment both the left that is scared of separatism and a right wing coalition in power and with Meloni, someone whose party was originally descended from the fascist party who massively pushed the idea of Italian nationalism. So I think the Risorgimento becomes a sort of contested ground in which Italians can play out their current political anxieties which may not necessarily be directly descended from that but it's an area which still generates a remarkable amount of acrimony. Not everyone wanders around and likes those statues de Garibaldi or Mazzini or Vittorio Emanuele. I know that friends of mine in the south of Italy have been campaigning to have the names of streets changed because they celebrate heroes of the unification who they think were oppressors of the south.

[Advertiser 1]

That was David Lavin, associate professor at the University of Nottingham. He, he was speaking to Spencer Mizzen. Thanks for listening. This podcast was produced by Daniel Kramer Arden.